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I'd actually like to keep the weapon group bonuses with Weapon Training. I actually like the concept that the fighter can be good with multitudes of weapons, and it still gives the fighter the ability to use one really well. Maybe an option where a fighter can choose a weapon group for a smaller bonus, or choose a single weapon for a larger bonus?
I haven't read the whole thread, but to my way of thinking there's one big thing that the fighter needs to be "unchained" from that's more important than anything else:
Realism.
"You can't shoot a bow that many times in 6 seconds!"
Actually, you can. We just forgot how to.
Aside from that, I agree with most everything you say.
Most everything, because some of those rules elements (like the incorporeal bit) make for balancing factors for monsters. You have NO idea how fast a shadow dies if it doesn't have its incorporeal traits. You might even need to redesign those monsters assuming that your players can bypass this defense at a whim.
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Most everything, because some of those rules elements (like the incorporeal bit) make for balancing factors for monsters. You have NO idea how fast a shadow dies if it doesn't have its incorporeal traits. You might even need to redesign those monsters assuming that your players can bypass this defense at a whim.
All it takes is a 50gp oil of magic weapon to be able to at least hurt it. Or a 25gp scroll (or a 0gp spell slot) if you have a caster to hold your hand.
Would it be so terrible to have one or two classes who, instead of relying on someone else's magic, could just do it themselves?
Most everything, because some of those rules elements (like the incorporeal bit) make for balancing factors for monsters. You have NO idea how fast a shadow dies if it doesn't have its incorporeal traits. You might even need to redesign those monsters assuming that your players can bypass this defense at a whim.All it takes is a 50gp oil of magic weapon to be able to at least hurt it. Or a 25gp scroll (or a 0gp spell slot) if you have a caster to hold your hand.
Would it be so terrible to have one or two classes who, instead of relying on someone else's magic, could just do it themselves?
Yes and when you've hit 3rd level in a dungeon and haven't had the chance to acquire such oil, that Shadow can be a total pain in the ass to deal with.
For example, the first module I ever ran in Pathfinder was Crypt of the Everflame, which has an encounter with a Shadow really early on and the only magical weapon is a dagger the PCs have to fish out of a burning bonfire while the Shadow attacks them. If they don't spot that dagger, or don't notice it's magical, or don't opt to pick it up, that shadow will murder them.
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I wasn't saying he should gain an ability like that at 3rd level or sooner. It'd just be nice if a 20th-level fighter and a 1st-level fighter didn't have the same degree of magic dependency as each other when fighting incorporeal creatures.
A 20th-level fighter without magic is currently completely incapable of defeating a CR3 shadow. The threat of that CR3 monster hasn't changed since 1st level unless someone gave him some magic.
That is what shouldn't be happening. A high-level character should never have an absolute 100% dependency on a specific item/spell in order to have any chance of defeating a monster whose CR he's already passed.
I wasn't saying he should gain an ability like that at 3rd level or sooner. It'd just be nice if a 20th-level fighter and a 1st-level fighter didn't have the same degree of magic dependency as each other when fighting incorporeal creatures.
A 20th-level fighter without magic is currently completely incapable of defeating a CR3 shadow. The threat of that CR3 monster hasn't changed since 1st level unless someone gave him some magic.
That is what shouldn't be happening. A high-level character should never have an absolute 100% dependency on a specific item/spell in order to have any chance of defeating a monster whose CR he's already passed.
I see. That is a very good point and something I absolutely agree with.
#nerfshadows, #livingcanthavenicethings J/K :P
I don't know. One staple I like from fantasy media is the use of magic items by mundane people to take down creatures. It is something I'd like to keep in Pathfinder. It rewards preparation. Kinda like how Batman can still roll with the Justice League for high powered threats and still use gadgets and cunning to fight them.
Course, fighters need the boost in cunning and manuevers. Not disagreeing with that. I'm just not really keen on adding magic to the fighter.
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I don't know. One staple I like from fantasy media is the use of magic items by mundane people to take down creatures. It is something I'd like to keep in Pathfinder. It rewards preparation. Kinda like how Batman can still roll with the Justice League for high powered threats and still use gadgets and cunning to fight them.
Course, fighters need the boost in cunning and manuevers. Not disagreeing with that. I'm just not really keen on adding magic to the fighter.
Usually, as the trope goes, the relationship between the wielder of the legendary magic item and the monster he uses it to defeat is not comparable the relationship between a 20th-level fighter and a CR3 monster.
Also, though I admit I'm not a comic afficionado, it's my understanding that Batman's "gadget budget" is waaaaaay more than that of the supers he's competing with. That's WHY it's a valid edge. But in Pathfinder, everyone has the same budget; it's the equivalent of if everyone in the Justice League got to have all of Batman's toys in addition to their innate superpowers. If you want that comparison to be valid, start having fighters and wizards get vastly different WBL in your games.
Finally, I wasn't aware that anyone was talking about "adding magic to the fighter". I know I certainly wasn't.
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Blasphemous as it may be, I personally only think Batman wins because of GM Fiat. He wins because the writers say he needs to win and the only reason he can roll with the Justice League is because they will ignore previous material in favor of letting Batman contribute.
I mean, if an enemy can get hit by a wrecking ball, or a train, or thrown through a building, hit by missiles and shot by bullets without getting injured, Batman coming up and punching him isn't going to hurt him.
