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I miss the 3.5 Assassin that had spellcasting. D-Door, True Strike, and Invisibility are really useful for that kind of character. Even though it might not have made for the most optimized of characters, it was still fun to play, and it was certainly not the worst character you could make.
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I miss the 3.5 Assassin that had spellcasting. D-Door, True Strike, and Invisibility are really useful for that kind of character. Even though it might not have made for the most optimized of characters, it was still fun to play.
I introduce you to the red mantis assassin
While very feat intensive... it is actually a cool prestige class...
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I miss the 3.5 Assassin that had spellcasting. D-Door, True Strike, and Invisibility are really useful for that kind of character. Even though it might not have made for the most optimized of characters, it was still fun to play, and it was certainly not the worst character you could make.
Trust me on this. Psychic Assassin (and Psychic Rogue) were where it was at.
I miss the 3.5 Assassin that had spellcasting. D-Door, True Strike, and Invisibility are really useful for that kind of character. Even though it might not have made for the most optimized of characters, it was still fun to play.I introduce you to the red mantis assassin
While very feat intensive... it is actually a cool prestige class...
I suppose TWF Ranger -> Crimson Assassin would be nice.
I suppose TWF Ranger -> Crimson Assassin would be nice.I miss the 3.5 Assassin that had spellcasting. D-Door, True Strike, and Invisibility are really useful for that kind of character. Even though it might not have made for the most optimized of characters, it was still fun to play.I introduce you to the red mantis assassin
While very feat intensive... it is actually a cool prestige class...
Lol yeah. or a Human rogue who grabs Combat Trick (Weapon Focus), uses racial feat to get EWP( Sawtooth Sabre), first level feat to get Alertness, and at level 3 grab Two WEapon fighting.
Or be any other race and grab Alertness at level 5 xD
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Why do those who want to defend Rogues seem compelled to blame the bearers of bad news? I.e., Poster X notes that Rogues have been replaced in their erstwhile monopoly on trap finding while Poster Y points out that their skills are inferior, along with other class features, compared to say a Bard. Our intrepid defenders then shoot those who dare to present facts with the "you aren't playing them right" or "your DM isn't doing their job to make the Rogue shine."
Rogues are subpar because of the dozens of reasons posters before me pointed out upthread. Rogues are subpar because Paizo dropped the ball for whatever reason(s)- blame them and not those pointing these sad facts out.
Mainly for the Sneak attack.
Or you can go Warpriest and have some awesome church flavor xD.
A lot of cool options... oh and the whole turning into a mantis thing is awesome!!!
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If there was an equivalent item that gave you 25/50/75% immunity to enemy spells, it still wouldn't be as crippling because now they just use spells that affect allies, create allies, or change reality around you without directly affecting you.
For the same price as the 75% immunity to rogues, you can get SR 19 on your armor, giving you 75% immunity to 4th level casters.
Most of those skills aren't essential, though. They'd be nice to have, and I would invest in them if Fighters got 4+int like I think they should, but still, they aren't essential.What good are skill ranks to a Fighter, though? I can think of 2 or 3 skills that are absolutely essential, and 2+int is usually enough to cover that. However, I do agree that Fighters should get at least 4+int.Pretty much... but thye atleast have some skill points xDDon't Cavaliers have those same exact problems?I do still want to know why people think Fighters are as bad as Rogues. Considering that most Pathfinder games don't go very far beyond level 10, why are fighters a bad choice?Make a will save?....
Oh... and I am a flying Kitty xD
UMD, Perception, swim, climb, or acrobatics, any of the social skills, sense motive, even disable device.
There are a lot of places you can stick skill points on any character and they would be useful (though acrobatics very much less so due to scaling).
A lot of skills become essential if you're creating an actual character instead of a mechanic, though. For example: a mounted steppe warrior needs Ride, Handle Animal, and Survival (plains). A viking needs Profession (sailor) and Swim, and a pirate needs those plus either Climb or Acrobatics to get around in the rigging. A mercenary should have Profession (soldier) and probably Heal, as well as Craft (armor), and Craft (weapons) to keep his equipment in order. A knight needs Ride, Knowledge (nobility), and possibly Diplomacy. Any adventurer should have a good Perception check. And while not every fighter needs Intimidate, it's pretty iconic for the big tough types to be good at that.
