Never played a martial, want to dual shield

[Simon Legrande]

The Morphling wrote:

Simon Legrande wrote:

The Morphling wrote:

Eridan wrote:

Now BBT comes with his 'Shields are weapons'..

Shields are weapons, bro. You may whine about this if you please, but it doesn't change the rules.

Shields are shields. Spiked shields are weapons. If you can provide a link to something that says otherwise then I will accept that statement.

Do me a favor and type "Control+F" on this page and type in "shield."

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons

See if "Shield" appears anywhere in the table of "Weapons."

Thanks for providing a reason for never using that site. It lists the CRB as the source of the information. Nowhere in the CRB is a shield listed as a weapon. A shield can be used as a weapon and if it is it can't be used as a shield. A thing that can be used as something doesn't become that other thing. The CRB also explicitly states that if you want to use your magic shield as a magic weapon you have to enchant it separately.

[The Morphling]

(Wait, I just re-read the thread and you're arguing that Spiked Shields aren't shields? WOW... just... go read the rules some more, man. That's just... wow.)

[Simon Legrande]

The Morphling wrote:

(Wait, I just re-read the thread and you're arguing that Spiked Shields aren't shields? WOW... just... go read the rules some more, man. That's just... wow.)

Please take a look in the CRB. First find spiked shield on the weapons list, then find shield on the armor list, then see the description for shield spikes which says that your shield is turned into a martial weapon. Then come back and comment on my inability to read the rules.

[Scavion]

Simon Legrande wrote:

The Morphling wrote:

Eridan wrote:

Now BBT comes with his 'Shields are weapons'..

Shields are weapons, bro. You may whine about this if you please, but it doesn't change the rules.

Shields are shields. Spiked shields are weapons. If you can provide a link to something that says otherwise then I will accept that statement.

Open up your Core rulebook, page 142, "One Handed Melee Weapons", Look down till you see "Shield, Heavy 1d4 X2"

It's on the PRD as well.

[Ventnor]

If I was gonna do a 2-Shield character, I'd have him dual-wield Klars.

[Dimminsy]

Wow, I go to bed and to work then come back and the thread has exploded lol. I posted my assumptions at the top of my OP, but none-the-less I'll give some reason for those assumptions.

For those that are saying a shield can't be a weapon and a shield, James Jacobs would have to disagree with you. 8th post on the thread.

James Jacobs wrote:

"Costs +450 gp to masterwork an entire klar. Just like how it costs +450 to masterwork an entire spiked shield."

Referring to the 300 MW cost for a weapon and the 150 MW cost for an armor/shield. A more official link is the FAQ.

FAQ wrote:

"Table 6–4: Weapon (page 142) lists light shields, heavy shields, and spiked shields as martial weapons. The shield bash attacks entries (page 152) say that using a shield in this way is a "martial bludgeoning weapon."

Even without shield spikes, a shield is also a weapon. Now if you want to ban it in home games on principle, that's your prerogative. However, it should be noted that since the James Jacobs post, the only errata on shields that came out since then was the ruling that you can't two-hand a shield. I can't find the link though for some reason.

Since a Spike Shield is a weapon and a shield, it can be upgraded to a max of +10 weapon enchantments and +10 shield enchantments. It's like a double weapon, except one of the weapons is a shield instead. You use the weapon enchantment table for the weapon enchantments and the shield enchantment table for the shield enchantments.

The advantage Shield Mastery gives you is applying the +5 from the shield bonus to the weapon part of the shield, so you don't have to have +5 Spikes/+4 Bashing Heavy Shield and instead can have +1 (acting as +4 and overcoming the DR as a +4) Keen Speed Spikes/+4 Bashing Heavy Shield Shield for the same price of 75480 (20 Steel Shield + 10 Spikes + 450 MW + 50000 weapon +5 cost + 25000 shield +5 cost). If the shield's made out of adamantine, it would cost 78030 (the 450 MW costs turn into the 3000 adamantine material cost for a weapon since there's no "shield" cost and a shield is a weapon).

I would like to point out however that, again by James Jacobs (5th post) it was not the intention for a +1 Spiked Heavy Shield of Bashing to deal 2d6 (1d4 -> 1d6 -> 1d8 -> 2d6) damage. RAW, it's 2d6, but to be fair the Spiked and Bashing properties don't stack, so "only" 1d8 damage (can this only be piercing damage or also bludgeoning?). Doing 4.5 average damage instead of 7 average damage is worth the costs paid and brings it in line with other 1 handed weapons. However, I'd say Lead Blades and other magical effects would stack.

Hopefully of this didn't sound argumentative. I know this is a lot of debate on this subject. Just wanted to give the reasons why I'm going about this build the way I am.

EDIT: A nice little idea for those that want to focus on defense is adding the Defending property to the weapon side of the shield. If you have a cleric on your team or buy the appropriate caster level equivalent of the wand/scrolls, you can use Greater Magic Weapon to bump up your "spikes" to a +5 from +1, use the Defending property to convert the + to AC, then keep the +4/5 from the shield portion to damage still. Not too shabby.