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Batman wins not mostly through money or through GM fiat (though both play a part), but by cleverness...specifically, the kind that lets the Rogue be the most valuable member of the party because his player is just that good. That's not really quantifiable as a class feature or anything like that, though, so other means must be used to make character classes with and without magic equivalent to each other.
On the other hand (and a bit off-topic), Investigator actually models all the rest of what Batman does pretty damn well, with Extracts subbing in as a 'wealth enhancer' to give him a lot of free 'one shot items' every day, and the rest of the Class Features duplicating his other tricks. Of course, Investigator's a pseudo-spellcaster.
I don't know. One staple I like from fantasy media is the use of magic items by mundane people to take down creatures. It is something I'd like to keep in Pathfinder. It rewards preparation. Kinda like how Batman can still roll with the Justice League for high powered threats and still use gadgets and cunning to fight them.
Course, fighters need the boost in cunning and manuevers. Not disagreeing with that. I'm just not really keen on adding magic to the fighter.
Usually, as the trope goes, the relationship between the wielder of the legendary magic item and the monster he uses it to defeat is not comparable the relationship between a 20th-level fighter and a CR3 monster.
Also, though I admit I'm not a comic afficionado, it's my understanding that Batman's "gadget budget" is waaaaaay more than that of the supers he's competing with. That's WHY it's a valid edge. But in Pathfinder, everyone has the same budget; it's the equivalent of if everyone in the Justice League got to have all of Batman's toys in addition to their innate superpowers. If you want that comparison to be valid, start having fighters and wizards get vastly different WBL in your games.
Finally, I wasn't aware that anyone was talking about "adding magic to the fighter". I know I certainly wasn't.
To be fair, how else are you going to take down a shadow without magic? A fighter being able to cut ghosts is in itself a magical ability, whether it's a spell, SLA, or supernatural ability. :)
One thing I didn't get a chance to type (was rushing to the bank) was that since the fighter is dependent on magic items, it would be good to have talents/feats/class abilities that lessen the burden. Two I had in mind were:
Quartermaster: Through haggling and thrifty spending, the fighter is good at getting deals for items. The fighter only has to spend XX% of the buying price when purchasing mundane or magic items.
Master Blacksmith: Years of training in the forge allow you to craft items faster, be they mundane or magic. Crafting mundane items (including weapons out of special materials) takes half of the time. Magic items only cost XX% to make, instead of 50%
Or something like that. Definitely not claiming any of this is balanced, but I feel it's a good start into getting the fighter to ease the magic dependence while still keeping the fighter "mundane".
Wish there was a better word for mundane, since with better skills and combat maneuvers, he's anything but mundane. :)
I don't know. One staple I like from fantasy media is the use of magic items by mundane people to take down creatures. It is something I'd like to keep in Pathfinder. It rewards preparation. Kinda like how Batman can still roll with the Justice League for high powered threats and still use gadgets and cunning to fight them.
Course, fighters need the boost in cunning and manuevers. Not disagreeing with that. I'm just not really keen on adding magic to the fighter.
Usually, as the trope goes, the relationship between the wielder of the legendary magic item and the monster he uses it to defeat is not comparable the relationship between a 20th-level fighter and a CR3 monster.
Also, though I admit I'm not a comic afficionado, it's my understanding that Batman's "gadget budget" is waaaaaay more than that of the supers he's competing with. That's WHY it's a valid edge. But in Pathfinder, everyone has the same budget; it's the equivalent of if everyone in the Justice League got to have all of Batman's toys in addition to their innate superpowers. If you want that comparison to be valid, start having fighters and wizards get vastly different WBL in your games.
Finally, I wasn't aware that anyone was talking about "adding magic to the fighter". I know I certainly wasn't.
To be fair, how else are you going to take down a shadow without magic? A fighter being able to cut ghosts is in itself a magical ability, whether it's a spell, SLA, or supernatural ability. :)
One thing I didn't get a chance to type (was rushing to the bank) was that since the fighter is dependent on magic items, it would be good to have talents/feats/class abilities that lessen the burden. Two I had in mind were:
Quartermaster: Through haggling and thrifty spending, the fighter is good at getting deals for items. The fighter only has to spend XX% of the buying price when purchasing mundane or magic items.
Master Blacksmith: Years of training in...
Well, apparently the Brawler's ability to punch as though her fists were magic will be an 'Extraordinary' (i.e. nonmagical) ability in the ACG so...
Blasphemous as it may be, I personally only think Batman wins because of GM Fiat. He wins because the writers say he needs to win and the only reason he can roll with the Justice League is because they will ignore previous material in favor of letting Batman contribute.
I mean, if an enemy can get hit by a wrecking ball, or a train, or thrown through a building, hit by missiles and shot by bullets without getting injured, Batman coming up and punching him isn't going to hurt him.
To be fair, that's pretty much any literary character in existence :)
To be fair, that's pretty much any literary character in existence :)Blasphemous as it may be, I personally only think Batman wins because of GM Fiat. He wins because the writers say he needs to win and the only reason he can roll with the Justice League is because they will ignore previous material in favor of letting Batman contribute.
I mean, if an enemy can get hit by a wrecking ball, or a train, or thrown through a building, hit by missiles and shot by bullets without getting injured, Batman coming up and punching him isn't going to hurt him.
