so I had this idea but im not sure if its ok to use. If a pc is talking to an npc and the pc rolls a sense motive and the npc rolls to for a bluff then pc is going to be suspicious from the metagame knowledge. so is it ok to roll ahead of time or not?
Yeah.
That's one of the few times I support behind-the-screen rolling.
Passive checks like that, Perception vs Stealth, Bluff vs Sense Motive (except when the PC says he's using it first), etc. just roll that behind the screen or ahead of time.
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Rolling the Bluff ahead of time is fine for most groups. Rolling the PC's Sense Motive isn't.
Other options include rolling in behind a screen, and doing so whether the NPC is lying or not.
Either option involves the players trusting you to not fudge things (or to only fudge things as appropriate in your specific group), but if the players don't trust the GM, well, your game is gonna have problems no matter what.
To minimize the possibility of issues, you could ask the group about doing this in general, and see what they have to say.
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It is a good idea.
Have your PCs write down a number of bonuses to things you may have to roll.
Examples: Perception, Sense Motive, Will Save.
This way, they know, that there may be times when you are rolling, and not them.
Now, you will still want to have them roll for these things, when it makes sense to do so, and fortify trust with them.
Some things, are just difficult to not to metagame.
Sometimes, they don't even realize it.
the only checks for them I plan to roll is the occasional will save cause if I ask them randomly to role they will get all paranoid and you shouldn't know if you e being scryed on. and I will next session asked them to make sure and to avoid a potential blow up, I do have one rather high strung player. this is my first campaign and I wanted some outside opinions so thank you
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I make note of my PC's sense motives using take10, and use it for my npc's as well. if they don't ask about the skill i will drop a hint if their SM is higher then an NPC who is using the take10 Bluff. If they ask about the skill, i have them roll. So if they aren't suspicious, their character stats can clue them in, but if they have a hunch, they can still ask/try.
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I roll checks/saves/etc. for my PCs whenever I feel it's reasonable for me to do so. Most often, these are times like Sense Motive, Disable Device, Perception, Fortitude or Will saves. Basically, it's anytime that their characters shouldn't or wouldn't know they were making a roll (passive checks) or anytime they might get too much information from knowing the result of their roll. In fact, I keep a posty note on my side of the screen that has all the PCs' roll modifiers for Fort, Ref, Will, Perception, Sense, & Disable. I don't even have to ask for their bonus and inadvertently tip them off.
-Skeld
I will defiantly ask for some other numbers besides the will save
so I had this idea but im not sure if its ok to use. If a pc is talking to an npc and the pc rolls a sense motive and the npc rolls to for a bluff then pc is going to be suspicious from the metagame knowledge. so is it ok to roll ahead of time or not?
I make it a habit to roll opposed checks for everything the players ask to roll against. They want to make an active perception check? No problem. Oh, you want to sense motive? Sure!
If you do it every time and you let the players know that, then you don't have to worry about making rolls only when someone is lying, or the is someone to find, any other opposed roll metagame nonsense.
I sometimes ask my players to roll a number of d20s in advance and write them down in order, I will then use those rolls as needed for any results where I don't want to tip them off to the results or situation. Just apply the appropriate bonus they have for the needed skill check.
The only thing with this is that you need to keep them where you can't see the list. It encourages DM metagaming to know what the next set of player rolls are.
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I have the bad guys take 10 a LOT. So, the player rolls sense motive and I don't roll any dice, I just took 10. Or don't care because the npc isn't lying. Make sure you tell the players that you do this.
As for character rolls you prefer for the players not to know about, often I'll have the player roll a d20 and ask to see their character sheet. The player doesn't know if they just rolled a will save, a perception check, a knowledge check, or if I'm just screwing with them. If the players metagame a lot I call for meaningless rolls a lot more often
I may try the random rolling, I have a few players that it would make so paranoid
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I have a nervous tic which causes me to roll dice when I'm GMing, particularly when I'm reading&holding an IC conversation, but also when I'm waiting for players to decide what to do. Players never know if I'm rolling a save or a check or just rolling for no reason. I do have to retire a d20 about once/month when I'm GMing but otherwise no significant downsides to having the tic.
Wait, ... You roll the die so much that you wear them out?
Holy crap! Do you use a dice tray lined with sandpaper?
Rolling the Bluff ahead of time is fine for most groups. Rolling the PC's Sense Motive isn't.
I would like to point out that the rules specifically mention Sense Motive and Disguise (and possibly Stealth) as things the DM is supposed to roll for the player, exactly for the purpose of avoiding the whole metagame issue. The character will always believe he made the best possible lie, disguise or attempt to stay hidden. Until he possibly finds out he didn't the hard way.
Of course a player may prefer to make his own rolls. Also there are abilities that allow you to reroll certain checks. And obviously those only work if the player knows that a roll was low. Unless the DM feels obliged to hint to their players that their roll was pretty low and that they might want to consider using their ability. After all, the second roll can easily be as low, if not lower, then the first roll.
So yeah, what the others said. If the players make their own rolls, do your own rolling behind a screen and make 'fake' rolls occasionally to keep people on their toes.
One thing to remember about Sense Motive: Detecting lies is only one thing one can do with the skill. Even if there is no lie to be detected, one can still give out some hints about the NPC's mood etc. This can help players steer the conversation into an advantageous direction.
