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Mark,
I am hoping we can get some clarification on UMD's ability to emulate class features. Specifically, do the effective levels in the emulated class count for being considered a member of that class by the item?One item where UMD's interaction is particularly confusing is the Ring of Revelation.
** spoiler omitted **
It seems to me that UMD could be used to emulate the needed mystery (not actually gaining use of the mystery, just being able to use the ring as if you had it). With the ring acting as if you had the mystery it would grant you it's revelation. The hiccup comes in where it says you must be an oracle. When UMD says you have effective levels in a class, is this enough to be considered a member of said class for the use of the item?
If possible could you offer some further clarity on whether an oracle with a different mystery could use UMD to trick the ring as well. The confusion on this point stems from where UMD says, "Use Magic Device lets you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class." Is a character able to emulate a class feature of the same class that they do not have?
Ah, I asked this same question once long ago when I was making my PFS oracle Lazeril. It would seem by strict RAW that an oracle of the wrong mystery can probably use UMD to emulate another mystery, but non-oracles can't get around the oracle restriction. I'm guessing that, given the extreme power of some revelations, the item was designed either without thinking about UMD or assuming that it didn't work, but that's only idle speculation.
We ran into a question while discussing the concealment FAQ. Basically, how does the lowlight vision text in Special Abilities interact with the lowlight vision text in the lighting rules text of chapter 7 in the CRB?
Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day.In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat. Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the ability to see in darkness. A creature within an area of dim light can make a Stealth check to conceal itself. Areas of dim light include outside at night with a moon in the sky, bright starlight, and the area between 20 and 40 feet from a torch.Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters.Near as I can tell, there are a few possibilities here.
A: Lowlight vision users treat all Dim Light as Dim Light, but double the range of light sources. The text in special abilities was copied from 3.5 erroneously.
B: Lowlight vision users treat all Dim Light as normal light. In this case it seems very odd to ask lowlight users to double the range of dim light when using light tools.
C: Lowlight vision users specifically treat moonlight as daylight, but otherwise follow the Dim Light rules. This doesn't require any changes, but seems oddly specific.
While I'd certainly be interested in your personal opinion, I also wanted to mention this since I know there's a big Lighting FAQ in the pipelines. It'd be nice to knock two FAQs off the list in one go!
Hybrid of B and C proposed by others from the crossposted thread: Areas that other character count as low light areas such as moonlight count as a normal day; the areas that count as dim light for low-light vision are ones that would count as dark for other characters.
About the Scizore:
If you have a +1 Scizore, do you get a +1 to the Shield bonus to your AC in addition to the +1 to attack and damage?
Can you use Shield Bash Feats with a Scizore, like Shield Slam, for instance?
Benefit: The scizore grants a +1 shield bonus to AC, but if you attack with the blade, you lose the AC bonus that round and take a –1 penalty on attack rolls with the scizore. While wearing a scizore, you cannot use that hand for anything else. A scizore provides a +10 bonus to your CMD against being disarmed of your scizore. Donning a scizore is a full-round action.
Scizore is not a shield, it just has the "shield" type on the AC bonus it grants, like the Two-Weapon Defense feat. Enhancing the scizore does not increase that bonus, not do shield feats affect it.
my question was - if you are rogue who is blinking (spell or ring) - can you deal sneak attack damage to others (though you have a miss chance it isn't actually concealment as much as the fact that you are Ethereal) - so nothing about getting sneak attacked yourself (improved uncanny dodge would help you there most likely) but whether you could DEAL sneak attack damage yourself.
I think the answer is yes but would like confirmation.
It is concealment in particular, not all miss chances, that prevent precision. So like a barbarian spirit totem 20% miss chance wouldn't prevent sneak attack either.
Contributor
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It is concealment in particular, not all miss chances, that prevent precision. So like a barbarian spirit totem 20% miss chance wouldn't prevent sneak attack either.my question was - if you are rogue who is blinking (spell or ring) - can you deal sneak attack damage to others (though you have a miss chance it isn't actually concealment as much as the fact that you are Ethereal) - so nothing about getting sneak attacked yourself (improved uncanny dodge would help you there most likely) but whether you could DEAL sneak attack damage yourself.
I think the answer is yes but would like confirmation.
Does this mean that displacement won't prevent precision damage? The language used is "as if it had total concealment".
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Contributor
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Hybrid of B and C proposed by others from the crossposted thread: Areas that other character count as low light areas such as moonlight count as a normal day; the areas that count as dim light for low-light vision are ones that would count as dark for other characters.We ran into a question while discussing the concealment FAQ. Basically, how does the lowlight vision text in Special Abilities interact with the lowlight vision text in the lighting rules text of chapter 7 in the CRB?
Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day.In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat. Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the ability to see in darkness. A creature within an area of dim light can make a Stealth check to conceal itself. Areas of dim light include outside at night with a moon in the sky, bright starlight, and the area between 20 and 40 feet from a torch.Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters.Near as I can tell, there are a few possibilities here.
A: Lowlight vision users treat all Dim Light as Dim Light, but double the range of light sources. The text in special abilities was copied from 3.5 erroneously.
B: Lowlight vision users treat all Dim Light as normal light. In this case it seems very odd to ask lowlight users to double the range of dim light when using light tools.
C: Lowlight vision users specifically treat moonlight as daylight, but otherwise follow the Dim Light rules. This doesn't require any changes, but seems oddly specific.
While I'd certainly be interested in your personal opinion, I also wanted to mention this since I know there's a big Lighting FAQ in the pipelines. It'd be nice to knock two FAQs off the list in one go!
Could you clarify this, please? I'm not certain what you mean.
Is something like light a 40-ft. radius of normal light (beyond which all is total darkness) for a character with low-light vision?
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Does this mean that displacement won't prevent precision damage? The language used is "as if it had total concealment".It is concealment in particular, not all miss chances, that prevent precision. So like a barbarian spirit totem 20% miss chance wouldn't prevent sneak attack either.my question was - if you are rogue who is blinking (spell or ring) - can you deal sneak attack damage to others (though you have a miss chance it isn't actually concealment as much as the fact that you are Ethereal) - so nothing about getting sneak attacked yourself (improved uncanny dodge would help you there most likely) but whether you could DEAL sneak attack damage yourself.
I think the answer is yes but would like confirmation.
Honestly, I'm surprised, given how many times I have seen that question, that it isn't in the FAQ queue. Oh "as if," you rascally phrase. The question is how far "as if" goes. I think it means "you actually have total concealment except for the part where you can't be targeted" and so, for instance, I wouldn't roll two miss chances if I also had blur. If you think that "as if" is just reminding people that concealment is the #1 way to get a miss chance, then it would stack with blur for two miss chances but wouldn't prevent sneak attack. Given that entropic shield doesn't say "as if from concealment," I think the latter is unlikely.
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...HybridWe ran into a question while discussing the concealment FAQ. Basically, how does the lowlight vision text in Special Abilities interact with the lowlight vision text in the lighting rules text of chapter 7 in the CRB?
Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day.In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat. Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the ability to see in darkness. A creature within an area of dim light can make a Stealth check to conceal itself. Areas of dim light include outside at night with a moon in the sky, bright starlight, and the area between 20 and 40 feet from a torch.Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters.Near as I can tell, there are a few possibilities here.
A: Lowlight vision users treat all Dim Light as Dim Light, but double the range of light sources. The text in special abilities was copied from 3.5 erroneously.
B: Lowlight vision users treat all Dim Light as normal light. In this case it seems very odd to ask lowlight users to double the range of dim light when using light tools.
C: Lowlight vision users specifically treat moonlight as daylight, but otherwise follow the Dim Light rules. This doesn't require any changes, but seems oddly specific.
While I'd certainly be interested in your personal opinion, I also wanted to mention this since I know there's a big Lighting FAQ in the pipelines. It'd be nice to knock two FAQs off the list in one go!
Normal person: 20 ft. of normal light and 20 ft. of dim.
Low-light person: 40 ft. of normal light and 40 ft. of dim.
...Hybrid of B and C proposed by others from the crossposted thread: Areas that other character count as low light areas such as moonlight count as a normal day; the areas that count as dim light for low-light vision are ones that would count as dark for other characters.We ran into a question while discussing the concealment FAQ. Basically, how does the lowlight vision text in Special Abilities interact with the lowlight vision text in the lighting rules text of chapter 7 in the CRB?
Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day.In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat. Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the ability to see in darkness. A creature within an area of dim light can make a Stealth check to conceal itself. Areas of dim light include outside at night with a moon in the sky, bright starlight, and the area between 20 and 40 feet from a torch.Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters.Near as I can tell, there are a few possibilities here.
A: Lowlight vision users treat all Dim Light as Dim Light, but double the range of light sources. The text in special abilities was copied from 3.5 erroneously.
B: Lowlight vision users treat all Dim Light as normal light. In this case it seems very odd to ask lowlight users to double the range of dim light when using light tools.
C: Lowlight vision users specifically treat moonlight as daylight, but otherwise follow the Dim Light rules. This doesn't require any changes, but seems oddly specific.