To some extent yes, but a lot of the comic book hereos have some super power that lets them win. Batman kind of falls solely into the realm of GM Fiat when it comes to the truly super heroes/villains.
I mean, Superman is damned near indestructable and super strong, Wonder Woman is really strong and really tough, Green Lantern has a bad ass ring, Jonn Jones is an alien that is tough, strong, and can turn ethereal etc.
The only reason Batman really gets to run with these guys, is because the writers says he can. If you were to inject any sort of realism into the comics, Batman would never even be in the same room as them except to maybe give them advice as a detective.
Batman wins not mostly through money or through GM fiat (though both play a part), but by cleverness...specifically, the kind that lets the Rogue be the most valuable member of the party because his player is just that good. That's not really quantifiable as a class feature or anything like that, though, so other means must be used to make character classes with and without magic equivalent to each other.
On the other hand (and a bit off-topic), Investigator actually models all the rest of what Batman does pretty damn well, with Extracts subbing in as a 'wealth enhancer' to give him a lot of free 'one shot items' every day, and the rest of the Class Features duplicating his other tricks. Of course, Investigator's a pseudo-spellcaster.
If batman was in a fantasy setting I don't think it would be too farfetched for him to dabble in alchemy or be a pseudo-specllcaster as you put it. The only reason I think he has not bothered using magic(Despite its existence in the DCU) is because the writers want to keep that whole idea of a man simply depending on his skills and talents and not superpowers to be a hero. If he wasn't chained by that theme I can see batman learning some magic and using it in his war against crime, it wouldn't surprise if he became more like Dr. Doom(In terms of power set not personality) combining both technology and magic, along with his physical ability.
...I don't know. One staple I like from fantasy media is the use of magic items by mundane people to take down creatures. It is something I'd like to keep in Pathfinder. It rewards preparation. Kinda like how Batman can still roll with the Justice League for high powered threats and still use gadgets and cunning to fight them.
Course, fighters need the boost in cunning and manuevers. Not disagreeing with that. I'm just not really keen on adding magic to the fighter.
Usually, as the trope goes, the relationship between the wielder of the legendary magic item and the monster he uses it to defeat is not comparable the relationship between a 20th-level fighter and a CR3 monster.
Also, though I admit I'm not a comic afficionado, it's my understanding that Batman's "gadget budget" is waaaaaay more than that of the supers he's competing with. That's WHY it's a valid edge. But in Pathfinder, everyone has the same budget; it's the equivalent of if everyone in the Justice League got to have all of Batman's toys in addition to their innate superpowers. If you want that comparison to be valid, start having fighters and wizards get vastly different WBL in your games.
Finally, I wasn't aware that anyone was talking about "adding magic to the fighter". I know I certainly wasn't.
To be fair, how else are you going to take down a shadow without magic? A fighter being able to cut ghosts is in itself a magical ability, whether it's a spell, SLA, or supernatural ability. :)
One thing I didn't get a chance to type (was rushing to the bank) was that since the fighter is dependent on magic items, it would be good to have talents/feats/class abilities that lessen the burden. Two I had in mind were:
Quartermaster: Through haggling and thrifty spending, the fighter is good at getting deals for items. The fighter only has to spend XX% of the buying price when purchasing mundane or magic items.
Master
And to be honest, I don't like that. But it's too late to change that now.
A fighter being able to cut ghosts is in itself a magical abilityWhy?
Because honestly, every explaination I can think of that allows him to cut through ghost is magical in nature. Whether it's praying spirits to aid him or even just being really good at cutting ghosts.
I like the style of Charles Atlas powers for fighters. Crazy maneuvers, like leaping bounds and catching bullets and cutting bullets mid shot. But I honestly can't think of an extraordinary means for cutting ghosts besides a magic item or weird science gizmo.
I honestly would not mind if the fighter couldn't cut a ghost or shadow, to balance things the GM should introduce monsters that are immune to magic.
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If batman was in a fantasy setting I don't think it would be too farfetched for him to dabble in alchemy or be a pseudo-specllcaster as you put it. The only reason I think he has not bothered using magic(Despite its existence in the DCU) is because the writers want to keep that whole idea of a man simply depending on his skills and talents and not superpowers to be a hero. If he wasn't chained by that theme I can see batman learning some magic and using it in his war against crime, it wouldn't surprise if he became more like Dr. Doom(In terms of power set not personality) combining both technology and magic, along with his physical ability.
Oh, all agreed entirely. I was just noting the distinction since this thread is about Fighters, and the discussion primarily about non-spellcasters.
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I don't know, harming ghosts shouldn't be a 'magic only' idea. Especially with the idea that 'pure iron' was used to ward off spirits in old times. Or things like blocking the entrance with a line of salt stops them from crossing the barrier etc.
It would be a nice addition to Cold Iron if it also allowed characters to damage incorporeal creatures without required magic to do so.
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every explaination I can think of that allows him to cut through ghost is magical in nature. Whether it's praying spirits to aid him or even just being really good at cutting ghosts.
What makes "just being really good at cutting ghosts" inherently magical in nature? That description doesn't sound magical at all to me. Sounds like a description of skill. Where's the requirement for magic coming from?
I honestly would not mind if the fighter couldn't cut a ghost or shadow, to balance things the GM should introduce monsters that are immune to magic.
