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In Pathfinder, if it exists and isn't immune to absolutely everything there exists a Wizard 20 build that can trivially get rid of it, for certain definitions of trivial.
So a 20th level wizard with 10 mythic ranks is just a worthless minion that can be gotten rid of trivially by something that falls 5 CR under it?
Kinda makes the whole "wizurds r godz, ROFL!!!" movement seem overrated.
No it just means Wizard levels (really Full caster levels) are more important then Mythic tiers. That's just facts.
Then Cthulhu spends his one a day wish copying everything you do? Or you never face anything but an astral projection? If we're playing the silly game, he gets wish and gate (at CL 30), the only spells I'm not sure he can get are level 9 druid only spells.
Also, if we're trying for thematic cheese, he should be wearing robes covered in symbols of insanity whom a minion of some sort reads before he arrives, causing everyone within 60 feet of him to go insane. So you're gonna need some compulsion/mind affecting immunity in there, and I don't think clear spindle works on insanity (no control). Plus you'd also need to get it for your Glabrezu.
He gets Wish 1/day and Gate 1/day. A level 20 Caster gets at least 6. A day. And that's not counting the double days the casters get from Create Greater Demiplane. Not counting the permanent minions they can make cost free. Or the minions they can get with Planar Binding. Or the fact that the caster can make Snowcone Cthulhus and out pace Cthulhu at his own game. The caster will always win this battle.
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Evidently not, since his stat block doesn't list him having any of that. Maybe he should have planned ahead?
Still not seeing any of that in his stat block.
Really? It's right here: "Int 31, Wis 36". Also, "Knowledge (arcana) +49, Knowledge (dungeoneering, engineering, geography, history, nature, planes, religion) +46". And to add on to that, it apparently took Craft Wondrous Item, so it should have some magic items it made itself
The magic items aren't in its stat block so it must have lost them. And I can totally direct to a Wizard's stat block for you Kthulhu. Here
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The magic items aren't in its stat block so it must have lost them.
No, it means it's up to GM discretion which ones it has.
The magic items aren't in its stat block so it must have lost them.No, it means it's up to GM discretion which ones it has.
Won't help it much regardless.
Standard enemies will never stand up as written against people who are using non standard ways to fight them. Yes cthulhu is scary. But he has stats so if he exist as written he can die. If a dm wants to change him to be a bigger threat who is prepared with counter measures that is fine. But that is not how he is written.If you have the monster's stat block and build a high level character specifically to fight that monster, it's not hard to kill it. The other way around works as well: given the stat block for any 20th level character, you can pretty easily build a monster that will kill that character in 1 round.
Not really, most of what I suggested was general stuff any caster can do. And even if casters are killed it's not like they die. That would be silly. Dying when you are killed is for chumps. My casters consider dying eight times before breakfast a minor inconvenience.
Hrm... That'd probably be my Conjurer Wizard since my Lunar Oracle is currently suffering from the Spells Known FAQ. Though if I reworked the Lunar Oracle into a Ancient Lorekeeper (valid for half-elfs) I'd would probably be my Lunar Oracle. Though for this fight I'd pick the Lunar Oracle anyway since immunity to mind-affecting makes the fight even more of a joke.
Oh any of my caster can get all the information about him pretty easily thanks to divination magic, which Cthulhu is laughably not immune to. Feel free to change the feats and invest the triple standard treasure into magic items, but it won't really help.
I think JoeJ (or someone else of the same mind) should take Cthulhu, Anzyr should take his 20th level caster, and you two should battle someplace where others can watch. Whoever is controlling Cthulhu gets to use all abilities as listed, and Anzyr gets to use his best current 20th level caster. I'd watch that...I'm not sure what you mean by "of the same mind." Do you mean rebuild Cthulhu from the ground up and not reveal anything about him except vague and possibly contradictory lore until abilities are actually used against the PC?
"of the same mind" meaning someone who thinks they can take Cthulhu and put the hurt on Anzyr's caster.
I mean you get to use Cthulu as written, with all of his knowledge, abilities, skills, etc. So, as someone mentioned, he gets to craft magic items, and so on and so forth...
I don't believe I've ever expressed the opinion that Cthulhu as written can do that. I'm the one who thinks that monsters need to be mysteries to threaten powerful characters, and that cosmic horrors would be better played without stat blocks at all.
Then why on Earth have you been talking about it? When I said "Cthulhu is pretty easy for a level 20 caster to kill." your answer should have been "Yup." then.
Oh any of my caster can get all the information about him pretty easily thanks to divination magic, which Cthulhu is laughably not immune to. Feel free to change the feats and invest the triple standard treasure into magic items, but it won't really help.
Immunity to divination can be bought, you know.