While I'd certainly be interested in your personal opinion, I also wanted to mention this since I know there's a big Lighting FAQ in the pipelines. It'd be nice to knock two FAQs off the list in one go!
Here is how I take what he said. Let's say a common lamp creates an area of light with a 15 foot radius, and a dim light radius out to 30 feet for normal creatures. For an LLV character that radius is doubled. The dim lighting area is treated as 60 feet out for them instead of 30 and in addition this dim light is treated as normal light for them.
Beyond that is darkness.
edit: If that is not what you meant feel free to correct me Mark.
Here is how I take what he said. Let's say a common lamp creates an area of light with a 15 foot radius, and a dim light radius out to 30 feet for normal creatures. For an LLV character that radius is doubled. The dim lighting area is treated as 60 feet out for them instead of 30 and in addition this dim light is treated as normal light for them.
Beyond that is darkness.
I don't think that's what I said, but I'm not sure. If you would characterize it as "creatures with low-light vision never experience the light level known as low light," then that isn't quite right.
Ok. I will step aside then :)
Ah, I asked this same question once long ago when I was making my PFS oracle Lazeril. It would seem by strict RAW that an oracle of the wrong mystery can probably use UMD to emulate another mystery, but non-oracles can't get around the oracle restriction. I'm guessing that, given the extreme power of some revelations, the item was designed either without thinking about UMD or assuming that it didn't work, but that's only idle speculation.Mark,
I am hoping we can get some clarification on UMD's ability to emulate class features. Specifically, do the effective levels in the emulated class count for being considered a member of that class by the item?One item where UMD's interaction is particularly confusing is the Ring of Revelation.
** spoiler omitted **
It seems to me that UMD could be used to emulate the needed mystery (not actually gaining use of the mystery, just being able to use the ring as if you had it). With the ring acting as if you had the mystery it would grant you it's revelation. The hiccup comes in where it says you must be an oracle. When UMD says you have effective levels in a class, is this enough to be considered a member of said class for the use of the item?
If possible could you offer some further clarity on whether an oracle with a different mystery could use UMD to trick the ring as well. The confusion on this point stems from where UMD says, "Use Magic Device lets you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class." Is a character able to emulate a class feature of the same class that they do not have?
I would call the description of the ring, the "general" rule. The UMD emulation is the "exception". To my mind, the note about "only Oracles" is just a clarifying afterthought for normal use of the item. If you can emulate class features, race, and alignment with UMD...you can use the ring.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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If you have Bodyguard and Arcane Strike, when you take an Attack of Opportunity do you add the Arcane Strike bonus to the AC granted? You would not be able to activate Arcane Strike because it isn't your turn.
Bobyguard
When an adjacent ally is attacked, you may use an attack of opportunity to attempt the aid another action to improve your ally’s AC.Gloves of Arcane Striking
When the wearer uses the aid another action to improve an ally’s Armor Class, the ally also adds the wearer’s Arcane Strike damage bonus to his AC against the opponent.
What's your favorite class to make a necromancer with?
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Mark, I am making a new armor enchantment called Quickness this enchantment simply removes the slows function from heavier armors.
How much would you charge for this I was thinking in the range between 2500gp and 5000gp?
I am glad you escaped from the vile clutches of Cosmo last week. He was planing on charging us $50 a post of yours for his Gencon vacation fund.
I also have a few weapons questions for you. What would the stats be for sword breaker the iconic swashbuckler is using?
Have you heard of a weapon called a Nagamaki? I am tying to stat it up as I think it is a very cool weapon. It is like a nodachi but it has a thicker longer blade and a longer handle. I was thinking of 1d10 or 1d12 18-20x2, what do you think? The weapon was used in the edo period by foot troops against mounted samurai. Sometime it was used by mount troops that wanted a reach weapon.
Mark, are you allowed to make a thread that could receive FAQ requests? Like I'm not asking you too, but do you have questions you wish were FAQed and could you make threads in hope to garner support so you could answer them?
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Mark, I am making a new armor enchantment called Quickness this enchantment simply removes the slows function from heavier armors.
How much would you charge for this I was thinking in the range between 2500gp and 5000gp?
I am glad you escaped from the vile clutches of Cosmo last week. He was planing on charging us $50 a post of yours for his Gencon vacation fund.
I also have a few weapons questions for you. What would the stats be for sword breaker the iconic swashbuckler is using?
Have you heard of a weapon called a Nagamaki? I am tying to stat it up as I think it is a very cool weapon. It is like a nodachi but it has a thicker longer blade and a longer handle. I was thinking of 1d10 or 1d12 18-20x2, what do you think? The weapon was used in the edo period by foot troops against mounted samurai. Sometime it was used by mount troops that wanted a reach weapon.
