
Daily |
So, over the years I've played both 3.5 and Pathfinder rather extensively. However, our latest attempt has me feeling uneasy. Let me set it up:
We rolled for archetypes. I rolled ranged I went archery over caster.
We rolled for stats. My sheet isn't in front of me, but my rolls are 14, 14, 14, 12, 12, 10.
Starting level of 8.
Now, here is my dilemma. I've never started this high before, or have even reached this level before (seems most DMs where I'm from like starting at 1 and doing slow development) and it has me.... overwhelmed.
Nor have I ever done an archery build before. I went Half-Elf Ranger with the following stat distribution:
Str: 14
Dex: 18 (14 + 2 racial + 2 leveling)
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 14
I know, why put anything in Charisma? Well, I was told by a friend Arcane Archer was the way to go for DPR and crowd control, but after researching the topic, I've decided full Ranger beat it out in terms of usefulness.
But I've been given the option, using those same rolls, to rebuild him. So, I'd really like so help on not gimping myself. We will, more than likely, only make it to level 12. Knowing that, I'd like the ideal build for the levels 8-12, nothing further. Starting with 33k we can spend no more than a third our gold on a single item.
From my research, both Zen Archer and Fighter Archer look great, but based on our campaign rules as well as starting level and estimated final level reach, I'm not sure what the most ideal build would be.
We have a melee tanky Hound Master (custom made from a Cavalier, but ultimately ended up being pretty identical, so I've been told) and a Rogue with a focus on utility. Our fourth has yet to be found.
So, is anyone up for helping the new guy? As an added note, race can be changed (went Half-Elf for Arcane Archer) so do not feel obligated to use any particular race.
Thanks again, Paizo Community!!
EDIT: Boots of Speed are allowed, even though they're over by a grand.

demontroll |

Zen Archer mostly builds itself. Keep in mind the Rapid Shot and Multishot feats won't stack with their Flurry of Arrows.
You will want wisdom as your highest stat, as Zen Archers may use that instead of DEX for their archery attacks, and WIS adds to your Will save, AC, CMD, and Ki pool. After WIS, you want STR, CON, DEX. Both INT and CHA can be low or dumped.
Bonus feats you want:
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Improved Precise Shot (at 6th)
At 9th level take Clustered Shots for your feat.
As a zen archer, you get a lot of free feats like Perfect Strike, Weapon Specialization, Weapon Focus, and Point Blank Master. So you can spend your feats from level 1,3,5,7 on whatever suits your fancy, and they don't need to be archery related.
Spending Ki will use up your swift action, so it won't work with Arcane Strike. The extra attack from Ki does stack with Haste.
Get an Adaptive Bow for +1000gp, as it will allow you to use the bow at full STR if you get a STR buff, and without a penalty if your STR gets drained.
Carry a backup bow, as Sunder or Disarm would ruin your day, otherwise. Also lots of arrows and quivers. And spare bow strings.
Monks also have the best saving throws in the game.

soupturtle |
Ranger archer is very good, but so is zen archer. But there's no real reason to abandon ranger if you like the idea of playing one - an archery ranger is very good. Fighter archer is worse than ranger archer at levels 6-10, because rangers can get improved precise shot at level 6, and fighters only at 11. That feat is really important, as cover is a big deal to archers. So I'd just stick with the ranger, if I were you.
Your ability scores are also decent, but you ought to swap your mental scores around: make it wis 14, int 12, cha 10. That lets you cast all your spells, and improves the all important will save.
Choosing feats is pretty easy for an archer, as there is a clear set of feats that strongly improve archery. You want point blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot, manyshot, deadly aim, improved precise shot and clustered shots as soon as possible, plus boon companion to make your animal companion full strength. That's lots of feats, so its easiest to pick human as your race for the bonus feat. It's still one feat more than you can have at level 8, so delay clustered shots until 9, and you have all the tools of a very efficient and deadly archer.
As for equipment: boots of speed is a very good plan, as extra attacks are invaluable, and you don't have anyone who can cast haste in your party (yet). Beyond that, just get a +2 adaptive longbow, a +2 belt of dexterity, a cloak of resistance, and some light or medium armor. Plus a handy haversack off course, and some quivers and lots of arrows. Make them cold iron arrows (because it hardly costs anything extra), and buy weapon blanch to deal with other types of DR.

