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The 5e PHB is still selling over a thousand copies a day on Amazon, 3.5 years after initial release....now that's amazing! I'm doubtful that even when PF2 comes out that it can overtake such a huge lead.
It might. At that point, 5E will be at least 6 years into it's lifecycle so it might be on the downswing. ON the other hand, if shows like CRITICAL ROLE and other streaming games continue to be as popular as they are using 5E? You're right Pathfinder won't have a chance to pass it all unless it does some streaming promotion of it's own.
I had no intention of running 5E at all until I started listening to the Critical Role podcast and was able to follow what going on rule wise without owning any of the books for reference. When I found out that Tales of the Yawning Portal collected a bunch of older adventures converted to 5E (including Tomb of Horrors, Against the Giants and White Plume Mountain) I ordered my 5E books off of Amazon and proceeded to set up to start my "Classics Campaign" for this summer.
I'll still be running Pathfinder but for people who haven't played RPG's before I'll be using 5E.
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Yes I know that paizo has a good many sales via direct sales off their site but dang, 12 of the top 20 fantasy books on Amazon are D&D releases, most aren't recent releases either.
PHB is 25th on all books list.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/books/16211/ref=pd_zg_hrsr_books_1_3_ last
Paizo was smart in the staffinder release cause they have a revenue stream coming in at least while they create their PF2e out late next year.
Two slots out of the top 5. Paizo dominates the industry.
https://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/39857/top-5-roleplaying-games-fall-2 017
Two slots out of the top 5. Paizo dominates the industry.
https://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/39857/top-5-roleplaying-games-fall-2 017
You can't say that without seeing the raw numbers. Ranking only tells you the order, not the relative amount.
If the top one is selling 100k per month, and position two is selling 20k per month, it doesn't matter if the same company has positions two through five - all four of those combined don't equal the number one position.
That’s impressive this far in.
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I currently have six clients. I'm easily impressed. :p
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OK, so it's officially 16 Quarters now.
Aaand technically Starfinder also beat out Pathfinder.
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Kickstarter is continuing to hammer the Tabletop Game market as well.
To be fair, PF is well known to have a new edition coming out and that tends to depress sales in the short term, whereas SF is the New Hotness.
I have yet to see you actually present information suggesting that Kickstarter is actually having an effect on the game market, at least as far as Pathfinder and DnD are concerned.
Chief Technical Officer
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The 5E Strongholds & Streaming Kickstarter raised $2,121,465, so I think it's safe to say there's an effect on the game market there... though what exactly that effect *is* is debatable.
It's pretty clearly good for D&D. And while this represents a lot of books that won't be sold by retailers, I don't see it taking any existing sales away from them, and any new players it might generate need to buy their D&D books SOMEWHERE, so I score that as a "weak positive" for them.
Since 2012, I've been supporting Kickstarters:
Rappan Athuk @ $100
Reaper Bones Minis@ $256
Dwarven Forge Game Tiles @ $175
Giant Foam Polyhedral Dice @ $20
Deep Magic for Pathfinder RPG @ $40
Reaper Bones II @ $100
Deck of Many Things @ $24
Advanced Bestiary @ $45
Mythic Mania 3 rulebooks for Pathfinder RPG @ $150
Tact-Tiles @ $92
Aaron Allston's Strike Force @ $56
The Lost Lands: Bard's Gate for 5E, Pathfinder, and S&W! @ $100
Super Powered Legends Sourcebook for M&M @ $25
Critical Hit & Fumble Dice @ $22
That's $1205 over 6 years which may not seem like alot? But I can honestly tell you that I KNOW that I havent spent that much at my local gaming store in that time. Not even HALF of that. That's money that went DIRECTLY to the publishers/producers that I wanted to support and not a retail store.
