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They do have really high stealth checks, being goblinoids and all.GM: "As you stick your toe out to reach the edge of the pit trap, the bugbear charges out of hiding and attacks the fighter with a greataxe as he clings to the wall. Meanwhile, the goblins behind you have had time to light their Molotov cocktails. Roll initiative.How was that bugbear not seen, or do you mean if the bugbear rolls high enough on his stealth check he is not seen?
The real question is how the bugbear has so many actions in a surprise round: One standard action or one move action and a charge is a full round... unless the bugbear somehow had the foresight to inflict the Staggered condition on himself in advance so he could charge as a standard action but only up to his base speed. Tricky, tricky bugbear.
If I were only playing with the core book, I'd still rather be a bard who happened to put max ranks into Disable Device than a Rogue. I would be able to deal with mechanical traps via DD and magical ones via Dispel Magic. Meanwhile, I'd be a better party face (via versatile performance), a better knowledge monkey, and have something to do in combat.So what class should I play if my character is a little guy who grew up on the streets, making a living by breaking into the houses of the wealthy? He's never had the chance to learn any magic, and he's certainly not a performer - just the opposite, in fact. He spent most of his childhood trying not to be noticed.
Urban ranger, slayer, ninja, urban barbarian
Bugbears are basically bogeymen. 7ft and 400lb with +10 Stealth.GM: "As you stick your toe out to reach the edge of the pit trap, the bugbear charges out of hiding and attacks the fighter with a greataxe as he clings to the wall. Meanwhile, the goblins behind you have had time to light their Molotov cocktails. Roll initiative.How was that bugbear not seen, or do you mean if the bugbear rolls high enough on his stealth check he is not seen?
The point was not really the race used, but he made it seem like it was automatic. If someone is going to be the party radar they will tend to go for a high perception
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My point was that bugbears are awesome.
It probably would not make too powerful, but it is a change in the wrong direction, IMHO.
I agree with your post. In your view would making a rogue full BAB be too powerful? Just curious.
It has been shown in another thread some time ago that even a gestalt rogue/fighter would not be too powerful when compared to a lot of other classes.
That means: Full BAB, Combat feats, talents, two good saves, 8 skillpoints, weapon training, armor training, sneak attack, trapfinding, evasion. Oh, I nearly forgot bravery.
They do have really high stealth checks, being of the superior goblinoid race and all.GM: "As you stick your toe out to reach the edge of the pit trap, the bugbear charges out of hiding and attacks the fighter with a greataxe as he clings to the wall. Meanwhile, the goblins behind you have had time to light their Molotov cocktails. Roll initiative.How was that bugbear not seen, or do you mean if the bugbear rolls high enough on his stealth check he is not seen?
u gota problem wit 'umans m8? I'll bash ur head rite in i sware on me mum
The real question is how the bugbear has so many actions in a surprise round: One standard action or one move action and a charge is a full round... unless the bugbear somehow had the foresight to inflict the Staggered condition on himself in advance so he could charge as a standard action but only up to his base speed. Tricky, tricky bugbear.They do have really high stealth checks, being goblinoids and all.GM: "As you stick your toe out to reach the edge of the pit trap, the bugbear charges out of hiding and attacks the fighter with a greataxe as he clings to the wall. Meanwhile, the goblins behind you have had time to light their Molotov cocktails. Roll initiative.How was that bugbear not seen, or do you mean if the bugbear rolls high enough on his stealth check he is not seen?
In the surprise round since you are only able to take a standard or a move, you can use a partial action charge I hear.
It probably would not make too powerful, but it is a change in the wrong direction, IMHO.
I agree with your post. In your view would making a rogue full BAB be too powerful? Just curious.
It has been shown in another thread some time ago that even a gestalt rogue/fighter would not be too powerful when compared to a lot of other classes.
That means: Full BAB, Combat feats, talents, two good saves, 8 skillpoints, weapon training, armor training, sneak attack, trapfinding, evasion. Oh, I nearly forgot bravery.
Compared to full casters or the other front linters?
Compared to full casters or the other front linters?It probably would not make too powerful, but it is a change in the wrong direction, IMHO.
I agree with your post. In your view would making a rogue full BAB be too powerful? Just curious.
It has been shown in another thread some time ago that even a gestalt rogue/fighter would not be too powerful when compared to a lot of other classes.
That means: Full BAB, Combat feats, talents, two good saves, 8 skillpoints, weapon training, armor training, sneak attack, trapfinding, evasion. Oh, I nearly forgot bravery.
They were compared to casters. But even so, every other class is more versatile when it comes to in- and out-off combat capability.