As I said before, I do agree that Fighters should get more skill points, but the fact that Fighters get few skill points doesn't make it a shitty class. In fact, I'd argue that having less skill points forces you to be more creative because you can't just roll your d20 to get favorable results when roleplaying outside of combat, you have to come up with a way to work around your lack of social skills or what have you in order to get things done. This makes for far more interesting roleplaying than:
Bard: "I explain why the NPC should side with me."DM: "Okay, roll for Diplomacy"
Bard: *rolls d20* "I got a 27"
DM: "The NPC decides that you have a good point, and he/she decides to help you"
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If there was an equivalent item that gave you 25/50/75% immunity to enemy spells, it still wouldn't be as crippling because now they just use spells that affect allies, create allies, or change reality around you without directly affecting you.For the same price as the 75% immunity to rogues, you can get SR 19 on your armor, giving you 75% immunity to 4th level casters.
By spending even less you can buy +1 full plate and have near 95% immunity to low level characters with low strength scores.
In fact, I'd argue that having less skill points forces you to be more creative because you can't just roll your d20 to get favorable results when roleplaying outside of combat, you have to come up with a way to work around your lack of social skills or what have you in order to get things done.
The issue with that is, unless you ignore the rules, no matter how well you roleplay you still need to make you a check to do things. You can make an hour long (real time, not game time) impassioned speech that moves the DM to tears with the beauty of your prose and delivery, but then you go on to roll for a grand total of 11 on your diplomacy check; you still failed to convince anyone in game without DM fiat.
You can say your character can do anything or is anything, but that doesn't matter for shit if you can't back it up mechanically.
If there was an equivalent item that gave you 25/50/75% immunity to enemy spells, it still wouldn't be as crippling because now they just use spells that affect allies, create allies, or change reality around you without directly affecting you.For the same price as the 75% immunity to rogues, you can get SR 19 on your armor, giving you 75% immunity to 4th level casters.
That seems infinitely more useful than countering a weak class feature of a poorly-balanced class.
As I said before, I do agree that Fighters should get more skill points, but the fact that Fighters get few...Most of those skills aren't essential, though. They'd be nice to have, and I would invest in them if Fighters got 4+int like I think they should, but still, they aren't essential.What good are skill ranks to a Fighter, though? I can think of 2 or 3 skills that are absolutely essential, and 2+int is usually enough to cover that. However, I do agree that Fighters should get at least 4+int.Pretty much... but thye atleast have some skill points xDDon't Cavaliers have those same exact problems?I do still want to know why people think Fighters are as bad as Rogues. Considering that most Pathfinder games don't go very far beyond level 10, why are fighters a bad choice?Make a will save?....
Oh... and I am a flying Kitty xD
UMD, Perception, swim, climb, or acrobatics, any of the social skills, sense motive, even disable device.
There are a lot of places you can stick skill points on any character and they would be useful (though acrobatics very much less so due to scaling).
A lot of skills become essential if you're creating an actual character instead of a mechanic, though. For example: a mounted steppe warrior needs Ride, Handle Animal, and Survival (plains). A viking needs Profession (sailor) and Swim, and a pirate needs those plus either Climb or Acrobatics to get around in the rigging. A mercenary should have Profession (soldier) and probably Heal, as well as Craft (armor), and Craft (weapons) to keep his equipment in order. A knight needs Ride, Knowledge (nobility), and possibly Diplomacy. Any adventurer should have a good Perception check. And while not every fighter needs Intimidate, it's pretty iconic for the big tough types to be good at that.
Except if you allow "Roleplay" or compensate for lack of skills, you just made it so that the character who put points into skills like diplomacy, Bluff, and intimidate wasted his points and invalidated his choice... additionally, just because someone wanted to play a diplomamancer doesn't mean they are naturally very good speakers...
when i have people RP diplomacy with me, how well they argue effects their attitude of them. if they just want to roll for it, then they're treated as hostile. it doesn't take much to jut have their stuff equal to what it would normally be.
Except if you allow "Roleplay" or compensate for lack of skills, you just made it so that the character who put points into skills like diplomacy, Bluff, and intimidate wasted his points and invalidated his choice...How so? I don't see why rolling Diplomacy or Bluff wouldn't still be important when it would be difficult to convince someone just by roleplaying it out. I'd say that if the DC were above 15, then it should be done with a roll. If not, it should be roleplayed.
