I'm a GM with a Druid who is about to get level 4. He plans on bumping her INT to 4 which makes her sentient. Is this common for players to do with their animal companions? Wouldn't this change the dynamic of their relationship drastically? Or do most people play it as the druid still gets to command the companion around and tell it to do whatever the like?
Remember that the animal companion is magically bonded to the druid, in the same way a familiar (who is also sentient) is bonded to a wizard or witch.
I'd not worry about it.
There are also a few FAQs lying around that suggest that an animal with boosted intelligence isn't really sentient (e.g., you still need to use handle animal to tell it what to do, as it won't just listen to instructions and carry them out).
Most people play cohort or anyone that isn't a PC as if they get to command them and tell them to do whatever they like...so I see it as more a gamer issue in that many people as players want absolute control over everything granted as a class feature. Personally for animal companions or cohorts I think the GM should moderate the interaction a bit. While a cohort or animal companion should be intensely loyal and help them out, mistreatment by the PC should count for something and shouldn't go without notice.
That being said, boosting int does allow for selecting any feat instead of the normally restricted list allowed to animals.
I wouldn't enforce treatment and consideraiton of the animal companion any more than you already have honestly, it's too much trouble otherwise.
For what its worth take a look here for what Ultimate Campaign has to say about how animal companions and other companions should function and work with an PC.
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4 int is inside the sentient intelligence, but it isn't the same as "Awakened" (which gives 3d6). I play my druid players intelligence boosted animal companion like Lassy. Able to understand common, and reply with barks. As DM I tell her what her animal companion does when not in combat, but she gives it commands in combat.
I don't think an animal companion CAN have an Intelligence above 2. They are Animals, and that's a hard-coded part of that monster type. Familiars solve the issue by becoming Magical Beasts from the start, but animal companions do not.
I don't think an animal companion CAN have an Intelligence above 2. They are Animals, and that's a hard-coded part of that monster type. Familiars solve the issue by becoming Magical Beasts from the start, but animal companions do not.
The Paladin class would like to have a word with you.
The second type of bond allows a paladin to gain the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve her in her crusade against evil. This mount is usually a heavy horse (for a Medium paladin) or a pony (for a Small paladin), although more exotic mounts, such as a boar, camel, or dog are also suitable. This mount functions as a druid's animal companion, using the paladin's level as her effective druid level. Bonded mounts have an Intelligence of at least 6.
Once per day, as a full-round action, a paladin may magically call her mount to her side. This ability is the equivalent of a spell of a level equal to one-third the paladin's level. The mount immediately appears adjacent to the paladin. A paladin can use this ability once per day at 5th level, and one additional time per day for every 4 levels thereafter, for a total of four times per day at 17th level.
At 11th level, the mount gains the celestial template and becomes a magical beast for the purposes of determining which spells affect it. At 15th level, a paladin's mount gains spell resistance equal to the paladin's level + 11.
Should the paladin's mount die, the paladin may not summon another mount for 30 days or until she gains a paladin level, whichever comes first. During this 30-day period, the paladin takes a –1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls.
Animal companions can definitely have more than 2 int, and it is valid to use the ability score increase animals receive to boost their int or give them an item that increases their intelligence. How this affects them precisely hasn't been made abundantly clear, but they can definitely have more than int 2. You just can't awaken them.
They can have Intelligence above 2:
Animal companions with an Intelligence of 3 or higher can purchase ranks in any skill.
Animal companions with an Intelligence of 3 or higher can select any feat they are physically capable of using
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Thank you. Good answers. Basically: It's up to the GM what an increased Int on an Animal means.
When sorcerers introduce their familiars, it's usually "This is Blackwing. She is much, much smarter than me. I try not to let it bother me." This is the reason why wizard familiars look down on sorcerer familiar.
The animal still has to be trained, and does not automatically gain a language, so the player still has control. The difference is that it opens up more feats, and really the player could have stopped at int 3. As for how much reasoning it gives the animal that will be up to the GM.
From Paizo blog: Almost everything you wanted to know about intelligent animal companionsThis is incorrect. This is a blog about intelligent animals. Not about animal companions. There is a huge difference between the two. My DM tried to reference this for my druid... Doesn't make any sence.