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So I have a bit of a problem with using the Glabrezu detonating all of those Explosive Runes. Aside from Glabrezu not getting Greater Dispel Magic, how is he going to dispel all 700 of those runes? Are they all on 1 object or are they on separate objects? And what's to stop the first Explosive Rune exploding destroying the rest of the Explosive Runes?
True. But Legend Lore will get me what I need to know.
So I have a bit of a problem with using the Glabrezu detonating all of those Explosive Runes. Aside from Glabrezu not getting Greater Dispel Magic, how is he going to dispel all 700 of those runes? Are they all on 1 object or are they on separate objects? And what's to stop the first Explosive Rune exploding destroying the rest of the Explosive Runes?
Woops, I meant Nalfeshnee, mixed them up since their both Summon Monster IX. But to answer your question yes each is on a different object. However, the Greater Dispel (area) will hit them all at once so they will all detonate at the same time. It's a 20ft. radius so that will hit a large area with a lot of Explosive Runes.
Then why on Earth have you been talking about it? When I said "Cthulhu is pretty easy for a level 20 caster to kill." your answer should have been "Yup." then.I don't believe I've ever expressed the opinion that Cthulhu as written can do that. I'm the one who thinks that monsters need to be mysteries to threaten powerful characters, and that cosmic horrors would be better played without stat blocks at all.
I pretty much did.
If you have the monster's stat block and build a high level character specifically to fight that monster, it's not hard to kill it. The other way around works as well: given the stat block for any 20th level character, you can pretty easily build a monster that will kill that character in 1 round.Now if you want to post your caster's stats and give me the chance to create a CR30 monster of my own from scratch, I can do that. I'm not sure I see what the point of it would be, though.
No, I'm not going to let you stat up a monster, since there's no restrictions on the abilities you can give the monster. That's not even a contest of any sorts really and is kind of meaningless.
So I have a bit of a problem with using the Glabrezu detonating all of those Explosive Runes. Aside from Glabrezu not getting Greater Dispel Magic, how is he going to dispel all 700 of those runes? Are they all on 1 object or are they on separate objects? And what's to stop the first Explosive Rune exploding destroying the rest of the Explosive Runes?Woops, I meant Nalfeshnee, mixed them up since their both Summon Monster IX. But to answer your question yes each is on a different object. However, the Greater Dispel (area) will hit them all at once so they will all detonate at the same time. It's a 20ft. radius so that will hit a large area with a lot of Explosive Runes.
That makes more sense now. I was trying to go over the Glabrezu doing it and I just couldn't figure out how it was gonna get done because it only has Dispel Magic and if they were all on 1 object, you need something that could withstand the full damage of Explosive Rune and if it were on multiple, it wouldn't work at all. Thanks for the clarification.
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Okay, lets see,
You go into the timestop
You pull out 100 explosive runes in a duffle bag
You summon an ally - Nalfeshnee
You cast Greater Heroism on it. Which fails to target it, because it is time stopped.
You run away.
Nalfeshnee has to save or die.
I think I see a tiny problem with this.
(Anyone feel up to doing the math on what 100 explosive runes cast by a 20th level caster at +2 levels for spell penetration would cost as a spell casting service? Seriously, what GM lets you just stockpile that?
Okay, lets see,
You go into the timestop
You pull out 100 explosive runes in a duffle bag
You summon an ally - Nalfeshnee
You cast Greater Heroism on it. Which fails to target it, because it is time stopped.
You run away.
Nalfeshnee has to save or die.
I think I see a tiny problem with this.
(Anyone feel up to doing the math on what 100 explosive runes cast by a 20th level caster at +2 levels for spell penetration would cost as a spell casting service? Seriously, what GM lets you just stockpile that?
You ready an action to cast it once the time stop ends. Then you use your move to get out of dodge. Also, Explosive Runes are permanent. What GM wouldn't let you stockpile them?
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Also what Anzyr is suggesting is totally nonstandard. Cool yes. Clever yes. Something that would come up in normal play? Nope
Its not that nonstandard for a Twentieth-level wizard to have these things actually. It is nonstandard to have a game get to Twentieth level, but when discussing said level, this wizard is fairly standard for a well-prepared wizard.
Stockpiling Explosive Runes is something I have been wanting to start since I first read the spell, and have been told is commonplace for non-PFS wizards IRL. Now, hundreds of them does seem a bit paranoid, but I would totally try to have around Twenty at all times. And Summon Monster IX and Time Stop aren't exactly rare tactical spells to have on hand.
The former gives you access to all sorts of goodies for 2 minutes[or for a Conjurer, for until you cast another one], including but not limited to extra bodies on the field, extra meat shields, SLA's [for spells you don't have prepared/can't cast], and flank partners for the fighter.
The latter is a combination of the ultimate GTFO card, the ultimate Self-buff time, and the ultimate summon a [insert amazing creature here] time. Now, I give you that this isn't exactly the standard wizards must meet, but it isn't exactly far from the standard either.