Below 15 is trivial. It's like slightly above the difficulty of asking a random stranger guy on the street how to get somewhere nearby. I'm not sure how saying that you allow Fighters to talk to random people about the weather without a roll helps them come up with creative solutions.
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when i have people RP diplomacy with me, how well they argue effects their attitude of them. if they just want to roll for it, then they're treated as hostile. it doesn't take much to jut have their stuff equal to what it would normally be.
So the PLAYER who has a high charisma will be the face, not the CHARACTER? Regardless of what the character sheets say? That seems pretty crappy to me, seeing that pretty much means the guy who isn't very good at social situations in the first place (IRL) is shafted from playing social characters in game. That would be like saying that, if a guy can go and perform judo IRL, then his guy in game can do so as well, even though he is a mage with 10 str...
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when i have people RP diplomacy with me, how well they argue effects their attitude of them. if they just want to roll for it, then they're treated as hostile. it doesn't take much to jut have their stuff equal to what it would normally be.So the PLAYER who has a high charisma will be the face, not the CHARACTER? Regardless of what the character sheets say? That seems pretty crappy to me, seeing that pretty much means the guy who isn't very good at social situations in the first place (IRL) is shafted from playing social characters in game. That would be like saying that, if a guy can go and perform judo IRL, then his guy in game can do so as well, even though he is a mage with 10 str...
To play devil's advocate, it would also balance the game tremendously because only people with real magic or supernatural powers in real life would get to play full casters.
To play devil's advocate, it would also balance the game tremendously because only people with real magic or supernatural powers in real life would get to play full casters.when i have people RP diplomacy with me, how well they argue effects their attitude of them. if they just want to roll for it, then they're treated as hostile. it doesn't take much to jut have their stuff equal to what it would normally be.So the PLAYER who has a high charisma will be the face, not the CHARACTER? Regardless of what the character sheets say? That seems pretty crappy to me, seeing that pretty much means the guy who isn't very good at social situations in the first place (IRL) is shafted from playing social characters in game. That would be like saying that, if a guy can go and perform judo IRL, then his guy in game can do so as well, even though he is a mage with 10 str...
true true true xD
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the example you gave isn't a trap by the rules but just a weird scenario... if it isn't magical or doesn't need perceptions & disable device then once again, it doesn't require a rogue or even a trap-finder at all. In fact it's not even called a trap by the rules.stuffbecause traps follow this flow chart
1. roll perception, if succeed go to 2., if fail go to 3.
2. roll disable device, if succeed go to 4. if fail go to 3.
3. take damage/something bad happens. if you live go to 4. if you die punch the GM(lol).
4. you can continue with your adventure.
Except I've already shown that isn't the case with example trap I gave. When there is a simple trap like you describe, it takes only a few seconds to resolve, so how does that hurt your fun? And when it's as I described, where the trap has to be dealt with in the middle of combat, then if you're not playing the trap finder, you're probably fighting the statues. So again, how does that hurt your fun?
In my old school approach step 3 ends with "roll initiative as guards and/or monsters come running.
Step 4 is attack guards/monsters unawares.
In the previous examples, when the fighter was sent crawling along the wall over a covered pit trap, this would happen:
GM: "As you stick your toe out to reach the edge of the pit trap, the bugbear charges out of hiding and attacks the fighter with a greataxe as he clings to the wall. Meanwhile, the goblins behind you have had time to light their Molotov cocktails. Roll initiative.
And the wand of mount: How does the hooves on stone or the screams of a dying horse not attract every creature on the level? I mean come on, its free meat!
Don't look at what your character can do but what it can do for the party.
When I play a rogue I have a crazy high dex and stealth bonus. (+35 stealth for my 11th level PFS rogue) I scout way ahead of the party, continuously looking for traps, mostly for myself. When I find bad guys or traps, I report back.
Someone said earlier that this is a game of action economy. This is where the rogue comes in. Now that the rogue has identified the target and disabled any traps (or guards) that stand in the way, we apply short term buffs before the fight starts. Unlimited buff rounds before the boss fight can make all the difference. Scouting can also save casters on spells being wasted or allow an opening volley of fireballs before the fighter gets in the way.