This guy who posted that seems like my GM, lol. The title is called FAQ on intelligent animans. Not FAQ on intelligent animal companions and yet the word companion made it into his post on the article.
When an animal companion is given int 3 they receive sentience. This fact is sited in the books, however I don't have the reference in front of me. Which unlocks everthing that comes with it.
(I think this may have been from the paizo animal compendium or w/e it's called)
Animal companions are still animals. They follow the same rules regarding what increased Intelligence does for them. This includes access to any feat they qualify for and can feasibly use, but it doesn't change your gorilla companion's disinclination to use a greatsword. Whether that disinclination can be overcome is a matter between player and GM.
There have been multiple clarifications that Int 3 isn't quite the same as sentience. It's a very smart animal companion and capable of a bunch of new tricks, but still an animal (FAQ'd as not a magical beast, which is suggested in a couple of places). You still need to make Handle Animal checks, but can put skillpoints into Linguistics so that it can understand speech. It can now choose any relevant feat, too, rather than the restricted list.
With regards to roleplaying, there have been a number of real examples of very intelligent animals interacting with humans. The most common are Primates or Dolphins, to the extent that chimps and gorillas learned sign language and can teach it to their kids. Some Parrots have even been able to grasp vocabularies of a few hundred words and structure simple sentences to ask for things they want.
Regardless of how smart they are though, they will still continue to be animals. They won't fully understand human society and complexity even if they understand language, and still fall back on instinct when they're threatened. Even the best trained dog may bite someone threatening their family/puppies etc.
The only real way to give an animal companion true sentience is to cast Awaken. You might be able to house-rule something similar if you get the base Int to 4 and stick on a +Int headband too, but I've not seen anything specific on that. (Apologies for the mixed game-world/real-world post there)
Hodor is a great example of an int 3 creature.
I do think that it is too far fetched for an ape to start swinging around a longsword. Maybe in a certain circumstance it may pick up a blunt object or something. But if I ask my int 3 tiger to go pick up my shoes it should have no problem doing that without a handle animal check.
Same goes for defending an area or alerting master of trouble. Basic commands and simple common sense for int 3 should not be a problem.
Incorrect. According to the rules and blogpost you still have to make handle animal checks. And most of the things you listed are tricks governed directly by handle animal (Fetch, Guard, Defend).
As for weapons on Animal Companions - it has been said a number of times that just because an animal technically could pick up and use a manufactured weapon, they're still going to prefer their teeth/claws/whatever. If you Awaken them this may change, but your Animal Companion does not get to use a manufactured weapon.
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My Druid's tiger has a 4 Int. I gave him a rank in Linguistics so that he can understand common (but obviously not speak it). This allows him to understand what's going on around him no matter which party member is talking (unless they're trying to be stealthy and speaking something other than common), and that helps him contribute and know why she asks him to do things. Her handle animal is so high that she auto succeeds on checks, and he has all the necessary tricks, so I don't worry about it in combat. However outside of combat it's fun to play it however you want. Her companion is a big cat after all, and how often do cats do anything you want? :)
I like to give ape animal companions with a 3 int a rank in linguistics so it can use sign language with me.
I would like to know if a 4+INT allows a Druid to bypass handle animal checks for their companion, with a few ranks in linguistics is the animal intelligent enough to act independently without orders? It is most likely very loyal, but can it follow the intent of orders rather than the letter (ordered to guard the ranger, automatically assists with flanking?).
And, if a companion already has INT 5+, what happens when they wear a Collar of the true companion, does it still awaken? (does it work on creatures above 3 INT at all?).
Real questions concerning one of my player's celestial lion.
Well, the way I see the 'understand a language' part is that it can understand more complex instructions with specific key words.
"Go to camp. Fetch my sword"
Something nice, simply, and with a focus on keyphrases that it could be taught. This could also go with more specific examples like "Find Katie, and guard her". But learning names might require specific and very clear introductions to the animal...which might seem odd to other people...but hey....druids and rangers, right?
I doubt you could ask "Ok Polly, which of these three men implied they were going to murder the king, and what did he imply he was going to do it with?"