This amount doesn't even include the boardgame (ARCADIA QUEST/ZOMBICIDE) or video game (PATHFINDER KINGMAKER) KS I've backed. To imply that Kickstarters don't have an effect on the game market is willful ignorance, AT BEST,
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Chief Technical Officer
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But I feel comfortable thinking that, on the whole, Kickstarter is taking money away from the brick-and-mortar side of things.
...
Kickstarter seems to be great for collectors and niche gamers. Which brings up another point:
I think the fact that niche games aren't a common thing at any brick-and-mortar businesses is a strong independent indication I'm right.
If Kickstarter is great for niche games, and niche games aren't common at brick-and-mortar, how can Kickstarter sales of those games take money away from brick-and-mortar? Stores that wouldn't carry those products wouldn't make any money off of them even if Kickstarter didn't exist.
(Sure, you can argue that if those sales weren't happening on Kickstarter, those customers would instead go spend that money on more mainstream games at brick-and-mortar stores, but... do you really think that's true? I certainly don't think it's the common case.)
But there *are* people who don't like buying things online, or who dislike the risk associated with Kickstarter, that become aware of a successfully Kickstarted product, and ask their FLGS to buy copies. That's why I mark it as a weak positive for retailers (at least, for those that aren't so anti-Kickstarter that they refuse that customer's request).
Since 2012, I've been supporting Kickstarters:
Rappan Athuk @ $100
Reaper Bones Minis@ $256
Dwarven Forge Game Tiles @ $175
Giant Foam Polyhedral Dice @ $20
Deep Magic for Pathfinder RPG @ $40
Reaper Bones II @ $100
Deck of Many Things @ $24
Advanced Bestiary @ $45
Mythic Mania 3 rulebooks for Pathfinder RPG @ $150
Tact-Tiles @ $92
Aaron Allston's Strike Force @ $56
The Lost Lands: Bard's Gate for 5E, Pathfinder, and S&W! @ $100
Super Powered Legends Sourcebook for M&M @ $25
Critical Hit & Fumble Dice @ $22That's $1205 over 6 years which may not seem like alot? But I can honestly tell you that I KNOW that I havent spent that much at my local gaming store in that time. Not even HALF of that. That's money that went DIRECTLY to the publishers/producers that I wanted to support and not a retail store.
This amount doesn't even include the boardgame (ARCADIA QUEST/ZOMBICIDE) or video game (PATHFINDER KINGMAKER) KS I've backed. To imply that Kickstarters don't have an effect on the game market is willful ignorance, AT BEST,
I've spent 0 on kickstarter, and while my purchases have declined in the last two years, far far far too much money on Paizo and to a much lesser degree brick and mortar stores. So we cancel each other out :)
I mean my question is...how many of these are products that would normally be available at all without kickstarter? and are the majority of folks investing in Kickstarter taking money they would be normally spending at retail shops and transferring it to kickstarter sales? I will more than happy to admit online sales in general are eating into businesses due to simple convenience and the availability of niche items. I just don't think that is a separate aspect from online sales in general.
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If Kickstarter is great for niche games, and niche games aren't common at brick-and-mortar, how can Kickstarter sales of those games take money away from brick-and-mortar? Stores that wouldn't carry those products wouldn't make any money off of them even if Kickstarter didn't exist.
(Sure, you can argue that if those sales weren't happening on Kickstarter, those customers would instead go spend that money on more mainstream games at brick-and-mortar stores, but... do you really think that's true? I certainly don't think it's the common case.)
This is certainly my experience. I spend around $3000 on kickstarter each year, but none of that has come from the "what I was going to spend at a local gaming store" budget.
I base my purchasing decisions on the product, not on the venue and kickstarter "sells" a different product than my FLGS or online retailers.
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Another thought on Kickstarter:
When you are backing a Kickstarter you are enabling the product to be created in the first place. A successful Kickstarter enables items to be made that never would have been. Many Kickstarters have a ‘Retailer’ pledge level that allow brick and mortar stores to participate and get products at a cheaper rate. Even if a store doesn’t buy in, these products are made, and available after the Kickstarter finishes to be bought retail. Thus, it gives stores more stock to line their shelves with.