Fighter is strong IN combat but lacks out of, rogue the other way round.
u gota problem wit 'umans m8? I'll bash ur head rite in i sware on me mumThey do have really high stealth checks, being of the superior goblinoid race and all.GM: "As you stick your toe out to reach the edge of the pit trap, the bugbear charges out of hiding and attacks the fighter with a greataxe as he clings to the wall. Meanwhile, the goblins behind you have had time to light their Molotov cocktails. Roll initiative.How was that bugbear not seen, or do you mean if the bugbear rolls high enough on his stealth check he is not seen?
u f1lthy l0ngsh@nks c@n7 d0 sQu@7. y d0n'7 u go p10w @ fI3ld @nD r011 iN t3h mUd?
Scavion, I tell you this as a friend, and with all the love I can muster right now. Never write like that again.u f1lthy l0ngsh@nks c@n7 d0 sQu@7. y d0n'7 u go p10w @ fI3ld @nD r011 iN t3h mUd?u gota problem wit 'umans m8? I'll bash ur head rite in i sware on me mumThey do have really high stealth checks, being of the superior goblinoid race and all.GM: "As you stick your toe out to reach the edge of the pit trap, the bugbear charges out of hiding and attacks the fighter with a greataxe as he clings to the wall. Meanwhile, the goblins behind you have had time to light their Molotov cocktails. Roll initiative.How was that bugbear not seen, or do you mean if the bugbear rolls high enough on his stealth check he is not seen?
u c4nn07 r34d t3h l337z?
Scavion, I tell you this as a friend, and with all the love I can muster right now. Never write like that again.u f1lthy l0ngsh@nks c@n7 d0 sQu@7. y d0n'7 u go p10w @ fI3ld @nD r011 iN t3h mUd?u gota problem wit 'umans m8? I'll bash ur head rite in i sware on me mumThey do have really high stealth checks, being of the superior goblinoid race and all.GM: "As you stick your toe out to reach the edge of the pit trap, the bugbear charges out of hiding and attacks the fighter with a greataxe as he clings to the wall. Meanwhile, the goblins behind you have had time to light their Molotov cocktails. Roll initiative.How was that bugbear not seen, or do you mean if the bugbear rolls high enough on his stealth check he is not seen?
Don't be too hard on him. He's of low birth.
Don't be too hard on him. He's of low birth.Scavion, I tell you this as a friend, and with all the love I can muster right now. Never write like that again.u f1lthy l0ngsh@nks c@n7 d0 sQu@7. y d0n'7 u go p10w @ fI3ld @nD r011 iN t3h mUd?u gota problem wit 'umans m8? I'll bash ur head rite in i sware on me mumThey do have really high stealth checks, being of the superior goblinoid race and all.GM: "As you stick your toe out to reach the edge of the pit trap, the bugbear charges out of hiding and attacks the fighter with a greataxe as he clings to the wall. Meanwhile, the goblins behind you have had time to light their Molotov cocktails. Roll initiative.How was that bugbear not seen, or do you mean if the bugbear rolls high enough on his stealth check he is not seen?
0n17 t3h 1337 h4xx0rz c4n sp34k t3h 1337z... 4nd K47Z.... cuz k47z t3h 1337Z....
My god, it's an epidemic.
My god, it's an epidemic.
j0in uzzz... j0in t3h B0rG,,, B3c0m3 t3h 1337...
Yes, I can read that. Oh gods, stop it.u c4nn07 r34d t3h l337z?Scavion, I tell you this as a friend, and with all the love I can muster right now. Never write like that again.u f1lthy l0ngsh@nks c@n7 d0 sQu@7. y d0n'7 u go p10w @ fI3ld @nD r011 iN t3h mUd?u gota problem wit 'umans m8? I'll bash ur head rite in i sware on me mumThey do have really high stealth checks, being of the superior goblinoid race and all.GM: "As you stick your toe out to reach the edge of the pit trap, the bugbear charges out of hiding and attacks the fighter with a greataxe as he clings to the wall. Meanwhile, the goblins behind you have had time to light their Molotov cocktails. Roll initiative.How was that bugbear not seen, or do you mean if the bugbear rolls high enough on his stealth check he is not seen?
