I want to start by quoting from a blog post a while back. Link
"Mythic Adventures is more than an ordinary sourcebook. It offers players and GMs a new way to play the Pathfinder RPG, from the humble beginnings of 1st level, to the lofty realms of power of 20th. You can use these rules to run a campaign where the players are mythic from the first session just as easily as you can use them to run a campaign where they are only mythic for a single game. The mythic rules can be used how you want, at any point in the campaign.
Put simply, the mythic rules allow characters (and monsters) to break some of the fundamental rules of the game."
1st-Tier Archmage Path Ability - Flexible Counterspell (Mythic Adventures pg. 16)
"Flexible Counterspell (Su): Your mythic power enhances
your ability to counter others' spells. As an immediate
action, you can exp end one use of mythic p ower to
attempt to counter a sp ell. This ability otherwis e works
like readying an action to counter a spell, except instead
of using the exact s p ell or dispel ma.!Jic, you can instead
expend a spell or spell slot of a level equal to or higher
than the target spell."
Arcanist Exploit (Advanced Class Guide Playtest - Part 2 pg. 5)
"Counterspell (Su): By expending one point from her
arcane reservoir, the arcanist can attempt to counterspell
a spell as it is being cast. She must identify the spell being
cast as normal. If the check is successful, the arcanist can
then use an immediate action and expend an available
arcanist spell slot of a level at least one higher than the
level of the spell being cast. To counterspell the spell, the
arcanist must make dispel check as if using dispel magic.
If the spell being countered is one that the arcanist has
prepared, she can instead expend an available arcanist
spell slot of that level and she receives a +5 bonus on the
dispel check."
Am I the only one that sees a problem with this?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
A lot of the Mythic stuff isn't particularly Mythic to begin with. If I were an optimist I'd say this is a good thing because it might mean some Mythic options could be allowed for other classes.
But since Arcanist seems to be Paizo's pet class, I doubt it. It gets to be Sorcerer+ and Mythic abilities on top, with a hug and a kiss from daddy every night after her bedtime story and hot cocoa.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not sure, but I would like to know this.
The mythic power is an immediate action to use.
The arcanist exploit is a standard action to use. It just changes countering from a prepared action (which I believe delays your entire round) to a standard+immediate. And the spell must still be identified.
So I don't think it's quite the same ability. But I'm not entirely sure.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Though similar, the differences are there. The mythic ability allows for a no questions asked counter, but the arcanist must first identify the spell (admittedly arbitrary at higher levels, but certainly something she can fail early on), must use a spell at least one level higher unless it matches a prepared spell, and has to make a dispel check as if countering with dispel magic (another potential fail point).
I'd certainly still argue then that the mythic ability is deserving of the title of "mythic", but the exploit is not.
I'm not seeing anywhere in the arcanist ability that you have to use a standard action. All I see is immediate action. As far as I know, identifying the spell is done right before you counter it and not taking an action, otherwise how would you ever counterspell an instantaneous spell?
The mythic version only states that you can counter as an immediate action and it can be a spell of equal or higher level. It says nothing else about changing how counterspelling originally works, so from what I see it only changes the action in which you counter and the spell. You would still have to identify, etc.
But the mythic version says "as an immediate action you can (activate)" which means out of turn. The arcanist exploit is a normal (Su) ability and takes a standard action to activate, and then it allows you to counter (once) as an immediate action (I suppose within a reasonable amount of time), and without losing your place in the initiative order.
Normally countering requires a readied action, which moves you down in the initiative order.
To my understanding.
Then why have the immediate action in the text if you're already readied to counter? That makes no sense.
You are not using the "ready action" action to use general rules counterspelling, you are instead using a standard action to activate a class ability that lets you keep your initiative and still counter at some point in the near future.
The actual action of countering the spell is then an immediate action, rather than the prepared standard action of the general method. (preventing you from taking a swift action on your next turn)
The advantage is keeping your initiative roll, and not wasting your turn if nobody casts a spell to counter.
I think it's a neat ability.
Yet you are still taking a standard to activate the ability so if no one casts, that turn is lost. Plus, if that's the way it works, how long does it last? It doesn't state that in the text. Can I activate the ability at the beginning of the day and walk around and counter the first spell I see. As it reads, it doesn't to me seem you need a standard action. If I am wrong, that text needs a complete rewrite.
It may need an small errata, but it's not free to use - you spend a limited resource, so I would not have a problem letting a player activate in the morning and the like.
That being said, I have some counterspell houserules, that are slightly more countering than this... I wanted to make magic and spells a little less of a instawin in my games.
So I may be a little biased towards counterspelling.
Counterspelling is for keeping a mage in check, and this is worth it. And getting a "no standard action" counterspell once per battle is not overpowered in any way.
Overall the arcanist seems OP, but not because of this exploit, and this exploit differs significantly from the mythic ability. Which is what I'm trying to argue.
EDIT to add: Unless otherwise stated, a (Su) ability requires a standard action to activate, once activated it allows for you to counter as an immediate action without readying an action.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Remember: There's a mythic ability that was less powerful than the original Crane Wing.
Actually, most of the mythic abilities were probably less powerful than that, but this mythic ability in particular was in the same vein as crane wing.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The other thing to note is that the mythic ability doesn't require a dispel check and allows the use of any spell of equal level or higher while the Arcane Exploit requires both a higher level spell AND a dispel check.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And the other thing to note is that the ACG playtest isn't necessarily the final version of the ability.
The other thing to note is that the mythic ability doesn't require a dispel check and allows the use of any spell of equal level or higher while the Arcane Exploit requires both a higher level spell AND a dispel check.
That's because the mythic one doesn't count as a dispel magic. You still have to follow the same rules for counterspelling (same spell/same school if you have the feat).
Also, mythic power is also a limited resource.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The other thing to note is that the mythic ability doesn't require a dispel check and allows the use of any spell of equal level or higher while the Arcane Exploit requires both a higher level spell AND a dispel check.That's because the mythic one doesn't count as a dispel magic. You still have to follow the same rules for counterspelling (same spell/same school if you have the feat).
Also, mythic power is also a limited resource.
1st-Tier Archmage Path Ability - Flexible Counterspell (Mythic Adventures pg. 16)"Flexible Counterspell (Su): Your mythic power enhances
your ability to counter others' spells. As an immediate
action, you can exp end one use of mythic p ower to
attempt to counter a sp ell. This ability otherwise works
like readying an action to counter a spell, except instead
of using the exact spell or dispel magic, you can instead
expend a spell or spell slot of a level equal to or higher
than the target spell."
Bolded part for emphasis, the mythic version allows any spell to be used as long as it is the same level or higher.