Because it's a false equivalence. A fighter can, with magical items, defeat a shadow. Even with doing half damage, a fighter can still put the hurting on an incorporeal creature. So even though it's an immunity, it's one that can be over come without a wizard, since you can buy the magic item yourself or make it yourself with Master Craftsman.
How would you have a mage overcome something that is immune to magic?
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I honestly would not mind if the fighter couldn't cut a ghost or shadow, to balance things the GM should introduce monsters that are immune to magic.Because it's a false equivalence. A fighter can, with magical items, defeat a shadow. Even with doing half damage, a fighter can still put the hurting on an incorporeal creature. So even though it's an immunity, it's one that can be over come without a wizard, since you can buy the magic item yourself or make it yourself with Master Craftsman.
How would you have a mage overcome something that is immune to magic?
Maybe in the gazillion ways they already do? Non-SR spells, summons, just teleport to another continent and not deal with it...
EDIT: And I'd point out that the spellcaster doesn't need to spend 2,000+ gp (or 50gp and the first round of combat to get ready) to do any of this like a fighter does to deal with incorporeals.
I don't know, harming ghosts shouldn't be a 'magic only' idea. Especially with the idea that 'pure iron' was used to ward off spirits in old times. Or things like blocking the entrance with a line of salt stops them from crossing the barrier etc.
It would be a nice addition to Cold Iron if it also allowed characters to damage incorporeal creatures without required magic to do so.
Thing is, with cold iron, that was inherently a magical material. Many of those materials had spiritual properties of purification inherent to them. And you see that in Pathfinder with holy water.
Though I agree, that seeing more of that with salt and cold iron and other items would be really cool.
every explaination I can think of that allows him to cut through ghost is magical in nature. Whether it's praying spirits to aid him or even just being really good at cutting ghosts.What makes "just being really good at cutting ghosts" inherently magical in nature? That description doesn't sound magical at all to me. Sounds like a description of skill. Where's the requirement for magic coming from?
Because ghosts and spirits and incorporeality are inherently magic creatures. Creatures of the Ethereal realm that can only be damaged greatly by magic (and even then, by half) and channeling positive energy. It feels like something that to me, shouldn't be overcome with skill alone. I mean, maybe if it was an invoking of spirits to aid him or something, but that's still magic in nature. Sorry I don't agree.
I honestly would not mind if the fighter couldn't cut a ghost or shadow, to balance things the GM should introduce monsters that are immune to magic.Because it's a false equivalence. A fighter can, with magical items, defeat a shadow. Even with doing half damage, a fighter can still put the hurting on an incorporeal creature. So even though it's an immunity, it's one that can be over come without a wizard, since you can buy the magic item yourself or make it yourself with Master Craftsman.
How would you have a mage overcome something that is immune to magic?
Maybe in the gazillion ways they already do? Non-SR spells, summons, just teleport to another continent and not deal with it...
EDIT: And I'd point out that the spellcaster doesn't need to spend 2,000+ gp (or 50gp and the first round of combat to get ready) to do any of this like a fighter does to deal with incorporeals.
I stand corrected, those are good points. Though for SR, I honestly just assumed that the creature was just immune.
As for that 2,000, a fighter isn't buying a magic weapon just to deal with incorporeals. He's buying a magic weapon to fight things better. A fighter will always be buying that +1 magic weapon. The fact that it helps with incorporeal creatures is a bonus to it. And there are other methods to dealing with ghosts and undead beyond magic weapons. Such as holy water.
But that's also why I think the fighter could use ways to make buying and crafting items cheaper. To lessen the burden of magic item dependence
Also, having done it, the magical oil is a minor inconvenience, if that.
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A 20th-level fighter and a 20th-level wizard/sorcerer/whatever each wake up naked on the beaches of separate islands. The fighter encounters a CR 3 incorporeal creature, while the wizard encounters a CR 3 creature that's immune to magic.
The caster flies into the air and decides, at his leisure, whether he'd rather teleport home, summon a creature to fight for him while he takes a nap, cast transform and win in hand-to-hand combat, blast it with conjured acid/stones/whatever, or even just pick up a club and win the fight based purely on his 20th-level BAB/HP/etc.
The fighter hopes he can outrun the CR 3 creature long enough to find some spare magic lying around so he won't die.
This is a problem.
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Because ghosts and spirits and incorporeality are inherently magic creatures.
So magic can only be engaged by more magic? This is good for a game in which a PC can choose to be nonmagical but will inevitably face magical foes?
Creatures of the Ethereal realm that can only be damaged greatly by magic (and even then, by half) and channeling positive energy.
Why do we have to keep the idea that they can only be damaged by magic? Why is that part of the definition of being incorporeal?
It feels like something that to me, shouldn't be overcome with skill alone.
Then why do we still have classes that rely on skill alone if skill alone isn't enough to overcome what they face?
I stand corrected, those are good points. Though for SR, I honestly just assumed that the creature was just immune.
A creature immune to magic is still affected by non-SR spells. "Immune to magic", in Pathfinder, means "immune to spells that allow SR".
As for that 2,000, a fighter isn't buying a magic weapon just to deal with incorporeals. He's buying a magic weapon to fight things better. A fighter will always be buying that +1 magic weapon. The fact that it helps with incorporeal creatures is a bonus to it. And there are other methods to dealing with ghosts and undead beyond magic weapons. Such as holy water.