BretI |

Efficient Quiver may be more important than Handy Haversack, I would be inclined towards getting both.
Assuming the Efficient Quiver, carry an extra masterwork bow just in case.
What do you want the character to do outside of archery? That is really what should be the deciding factor between Zen Archer or Ranger Archer.
I would like to second the advice that default arrows be cold iron. You may also want some smoke arrows and if there is any chance you want to capture someone alive grab some blunt arrows.

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First things first—no need to worry about effectiveness. Archery is one of the most effective builds in PF and it's hard to go wrong just grabbing feats. Here's a quick ran build that'll do great.
01 Point-blank shot
02 (B) Precise shot
03 Rapid shot
05 ???
06 (B) Impr. precise shot
07 Clustered shots
09 ???
10 (B) Manyshot

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Take the 14 in Cha and stick it in Int instead. I know, intelligence does not the slightest thing for you as a Ranger according to any guide, but high Int rangers are a lot of fun. You've got 6 skill points normally, this bumps you up to 8. You say the rogue is doing utility? Leave that to him. Put a point in perception every level, and then the other seven in knowledge and linguistics. You don't have anyone in your party right now covering those bases, and there is so much roleplay fun to be had with characters with maxed out knowledges.

Puna'chong |

Paladin archers can also be very effective. Smite Evil is wicked when you've got 5+ pointy objects flying through the air. Inquisitor archers are also fairly decent, and they get a good suite of abilities. And if you're starting at higher level with a pool of cash you can just crank up your Wisdom and grab a Guided comp. longbow. An Urban Barbarian can also do archery halfway decently, with what amounts to a +4 to Dex or Strength if you need it instead of the normal rage (which you can still do, by the way). I'd just go with a ranger in this case, though, unless you want to really push some sort of switch-hitter thing with the Beast Totem line of rage powers.
Also, Deadly Aim is pretty fun. Since you're throwing out so many attacks adding a base damage bonus to them is how you get the most out of archery. Rangers do this with their favored enemy and strength bows, and they have a lot of support in that regard with their spells too (gravity bow, for instance). And if you aren't starting up for the next couple weeks or so, definitely see if you can't get ahold of the upcoming Advanced Class Guide. Hunter looks promising, as they get druid AND ranger spells starting at level 1, and they get a full-advancement animal companion. That could pair nicely with your Hound Master =)

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So, I do find myself with another pressing matter when looking at the Ranger: My companion.
Originally I found the leopard to be the most attractive, was this a wise decision? Furthermore, I am not exactly sure how one levels an animal companion, nor what is imporant to give to them.
If you're not sure, drop the companion. Who needs the extra complication? Sure, it's a power boost, but there's no need to try everything at once when you're just starting back.
:-)

sspitfire1 |

Perfect timing for you last question, Daily! I just posted this:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rcw3?The-Verdict-is-in-Large-Wolf-versus-Small -Cat
I would add, if you are going with a Ranger, think about whether you want to be a heavy hitter in combat or help others hit heavy.
My first PFS Ranger (now level 12) is well loved at the tables for his combination of bow and companion. He has a +1 Greater Designating Long Bow (grants +4 to hit and +6 to damage to allies attacking your target in melee!) and a nice beefy wolf with the Body Guard feat (see the wolf build from the above post). My Ranger also has 1 level of Rogue and 1 level of Druid (Menhir Savant), making him an excellent out-of-combat utility character as well. With a +27 Perception modifier- before adding in Favored Terrain and Favored Enemy- he can spot just about anything anywhere anytime, an invaluable thing to have in a party. Gale is a half-elf with his Bonus Skill Focus feat in Perception.
Lastly, if you did not shuffle your mental stats as soupturtle recommended, I would do that. It is your best build with the Ranger.