This is not a zero-sum game
If there's any single thing that affects what share of sales the FLGS gets, it's Amazon.
An element of truth here.
When I decided to go in for 5E I did the simple math. If I bought the three core books at my local store it would cost me $150 plus tax. I bought the three core books PLUS Tales of the Yawning Portal, which is another $50 book for a total of $138.
That's four books for less than the cost of three at retail.
The thing is though, lately, there are fewer and fewer of those kinds of deals on Amazon these days. For things like electronics I'm likely to, depending on the size and bulk, find competitive prices at local stores (like B&H and Best Buy) and buy there instead.
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Another thought on Kickstarter:
Many Kickstarters have a ‘Retailer’ pledge level that allow brick and mortar stores to participate and get products at a cheaper rate. Even if a store doesn’t buy in, these products are made, and available after the Kickstarter finishes to be bought retail. Thus, it gives stores more stock to line their shelves with.
Absolutely correct!
I was about to make this very same point.
Kickstarter takes money away from the FLGS because not everyone has an unlimited supply of disposable gaming money allocated in their budget.
If you spend it at Kickstarter you won't be spending it at the FLGS.
I’m not going to spend it on bagpipes either - that doesn’t mean Kickstarter is bad for bagpipe sales.
I don’t have “gaming money” (nor an unlimited disposable income). You’re pooling two different interests because they have “game” in the name. They’re not the same product from the perspective of my decision making.
When I have a quiet patch on Kickstarter, I don’t increase my spending at gaming stores.
Kickstarter is selling things that wouldn’t get made - I couldn’t have spent my kickstarter money at an FLGS in a world-without-crowdfunding because those products wouldn’t exist and I buy things based on the product, not the venue.
We actually have had three new stores catering to board games, collectible card games, and rpgs open in the last five years, and another store opened a new storefront and they seem to be doing pretty good (with at least two of them thriving).
There's my anecdotal evidence for today. :-)
It is much more likely that the online giants are squeezing the FLGS than kickstarters
KS work best when a small indie person, say myself, wants to produce an idea that wouldn't get made otherwise because I don't have a spare 1000 to pay an artist, and 500 for an editor.
I do get a bit grumpy when big companies use KS....but again it may that they wouldn't take a risk making Game X, if they didn't have guaranteed income!
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All brick and mortar stores are suffering because of the paradigm change in giant retailers. This has been going on for decades. Gaming stores are just the latest victim, mostly because of online retailers like Amazon, which can host almost anything. Borders, Waldenbooks, and others are long gone and Barnes and Nobles is hanging on by being one of the last book B&M chains. That is just a byproduct of the innovations in the distribution chains, just as supermarkets and chain stores in their day killed the corner markets and Main Street retail shops.
In my own experience, I have had bad experiences with many gaming stores. This is, of course, extremely anecdotal, but after the first half-dozen interactions with salespeople who acted as if they didn’t care if I was in their store, I basically went fully online for my gaming needs. Specifically Paizo for the past 10 years, but also Amazon, and Drive thrurpg. I believe that gaming stores often suffer from a lack of professionalism. Once again, not every game store, but it has happened enough to me personally not to think it is a statistical anomaly.
I have spent many thousands of dollars on gaming, and gaming-related items. I have also spent a fair amount of my working experience in a retail setting. There is a saying in retail: a customer you alienate over a $10 purchase is actually a $10,000 loss to your business in future sales. I would have been more amenable to supporting local game stores if the counter help hadn’t been playing a game online or talking to a coterie of regulars about their own concerns.
Blaming Kickstarters for the demise of brick and mortar stores is ignoring several much more pressing issues, IMO. Even if somehow Kickstater, Patreon, and Amazon disappeared overnight, it would still leave the problem of rising rents, economy of scale, lack of ability to stock anything that isn’t ‘popular ‘. You can’t put the genie back in the bottle.