I agree that the scout role can be filled by other classes. I did it nicely with a Trapper/Wizard/Arcane Archer. Just don't discount how valuable a role it is within the party. And it has to be done with maxed out stealth, perception and disable device on the same character.
So since I am a w1z4D does that mean I can do magic???? :)
So since I am a w1z4D does that mean I can do magic???? :)
Prestidigitation lets you do "minor tricks" so anyone who knows how to do card tricks irl can use it in game. Similarly anyone with a flashlight can cast Light and anyone with an improvised explosive device at the table may cast fireball.
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the example you gave isn't a trap by the rules but just a weird scenario... if it isn't magical or doesn't need perceptions & disable device then once again, it doesn't require a rogue or even a trap-finder at all. In fact it's not even called a trap by the rules.stuffbecause traps follow this flow chart
1. roll perception, if succeed go to 2., if fail go to 3.
2. roll disable device, if succeed go to 4. if fail go to 3.
3. take damage/something bad happens. if you live go to 4. if you die punch the GM(lol).
4. you can continue with your adventure.
Except I've already shown that isn't the case with example trap I gave. When there is a simple trap like you describe, it takes only a few seconds to resolve, so how does that hurt your fun? And when it's as I described, where the trap has to be dealt with in the middle of combat, then if you're not playing the trap finder, you're probably fighting the statues. So again, how does that hurt your fun?
In my old school approach step 3 ends with "roll initiative as guards and/or monsters come running.
Step 4 is attack guards/monsters unawares.
In the previous examples, when the fighter was sent crawling along the wall over a covered pit trap, this would happen:
GM: "As you stick your toe out to reach the edge of the pit trap, the bugbear charges out of hiding and attacks the fighter with a greataxe as he clings to the wall. Meanwhile, the goblins behind you have had time to light their Molotov cocktails. Roll initiative.
And the wand of mount: How does the hooves on stone or the screams of a dying horse not attract every creature on the level? I mean come on, its free meat!
Don't look at what your character can do but what it can do for the party.
When I play a rogue I have a crazy high dex and stealth bonus. (+35 stealth for my 11th level PFS rogue) I scout way ahead of the party, continuously looking for traps,...
1) Meta-Gamey Much?? That is what Perception is for... If you just arbitrarily decide there are suddenly monsters there then you are just meta-gaming...
2) The rogue is no better than any other class at scouting... also, Clairvoyance/Clairaudiance/ Scry/ Mage's Eye are really good at scouting too... Oh and a familiar is also good at scouting... Funny thing about things like bats... they are DAMN good at stealth and are better than the rogue at noticing certain threats (like invisible things...)
Oh and a familiar is also good at scouting... Funny thing about things like bats... they are DAMN good at stealth and are better than the rogue at noticing certain threats (like invisible things...)
Also who is immediately suspicious upon seeing a "harmless animal" in its natural habitat?
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...the example you gave isn't a trap by the rules but just a weird scenario... if it isn't magical or doesn't need perceptions & disable device then once again, it doesn't require a rogue or even a trap-finder at all. In fact it's not even called a trap by the rules.stuffbecause traps follow this flow chart
1. roll perception, if succeed go to 2., if fail go to 3.
2. roll disable device, if succeed go to 4. if fail go to 3.
3. take damage/something bad happens. if you live go to 4. if you die punch the GM(lol).
4. you can continue with your adventure.
Except I've already shown that isn't the case with example trap I gave. When there is a simple trap like you describe, it takes only a few seconds to resolve, so how does that hurt your fun? And when it's as I described, where the trap has to be dealt with in the middle of combat, then if you're not playing the trap finder, you're probably fighting the statues. So again, how does that hurt your fun?
In my old school approach step 3 ends with "roll initiative as guards and/or monsters come running.
Step 4 is attack guards/monsters unawares.
In the previous examples, when the fighter was sent crawling along the wall over a covered pit trap, this would happen:
GM: "As you stick your toe out to reach the edge of the pit trap, the bugbear charges out of hiding and attacks the fighter with a greataxe as he clings to the wall. Meanwhile, the goblins behind you have had time to light their Molotov cocktails. Roll initiative.
