Math and science skills


Advice


So, a number of times situations have come up where characters in my game have needed to know something which would be covered by a math or science skill.

For some sciences I know knowledges like nature, or even dungeoneering or geography can work. However this seems maybe not ideal(since, for example character would probably have to invest in both dungeoneering and geography to have a solid understanding of geology, and not everyone who is good with math should have to also be good at engineering, which for math related things, I have sometimes fallen back on that skill).

But, it seems like it would make more sense for their to actually be a mathematics skill and a science skill or two, as a lot of other RPGs do. I'm debating even on bringing some skills over from 3.5 Masque of the Red Death or D20 modern.

Is there an official ruling on how to handle these sorts of skills though? Or does anyone have a solid way that they handle such things when they come up?


Probably none of them. You may want to invent a new knowledge skill; the ones in the game are the 'practical' options to cover most active areas of concern for adventurers. Nothing stops a player and GM from inventing new ones or getting rid of/combining existing ones.


Knowledge (Engineering) covers a large amount of the practical aspects of Mathematics. It's not going to cover pure maths, but much of the mathematical focus of the ancienct world in real life was on geometry and aspects that would be.

Science is an odd one in a magical world. Mind you "Science" is a bit too broad a category to apply to knowledge in the real world. Craft (Alchemy), Knowledge (Engineering), Knowledge (Nature) and Heal all cover parts of the whole. But then that's the case in real life. A Rocket Scientist doesn't necessarily know much about Brain Surgery and vice versa.

Liberty's Edge

The existing Knowledge Skills seem sufficient for this to me. Knowledge (Engineering) for math seems both logical and sufficient, for example. Adding skills is also a bad call for many reasons, since any expansion of the skill list devalues skill points and makes the game more complicated in a way that's seldom useful.

And, partially for that reason, a lot of skills (including all Knowledge skills) involve multiple disparate fields of study. Arcana includes an exhaustive knowledge of dragons along with spells and magic, while Religion includes an exhaustive knowledge of the undead along with information on various churches and theology, and Linguistics includes forgery along with knowing many languages.

That said, one way to decouple particular skills from fields like math without adding skills is allowing multiple skills to be used for them. For example, the Trait that references being a math prodigy is tied to two Knowledge skills (Arcana and Engineering), so you could say that people could use either of those for math.

Additionally, the forthcoming Technology Guide will have additional, tech-based, skill uses for a number of skills, which might help codify which skills are used with which fields in areas like this.


I agree with Corvino. Expand KN: Engineering to KS: Science ... I also say this because it's very rarely taken, this might encourage it.


Keep in mind that the knowledge skills are incredibly broad. Someone who is good at knowing about bears also knows an equal amount about trees and pixies and minotaurs and giant spiders and hurricanes. If I want to be good at knowing about dragons, I also have to be good at knowing about golems, griffons, glyphs. I assume you get my point. No sense in making a new "rope use" level skill in "mathematics". Call it "engineering" and go from there.

Grand Lodge

I think making characters "waste" skill points in made up skills isn't good. For the most part, the game is balanced around expecting characters to be "of a certain height". If they're not tall enough to get on the ride because they've been investing in "imaginary height" then some things will be more challenging than they're actually supposed to be. Whether or not this is a problem is up for you and your gaming group to decide. And, of course, if this is a completely custom scenario, it may not be an issue at all, but still devalues the existing skills.

I'd say any "learned" character would already have the basics of understanding most of this stuff anyways. For example, anyone trained in architecture (or most engineering degrees) has to take calculus (in real life, I mean). Anyone that has Kn Engineering should be more than sufficient for math (as you've already pointed out). But I wouldn't go so far as to make up a new knowledge skill for it, I'd let it be just a straight int roll with probably a not too high DC. Also, I'd say Arcana would probably cover it, too, just based off of the "learnedness" of the character.


Yeah you are probably right MurphysParadoxt, and I may have to do so...
I like to run games that involve such things maybe more than most DMs, and have players that enjoy playing characters that are into more science oriented things. So they do things like build characters with the goal of trying to understand things (including things men were not meant to know...) through the scientific method. I think they'd really get mileage out of having skills that can nicely cover some of the things they want to do.