He's still depending on magic to do more than 2d4 points of damage even at 20th level. Also, see my last post.
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What is a Fighter's Weapon Training (or similar ability in an "Unchained" version) worked similarly to the Monk; at first Weapon Training rank, all weapons in that group count as magic, at second rank bypass DR/cold iron or silver, at third rank DR/adamantine, at fourth rank DR/alignment.
As interesting as this discussion is, wouldn't it be better suited to that artifact of the forum? The Main Problem with Fighters
This thread should contain as little references to other classes as possible. If a comparison is necessary then maybe a link to another post should be sufficient.
EX:
The Fighter unchained should have some sort of benefit that makes it worth playing in a party, as it is currently the fighter is worse at everything an equally optimized Barbarian can do. As such perhaps the the unchained Fighter should probably focus on a high amount of versatility since actually being better than an optimized Barbarian at all the things it does would probably make a very "broken" class.
Well, to be fair, a Ranger, Cavalier, Rogue, Fighter, and Barbarian all have the same problem. If they don't have a magic weapon, odds are they can't damage a Shadow without one. It's just the word 'Fighter' is often used to mean 'martial' when it comes to talking about issues with martials in Pathfinder.
Because ghosts and spirits and incorporeality are inherently magic creatures.So magic can only be engaged by more magic? This is good for a game in which a PC can choose to be nonmagical but will inevitably face magical foes?
Creatures of the Ethereal realm that can only be damaged greatly by magic (and even then, by half) and channeling positive energy.Why do we have to keep the idea that they can only be damaged by magic? Why is that part of the definition of being incorporeal?
It feels like something that to me, shouldn't be overcome with skill alone.Then why do we still have classes that rely on skill alone if skill alone isn't enough to overcome what they face?
I stand corrected, those are good points. Though for SR, I honestly just assumed that the creature was just immune.A creature immune to magic is still affected by non-SR spells. "Immune to magic", in Pathfinder, means "immune to spells that allow SR".
As for that 2,000, a fighter isn't buying a magic weapon just to deal with incorporeals. He's buying a magic weapon to fight things better. A fighter will always be buying that +1 magic weapon. The fact that it helps with incorporeal creatures is a bonus to it. And there are other methods to dealing with ghosts and undead beyond magic weapons. Such as holy water.He's still depending on magic to do more than 2d4 points of damage even at 20th level. Also, see my last post.
1. I'll admit it's a preference thing, but yes, I feel that magic should defeat magic most of the time. It's something you see in fantasy media and it's really not that far-fetched. A player can still fight magic with magic weapons or items or blessing to defeat magical creatures.
2. That's usually the standard in fantasy literature. Ghosts, shades, and such can't be hit without some form of spiritual item.
3. Because those magical creatures can still be overcome with preparation. Bringing silver or cold iron or holy water. In fantasy, it's not often you see a supernatural hunter come in without the right materials and research. Salt, holy water, a crucifix... it's all staples of fantasy literature.
4. Yes, like I said, I made a mistake about spell immunity. So sue me.
5. Again, I don't have an issue with relying on magic to fight magic. I saw your last post and it feels less like an actual example of gameplay and more just an example of a GM wanted to screw over a player. And before you say it, yes, I understand that removing the fighter's magic items is much easier to do than sticking a wizard in an anti-magic zone.
That said, I feel we can compromise about this issue. I'll be honest, an ability to overcome incorporeal would certain help the fighter, even if it doesn't quite match my personal preference. Maybe the fluff is calling for a blessing from the gods, or, like the monk, channelling chakra/ki/prana/some other mystical, but inner spirit energy. I could dig that, and it'd give the fighter the boost for using a "magic weapon" without "magic". That seems like a good fit, no?
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What if...
Basing off my previous post, the Fighter's Weapon Training grants the ability to overcome DR with each rank.
To compensate for other classes having the same issue, Weapon Focus could be retooled and made better by granting the same ability; at 4th level, that specific weapon counts as magic, at 7th is bypasses silver and cold iron, at 10th it bypasses adamantine, at 13th it bypasses alignment.
Most martial classes will still want to apply the approrpiate bonuses on their weapons to get those sooner, as waiting until 13th level to bypass alignment DR can really hurt. But, it at least gives an option.
And the Fighter's innate ability is essentially that but applying to entire weapon groups.
Well, to be fair, a Ranger, Cavalier, Rogue, Fighter, and Barbarian all have the same problem. If they don't have a magic weapon, odds are they can't damage a Shadow without one. It's just the word 'Fighter' is often used to mean 'martial' when it comes to talking about issues with martials in Pathfinder.
Barbarians can pick up ghost rager, at level 6 that's fairly high but it's a solution that doesn't require an item.
What if...
Basing off my previous post, the Fighter's Weapon Training grants the ability to overcome DR with each rank.
To compensate for other classes having the same issue, Weapon Focus could be retooled and made better by granting the same ability; at 4th level, that specific weapon counts as magic, at 7th is bypasses silver and cold iron, at 10th it bypasses adamantine, at 13th it bypasses alignment.
Most martial classes will still want to apply the approrpiate bonuses on their weapons to get those sooner, as waiting until 13th level to bypass alignment DR can really hurt. But, it at least gives an option.