And the wand of mount: How does the hooves on stone or the screams of a dying horse not attract every creature on the level? I mean come on, its free meat!
Don't look at what your character can do but what it can do for the party.
When I play a rogue I have a crazy high dex and stealth bonus. (+35 stealth for my 11th level PFS rogue) I scout way ahead of the
1) No dungeon writing 101. set the guards near the traps, attack when intruders are most vulnerable.
2) yes, my wizard does that too. except my familiar is crap against guards and traps so I have it accompany the rogue so they can aid each other.
As I said before, I do agree that Fighters should get more skill points, but the fact that Fighters get few skill points doesn't make it a s*@#ty class. In fact, I'd argue that having less skill points forces you to be more creative because you can't just roll your d20 to get favorable results when roleplaying outside of combat, you have to come up with a way to work around your lack of social skills or what have you in order to get things done. This makes for far more interesting roleplaying than:
Bard: "I explain why the NPC should side with me."DM: "Okay, roll for Diplomacy"
Bard: *rolls d20* "I got a 27"
DM: "The NPC decides that you have a good point, and he/she decides to help you"
I always make the players roleplay things like that out, and give them modifiers on the roll based on how creative and/or plausible their argument is. They still have to make the skill roll, because it's the character who has the skill, not the player. But they get to roleplay too, and have an incentive to really think about what they want their character to say.
I really like this kind of approach, because I think it's really boring to just let the dice decide everything that happens, rather than allowing the players some agency in a roleplaying situation. If your argument has merit, you should have a much better chance at convincing someone with Diplomacy.
So since I am a w1z4D does that mean I can do magic???? :)Prestidigitation lets you do "minor tricks" so anyone who knows how to do card tricks irl can use it in game. Similarly anyone with a flashlight can cast Light and anyone with an improvised explosive device at the table may cast fireball.
I agree, it's way better to have a human bard go around convincing everyone that he's a purple elephant than it is for a fighter with no skill ranks in diplomacy to convince someone that he hasn't showed up to kill them, he just wants to ask them a couple of mundane questions.
I really like this kind of approach, because I think it's really boring to just let the dice decide everything that happens, rather than allowing the players some agency in a roleplaying situation. If your Gunslinger has talent, you should have a much better chance at shooting someone with your x to hit A.C. in real life. Our group gets bonus points when the real player takes charge of agency and actually hits one of the other volunteer players with his shot.
I agree, it's way better to have a human bard go around convincing everyone that he's a purple elephant than it is for a fighter with no skill ranks in diplomacy to convince someone that he hasn't showed up to kill them, he just wants to ask them a couple of mundane questions.So since I am a w1z4D does that mean I can do magic???? :)Prestidigitation lets you do "minor tricks" so anyone who knows how to do card tricks irl can use it in game. Similarly anyone with a flashlight can cast Light and anyone with an improvised explosive device at the table may cast fireball.
I'm not in favor of rolling diplomacy for trivial things as you seem to think I am. I'm just confused by how hand-waving trivial checks that have no real importance to anything helps the fighter be useful and come up with clever solutions to problems as you originally seemed to be saying.
I agree, it's way better to have a human bard go around convincing everyone that he's a purple elephant than it is for a fighter with no skill ranks in diplomacy to convince someone that he hasn't showed up to kill them, he just wants to ask them a couple of mundane questions.So since I am a w1z4D does that mean I can do magic???? :)Prestidigitation lets you do "minor tricks" so anyone who knows how to do card tricks irl can use it in game. Similarly anyone with a flashlight can cast Light and anyone with an improvised explosive device at the table may cast fireball.
That would be a vry tough DC to beat....
A Bard who could beat that DC is pretty much the type of speaker who could convince you of anything... That is a bard who rolls 40+ with ease...
I really like this kind of approach, because I think it's really boring to just let the dice decide everything that happens, rather than allowing the players some agency in a roleplaying situation. If your Gunslinger has talent, you should have a much better chance at shooting someone with your x to hit A.C. in real life. Our group gets bonus points when the real player takes charge of agency and actually hits one of the other volunteer players with his shot.