Yes, I noticed that the illustration of the Nodachi in both UC and UE is sort of half way between a proper Nodachi and a proper Nagamaki. The description, however, is spot on for a Nagamaki and matches yours very closely. I would think it pretty safe to use the Nodachi stats for both. They are about the same length in illustrations I have seen, just Nodachi has a longer blade and Nagamaki has a longer grip.
Incidentally, the nagamaki is totes the inspiration for the weapons used by the elven infantry in the prologue of Fellowship of the Ring.
Which parts of unchained do you plan on incorporating into your games?
I think what Mark was saying is that a LLV character would have 30 feet of normal vision and then 30 more feet of dim vision, then darkness for that common lamp, however, moonlight and bright starlight (ambient outdoor lighting conditions) would be normal light for LLV characters (dim for normal characters).I don't think that's what I said, but I'm not sure. If you would characterize it as "creatures with low-light vision never experience the light level known as low light," then that isn't quite right.Here is how I take what he said. Let's say a common lamp creates an area of light with a 15 foot radius, and a dim light radius out to 30 feet for normal creatures. For an LLV character that radius is doubled. The dim lighting area is treated as 60 feet out for them instead of 30 and in addition this dim light is treated as normal light for them.
Beyond that is darkness.
ok. That makes sense.
Mark, how annoyed are you with all of the rules questions on your thread?
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Mark, how annoyed are you with all of the rules questions on your thread?My guess is that he wouldn't be too, too annoyed: rules questions is the purpose of this thread, isn't it?
No, the purpose is to ask Markk *all* of your questions. Like asking what to eat for breakfast, his opinions on shows, whether or not to sell all of your worldly possessions and live the life of a hermit, etc.
Mark, have you ever been contacted for help by both players and the GM in the same campaign? Most of my friends and family turn to me for Pathfinder help. The GM is starting a new campaign and wants me help in designing it. At the same time, the players are asking my help in designing their characters.
I feel a little like the Lord of War here, selling to both sides.
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Pathfinder Unchained is arguably the most important product you've worked on to date, and has one of the bravest introductions I've yet to read in a RPG book. It's just started shipping out to preorders, and the first impressions are starting to come in. The first reviews are popping up as I type this.
How scary is it?
The first review is probably just around the corner.Actually, there are already reviews posted.
Wow, that didn't take long. Revising my post, thanks!
If you have Bodyguard and Arcane Strike, when you take an Attack of Opportunity do you add the Arcane Strike bonus to the AC granted? You would not be able to activate Arcane Strike because it isn't your turn.
Bobyguard
When an adjacent ally is attacked, you may use an attack of opportunity to attempt the aid another action to improve your ally’s AC.Gloves of Arcane Striking
When the wearer uses the aid another action to improve an ally’s Armor Class, the ally also adds the wearer’s Arcane Strike damage bonus to his AC against the opponent.
I'm guessing you're asking if it means "the wearer's <current> Arcane Strike damage bonus" or "the wearer's <potential> Arcane Strike damage bonus." Since Arcane Strike lasts for one round, this only seems relevant if the bodyguard character didn't activate Arcane Strike on her previous turn. Clearly if she did, then it is still active and she gets the bonus on the Bodyguard AoOs.
What's your favorite class to make a necromancer with?
I had a player in one campaign who made a necromancer cleric of Urgathoa who was lots of fun, but it's a tough decision between that and wizard (necromancer).
Mark, I am making a new armor enchantment called Quickness this enchantment simply removes the slows function from heavier armors.
How much would you charge for this I was thinking in the range between 2500gp and 5000gp?
I am glad you escaped from the vile clutches of Cosmo last week. He was planing on charging us $50 a post of yours for his Gencon vacation fund.
I also have a few weapons questions for you. What would the stats be for sword breaker the iconic swashbuckler is using?
Have you heard of a weapon called a Nagamaki? I am tying to stat it up as I think it is a very cool weapon. It is like a nodachi but it has a thicker longer blade and a longer handle. I was thinking of 1d10 or 1d12 18-20x2, what do you think? The weapon was used in the edo period by foot troops against mounted samurai. Sometime it was used by mount troops that wanted a reach weapon.
I would probably make that quickness enchant cost a + equivalent, not a flat cost.
I didn't hear about Cosmo's plan.
I would use the swordbreaker from the APG.
Based on my limited knowledge of Japanese swordsI agree with CFtP on using the PFRPG nodachi stats for nagamaki.
