with the announcement of pathfinder unchained and the arrival of the advanced class guide, the only thing left is epic or a second edition, and i don't think a second edition is a good idea, and i really don't want to see something as lame as an advanced player's guide 2 or ultimate combat 5.
To me the most imporant goal of unchained isn't class rewrites (although the rogue and to a lesser of the extent the monk do need full BABS) it should be about making the game more playable levels 12-20, setting the foundation for epic and fixing systems like stealth that have an abundance of corner cases that expose the flaws in the system.
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Like psionics, I think this is an area that Paizo will leave to others to develop. The first question to answer is how far beyond 20th level you intend to go. If you plan to advance five or fewer additional levels beyond 20th, the existing rules are adequate. If you insist on potentially infinite advancement, a straight conversion of the D&D 3.0 Epic Level Handbook such as Jesse Jones came up with is what you are after. Little Red Goblin Games came up with an expansion that allowed a hard cap of level 30 as maximum level, but I think they are in the process of reworking it now.
E20 would be the most workable way to advance beyond level 20. The tricky part would be figuring out at what point you are considered to have "leveled" for the purpose of determining appropriate challenges.
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i thought Mythic Adventure was Paizo's answer for Epic Adventuring
There are no plans for epic. That is why we were given mythic rules. I would not mind seeing it as optional rules, but I dont expect for it to be a major project.
Actually, that would be a reason to defer doing epic levels. If levels 12-20 have problems, then those problems only get worse at level 21+.
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I would much rather get a guide to high-level play than a guide to epic-level play. The game does tend to slow down at such levels, both for players having to juggle modifiers and for GMs who spend hours statting major NPCs and struggle to design with all of the party's diverse abilities in mind. (You can get past the former somewhat by using more monsters since they're already stat-blocked, and there are some time-saving tricks to pumping out NPCs as well.) Besides, there are already guidelines for playing past 20th level in the CRB.
So count me in the "epic rules no, high level guide yes" camp. If you can solve the latter, then maybe the former becomes worth addressing.
i thought Mythic Adventure was Paizo's answer for Epic Adventuring
I agree. I'm pretty sure that the whole mythic thing was them actively AVOIDING epic levels. Because it allows you to grab all those sweet game breaking thing at a potentially low level as long as your GM gives you the mythic tiers.
Actually, that would be a reason to defer doing epic levels. If levels 12-20 have problems, then those problems only get worse at level 21+.
Further agreement
Generally, epic play is avoided since any disparities will only continue to grow. In normal play, I can get the right set of traits, feats, and stats together to make a fighter that has a will save that makes him more reliable than the wizard (Since he can also qualify for the reroll from improved iron will). Heck, since a lot of that stuff can be front loaded, he actually has the will save of a WIS-focused cleric until mid levels!
But after that, the ways to make up any differences (dex/wis/con boosting items, save boosting items, traits, feats, etc) become harder to come by. Thus, your bad save becomes unsalvageable, particularly with the more brutal DCs found in epic levels. The wizard will always die of poison, the fighter will always be dominated, and the barbarian will always be blasted with a nuclear fireball.
Making the crazy awesome abilities (yay swift warrior! yay mythic vital strike!) independent of the level system allows us to enjoy them while we can still make characters well rounded.
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There is still lots of design space for them to explore.
But yeah...as already mentioned...Mythic is pretty much Paizo's answer to Epic. I don't think they would do both now that they have already established that demigod level outsiders are CR 25-30
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It's gotten to the point where I cringe in anticipation of the hate wars everytime I see a thread like this.
There will always be ways to 'break' gameplay.
They exist now, their existence multiplied like bunnies with the release of Mythic, and they will never go away or be entirely fixed.
If epic rules are released, that's great. We should support the Paizo staff in that decision.
If epic rules are not released, that's great. We should support the Paizo staff in that decision.
Whether or not other people wish to use epic rules is nobody's business but theirs. The game is meant to be enjoyed. If they are enjoying themselves, what does it matter?
When Paizo released the Beginner's Box as part of their subscription, I simply temporarily suspended my subscription because I didn't want it, I had no use for it. But I can see that it is an invaluable resource to those who DO want it.
If such a thing as epic rules are released, I hope the opposition can gracefully do the same without kicking up such a fuss as to bring into question the decisions of Paizo, a collection of people who have given us all nothing but enjoyment and continued support.
We're all just having fun in our own way. And that's a pretty great thing.