t3h b0Rg n3v3r Qui7... xD...411 ha13 t3h k1773h 0v3rl0rdz! XD
Ok Kitty done now xD
I enjoy hanging out with strange people far too much for it to say anything good about my mental health.Yes, I can read that. Oh gods, stop it.u c4nn07 r34d t3h l337z?Scavion, I tell you this as a friend, and with all the love I can muster right now. Never write like that again.u f1lthy l0ngsh@nks c@n7 d0 sQu@7. y d0n'7 u go p10w @ fI3ld @nD r011 iN t3h mUd?u gota problem wit 'umans m8? I'll bash ur head rite in i sware on me mumThey do have really high stealth checks, being of the superior goblinoid race and all.GM: "As you stick your toe out to reach the edge of the pit trap, the bugbear charges out of hiding and attacks the fighter with a greataxe as he clings to the wall. Meanwhile, the goblins behind you have had time to light their Molotov cocktails. Roll initiative.How was that bugbear not seen, or do you mean if the bugbear rolls high enough on his stealth check he is not seen?t3h b0Rg n3v3r Qui7... xD...411 ha13 t3h k1773h 0v3rl0rdz! XD
Ok Kitty done now xD
lulz, w3ird p30pl3 are t3h b3st though... xD
Don't be too hard on him. He's of low birth.Scavion, I tell you this as a friend, and with all the love I can muster right now. Never write like that again.u f1lthy l0ngsh@nks c@n7 d0 sQu@7. y d0n'7 u go p10w @ fI3ld @nD r011 iN t3h mUd?u gota problem wit 'umans m8? I'll bash ur head rite in i sware on me mumThey do have really high stealth checks, being of the superior goblinoid race and all.GM: "As you stick your toe out to reach the edge of the pit trap, the bugbear charges out of hiding and attacks the fighter with a greataxe as he clings to the wall. Meanwhile, the goblins behind you have had time to light their Molotov cocktails. Roll initiative.How was that bugbear not seen, or do you mean if the bugbear rolls high enough on his stealth check he is not seen?
Racist/speciest >=(
When the Wraithpocalypse comes, you'll all come crying when the Goblinoids with their superior scavenging and stealth skills conquer the world.
In the surprise round since you are only able to take a standard or a move, you can use a partial action charge I hear.The real question is how the bugbear has so many actions in a surprise round: One standard action or one move action and a charge is a full round... unless the bugbear somehow had the foresight to inflict the Staggered condition on himself in advance so he could charge as a standard action but only up to his base speed. Tricky, tricky bugbear.They do have really high stealth checks, being goblinoids and all.GM: "As you stick your toe out to reach the edge of the pit trap, the bugbear charges out of hiding and attacks the fighter with a greataxe as he clings to the wall. Meanwhile, the goblins behind you have had time to light their Molotov cocktails. Roll initiative.How was that bugbear not seen, or do you mean if the bugbear rolls high enough on his stealth check he is not seen?
This is true; you can charge, but only at your normal movement speed.
In the surprise round since you are only able to take a standard or a move, you can use a partial action charge I hear.The real question is how the bugbear has so many actions in a surprise round: One standard action or one move action and a charge is a full round... unless the bugbear somehow had the foresight to inflict the Staggered condition on himself in advance so he could charge as a standard action but only up to his base speed. Tricky, tricky bugbear.They do have really high stealth checks, being goblinoids and all.GM: "As you stick your toe out to reach the edge of the pit trap, the bugbear charges out of hiding and attacks the fighter with a greataxe as he clings to the wall. Meanwhile, the goblins behind you have had time to light their Molotov cocktails. Roll initiative.How was that bugbear not seen, or do you mean if the bugbear rolls high enough on his stealth check he is not seen?
I understood the partial charge rules to mean that you could only take one if you were unable to make a full round action, if you understand me. Because there is something wrong with you, not the type of round you are in. I'm not trying to dispute what you are saying as I totally see your point, but that didn't occur to me that it might also apply to a surprise round. Huh, the more you know.
I understood the partial charge rules to mean that you could only take one if you were unable to make a full round action, if you understand me. Because there is something wrong with you, not the type of round you are in. I'm not trying to dispute what you are saying as I totally see your point, but that didn't occur to me that it might also apply to a surprise round. Huh, the more you know.In the surprise round since you are only able to take a standard or a move, you can use a partial action charge I hear.The real question is how the bugbear has so many actions in a surprise round: One standard action or one move action and a charge is a full round... unless the bugbear somehow had the foresight to inflict the Staggered condition on himself in advance so he could charge as a standard action but only up to his base speed. Tricky, tricky bugbear.They do have really high stealth checks, being goblinoids and all.GM: "As you stick your toe out to reach the edge of the pit trap, the bugbear charges out of hiding and attacks the fighter with a greataxe as he clings to the wall. Meanwhile, the goblins behind you have had time to light their Molotov cocktails. Roll initiative.How was that bugbear not seen, or do you mean if the bugbear rolls high enough on his stealth check he is not seen?
Yeah, it was a little confusing for me when I first read it, but from what I understand after reading it and talking to my friends about it, the partial charge is a special action only available in a surprise round. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's the way it works.