Now, there is room for innovation. Gaming venues that focus more on providing gaming spaces and hosting tournaments seem to be doing well from my anecdotal observations.
The retail world is a Darwinian ecosphere. Nothing will change that.
Kickstarter is selling things that wouldn’t get made - I couldn’t have spent my kickstarter money at an FLGS in a world-without-crowdfunding because those products wouldn’t exist and I buy things based on the product, not the venue.You’re missing my point. I’ve got two large boxes of old (older than me anyway) gaming material. Lots of D&D type stuff but also a miscellany of other games, plus some Dragon magazines in the mid-to-upper double digits. In these I see a plethora of products, virtually all of which was sold via FLGSs back in the day.
I’ll grant that on Kickstarter (and Drive Thru RPG, etc.) there are even more options, but (and this is my point) it looks to me like the typical FLGS circa 1990 had way more TTRPG options than today’s do. Whatever Kickstarter is doing it’s not affecting brick-and-mortar much in the positive direction and there are credible signs that it is a direct competitor.
Without Kickstarter and such there would at least be more options at FLGSs for TTRPG systems.
I’m not missing it, I disagree with it. I don’t see any evidence for your final sentence.
I think Kickstarter has enabled the production of stuff which wouldn’t otherwise get made. I don’t see any evidence that companies are ceasing to produce stuff which can be purchased via a FLGS and instead producing Kickstarter goodies.
I think “back in the day” things were different, sure. That doesn’t mean that without Kickstarter they’d be the same now as they used to be.
I think you’re seeing correlation and inferring causation.
I don’t see any evidence for your final sentence.That's OK, unless you own a FLGS you wouldn't have an opinion that I'd consider more deeply anyway.
Okay, I shall cease offering it.
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I imagine though when you include prep time and hustle time to get clients in the first place, you end up far closer to minimum wage than $100/hour.
I've done the 10-15 sessions in a single month that would make that somewhat livable. Trust me when I say that it's not all that great a gig.
I don’t see any evidence for your final sentence.That's OK, unless you own a FLGS you wouldn't have an opinion that I'd consider more deeply anyway. As I've said up-thread more than once, my opinion is based on talking with FLGS owners (four currently, two others over the past few years) and reading roughly four FLGS blogs.
In short, Kickstarter is a non-starter for most FLGS's. Where at one time (before my time) FLGS owners could be persuaded to stock a new/unusual game, now they're not interested until their spidey-sense tells them it's worth taking up shelf space.
Have you interviewed these FLGS to determine how their supply chain and inventory systems work? Because I can tell you from first hand experience, even some of the "best run", most experienced RPG stores in the history of this country have laughably bad inventory management. And I mean comically bad.
Customer goes up to the register and special orders a book.
Register employee fills out the order, and records the person's information.
Register employee adds the book to the stores supply orders.
Order is filled by the stores vendor.
Person in charge of RPG inventory management opens the box.
Person in charge of RPG inventory has not been informed that the book was a special order, and stocks it on the shelf.
Customer is never contacted.
I'm not making this up. This is an actual thing that happens... ALL THE TIME.
One of my gaming groups I play with the production manager and co-owner (2 separate people) of one of the industries oldest publishers. The co-owner is also a part owner in my regions largest gaming hobby store (the owners of the store are part owners of the publisher, and they share warehousing space). The publisher has been in business for 40 years (in most of the history of gaming books, you'll actually find the co-owners name), the store around 30, maybe a little longer, and they've won industry awards for being the best gaming store in the country.
And yet, the store still has horrendously bad inventory management.
I agree that they rely on their "spidey-sense" to know what books to stock. The problem is that they don't have some sort of super power, they just have normal, extremely fallible, human-sense.
5E got a mention in the Hasbro annual report to shareholders a couple of years ago as one of the high performing brands (usually D&D doesn't get a mention, I believe - WotC has predominantly been about MtG at that level).