Goblin Squad Member
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Agreed that that's when it went downhill.
Kudos to Tracy Hickman for coming across that mess and figuring out a way to bring back the Dragonlance we knew by explaining it all in a way that could allow him to undo all the changes. By then the damage was done and the setting has really dwindled in popularity.
When I GM games it's usually Dragonlance. The last play by post one I ran died when WoTC decided to revamp their boards. Now I worry I'll never get to take part in a game set there again. When I do run them I try to go for historical campaigns to avoid the whole 5th age fiasco.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I never read Mr. Hickman's retcon novel(s). By that point, I was one of the people who had left Dragonlance behind.
If I weren't running the Skull & Shackles AP in Golarion these days, I could be tempted to run or play a game with the Pathfinder rules, set in the (pre-5th Age) Dragonlance world.
In PFO, maybe when fighters and lightly armored characters are in a party together, everyone could have a toggle that adjusts their speed to match the slowest person in the party. If a rogue wants to scout ahead, switch it off. If a wizard wants to stay near the party tank without always looking back, turn it on.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A digression into history again. The biggest drawback of armour, particularly of the type worn in the Middle Ages, wasn't about mobility or weight but rather HEAT. Anyone that's involved with strenuos actvity outdoors, particularly in warm weather, is acutely aware of the effects heat can have on a person. Being encased in heavy materials that don't breathe well seriously amplifies that effect. Not just practical experience today but a number of historical accounts bear that out pretty well... especialy those dealing with soldiers used to European climates starting to operate in warmer climates such as the Holy Lands.
Even up into modern times, without the heavy leather and plate, fatigue from heat and heat stroke is still an important concern for soldiers fighting in long battles or engaged in other strenuous activities during hot weather. It's why so much stress is put on keeping hydrated.
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Goblin Squad Member
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On the main topic, did this week's Alpha version add any new UI-slot-filling fighter abilities? For the last few builds, clerics and wizards have had plenty of orisons and cantrips to slot, but fighters have been running around with a bunch of empty action buttons. Just implementing more buttons for fighters to press might result in more fighter PCs on the Twitch feeds.
Regarding armor and speed, fighters who want to wear heavy armor and still keep up with the party might eventually benefit from training a bunch of levels of a Move Faster in Armor feat. Medium armor might prove best for moving combat, and heavy armor best for mostly-stationary things like settlement defense.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I bet you're right, Guurzak.
Personally, I always look for "Go Faster" abilities in MMOs, ever since I played a druid in Everquest 1. If all four roles have one Go Faster ability line or another, I'll probably train those feats on virtually all of my characters. If only a couple of roles get them, that's one more incentive for me to multiclass.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A digression into history again. The biggest drawback of armour, particularly of the type worn in the Middle Ages, wasn't about mobility or weight but rather HEAT. Anyone that's involved with strenuos actvity outdoors, particularly in warm weather, is acutely aware of the effects heat can have on a person. Being encased in heavy materials that don't breathe well seriously amplifies that effect. Not just practical experience today but a number of historical accounts bear that out pretty well... especialy those dealing with soldiers used to European climates starting to operate in warmer climates such as the Holy Lands.
Even up into modern times, without the heavy leather and plate, fatigue from heat and heat stroke is still an important concern for soldiers fighting in long battles or engaged in other strenuous activities during hot weather. It's why so much stress is put on keeping hydrated.
Heart failure is a leading cause of death among firefighters, it kills more than smoke inhalation, and firefighters have heart failure more than many other professions. It's likely tied to heavy loads, restricted breathing, and high-stress events that the firefighters deal with daily on the job.
I imagine it was a killer among the heavily armored knights as well. There was probably some number that just collapsed in a melee and died without a wound; there were probably also some that started to collapse and got killed in the moments before the heart attack got them.
Heh. I got started on Dragonlance with those "new chronicles". I remember Madoc the evil wizard, Sindri Suncatcher the kender who wanted to be a wizard, Nearra the main character, Cat the...was she a knight? Some sword lady, and a copper dragon who I wanna call Kroiph but that's the wrong story.
As a kid, I liked them.
But forget the books! That movie kicked ass! In the hilariously godawful way. :D
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Goblin Squad Member
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Since my girlfriend won alpha access I've had a chance to do some testing. Amongst that testing was quantifying the speed difference between armor types. I haven't attempted sprinting comparisons, so all speeds are based on normal movement. I haven't tested light armor yet as none of our 3 characters have light armor. The tests were done by walking across the length of the bridge in Sotterhill and using my phone's stopwatch app. Since these are timed by hand I took 4 trials each and averaged them. The spread was tiny enough that uncertainties in the averages should be pretty negligible. For the current build it appears that:
*Medium is ~5/6 as fast as cloth.
*Heavy is ~2/3 (4/6) as fast as cloth.