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We're all just having fun in our own way. And that's a pretty great thing.
Didn't you get the memo? People aren't allow to have fun in their own way. If your way deviates from the standard of a fanbase, clearly it is badwrongfun and you are a dirty munchkin for wanting to play something you like. Because playing something you like will surely interfere with another person, and that person can't have you having fun with something that they like, right?
Don't worry, it's not too late to save you. You can still be reeducated and get better, with time, effort, and plenty of support.
:p
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Didn't you get the memo? People aren't allow to have fun in their own way. If your way deviates from the standard of a fanbase, clearly it is badwrongfun and you are a dirty munchkin for wanting to play something you like. Because playing something you like will surely interfere with another person, and that person can't have you having fun with something that they like, right?
Don't worry, it's not too late to save you. You can still be reeducated and get better, with time, effort, and plenty of support.
:p
Haha!
I always knew I was different...
Epic is just a word. Characters can do epic things at Level 11 (?) already. I like high level play, maybe not so much as a GM, because it's really a lot of work and the feel of the game can easily drift to an absolute non-epic or non-mythic rocket tag game/ grind to a halt with everybody at the table doing calculations.
"Epic" as a Paizo book should imo go in an absolute other direction than Epic 3.5: throw some of the rules, esp. micromanagement (even "mediomanagement" if this word would exist) over board and create a new feel/style of play. That could then go beyond Level 25.
If I did want to go above level 20 in the future, and my players did want that too, I would propably just cap classes at 20.
Or play the slowest EP Progression with mythic rules intertwined.
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/jranger
And before that simple (and very obscure) response gets me in any kind of trouble, the ACG covers 10 hybrid classes. There are theoretically 110 hybrid classes using the core rules alone. Factor in APG and the Ultimate books, and that number just climbs higher and higher.
Then there's Bestiaries. I don't believe for one minute that Paizo have explored the gamut of mythological and fantasy creatures.
Then there's something like Ultimate Adventurer, covering archetypes, skills, spells and magic items for all of those non-combat situations, as well as detailed rules for environments, weather, dungeoneering and so forth.
And that doesn't even get me started on the GMing speciality books like the oft-hoped-for high-level advice and structuring guide, more NPC/Monster Codex-style books, and supplementary material for Mythic Adventures.
There is a lot of design space still to explore and expand upon.
I might be up for an E20 type system, but the gaining of feats should occur at increasingly distant intervals.
That is exactly how I run it.
When Epic was first announced they talked about having a level and trade is for special abilities - then the ELH came out, and was nothing like the initial concepts, which I loved. So I started working on something then. It's pretty solid now.
I've thought about modifying it to an E15, but haven't really settled on exactly how I'd want to handle that.
I would welcome post-20th character levels (besides Mythic tiers). Our GM has said that the campaign arc he has planned will take us well past 20 levels, not including Mythic, which he does plan on using as well.
He's looked over the brief CRB rules on post 20, but I know he would appreciate a dedicated book on it, if it was ever made, as would I.
However, that being said, I am in agreement with several here that I would rather see a book dealing with and fixing the issues of 12-20, first.
Some say 12-20, or especially post 20 levels can't be fixed, as it's just an inherent issue with the design of the system. But I feel if anyone can do so, it would be Paizo.
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Epic didn't work.
Mythic works if you accept the fact that it generates turbo rocket rag superhero gameplay. I'm not sure if that's what people are expecting from 20+ games.
Face it tiger, the ruleset based on iterative attacks, reality-warping magic available on mid levels and three digit numbers just can't handle itself at higher levels.
Epic didn't work.
Mythic works if you accept the fact that in generates turbo rocket rag superhero gameplay. I'm not sure if that's what people are expecting from 20+ games.
Face it tiger, the ruleset based on iterative attacks, reality-warping magic available on mid levels and three digit numbers just can't handle itself at higher levels.
This...
The only way to not have rocket tag is to have a gentleman's agreement between the players and the GM. Otherwise by round 3 the odds are heavily in someone's favor if the fight is not over.
The only way to not have rocket tag is to have a gentleman's agreement between the players and the GM. Otherwise by round 3 the odds are heavily in someone's favor if the fight is not over.Really, Mythic by its very nature will take that gentleman's agreement, break it across its knee after a good spanking, then jump up and down on the pieces like a Saturday morning cartoon character while pointing at you and laughing. Then it will collect your tears, drink them, spit them back out into your face, and waltz off into the sunset singing the song of its people.