And the Fighter's innate ability is essentially that but applying to entire weapon groups.
hhhmm..I wouldn't mind perhaps a more limited-watered down ability similar to this, but I actually LIKE the fact that certain creatures have specific weakness that needs to be exploited to defeat them properly. Letting fighters just auto bypass feels like it would remove a lot of storytelling possibility.
Maybe, at Level X, a fighter can bypass 2 points of DPR automatically, 4 points at level X+, 6 points at level X++ etc
That way things like silver or adamantine are still relevant in a monster stat block
Also, it would fit the fluff of the fighter better...as a Fighter grows more powerful, he is able to aim his attacks in debilitating manners that hurt the creature (slicing off limbs, just doing massive damage, etc) which works around the immunity a creature might have to most attacks.
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Not that this will make a difference in PFS, where I think this clearly needs to make a difference but here is what I would do with the fighter.
1. Replace Bravery with the Samurai's Resolve Feature.
2. Add a benefit to Armor Training 3, that allows a Fighter to apply the Enhancement Bonus of his armor to his Touch AC and start Armor Training at Level 1.
3. When you gain weapon training, you gain Weapon Proficiency for every weapon in your group, you may apply the following feats (if you've taken them) to any weapon you are trained in: Weapon Focus, Weapon Focus Greater, Weapon Specialization, Weapon Specialization Greater, and Improved Critical.
4. 4 Skill Ranks per level: Knowledge Local and Perception become Class Skills (fighters need to know who's hiring swords - Knowledge Local and a surprised fighter is a dead fighter - Perception).
5. Create Shield Training as a class ability (even if no one ever uses a shield) - Make shield training do the following: Shield Training 1: Shield Focus Feat, 2: Arrow Shield ignoring Prereqs, 3: Ray Shield ignoring prereqs, 4. Shield Master Ignoring Prereqs
6. Shield Mastery: At Level X your shield bonus is added to your Touch AC.
Ideally the progression would go like this.
Level 1: Bonus Combat Feat, Armor Training 1
Level 2: Bonus Combat Feat, Resolve
Level 3: Shield Training 1 - Shield Focus
Level 4: Bonus Feat, Weapon Training
Level 5: Armor Training 2,
Level 6: Bonus Combat Feat, Resolve Second use (sense fighters don't have a challenge to replenish)
Level 7: Shield Training 2 - Arrow Shield
Level 8: Bonus Feat, Weapon Training 2
Level 9: Armor Training 3 - Apply Armor Enhancement Bonus to Touch AC
Level 10: Bonus Feat, Resolve Third Use
Level 11: Shield Training 3 - Ray Shield
Level 12: Bonus Feat, Weapon Training 3
Level 13: Armor Training 4 - Gain DR 5/-
Level 14: Bonus Feat, Resolve Use 4
Level 15: Shield Training 4 - Shield Master
Level 16: Bonus Feat, Weapon Training 4
Level 17: Armor Mastery - Your Total Armor Bonus is added to your Touch AC and DR 10/-
Level 18: Bonus Feat, True Resolve
Level 19: Shield Mastery - You apply you Total Shield Bonus to your Touch AC and you Gain Fortitude 50%
Level 20: Weapon Mastery - Same as normal
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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@Odraude - I think we're getting lost in examples here. The core issue is this:
As the game progresses, you face bigger and badder foes. As a result, this is inescapable: You need sufficient X to overcome the increasing challenges.
In theory, X could be anything: levels, magic, gear, whatever. But the reason you're able to defeat now what you couldn't defeat before is because you've now acquired enough X.
Now if this is going to be a game where you can choose how you approach (such as by choosing a class), then for the game to be as fun as it can be, the following also needs to be true: Every class needs access to X.
X could still be anything, just as long as it's the same X. If continuing to advance requires sufficient poodles, then every class needs access to poodles. Or from the other direction, if the only thing you want every class to have access to is rhubarbs, then rhubarbs had better be capable of letting you advance.
Whatever you pick for one, you need to pick the same for the other.
Currently, Pathfinder fails in this regard: the only thing that everyone has access to is levels, but the thing you have to have in order to advance is magic.
The fighter MUST acquire magic in some form in order to keep playing, no matter what else he has. The wizard (or other PC with magic) can keep playing with relatively little regard for what other (nonmagical) things he lacks.
This is a flaw in the system: there's a mismatch between what you need and what you can access.
For Pathfinder to improve, it needs to align the two: either change what lets you advance from "magic" to "levels" (letting everyone gain tools to keep playing the game, as a function of level, independent of other factors); or else take the thing that's required to advance (magic) and make it more evenly accessible.
Either path is fine, as long as where we end up is that what's required to keep playing the game is readily and evenly accessible to everyone.
Not that this will make a difference in PFS, where I think this clearly needs to make a difference but here is what I would do with the fighter.
1. Replace Bravery with the Samurai's Resolve Feature.
2. Add a benefit to Armor Training 3, that allows a Fighter to apply the Enhancement Bonus of his armor to his Touch AC and start Armor Training at Level 1.
3. When you gain weapon training, you gain Weapon Proficiency for every weapon in your group, you may apply the following feats (if you've taken them) to any weapon you are trained in: Weapon Focus, Weapon Focus Greater, Weapon Specialization, Weapon Specialization Greater, and Improved Critical.
4. 4 Skill Ranks per level: Knowledge Local and Perception become Class Skills (fighters need to know who's hiring swords - Knowledge Local and a surprised fighter is a dead fighter - Perception).