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Make sure to let your players know that just because dice are rolling, doesn't necessarily mean that anything is happening. I have played with GMs that will have players make Sense Motive rolls on characters telling the truth or roll 'stealth' rolls for things that aren't there. Have an NPC lie to them about something completely off base and unrelated to the event. (NPC can't give you an alibi during the murder because his wife will learn he was with his mistress or some other Red Herring.) Make an NPC roll a save against Zone of Truth, even if he is Ned Flanders, just so they either think he has something to hide (Spoiler: He doesn't) or until they learn that just because dice clatter, do not start assuming.
Also, try bringing it up to your players. Let them know that even if they are making a sense motive roll or whatever, don't metagame.
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Rolling the Bluff ahead of time is fine for most groups. Rolling the PC's Sense Motive isn't.I would like to point out that the rules specifically mention Sense Motive and Disguise (and possibly Stealth) as things the DM is supposed to roll for the player, exactly for the purpose of avoiding the whole metagame issue. The character will always believe he made the best possible lie, disguise or attempt to stay hidden. Until he possibly finds out he didn't the hard way.
All true. I was just noting that doing so would, in fact, quite possibly piss off many groups.
I keep a little card for each player with stuff like perception, sense motive, hp, ac, the 3 saves and other info I might need. sometimes I roll for them, or beforehand, sometimes I just add 10 and use that for their check.
BUT: I always allow them to roll a skill if they can justify it, and in opposed rolls I always roll a dice behind the screen. (sometimes I also ham it up a bit by raising my eyebrows for a moment while checking the roll and then consulting some of my notes while muttering "hmmm ....")
Then again these guys are the type that call out sense motive on random passerby npcs and innkeepers but forget to ask for a roll aginst a dear friend (who is so Totally betraying them!)
i will talk to my group so we can figure out what we want. on a side note am I supposed to ask then to roll the sense motive in conversations or let them ask?
I have a nervous tic which causes me to roll dice when I'm GMing, particularly when I'm reading&holding an IC conversation, but also when I'm waiting for players to decide what to do. Players never know if I'm rolling a save or a check or just rolling for no reason. I do have to retire a d20 about once/month when I'm GMing but otherwise no significant downsides to having the tic.Wait, ... You roll the die so much that you wear them out?
Holy crap! Do you use a dice tray lined with sandpaper?
Call me spoiled if you want, but I like dice which actually stop instead of running out of steam. I spent too much time in my teens and twenties chasing after dice with rounded edges which jumped off the table and rolled under something to not appreciate the joy of a sharp-edged die when I had to buy new dice in my thirties. I've thought about going for the metal dice, but haven't found a way to get the noise down to a reasonable level with them. There is nothing per se wrong with using dice with rounded edges, but I have little reason not to indulge myself in the pleasure of dice with sharp edges and I'm sure I'm not the only person in the world who prefers sharp-edged dice.
related trivia, casinos set a limit (usually about 8 hours) for how long dice can be used as the edges get rounded so rolls take longer and the number of rolls per minute goes down, which decreases casino profits.
Expensive dice but will save you money in the long run
video with the guy that manufacturers those dice. You might say he is a bit obsessed.
This is just my Dm style, which is left over from early days.
But I always use a DM screen.
If I want to make players nervous, I roll dice.
I don't really pay attention to what the dice say, the players just think "something is happening"
I do this usually during NPC conversations and.or reading descriptions/intros.
When a PC takes too long to make a decision , I roll dice.
again it doesn't mean anything (except sometimes they speed up their decision making)
When the PCs are bickering or wasting time buying/selling too much, I roll dice.
Occasionally during all this dice rolling, I write down a few results if I know something is coming up, not combat, but traps, major npcs, etc… then I just use my rolls in the order I wrote them down to quickly narrate through something that is happening.
Makes it more dynamic.
and they never have any idea what all dice rolling is for.
I think it's become a nervous tick tho too.
when waiting for players to show up… Ill sit and the table, and roll dice...
I use hero labs and use my laptop as a DM screen. If the players are actively using a skill they roll the dice, if not then I use the built in die roller. I also use the tactical console to speed up combat. I have a copy of all the characters loaded so I never have to ask a player for information on his character.
Depending on the situation I may simply have the players roll a d20 and tell me the results. For example if the party is about to be ambushed and are rolling perception to spot the ambush I will have the players roll. If on the other hand I someone is lying to them then I will use the computer. Anytime the player request to make a roll I have roll.
so I had this idea but im not sure if its ok to use. If a pc is talking to an npc and the pc rolls a sense motive and the npc rolls to for a bluff then pc is going to be suspicious from the metagame knowledge. so is it ok to roll ahead of time or not?
One thing I started doing was to have PCs roll for every planned check in a module--which includes knowledge checks per monster--and to just notate what they know or pick up on.
After that I ask them to fill out the GM sheet giving me their skills. Unless otherwise stated, they are taking 10 on things each round. For planned traps they already actively rolled against them above.
Pendagast I want to roll dice to make them nervous but I usually forget or become distracted I have been try to incorporate that into my DMing style cause I like it. and I will have to talk to my group about the skills thing, I like it and I know the will save they are cool with since it is happening in the other campaign we play as well. I don't want a huge fight and to be accused of cheating the dice and then have a big fight.