I also think that you could certainly teach it any feat it was able to use...but having it actually use it might require pushing (which requires an actual action on your part, even with a bonded animal). I look to a previous discussion about teaching animals Improved unarmed strikes- sure, they can learn it (I like to imagine those boxing kanagaroos), but they still prefer fighting tooth and claw (ie- those same boxing kangaroos seemed like they REALLY wanted to just grab the guy by the neck and tear his guts out with his legs claws...which is a thing kangaroos actually do, apparently). But this still leaves room for them to meet prerequisites for other nice things (Crane style chimpanzees!).
I would like to know if a 4+INT allows a Druid to bypass handle animal checks for their companion, with a few ranks in linguistics is the animal intelligent enough to act independently without orders? It is most likely very loyal, but can it follow the intent of orders rather than the letter (ordered to guard the ranger, automatically assists with flanking?).
And, if a companion already has INT 5+, what happens when they wear a Collar of the true companion, does it still awaken? (does it work on creatures above 3 INT at all?).
Real questions concerning one of my player's celestial lion.
Being intelligent does not mean you automatically understand a language. There are monsters in the bestiary that have above a 3, but dont have a language.
Being at intelligence 3+ and having linguistics ranks does not allow you to bypass Handle Animal checks, and has been specifically mentioned by the Dev team. Understanding a language is not the same as automatically obeying orders - there's a reason Handle Animal uses Charisma. Part of it is about either coaxing, asserting dominance or similar.
Does anyone really have problems with Handle Animal checks for ACs though, given that with the +4 circumstance bonus and +3 Class skill bonus alone you'll autosucceed on all checks for known tricks with only 4 skill ranks? (Unless you dumped Charisma, or traded out the Class skill)
Does anyone really have problems with Handle Animal checks for ACs though, given that with the +4 circumstance bonus and +3 Class skill bonus alone you'll autosucceed on all checks for known tricks with only 4 skill ranks? (Unless you dumped Charisma, or traded out the Class skill)
1 rank +3 skill +4 Link +2 training harness -3 charisma = +7 at first level with the worst charisma in the game. You need to roll a 3 (or maybe a 5). And even then you can set the critter to defend after breakfast so it will attack SOMETHING at least.
We're discussing Animal Companions here. They've usually got Int 3 by level 4 and a stack of bonus tricks. At level 4 your AC will have 11 tricks, and the number only increases. Combat trained (6 tricks) plus Flank, Track and Stay would be the mainstay, with two more situational tricks. Pushing an untrained, injured animal is pretty rare. Are you trying to turn the BBEG's Animal Companion against him?
The DC for a known trick is 10, 12 if it's injured. The +3 for Class Skill and +4 Circumstance Bonus for ACs cover up a multitude of sins. Skill checks do not auto fail on a 1, so having a total bonus of 11 means that your Animal Companion will do what you want (as a free action) every time. And that's without any bonus items.
Yes - if you regularly use Handle Animal on anything beyond your AC you will likely need more ranks. But for an AC you can be pretty crap and still auto-succeed. Actually, you only need an unmodified 8 in order to (take 10 and) succeed in things like rearing a Hippogriff chick.
For more information on Animals with INT above 2....
http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lc1y?Monkey-See-Monkey-Do-An-FAQ-on-In telligent -Direct LinkCan I improve my companion’s Intelligence to 3 or higher and give it weapon feats? Yes. Following the guidelines for animal companions as established on page 53 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook, this is legal. Your companion must be physically capable of wielding the weapon (no tigers with longswords, for example). Bear in mind, however, that an animal’s natural attacks nearly always yield better results than spending feat slots and gold pieces to equip your companion.
--Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play Pg 20However, for every point of Intelligence it gains above 2, that is three more tricks it can learn.
http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lejb?Animals-and-Their-Tricks -[Url=http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lejb?Animals-and-Their-Tricks/url]For an example let's use a Nature Oracle's Bonded Mount, which starts with a 6 Int. Its still an animal (which lacks the necessary vocal muscles to talk) and uses the animal companion chart.