5. Create Shield Training as a class ability (even if no one ever uses a shield) - Make shield training do the following: Shield Training 1: Shield Focus Feat, 2: Arrow Shield ignoring Prereqs, 3: Ray Shield ignoring prereqs, 4. Shield Master Ignoring Prereqs
6. Shield Mastery: At Level X your shield bonus is added to your Touch AC.
Ideally the progression would go like this.
Level 1: Bonus Combat Feat, Armor Training 1
Level 2: Bonus Combat Feat, Resolve
Level 3: Shield Training 1 - Shield Focus
Level 4: Bonus Feat, Weapon Training
Level 5: Armor Training 2,
Level 6: Bonus Combat Feat, Resolve Second use (sense fighters don't have a challenge to replenish)
Level 7: Shield Training 2 - Arrow Shield
Level 8: Bonus Feat, Weapon Training 2
Level 9: Armor Training 3 - Apply Armor Enhancement Bonus to Touch AC
Level 10: Bonus Feat, Resolve Third Use
Level 11: Shield Training 3 - Ray Shield
Level 12: Bonus Feat, Weapon Training 3
Level 13: Armor Training 4 - Gain DR 5/-
Level 14: Bonus Feat, Resolve Use 4
Level 15: Shield Training 4 - Shield Master
Level 16: Bonus Feat, Weapon Training 4
Level 17: Armor Mastery - Your Total Armor...
I like most of the idea you've got here, especially with removing the prerequisites for ray shield. Its a fighter only feat and yet barely any fighter takes it because of its ridiculous feat tax.
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Once again I find myself going through a thread with nothing more to add than "Yep, what Jiggy said".
I wasn't saying he should gain an ability like that at 3rd level or sooner. It'd just be nice if a 20th-level fighter and a 1st-level fighter didn't have the same degree of magic dependency as each other when fighting incorporeal creatures.
A 20th-level fighter without magic is currently completely incapable of defeating a CR3 shadow. The threat of that CR3 monster hasn't changed since 1st level unless someone gave him some magic.
That is what shouldn't be happening. A high-level character should never have an absolute 100% dependency on a specific item/spell in order to have any chance of defeating a monster whose CR he's already passed.
Ah, I see. I thought you meant giving martial characters the ability to completely bypass an incorporeal creature's defenses. Giving them the ability to make their attacks count as magical (as per the monk) wouldn't be too bad.
Then again, it would beg the question, "Why bother having DR/magic except to harry low-level characters?" Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Heck if I know!
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I wasn't saying he should gain an ability like that at 3rd level or sooner. It'd just be nice if a 20th-level fighter and a 1st-level fighter didn't have the same degree of magic dependency as each other when fighting incorporeal creatures.
A 20th-level fighter without magic is currently completely incapable of defeating a CR3 shadow. The threat of that CR3 monster hasn't changed since 1st level unless someone gave him some magic.
That is what shouldn't be happening. A high-level character should never have an absolute 100% dependency on a specific item/spell in order to have any chance of defeating a monster whose CR he's already passed.
Ah, I see. I thought you meant giving martial characters the ability to completely bypass an incorporeal creature's defenses. Giving them the ability to make their attacks count as magical (as per the monk) wouldn't be too bad.
Then again, it would beg the question, "Why bother having DR/magic except to harry low-level characters?" Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Heck if I know!
To harry low-level characters and to pose credible threats to commoners and guards that might require the need of heroes to overocme. For example, the standard Gargoyle has DR 10/magic which means most of the guards using 1d8 longbows aren't going to penetrate the hide of the gargoyle, so it would require more powerful weapons, magical weapons, or the aid of adventurers who have the above.
Same with things like dragons. It's not so much that their scales are tough as steel, as much as they are resistant to non-magical attacks so an army of attacking a dragon might do diddly-squat to the dragon except for the case of their ballista or other siege weapons.
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@Odraude - I think we're getting lost in examples here. The core issue is this:
As the game progresses, you face bigger and badder foes. As a result, this is inescapable: You need sufficient X to overcome the increasing challenges.
In theory, X could be anything: levels, magic, gear, whatever. But the reason you're able to defeat now what you couldn't defeat before is because you've now acquired enough X.
Now if this is going to be a game where you can choose how you approach (such as by choosing a class), then for the game to be as fun as it can be, the following also needs to be true: Every class needs access to X.
X could still be anything, just as long as it's the same X. If continuing to advance requires sufficient poodles, then every class needs access to poodles. Or from the other direction, if the only thing you want every class to have access to is rhubarbs, then rhubarbs had better be capable of letting you advance.
Whatever you pick for one, you need to pick the same for the other.
Currently, Pathfinder fails in this regard: the only thing that everyone has access to is levels, but the thing you have to have in order to advance is magic.
The fighter MUST acquire magic in some form in order to keep playing, no matter what else he has. The wizard (or other PC with magic) can keep playing with relatively little regard for what other (nonmagical) things he lacks.
This is a flaw in the system: there's a mismatch between what you need and what you can access.
For Pathfinder to improve, it needs to align the two: either change what lets you advance from "magic" to "levels" (letting everyone gain tools to keep playing the game, as a function of level, independent of other factors); or else take the thing that's required to advance (magic) and make it more evenly accessible.