Daily |
I've seen the Roc suggested for flying, some suggesting Death from Above with it as well as Far Shot for sniping from the clouds. Is that better than this infamous Wolf I keep hearing about? Apparently it has insane AC, is fantastic at flanking, and is able to trip.
EDIT: Reading the guide now, sspitfire1! I posted before refreshing, ha.

Puna'chong |

Death from Above only applies while charging, if I remember correctly, and the bonuses for higher ground are only in melee. Wolves are a good choice because they trip opponents for free sometimes off a bite, but this can actually be kind of a curse in disguise: at ranged you get a penalty (I think -4) against prone targets. Big cats, on the other hand, get nasty at higher levels when they pounce and rake and have solid to-hit with everything. Cats also get more natural attacks than wolves, and I think the default cat (leopard) gets a trip attack as well, at the cost of damage dice.
I generally avoid animal companions when I can though. It's more than I want to keep track of, and making rolls for Handle Animal always gets handwaived.

Daily |
A very good point. But would the bonuses of flying not outweigh the usefulness of a grounded companion? I really have no idea the legitimacy of flying archery but it would keep a lot of things out of my way as well as help me getting where I should be, as well as spotting. I see pros and cons to both, and in my head, come out equal >.<

Puna'chong |

Well, the Sable Company Marine archetype gets a flying mount (hippogriff only) at level 5 at the cost of your first favored terrain and the ability to get any other sort of nature bond. If flying is how you want to go, that's a pretty straightforward way to play it and most DMs who will allow flying mounts are, or should be, willing to waive the fluff stuff if you don't want to actually be a Marine from Korvosa. Flying is useful, but as a DM I kind of hate it because it trivializes certain encounters for one player while the others have to slog through. It alienates those who can't fly sometimes, and I hate mapping out flying opponents. And as with any mounted build, once you get into a dungeon you lose out on half of your abilities and strengths, so be sure you'll actually be able to use the mount before building around it.
That said, it is very effective, and there aren't actually any penalties for flying mounted archery that are above and beyond normal mounted archery. If that's how you want to go you'll need to build a little differently, with a few of your feats needing to go towards reducing your penalties while your mount is taking full move actions. You may also want Far Shot so you can try to be as far away as possible from spells targeting your mount (a sleeping hippogriff is a dead ranger). Paladins can also pull off the mounted archer concept pretty well, as can samurai. Cavaliers are ok archers, but usually less capable than paladins because their single-target "burn-'em-down!" ability doesn't bypass DR, which can seriously neuter archery builds since they rely on multiple smaller attacks hitting. Ronin samurai have pretty crazy survivability, however, and they get weapon focus and weapon specialization like a fighter, which is bonus damage for your bow!