So to speak.
You can not power attack, and not take mythic feats such as mythic vital strike. Yeah I know it defeats the purpose though. I want to use them, but I might have to modify them first. I don't mind rocket tag, but still...
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Epic didn't work.
Mythic works if you accept the fact that it generates turbo rocket rag superhero gameplay. I'm not sure if that's what people are expecting from 20+ games.
Face it tiger, the ruleset based on iterative attacks, reality-warping magic available on mid levels and three digit numbers just can't handle itself at higher levels.
That's not universally true. Never had a problem running or playing in games that run into high levels.
Epic didn't work.
Mythic works if you accept the fact that it generates turbo rocket rag superhero gameplay. I'm not sure if that's what people are expecting from 20+ games.
Face it tiger, the ruleset based on iterative attacks, reality-warping magic available on mid levels and three digit numbers just can't handle itself at higher levels.
Idk about rocket tag. Mirror dodge for the arcanes. Guardian Absorb blow stacks with itself which is pretty ridiculous.
The only real issue I see in mythics is Mythic vital strike. That could use a rework. Perhaps it should allow people to vital strike on AOOs and charges and only double normal damaged (instead of x4)
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Rocket tag tends become the problem when the whole group, GM included, buy into the "offense is the best defense" philosophy. When everybody is a glass ninja no wonder the game devolves into "whoever wins initiative wins the fight."
It is very possible to make characters that have a more balanced approach to offense and defense, that are still effective at their jobs, and in those cases you can have satisfying battles at high levels just fine.
You can also go too far the other direction, and build for pure defense, which turns high level fights into multi-hour slogs.
(I'm not judging any of the above playstyles - I know which I prefer, but if you're having fun you're doing it right. Conversely, if your style of build always leads to rocket tag and you don't enjoy rocket tag, you might reconsider your build philosophy. Sticking to a build "truism" at the expense of your own fun is self-defeating.)
I'd love to see a true post 20 book. However, I don't think it's likely now. I think Mythic was the attempt to do that. I would like to see a guide for high level play, that gives tips and suggestions for levels 15+. The game plays very differently at those levels and it can come as a bit of a shock. They could include slightly more robust post-20 rules in such a book, maybe taking you up to 25 or so without "Levels to Infinity!"
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I think it's more a case of 'unless the enemy is a complete offensive putz because he's built to be so defensive, the game is rocket tag.' Not because everyone is a glass cannon...it's because the standard offensive choices turn joe into a cannon, and default defenses into glass, without even any optimizing.
I mean, seriously, Mythic Vital Strike is a no brainer. you get the equivalent of a full attack in one swing. Sure, you get fewer crits, but you're almost guaranteed a hit.
But when you're dealing base 50 pts a swing, and then heap stuff on top of that, and multiply by four, and then maybe a crit or an extra swing on top of it...
That's not even optimizing, it's just common sense. 6-7x base damage will turn ANYTHING into glass. It's save or die with swords, with the save being your initiative roll.
==+Aelryinth
There are no plans for epic. That is why we were given mythic rules. I would not mind seeing it as optional rules, but I dont expect for it to be a major project.
this is not true, asked this question before when mythic was annouced, and JB speciically said, that mythic is not meant to be a replacement for epic, which is why they didn't call it epic.
i did say, that i assume that pathfinder unchained would fix the 12-20 problem, because to me that is the biggest design limitation of 3.0 and by neccassity 3.5, they were not really playtested and designed to run well past 12 and that inherent limitation was imported into pathfinder.
do we really need 110 classes? or 100 archtypes?
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No.... they've said time and time again that Mythic is their "epic". They won't be doing Epic, because they did Mythic.
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Mythic was created specifically to allow them to do an epic level AP. They knew they wanted to face off against a CR 30 (originally 35) demon lord, and instead of doing epic rules, they did Mythic. Just because Mythic doesn't automatically preclude a future Epic rules release, I think it says something that they chose not to do it when they decided to support their epic content with a completely different system.
Epic leveling is not clean. There is a direct mathematical reason that it's a 20 level game using a 20 sided die, and with all of the static bonuses available you already begin to lose the randomness inherent in the system and start playing in a near automatic pass or fail environment as early as level 14 or so. For epic rules to actually be effective, they have to actually change the normal rules, and that makes them less accessible. Rules that aren't as accessible and which are targeted at a portion of the player base that research has indicated is both a very small percentage of total players and an area where growth isn't likely to bring in new customers just isn't a wise investment of time or money. I suspect that if they do put out "true" epic rules, it'll be a tip of the hat to their fans as they turn out the light on this edition of Pathfinder, which hopefully won't be for some time to come.