Either path is fine, as long as where we end up is that what's required to keep playing the game is readily and evenly accessible to everyone.
+1 totally on point Jiggy!
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I kind of agree with Odraude on the "hitting incorporeal creatures". I don't necessarily believe ever character should be able to do everything, since that is why it's expected that people belong to a party.
I do think there is still plenty of things you can give a fighter (either through fighter only feats/class abilities/fighter pools), without making a fighter out and out magical. At least they are not magical when Bruce Willis, Arnold Schwarzenegger, or Captain America does them. There are many things an action movie character does that a fighter should be able to do without breaking a sweat.
A fighter should know how to hit an enemy and leave him paralyzed/stunned/sickened/etc.
He should be proficient enough in the art of combat to know where to hit a foe to power past DR or armor
An experienced fighter should be able to create fear in his enemies that sends them running
An experienced fighter should be able to take a crap ton of damage and still keep going, even getting health back
He should be able to deflect arrows or even catch them, and reflect spells back onto their casters
Mow down pack of bad guys without even breaking stride
and etc etc
A fighter should be able to add his fighter level to ability scores to qualify for feats. starting at level 2 he should also add half his fighter levels to his base attack to determine what feats he can get. this is how i run it anyways.
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I kind of agree with Odraude on the "hitting incorporeal creatures". I don't necessarily believe ever character should be able to do everything, since that is why it's expected that people belong to a party.
I do think there is still plenty of things you can give a fighter (either through fighter only feats/class abilities/fighter pools), without making a fighter out and out magical. At least they are not magical when Bruce Willis, Arnold Schwarzenegger, or Captain America does them. There are many things an action movie character does that a fighter should be able to do without breaking a sweat.
A fighter should know how to hit an enemy and leave him paralyzed/stunned/sickened/etc.
He should be proficient enough in the art of combat to know where to hit a foe to power past DR or armor
An experienced fighter should be able to create fear in his enemies that sends them running
An experienced fighter should be able to take a crap ton of damage and still keep going, even getting health back
He should be able to deflect arrows or even catch them, and reflect spells back onto their casters
Mow down pack of bad guys without even breaking stride
and etc etc
A lot of this could be fixed by tweaking some of the feats.
Spring Attack: Allow the user to make all of their attacks while moving, give them a -4 to attack to do it, if you think it's overpowered.
Change Arcane Strike's prereqs to: Spells/SLAs or INT 13.
Give Fighter's Access to Awesome Blow, allow them to use it with Vital Strike and allow Vital Strike to be used with Mobility.
Open up Pounce as a Feat tree: Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Pounce.
Change Penetrating Strike and Greater Penetrating Strike to ignore up to 5 points of DR and 10 points of DR, with no silly restriction about it not working on creatures with DR higher than that, also make them available at level 6 and 12 respectively.
Have the Shield Trick feat grant fighters all of the abilities of Shield Trick.
Add a Greater Dazzling Display that allows Fighters to make a demoralization check as a swift action and also causes opponents to gain the Frightened condition if the Fighter beats the check by 5 or more.
So many little tweaks, Errata's to feats that would make all the bonus feats really a class feature.
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Some of the posts in this thread make me sad. What frustrate me are the constant complaints every time Paizo is releases something new.
During the playtest people raised there worry that the main problem with the rogue was is that it unfortunately brought the new classes down. The investigator and slayer was the two big concerns, but also Swashbuckler was a problem.
People loudly, and rightly so, pointed out that the new classes wasn’t the problem. The problem was the rogue (and to some extent the fighter).
Now when the Devs seems to have listened to us, people complain that the slayer is too good.
First of all, we haven’t seen the new classes nor do we know if the old classes get some new cool abilities or/and feats, but second, …….
….here it is: the slayer isn’t too good. Nor are any of the other new martial classes or the Investigator too good, it is the rogue, and to some extent the fighter, that are too weakSeriously, would we have been happy if they had nerfed the Slayer or the investigator because they would have been more powerful than the rouge. Me, I’m extremely happy that they didn’t use the rogue as their benchmark.
BTW, and the ranger? The ranger is still very much a valid class.
That is because we have two camps. Those who think the fighter and/or rogue are ok as is. The other camp are people like myself that think they could have used a boost. I like the slayer, and it will compete with the guide ranger for my "ninja" slot.
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I agree the fighter and rouge need a boost, but that don't mean the slayer need a nerf.
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Interestingly it was found in this thread that the Fighter's one big selling point, flat numerical bonuses that are really high, are completely eclipsed by the Barbarian.
Because some other class already exists for "huge numbers" I believe an Unchained Fighter should not be focused on having "Huge impressive numbers" like our good friend the BarBar, but instead on having "large bonuses" to all forms of combat as well as proficiency in them. The Fighters class features should allow him to make more use out of any piece of equipment he comes across. Light, medium, and heavy armor should all be worth more to a Fighter because the Fighter knows how to get more out of them. Close combat, ranged combat, sword and board, reach, thrown, ect should all be a Fighters specialty. Training that allows them to deal with Flying foes, scary foes, mind affecting foes, underground foes, gazing foes, ect should be a class feature.
At least that's how I see a "Fighter," not the current glorified "Warrior" NPC class that we have now.
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The Fighter should be the king of martial versatility. Able to pick up and rock any weapon and be pretty damned good at any maneuver, while able to run around protected in any armor.