It gets 3 tricks per point of INT which is 18, plus 1 for being an animal companion for a total of 19.
At 12th level it could have a 9 Int and know every trick in the book (30).
Yes, the PFS animal companion question...whoever wrote that apparently didn't look in the bestiary or core rulebook first. It's a stupid, stupid ruling, and no-one outside PFS should ever use it.
Int 3 means no longer having to use anything to do with Handle Animal, you just teach your companion a language and tell it what to do. If, as a GM, you don't like that, just disallow Int increases.
The answer given is what the rules say is allowed, and how it works according to the rules.
This is the rules forum, not the home-brew forum.
As I wrote, it's a PFS-specific FAQ, not the main rules FAQ. As in, it's a house rule for PFS (and a bad one at that).
Ok you don't like the PFS rule, how about the FAQ blog written by Jason Bulmahn - Lead Designer?
Once a creature's Int reaches 3, it also gains a language. This is where things start to get tricky. "Really, now my pet monkey can talk?" Well, not really. Allow me to explain.
Gaining a language does not necessarily grant the ability to speak. Most animals do not possess the correct anatomy for speech. While a very intelligent dolphin might be taught to understand Common, there's no way for him speak it....The Handle Animal skill functions similarly no matter how intelligent an animal becomes. A character must still make Handle Animal checks to train his animal and get him to perform the appropriate tasks...
Note that while the monster guidelines talk about a maximum Int for an animal, this only applies to the creation process. Giving an animal a higher Intelligence score does not somehow transform it into a magical beast, unless the effect says otherwise, such as in the case of awaken. Animals can grow to have an Int higher than 2 through a variety of means, but they should not, as a general rule, be created that way. --Link to Blog
God dammit Jason, would it kill you to read up on the rules before flinging your opinions at the audience?
Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence
score of 3 or higher can be an animal).
That's from appendix 3, creature types, which is full of hard rules. Not appendix 1 like you (Jason) claim. Creatures with Int 3+ can be taught to understand language. Numbers of tricks known for Int 3+ is not defined in Handle Animal (from a strict reading, you can't actually train int 3+ animals), because you teach them a bloody langue and use that to communicate.
I have to concede the point, Splendor. Jason's blog post is the most official ruling on the topic. It's still stupid s!*&, and directly contradicts existing rules without fixing whatever it is they think need fixing.
It's still stupid s%*&, and directly contradicts existing rules without fixing whatever it is they think need fixing.No, it doesn't contradict the current rules.
*(no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal).
*Handle Animal has rules for training Int 1 creatures and rules for training Int 2 creatures, and no rules for training creatures with any other Int score.
Pup, this a game "balance" issue. It would behoove you to recognize it as such. The developers don't want players to ignore the HA skill and circumvent it by simply raising their A/C's INT to 3.
Yes, it's a game balance issue. And the proper fix would have been to say "nothing can raise an Animal's Int score to more than 2".
Yes, it's a game balance issue. And the proper fix would have been to say "nothing can raise an Animal's Int score to more than 2".Based on what analysis?
I think the problem is that the idea of an animal with an int of 10(an example), but can't learn a language is immersion killing for some, and I do understand.
What I would have done is put a cap on animal intelligence or say that the animal's brain works differently for _____, but it is still to animal-like in its thinking to truly take advantage of the intelligence.
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Personally I look at similar to wraithstrike. An animal companion is just an animal, it doesn't matter how "smart" you make them they're just an animal and their brains work differently. The only way for an animal to know a language is through the spell "Awaken" or something similar. So basically, you can have an INT 10 _____, but it will only be able to do things that it's commanded to or things that are natural to it like an INT 2 version.
Now if you do decide to Awaken and animal companion I use the Animal Archive as a guide and go with that the animal can no longer serve as an Animal Companion and you have to take the Leadership Feat and treat it as a Cohort.
To me, this keeps things simple and elegant.
I think the problem is that the idea of an animal with an int of 10(an example), but can't learn a language is immersion killing for some, and I do understand.Your statement doesn't make sense. An animal with a 3 INT can learn a language.
What I think you might have meant to say is that if an animal learns a language, then Handle Animal shouldn't be needed.