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Goblin Squad Member
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i think they are fixing the problem with armor as weighted encumbrance instead
but dont remember if that was definite or just water cooler talk
That's probably my fault for spreading misinformation.
The latest clarification from Stephen on the Alpha Forums is that Encumbrance will not be in the next build, and the Persistent Speed Penalties from Armor will continue as they are.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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We're going to be in code freeze tomorrow for the next build, and futzing with the speed penalties is unlikely to count as something that justifies committing during the freeze, so it'll likely be the build after next before we make any changes to speed penalties. But we'll certainly be talking about it around the office at length in the meantime, particularly based on the feedback on the alpha forum.
But, yes, right now heavy armor is -33.33% speed and medium is -16.67%.
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Goblin Squad Member
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He is right there with us Desna worshipers.I hope at least one feat line will let us run faster than a baseline character in street clothes.Domain: Travel
You do not want to be a Fighter, now do you. Butterflies.
Guilty as charged. Cleric of Desna will probably be my first character's first career.
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I started as Fighter, and travel from Sotterhill to Ostirburg with heavy armor, and almost cry like a little girl to return.
Now I use Cloth to travel and fight small packs 1 or 2, and put on my Heavy Armor only for though combats.
They could add improved/advanced/greater armor proficience feats and upgrade the benefits from them (heavy - lesser the movimentation penault, cloth - higher the protection), it is a way to balanced them...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Armor should always slow the wearer down based on the differential between each type. Sure, there can be skill levels that mitigate the movement speed loss, or armor materials that lower the encumbrance and movement speed loss.
The concern I have with fighters is that don't appear to have a charge ability (yet?). A charge ability is necessary, otherwise almost everyone will rely on ranged combat and melee based combatants will be at a disadvantage.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would argue (and often do) that Tas is the main character of the story, based on the criteria that a protagonist usually grows and becomes better during the course of a story.
No one grows more than Tas does in DragonLance (Chron/Leg).
Tasslehoff lives on, an eternal being of light forever in at least this fertile imagination.
So long as I live, so too does Tas. A superb instance of masterful character creation IMO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Armor should always slow the wearer down based on the differential between each type. Sure, there can be skill levels that mitigate the movement speed loss, or armor materials that lower the encumbrance and movement speed loss.
The concern I have with fighters is that don't appear to have a charge ability (yet?). A charge ability is necessary, otherwise almost everyone will rely on ranged combat and melee based combatants will be at a disadvantage.
Charge was functional in the game last Friday Night (August 8). One of the fighters in heavy armour successful used it to keep up with Ryan's mostly-naked "bad-guy" for a while during the Bonny Event (Not on camera)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Who doesn't love a fighter with a smart mouth and panche!
Rogues. You're stepping on our turf.
(PFO has a Swashbuckler armor line for rogues that give melee bonuses, light blades attack bonus is a rogue prereq, and precision/rapier attacks are dex-based. Add reflex save, uncanny dodge, evade and bluff...)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Fighters can already wield light melee weapons using Dex, but end up with a small problem in that they would need both Subterfuge and Martial achievements to advance all the training they need. Swapping between rapier and long bow might solve that problem.
This character would probably use Archer medium armor, which will both boost his longbow attacks and increase his foot speed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Who doesn't love a fighter with a smart mouth and panche!Rogues. You're stepping on our turf.
(PFO has a Swashbuckler armor line for rogues that give melee bonuses, light blades attack bonus is a rogue prereq, and precision/rapier attacks are dex-based. Add reflex save, uncanny dodge, evade and bluff...)
Hey, you rogues need a party member as a foil now, and two mouths are better than one!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Fighters can already wield light melee weapons using Dex, but end up with a small problem in that they would need both Subterfuge and Martial achievements to advance all the training they need. Swapping between rapier and long bow might solve that problem.
This character would probably use Archer medium armor, which will both boost his longbow attacks and increase his foot speed.
Yeah, if nothing in the fighter line appears, I'll be doing a bit of this, and a bit of what the stealthy redhead suggested - and like Kemedo, pulling on the heavy armor for specific circumstances (sieges maybe?)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Armor slowing effects or no, I just like to go faster than un-augmented characters in most MMOs. I hope at least one feat line will let us run faster than a baseline character in street clothes.
Note: I don't mind waiting if that's not part of MVP.
I expect/suggest/hope that monks and barbarians get this some way into their armor feat line. Not tabletop monk speeds, but a small increase (+10% ish). Certainly less than a mount.
But: In tabletop, barbarians and monks typically use their speed to get into melee, not for kiting. There would have to be a way to prevent evoker monks from dominating pvp and pve.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But: In tabletop, barbarians and monks typically use their speed to get into melee, not for kiting. There would have to be a way to prevent evoker monks from dominating pvp and pve.
Maybe they could make the monk's speed buff part of her dedication bonus. So a monk that is using only monk feats gets the special speed buff, but a monk that's mixing in other feats doesn't.