I really like this kind of approach, because I think it's really boring to let our arguments stand for themselves, rather than putting up strawmen in a debate situation. If you have no arguing talent, you should have a much better chance of ridiculing someone with your stupid strawman that really doesn't prove anything, but makes your opponent's point seem ridiculous. You should get bonus points when people favorite the strawman you posted because that means it obviously is working as intended.
I'm not in favor of rolling diplomacy for trivial things as you seem to think I am. I'm just confused by how hand-waving trivial checks that have no real importance to anything helps the fighter be useful and come up with clever solutions to problems as you originally seemed to be saying.I agree, it's way better to have a human bard go around convincing everyone that he's a purple elephant than it is for a fighter with no skill ranks in diplomacy to convince someone that he hasn't showed up to kill them, he just wants to ask them a couple of mundane questions.So since I am a w1z4D does that mean I can do magic???? :)Prestidigitation lets you do "minor tricks" so anyone who knows how to do card tricks irl can use it in game. Similarly anyone with a flashlight can cast Light and anyone with an improvised explosive device at the table may cast fireball.
Yeah, I did a poor job of arguing my point in the post I originally made, which is why I deleted it.
Yeah, I did a poor job of arguing my point in the post I originally made, which is why I deleted it.I'm not in favor of rolling diplomacy for trivial things as you seem to think I am. I'm just confused by how hand-waving trivial checks that have no real importance to anything helps the fighter be useful and come up with clever solutions to problems as you originally seemed to be saying.I agree, it's way better to have a human bard go around convincing everyone that he's a purple elephant than it is for a fighter with no skill ranks in diplomacy to convince someone that he hasn't showed up to kill them, he just wants to ask them a couple of mundane questions.So since I am a w1z4D does that mean I can do magic???? :)Prestidigitation lets you do "minor tricks" so anyone who knows how to do card tricks irl can use it in game. Similarly anyone with a flashlight can cast Light and anyone with an improvised explosive device at the table may cast fireball.
I didn't notice you got rid of it. That aside, I like the idea of offering a small roll bonus based on rp and approach (maybe up to 5 if really well done). The implication of some (not referring to you or anyone in particular) that if you don't feel like roleplaying out every conversation you fail no matter what or have an arbitrarily higher DC is what annoys me.
I didn't notice you got rid of it. That aside, I like the idea of offering a small roll bonus based on rp and approach (maybe up to 5 if really well done). The implication of some (not referring to you or anyone in particular) that if you don't feel like roleplaying out every conversation you fail no matter what or have an arbitrarily higher DC is what annoys me.Yeah, I did a poor job of arguing my point in the post I originally made, which is why I deleted it.I'm not in favor of rolling diplomacy for trivial things as you seem to think I am. I'm just confused by how hand-waving trivial checks that have no real importance to anything helps the fighter be useful and come up with clever solutions to problems as you originally seemed to be saying.I agree, it's way better to have a human bard go around convincing everyone that he's a purple elephant than it is for a fighter with no skill ranks in diplomacy to convince someone that he hasn't showed up to kill them, he just wants to ask them a couple of mundane questions.So since I am a w1z4D does that mean I can do magic???? :)Prestidigitation lets you do "minor tricks" so anyone who knows how to do card tricks irl can use it in game. Similarly anyone with a flashlight can cast Light and anyone with an improvised explosive device at the table may cast fireball.
Oh god yes... that annoys me SOOOOO much...
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I really like this kind of approach, because I think it's really boring to just let the dice decide everything that happens, rather than allowing the players some agency in a roleplaying situation. If your Gunslinger has talent, you should have a much better chance at shooting someone with your x to hit A.C. in real life. Our group gets bonus points when the real player takes charge of agency and actually hits one of the other volunteer players with his shot.I really like this kind of approach, because I think it's really boring to let our arguments stand for themselves, rather than putting up strawmen in a debate situation. If you have no arguing talent, you should have a much better chance of ridiculing someone with your stupid strawman that really doesn't prove anything, but makes your opponent's point seem ridiculous. You should get bonus points when people favorite the strawman you posted because that means it obviously is working as intended.
We don't use strawmen, we use flesh and blood volunteers when we conflate role play/ real life acuity of would-be Gunslingers. Why stop at nebulous skills like Diplomacy when you can have real fun with say an Acrobatics or Escape Artist check backed by actual attempts for role play bonus points. As an added treat, we often laugh ourselves silly while waiting for the ambulance to show up.