I'll ask again, based on what analysis? This is whole thing is make believe. You know what's far more immersion breaking? The fact that plate mail armor makes you harder to hit but doesn't give you any damage reduction. You know what's immersion breaking? The fact that you can train a centipede to do tricks..at all.
The game is founded on ridiculous notions. On my list of top 500 things that are immersion breaking, still needing to use Handle Animal on a creature that can understand Common isn't on that list. In fact, allowing a druid/ranger to dump Charisma, eschew ranks in HA and then just get every trick in the book at level 4/5 because they taught their 3 INT animal Common, is way more stupid.
I know exactly what I meant to say, and having an int of 3 still means you need handle animal by the rules. I am not saying that makes sense, but that is what the rule is. That is also the what Pupsocket does not like.
You should also know than an int of 3 does not guarantee a language. If you put a rank into linguistics sure, but other than that they may not have one.
And what breaks immersion is subjective. But I do agree that insects learning tricks can be considered silly by some, but so can a lot of things in the game.
PS: My statement that I quoted says that it kills immersion<for Pupsocket) to have an int of 3, not be able to learn language. You read it as "it does not make sense for an animal to learn a language".
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I am late to the party but my 2cents.
An animal with 3+ Int has the ability to gain any skill and any feat the animal can physically handle (DM gets final say).
If you choose linguistics as a skill the animal learns a language of your choice (you are most likely training the animal the language). The animal does not get to speak the language unless it has the vocal range to do so. A water based animal might be able to speak Aquan.
If linguistics is taken tricks are out the window. The point of a trick is to train an animal that do an action after a phase. If it understands you then no need for your phrase anymore, maybe exclusion and attack twice. You still need to do handle animal checks. Just because you can understand me doesn't mean you will listen. Your handle animal is just to make sure your animal is listening.
Pupsocket is complaining that a) an animal can have a higher than 3 INT because she can't seem to wrap her head around how the rules are written; and b) that after learning a language, you still need to use Handle Animal.
Handle Animal is a hack that you use, because animals don't understand any languages, because they have Int 2. The rule books are very clear on this.
What I can't wrap my head around is the lead designer writing such a crappy fix in the blog, and doing the "it was always meant to be read that way" dance we remember so fondly from the Flurry of Blows debacle.
I'm also pissed, because fictional animal companions (not trained animals, animal companions) have been able to act independently and follow verbal instruction from their master for...I want to say centuries, but it's probably actually millennia.
If you wanted your animal companion to do something, and it was able to understand language, I as a GM would allow you to use Diplomacy instead of Handle Animal to get your AC to do what you want.
I would also be inclined to use the animal's intelligence score as a bonus for "pushing" the animal as it is easier for it to figure out what you mean.
Peet
PS: My statement that I quoted says that it kills immersion<for Pupsocket) to have an int of 3, not be able to learn language. You read it as "it does not make sense for an animal to learn a language".No, I did not read it as such.
Let's repeat what you said,
I think the problem is that the idea of an animal with an int of 10(an example), but can't learn a language is immersion killing for some, and I do understand.That is incorrect. It can learn a language. I never said it was automatic. As written, your statement is nonsensical.
Pupsocket is complaining that a) an animal can have a higher than 3 INT because she can't seem to wrap her head around how the rules are written; and b) that after learning a language, you still need to use Handle Animal.
Once again animals do not learn a language from having a higher int without linguistics. <---That is not my opinion. That is something the rules don't support. There is not rule saying int 3 = "I get a language".
Your inability to comprehend or admit you were wrong is the problem here.
Do I need to give you a word by word breakdown?
Simply answer yes or no.
What everyone who reads this thread should try and grasp is that the developers have gone out of their way to stop people from circumventing the Handle Animal skill and its requirements. You don't get to do an end around on Handle Animal by teaching your animal a language.
Most of us have already know this so "everyone" does not apply. If you stopped trying to argue and read you would have realized that.
Being at intelligence 3+ and having linguistics ranks does not allow you to bypass Handle Animal checks, and has been specifically mentioned by the Dev team.
But somehow YOU are the only ones that knows this.