(Anyone feel up to doing the math on what 100 explosive runes cast by a 20th level caster at +2 levels for spell penetration would cost as a spell casting service? Seriously, what GM lets you just stockpile that?
I got 660K for it, done as a 22nd level caster[2 of that is Spell Pen].
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You ready an action to cast it once the time stop ends. Then you use your move to get out of dodge. Also, Explosive Runes are permanent. What GM wouldn't let you stockpile them?Okay, lets see,
You go into the timestop
You pull out 100 explosive runes in a duffle bag
You summon an ally - Nalfeshnee
You cast Greater Heroism on it. Which fails to target it, because it is time stopped.
You run away.
Nalfeshnee has to save or die.
I think I see a tiny problem with this.
(Anyone feel up to doing the math on what 100 explosive runes cast by a 20th level caster at +2 levels for spell penetration would cost as a spell casting service? Seriously, what GM lets you just stockpile that?
My understanding is that you cast time stop as a standard, and all 1d4+1 rounds occur during that standard action. I don't think you can ready for another standard when you come out, because now you are back in the normal flow of time, and it is your turn and you have used your standard.
Also, the aura kicks in as soon as the time stop ends, so while you are spending your standard casting, the aura kills your ally.
That's not even a contest of any sorts really and is kind of meaningless.
Now you're gettin' it. ;)
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Again, I'm curious as to whether Anzyr's ever used these tactics in an actual game.
Um, legend lore has a cast time of at least 1d10 days (more likely 2d6 weeks, since the most anyone knows about it is that's a great old one that's living on another world) unless you're actually in Cthulhu's presence. And actually getting a run-down of the stat block from freaking legend lore would require an amazingly permissive GM.
As a general guideline, view the default stat blocks as normal mode, which is written for a party of four who aren't seriously optimizing (or worse, actively trying to break the game).
Cthulhu's "normal mode" stat block is pretty straight forward; I'd recommend thinking of it as "Cthulhu just woke up."
And yes, if your GM is allowing a scenario where Cthulhu gets blind-sided while the party has had infinite time to prepare (and knows Cthulhu's statblock in character because the GM has no spine), and doesn't bother to adjust Cthulhu at all, then Cthulhu would get stomped.
I'd expect a campaign that actually deploys big C to go a bit differently.
I have no problems with mythic PCs ultimately being able to combat and re-seal Cthulhu, because tier 10 PCs are demigods in their own rights. They SHOULD be able to fight threats of that caliber.
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meh. I think that any GM worth anything who is allowing wizards to stockpile ER, eventually you will run into an NPC wielding the same tactic, and the whole game will come down to "who timestops first." (and all the other non caster PCs will become largely irrelevant.)
Again, I'm curious as to whether Anzyr's ever used these tactics in an actual game.
Um, legend lore has a cast time of at least 1d10 days (more likely 2d6 weeks, since the most anyone knows about it is that's a great old one that's living on another world) unless you're actually in Cthulhu's presence. And actually getting a run-down of the stat block from freaking legend lore would require an amazingly permissive GM.
As a general guideline, view the default stat blocks as normal mode, which is written for a party of four who aren't seriously optimizing (or worse, actively trying to break the game).
Cthulhu's "normal mode" stat block is pretty straight forward; I'd recommend thinking of it as "Cthulhu just woke up."
And yes, if your GM is allowing a scenario where Cthulhu gets blind-sided while the party has had infinite time to prepare (and knows Cthulhu's statblock in character because the GM has no spine), and doesn't bother to adjust Cthulhu at all, then Cthulhu would get stomped.
I'd expect a campaign that actually deploys big C to go a bit differently.
I have no problems with mythic PCs ultimately being able to combat and re-seal Cthulhu, because tier 10 PCs are demigods in their own rights. They SHOULD be able to fight threats of that caliber.
Legend Lore can be reduce to a single action thanks to Wish. And that's how Legend Lore works. Cast it enough and you arrive at the answer. Go ahead and read it, that's literally how it works.
Have I ever used Explosive Rune dispelling tactics in a real game before? You betcha (though it was only a pack of 20). It gets tossed around not infrequently. Also, no one needs "infinite" time to prepare for Cthulhu. Most of what I suggested should be pretty available. Stockpiling Explosive Runes isn't exactly hard as any day you have downtime is +20 or more Explosive Runes. The Caster doesn't need to blindside Cthulhu to dunk him. He just needs to be aware that Cthulhu is coming.
@ Flite - Did you miss the whole "Quickened Time Stop"? I still have a standard and a move once the 1d4+1 rounds end. And yes, at high levels fights come down purely to which caster prepared better.
@ Kobold Cleaver - Your comment makes 0 sense.