Still reading the other replies now...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Some examples of what you want the skill used for might help. For instance, figuring out the right angle on launching a trebuchet is an attack roll. If it has to do with construction, it's Knowledge Engineering. I really don't support the idea of a catchall Math and Science skill that would effectively sub for a lot of existing skills.


Hmmm, I hadn't thought of expanding engineering to more general science, but I might need to, it's been a very popular skill with my groups.
Another thing here and there that players have done is put skills into things like profession or craft and use them to cover things that aren't presently really (at least in an obvious way) covered. In one campaign I ran I had a player want to take research from d20 modern, and another want to make up a geology skill so I allowed it... but I haven't done that so far for this game I'm presently running.

The thing about skill points mentioned is a good one as well, and I do think that there aren't enough skill points to go around, especially for certain classes like the fighter with his sad 2 skill points (but... that's getting into a whole other debate).

Some examples are:
there was a situation where players found a teleportation circle, which teleported them into an isolated room with no windows or doors (why it existed is a long story and goes beyond the purpose of the thread) they wanted to figure out if by learning about the stone it was built from they could somehow determine where the room was actually built (of course that means identifying the stone, figuring out if it was imported or not, and then locating a region with the right type of stone, and figuring out in that region where it would be reasonable for such a place to be built).

There was one character as well, whom stumbled onto relics from a far more advanced civilization, one of them being a physics text-book, his character decided he wanted to basically seek out more of this strange... alien, knowledge, and understand it. Oh, and of course to actually do things with what he learned (potentially advancing technology for his own uses).

Presently I have an investigator, whom is convinced that elements of magic can be understood via scientific method, and wants to come up with experiments to prove (or disprove) his point.

There's also been a lot of knowledge engineering usage to do things like remove the rubble from a caved in area to get passed it safely, or dungeoneering to seek out and identify metals, but at least those things are easily accounted for.

One other thing that's come up is things being encrypted in mathematical code as well, which I kinda winged being covered with linguistics, which maybe is the right way to go anyhow in that case.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Knowledge (engineering) is generally used to reflect mathematic proficiency as well; Numerology as introduced in Occult Mysteries makes use of it for that purpose, and ru-shi dhampirs' innate gift for mathematics is reflected with a +2 racial bonus for it. Many of the skills are indeed quite broad and cover multiple aspects, if you would like to be good at mathematics without being good at related things, I would suggest ranks in Profession (mathematician) instead.

Personally, I think Knowledge (dungeoneering) would suffice for most aspects of geology, since Knowledge (geography) tends to be more region-based, though even if it didn't, remember that most Knowledge DCs that don't involve identifying a spell or a monster tend to be DC 15 or 20 at most (in particular, recognizing regional terrain features is DC 15), which is not terribly difficult to hit as long as it's a class skill and you take 10 on it. So, dropping a few ranks here and there will likely more than suffice, in my opinion.

Of course, feel free to consult your GM on the matter.

Edit: I would definitely agree on using linguistics to decipher code, mathematical or not.

Scarab Sages

Craft: Alchemy is going to cover basic chemistry, and Knowledge: Engingeering practical maths like Geometry and Physics.
Knowledge: Arcana might cover some more advanced or theoretical stuff depending on if you subscribe to Clark's Third Law.


Esoteric Sciences and Theoretical Math, I would put under Kn(Arcana). If you were using Dreamscarred Press stuff (or Psionics from a different sort), sciences of the mind could go under Kn(Psionics).


For your examples:

Where the stone in a room came from: Type of Stone would be knowledge(dungeoneering) or Knowledge(geography.) Where a certain type of stone comes from would be Knowledge(geography) or Profession(merchant.) Of course when you are dealing with powerful teleportation effects, you are also likely dealing with all sorts of other powerful magics that make knowing the above fairly useless for figuring out where you are.