Just to step in and remind JoeJ and others- we're not saying the Rogue is worthless, just that he's worth less, quantitatively.Thank you. Yes. I'm not disagreeing with that; I'm saying that the the Rogue's functions can be vital, even if some other character class performs them. I'm arguing against the attitude that if I include challenges for the party's thief to deal with, I'm somehow cheating the other players of their fun.
Who made that argument?
literally though across multiple GMs and my own GMing my comment still stands, I've never gone through a dungeon left to the ancients. It's always been a place filled with active people doing things.
I dont know how common it is for home games, but in published ones it is not rare.
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Rogues are subpar because the way most games are played. Many games dont use skills that much, dont use traps, dont use locked doors that need to be open and dont run adventures where people need to sneek around.
And as for using Magic to do what a rogue does you can but just remember detect Magic is a ZERO level spell everyone gets and every competent bad guy should have some low level Mook who only job is to cast detect magic on a regular basis.
Not really. We just use bards, inquisitors, and rangers to do those things.
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Who made that argument?Just to step in and remind JoeJ and others- we're not saying the Rogue is worthless, just that he's worth less, quantitatively.Thank you. Yes. I'm not disagreeing with that; I'm saying that the the Rogue's functions can be vital, even if some other character class performs them. I'm arguing against the attitude that if I include challenges for the party's thief to deal with, I'm somehow cheating the other players of their fun.
Closest I saw was:
- people saying the example provided still was not Rogue exclusive.
- traps by the rules are boring and bleh as it is just two skill checks or take minor damage that you then heal. And having them just slows down the game for everyone not the trap guy as its tedious and they can't really help in any meaningful way besides maybe adding +2.
Don't Cavaliers have those same exact problems?I do still want to know why people think Fighters are as bad as Rogues. Considering that most Pathfinder games don't go very far beyond level 10, why are fighters a bad choice?Make a will save?....
Oh... and I am a flying Kitty xD
One of the things I really like about Samurai (the alternate Cavalier) is Resolve.
By spending even less you can buy +1 full plate and have near 95% immunity to low level characters with low strength scores.If there was an equivalent item that gave you 25/50/75% immunity to enemy spells, it still wouldn't be as crippling because now they just use spells that affect allies, create allies, or change reality around you without directly affecting you.For the same price as the 75% immunity to rogues, you can get SR 19 on your armor, giving you 75% immunity to 4th level casters.
Quite sure that's the point he was making. With 36k minimum (72% of your expected total lvl9 wealth), you have a high chance of shutting down casters half your level. Of course, they could improve their odds by being elves, having spell penetration, or assorted caster level bonuses. They could also use conjurations and buffs, while you're shielding yourself against friendly magic as well.
Fortification affects rogues of all levels equally, and there's no way to improve your odds. And there's nothing else your class features allow you to do in combat, besides plink away for something like 1d4+1 (could say 1d4+7 if it's an Agile dagger, though that isn't a rogue exclusive).
GM: "As you stick your toe out to reach the edge of the pit trap, the bugbear charges out of hiding and attacks the fighter with a greataxe as he clings to the wall. Meanwhile, the goblins behind you have had time to light their Molotov cocktails. Roll initiative.
How was that bugbear not seen, or do you mean if the bugbear rolls high enough on his stealth check he is not seen?
GM: "As you stick your toe out to reach the edge of the pit trap, the bugbear charges out of hiding and attacks the fighter with a greataxe as he clings to the wall. Meanwhile, the goblins behind you have had time to light their Molotov cocktails. Roll initiative.How was that bugbear not seen, or do you mean if the bugbear rolls high enough on his stealth check he is not seen?
Bugbears are basically bogeymen. 7ft and 400lb with +10 Stealth.
GM: "As you stick your toe out to reach the edge of the pit trap, the bugbear charges out of hiding and attacks the fighter with a greataxe as he clings to the wall. Meanwhile, the goblins behind you have had time to light their Molotov cocktails. Roll initiative.How was that bugbear not seen, or do you mean if the bugbear rolls high enough on his stealth check he is not seen?
They do have really high stealth checks, being of the superior goblinoid race and all.