Rocket tag tends become the problem when the whole group, GM included, buy into the "offense is the best defense" philosophy. When everybody is a glass ninja no wonder the game devolves into "whoever wins initiative wins the fight."
It is very possible to make characters that have a more balanced approach to offense and defense, that are still effective at their jobs, and in those cases you can have satisfying battles at high levels just fine.
You can also go too far the other direction, and build for pure defense, which turns high level fights into multi-hour slogs.
(I'm not judging any of the above playstyles - I know which I prefer, but if you're having fun you're doing it right. Conversely, if your style of build always leads to rocket tag and you don't enjoy rocket tag, you might reconsider your build philosophy. Sticking to a build "truism" at the expense of your own fun is self-defeating.)
I'd love to see a true post 20 book. However, I don't think it's likely now. I think Mythic was the attempt to do that. I would like to see a guide for high level play, that gives tips and suggestions for levels 15+. The game plays very differently at those levels and it can come as a bit of a shock. They could include slightly more robust post-20 rules in such a book, maybe taking you up to 25 or so without "Levels to Infinity!"
This (with the exception of the last sentence) is remarkably similar to (and shorter than) anything I would have written. Also, agreed with, fully. (Though I'd totally want the "infinite progression forever" as that's my kind of thing. :D)
For the record, my own epic games have consistently run very smoothly. As in, when put into practice, the rules (though oft broken and silly) do end up functioning well enough in my experiences (always as a GM, mind, never as. a player) to run an incredibly cool game and do rather phenomenally fun things that aren't possible in the standard rules.
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Well...I think the obvious point is, if Mythic and epic both existed, a character with 10 tiers and, lets say 30 class levels, would be far far above the power level of any demigod in the setting. I think the devs have already set those power levels, and any further adjustment would mean a new edition
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Honestly I think they should release a book that addresses on how to run a challenging level 14 to 20 campaign. They should also include how to run a challenging adventure for advanced players so we get less threads on the forums about "this is too strong, I have to ban this, all my players are OP optimizers, etc."
A book about above 20 play really isn’t that necessary in my opinion but unless you have a lot of experience high level play and advanced veteran players are a bigger concern to address.
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do we really need 110 classes? or 100 archtypes?
"Need"? No. "Enjoy"? Definitely. A lot more than high level content.
I haven't played Mythic. but it appeals to me for precisely the reason that I could play an "epic" game at 1st level, or thereabouts.
For those like me that prefer low-mid level play, more character concepts to choose from is preferable to content that won't see use.
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Honestly I think they should release a book that addresses on how to run a challenging level 14 to 20 campaign. They should also include how to run a challenging adventure for advanced players so we get less threads on the forums about "this is too strong, I have to ban this, all my players are OP optimizers, etc."
A book about above 20 play really isn’t that necessary in my opinion but unless you have a lot of experience high level play and advanced veteran players are a bigger concern to address.
A GM's guide for high level strategy and example encounters would be an excellent tool, and probably a fairly popular item. I think one of the reasons many campaigns peter out around 12th level isn't just that players get bored or lose steam, it's that the complexity of the new dynamics are a bit much for some GM's to handle. They can't just have their monsters swing away anymore, and if they do it seems like their players are crazy OP. Something that explained to those GM's that the least threatening thing about a pit fiend is his natural attacks, and why, and then showed what an encounter against such a beast should look like in detail, would be good.
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do we really need 110 classes? or 100 archtypes?"Need"? No. "Enjoy"? Definitely. A lot more than high level content.
I haven't played Mythic. but it appeals to me for precisely the reason that I could play an "epic" game at 1st level, or thereabouts.
For those like me that prefer low-mid level play, more character concepts to choose from is preferable to content that won't see use.
Very much this. Half of my players really prefer gritty campaigns where the BBEG is maybe only 12th level or so. The other half just want to try out cool new things and it really doesn't matter for them what level that happens at. For them, having that plethora of unique core classes, archetypes, and a robust portfolio of awesome 3pp materials is way more valuable than being able to keep tacking on levels beyond 20th.
During a recent adventure, one of my groups managed to lay low Cthulu. As far as they're concerned, it really can't get more "epic" than that.