Alien Technology: If you want to allow this, this is probably a very good case for a custom skill. However, realistically it probably has really now practical value for a character. Even with perfect knowledge of an advanced technology you probably can't make or even repair a high tech item. You would have to make the tools to make the tools to make the tools that you need.

Investigating Magic: The theory of magic is covered by spellcraft.

Unless you want to add something 'new' to your world, and have it understandable by PCs, you don't really need any new skills.


One of my favorite houserules is allowing all players an additional skillpoint per level that must be spent in either a Craft or Profession skill. Both of these have broad RP appeal but are rarely taken unless as specific prerequisites for something else. It also allows players to choose something like Profession (Astromomer) which can be really useful in niche circumstances without penalising them elsewhere.


I don't think it would be a good idea to make more knowledge skills (though it would be funny with a "general science"-skill). I'd try to squeeze it into the other knowledge skills.

When it comes to math, I would do an Intelligence check. If your players are in to it, make them do math for real and roleplay their intelligence.

Grand Lodge

Check out the Science! thread.


I'll go out on a limb here.

In the case of characters encountering Actual Science, I think it's fine for them to simply be unable to make knowledge checks.

Something like, say, renormalizing a quantum electrodynamical state function, or understanding UNIX code, or understanding the molecular biology of cell membranes, is just flat-out beyond the capabilities of Medieval-level fantasy world characters.

Now, once they encountered it, they could - possibly - begin learning about it, and certainly knowledge: engineering, arcana, nature, and so on could be leveraged a bit, but ultimately they'd simply have to invest in new skills (like mathematics, science (being generous here!), computer programming, and so on.) Is it a big skill tax? Yes! Of course! It's an entirely new world hithertoo unknown to the characters!

Another (possibly more generous) approach would be to allow players to use existing skills, but with DC caps which could evolve with exposure: for example, maybe be say that K: arcana provides the tools necessary to understand, say, quantum logic, but we cap it at DC 5 or 10... as the character is exposed to radical new ideas (maybe we need a sanity mechanic here as well!), he can make harder and harder checks.

Example: I ran a campaign in which the PCs were stranded (forever) on an alien world - the campaign was them learning to survive, meeting the natives, etc. until they could eventually set themselves up with a stronghold to thrive. The PCs were scientists, engineers, soldiers, and other types who might survive a crash of a research vessel. As the PCs encountered new life forms, technologies, and phenomena, their attainable DCs were capped, but as they explored, did research, and so on, they could access higher and higher caps - indeed, I treated it like "treasure": maybe the biologist managed to sequence an alien genome, so I'd give him a "+2" to his k:biology DCs concerning exozoological or other planetary matters.

That said, there *were* situations necessitating a new skill, K:psionics, since the planet was sentient (and psionic). Over time, the characters were allowed to buy ranks in K:psionics (no one could level and suddenly take 8 ranks and be a huge expert... ability to buy skill points was limited), and when their collective understanding of it was great enough, they could even take levels in a psionic prestige class.

Key point is that no one can master a wholly alien field (physics for wizards, magic for scientists) overnight - expertise should be meted out over time.

Grand Lodge

I highly doubt that science is completely ignored in places like Numeria, and Alkenstar.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:
I highly doubt that science is completely ignored in places like Numeria, and Alkenstar.

That's not the same thing as having a 20th century level of understanding. The situation in Numeria is more like that of a very sophisticated cargo plane from the 20th century going through a wormhole in the Devil's Triangle and crashing on a polynesian island in the 12th century pre-contact killing all aboard. Now the Numenorians have some understanding, but it's more in the matter of knowing enough to be truly dangerous to themselves and others as opposed to actually understanding it. Remember that most of that tech is running around wild and out of control.

Grand Lodge

Who is to say which areas of math and science have progressed in Golarion?

The existence of magic doesn't completely negate the need, or desire, to explore these subjects.

The realm of Golarion is vast, with many lands, planets, and planes of existence, all with varying degrees of societal, and scientific progress, access to magic, and other varied factors.

Even in the less fantastical regions, science and math are studied subjects.

Look, it is mentioned right in the available trait, Numerologist, and many other sources.

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