Puna'chong |

Yeah, no problem! I actually have a sample inquisitor one of my players is using in my current campaign (this is the level 8 version for him, and incidentally he's a half-elf too for the alternate racial that lets him get weapon familiarity with the longbow). The gear WBL is a little lower on my HeroLab version because we use it mostly to generate math for us then write in everything else, so his character does have an assortment of wands and other miscellany that I just didn't throw on there. I did swap out his normal point-buy with your generated stats and put them where I thought was appropriate. It's mostly just raw stats:
Half-Elf Inquisitor (Iconoclast) 8 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 38; Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Combat 0)
LG Medium humanoid (elf, human)
Hero Points 1
Init +7; Senses low-light vision; Perception +22
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 21, touch 13, flat-footed 19 (+7 armor, +2 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 72 (8d8+8)
Fort +9, Ref +7, Will +13; +2 vs. enchantments, +2 vs. effects from a magic item
Immune sleep
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 20 ft.
Ranged +1 guided composite longbow +10/+5 (1d8+6/×3)
Special Attacks bane (8 rounds/day)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 8th; concentration +8)
. . At will—detect magic
Inquisitor (Iconoclast) Spells Known (CL 8th; concentration +13):
. . 3rd (3/day)—dispel magic, hunter's eye{super}APG{/super}, prayer
. . 2nd (5/day)—align weapon, blistering invective{super}UC{/super} (DC 17), lesser restoration, weapon of awe{super}APG{/super} (DC 17)
. . 1st (6/day)—cure light wounds, divine favor, litany of sloth{super}UC{/super}, true strike, wrath{super}APG{/super}
. . 0 (at will)—create water, detect magic, guidance, light, read magic, resistance
. . Domains Animal, Feather
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 20, Cha 10
Base Atk +6; CMB +8; CMD 21
Feats Coordinated Shot, Deadly Aim, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Target of Opportunity[UC]
Skills Bluff +4, Climb +3, Diplomacy +7, Disguise +4, Fly +4, Heal +10, Intimidate +15, Knowledge (arcana) +5, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +5, Knowledge (nature) +5, Knowledge (planes) +6, Knowledge (religion) +6, Perception +22, Sense Motive +20, Spellcraft +10, Stealth +10; Racial Modifiers +6 Perception
Languages Common, Elven, Varisian
SQ cunning initiative, dispelling attack, elf blood, eyes of the hawk, hero points, judgement 3/day, shake effects, solo tactics, stern gaze, track +4
Other Gear +1 mountain pattern armor, +1 guided composite longbow, amulet of natural armor +1, cloak of quick reflexes +2/+3, headband of inspired wisdom +2, ring of protection +1, 19,000 gp
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
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Bane (+2 / 2d6, 8 rounds/day) (Su) - 0/8
Dispelling Attack (1/day) (Sp) - 0/1
Second Judgement (3/day) (Su) - 0/3
Teamwork Feat (change 7/day) - 0/7
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Special Abilities
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Animal Companion Link (Ex) You have a link with your Animal Companion.
Bane (+2 / 2d6, 8 rounds/day) (Su) Make the weapon you are holding a bane weapon.
Cloak of quick reflexes +2/+3 Spend 1 power as immediate action to reroll failed Reflex save.
Coordinated Shot Your ranged attacks take advantage of your ally's positioning.
Prerequisite: Point-Blank Shot.
Benefit: If your ally with this feat is threatening an opponent and is not providing cover against your ranged attacks against
Deadly Aim -2/+4 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Detect Magic (At will) (Sp) At 2nd level, an iconoclast gains the ability to detect magic at will. This ability replaces detect alignment.
Dispelling Attack (1/day) (Sp) At 5th level, once per day as a standard action, an iconoclast can make a melee or ranged attack against an opponent, and if she hits, she can affect that opponent as if she had cast dispel magic, using the targeted dispel option. If she misse
Elf Blood Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Eyes of the Hawk (+4 Perception/+2 Init.) (Su) +2 Initiative during a surprise round.
Hero Points (1) Hero Points can be spent at any time to grant a variety of bonuses.
Inquisitor (Iconoclast) Domain (Feather) Add Fly to your list of class skills. In addition, whenever you cast a spell that grants you a fly speed, your maneuverability increases by one step (up to perfect).
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Point-Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Second Judgement (3/day) (Su) Variable bonuses increase as the combat continues.
Shake Effects (Ex) At 1st level, an iconoclast gains a +2 bonus on all saving throws against effects that come from a magic item. This ability replaces monster lore.
Share Spells with Companion (Ex) Can cast spells with a target of "you" on animal companion, as touch spells.
Solo Tactics (Ex) Count Teamwork feats as if your allies had the same ones.
Target of Opportunity When an ally hits with a ranged attack, you may make an attack as an immediate action
Track +4 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
It's pretty nasty. Note how many different bonuses he gets just from judgments and spells. With just bonuses from his judgments (+hit and +damage), feats, guided weapon, and one spell he can cast 6 times a day he's coming in at 3 attacks in a round (+10/+10/+5) for 1d8+15. He can also ignore concealment against one foe (Hunter's Eye) and he can align his bow to take down outsiders. AND once/day he can try to make a ranged attack to dispel magic, with his Iconoclast ability, which he's used to great effect to shoot down flying dudes and be a wizard-slayer. He also has a hawk familiar for scouting.
Tons you can do with archery! Have fun!