From memory it says you can use it if you cannot take a full round action but can take a standard... which would mean you could use it while Staggered as well. Which is hilarious for a pouncing Barbarian.
when i have people RP diplomacy with me, how well they argue effects their attitude of them. if they just want to roll for it, then they're treated as hostile. it doesn't take much to jut have their stuff equal to what it would normally be.So the PLAYER who has a high charisma will be the face, not the CHARACTER? Regardless of what the character sheets say? That seems pretty crappy to me, seeing that pretty much means the guy who isn't very good at social situations in the first place (IRL) is shafted from playing social characters in game. That would be like saying that, if a guy can go and perform judo IRL, then his guy in game can do so as well, even though he is a mage with 10 str...
I'm currently dealing with a lvl 6 player with +41 diplomacy, but yeah, like i said it doesn't take much to get someone to behave normally.
From memory it says you can use it if you cannot take a full round action but can take a standard... which would mean you could use it while Staggered as well. Which is hilarious for a pouncing Barbarian.
Nevermind, you're right, it says you can use the partial charge whenever you are limited to a single standard action in a round, regardless of what is imposing the limit.
there are many good ways to build a rogue and stop them from being "subpar" but they're a certainly a harder class to optimize than others would be. even without min/maxing and optimizing they bring lots to the table, as long as you're not completely incompetent. i know of at least one time when a rogue was the only reason the party survived, because he was the only one that could out-damage the hydra's healing, or the Werewolves DR at level 1.
rogues like the cad or the rake are great, they can be really debilitating to enemies, you should also look at Performance combat and Shatter Defenses on a rogue and become deadly from any range.
even further, ever seen a lvl 12 rogue with greater feint and a keen human bane rapier is a scary scary thing to face, no matter what the circumstances. (a friend of mine's girlfriend plays a lunge/feint rogue that wrecks peoples faces, and regularly does 30+d6/round)
the only thing that kills me is that the rogue is certainly weaker than most classes, and yet the game has more ways of boning them than any other class. (uncanny dodge, flanking foil, amorphous, slimes, constructs, animated objects, elementals... et al)
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From memory it says you can use it if you cannot take a full round action but can take a standard... which would mean you could use it while Staggered as well. Which is hilarious for a pouncing Barbarian.
... pouncing zombies...
From memory it says you can use it if you cannot take a full round action but can take a standard... which would mean you could use it while Staggered as well. Which is hilarious for a pouncing Barbarian.... pouncing zombies...
So Zombie Tigers are more fearsome than living tigers?
i know of at least one time when a rogue was the only reason the party survived, because he was the only one that could out-damage the hydra's healing, or the Werewolves DR at level 1.
You tend to fight hydras and werewolfs at level 1? And even if it is hard to see a rogue out-damaging a barbarian with power-attack at level 1.
even further, ever seen a lvl 12 rogue with greater feint and a keen human bane rapier is a scary scary thing to face, no matter what the circumstances. (a friend of mine's girlfriend plays a lunge/feint rogue that wrecks peoples faces, and regularly does 30+d6/round)
Do you multiply the d6 from sneak attack and bane?
I am getting 1d6 rapier, 2d6 bane, 6d6 sneak attack. On a crit of those only the weapon dice is multiplied for 10d6 from main hand attacks. Assuming she is using TWF and all attacks hit and crit with the off hand being a 1d6 weapon, too I get impressive 28d6 but not 30+.But that would mean the rogue hits with 6 attack rolls despite having the TWF penalties.
But to do this you can't feint because that is a move action, even with improved feint. Or with improved two-weapon feint you loose your first main hand attack.
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So Zombie Tigers are more fearsome than living tigers?From memory it says you can use it if you cannot take a full round action but can take a standard... which would mean you could use it while Staggered as well. Which is hilarious for a pouncing Barbarian.... pouncing zombies...
Unless you happen to be within 10 feet of them when they start their turn... at that point you know they have no emotions or thoughts, but you can still almost see them crying on the inside.
I wonder, if rogue can make non lethal sneak attack, add INT to will saves and rogue talent that allow rogue add INT for attack, would that makes rogue better?
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So... you're saying rogues are kind of bad?
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Why do those who want to defend Rogues seem compelled to blame the bearers of bad news? I.e., Poster X notes that Rogues have been replaced in their erstwhile monopoly on trap finding while Poster Y points out that their skills are inferior, along with other class features, compared to say a Bard. Our intrepid defenders then shoot those who dare to present facts with the "you aren't playing them right" or "your DM isn't doing their job to make the Rogue shine."
Rogues are subpar because of the dozens of reasons posters before me pointed out upthread. Rogues are subpar because Paizo dropped the ball for whatever reason(s)- blame them and not those pointing these sad facts out.
Because the Paizo Defense Force(TM) can not let a such a slight stand, Pathfinder must be perfect!
I did a rewrite of the rogue here.
If anyone is interested.
Changes include complete rewrite of all rogue talents, along with making ranged SA easier and eliminating "You need Darkvision to SA in a dark alley!"
This is rather old so feel free to rip it up.
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