Which parts of unchained do you plan on incorporating into your games?
Depends on which game. I know the GMs in my homegroup pretty much want to use the variant magic item creation rules in most games, for one.
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Mark, how annoyed are you with all of the rules questions on your thread?
I don't mind. Early on, people asked if rules questions were OK, and I said yes as long as they don't completely outweigh all the other questions, and as long as people respect that they aren't official answers. You guys have done a great job making sure that they haven't outweighed the other questions and that people respect them as just a PoV, and so I'm happy to throw my two cents about rules questions too.
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Mark, how annoyed are you with all of the rules questions on your thread?My guess is that he wouldn't be too, too annoyed: rules questions is the purpose of this thread, isn't it?No, the purpose is to ask Markk *all* of your questions. Like asking what to eat for breakfast, his opinions on shows, whether or not to sell all of your worldly possessions and live the life of a hermit, etc.
Mark, have you ever been contacted for help by both players and the GM in the same campaign? Most of my friends and family turn to me for Pathfinder help. The GM is starting a new campaign and wants me help in designing it. At the same time, the players are asking my help in designing their characters.
I feel a little like the Lord of War here, selling to both sides.
That sounds pretty funny. You could always help them both in such a way that it leads to a really synergistic and interesting game, like help build the GM encounters that will be challenging but also highlight the awesome powers of the characters you are helping build in a balanced way, so each one gets a cool spotlight moment.
Have you seen Quickdraw?
It's on Hulu
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Pathfinder Unchained is arguably the most important product you've worked on to date, and has one of the bravest introductions I've yet to read in a RPG book. It's just started shipping out to preorders, and the first impressions are starting to come in. The first reviews are popping up as I type this.
How scary is it?
I would be scared, but I'm confident in some of the awesome stuff in there. I said a while ago that my personal attempt at a realistic goal is that pretty much everyone would have a few components that they wanted to use most or all of the time, more that they would have in reserve for a particular time when it would fit the campaign, and that it might spur people's imaginations to create more options beyond the book. So far, that seems pretty true.
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In the following situation, how is the surprise round handled?
A stealthy/Improved Invisible creature wishes to begin a fight with a full-round action.
(such as a Stilled, Silent Summon Monster spell or a Whirlwind Attack)
My view of the surprise round is that it is the round when some but not all of the combatants are aware of the opposing side's presence, and after the round's actions have occurred, the unaware people will for sure know about the others. So casting prebuffs far away or invisibly pre-summoning something, if nobody hears you, could occur before the surprise round even.
Have you seen Quickdraw?
It's on Hulu
Nope, how is it? I am currently watching Daredevil on Netflix.
What do you think of DD?Nope, how is it? I am currently watching Daredevil on Netflix.Have you seen Quickdraw?
It's on Hulu
I think it's pretty OK. Matt himself isn't particularly gripping as a character, but the supporting cast is pretty strong. I'd say it's better than Gotham, which is the most similar show in theme that I've seen recently.
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I have a limited gaming income. We use all the rules, more or less, as they come available on d20pfsrd or Archives of Nethys. I purchased the CRB to support Paizo, specifically because 90% of the rules you need to quickly look up are there.
Given I probably won't buy more than a book a year, what would you recommend as my second hardcover? Again, since we use web references, this would be whatever is likely to get the most use.
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I have a limited gaming income. We use all the rules, more or less, as they come available on d20pfsrd or Archives of Nethys. I purchased the CRB to support Paizo, specifically because 90% of the rules you need to quickly look up are there.
Given I probably won't buy more than a book a year, what would you recommend as my second hardcover? Again, since we use web references, this would be whatever is likely to get the most use.
Hmm. I think since you have computer access and limited cash, you might want to consider buying several of the super-discount-priced $9.99 pdfs instead of one hardcover. If you do get a hardcover, you'll probably want one where the flippable and physical nature of the book is a big advantage over having the info all in text. In that regard, one of the Bestiaries or a Codex has tons of art, so any of them would be a great choice.
I think it's pretty OK. Matt himself isn't particularly gripping as a character, but the supporting cast is pretty strong. I'd say it's better than Gotham, which is the most similar show in theme that I've seen recently.What do you think of DD?Nope, how is it? I am currently watching Daredevil on Netflix.Have you seen Quickdraw?
It's on Hulu
I was just coming over here to see what you thought of it myself if you were watching.
Do you watch the other comic book shows currently on? Agents of Shield, Flash, Arrow, etc.?
If so, what do you think of them?
I think it's pretty OK. Matt himself isn't particularly gripping as a character, but the supporting cast is pretty strong. I'd say it's better than Gotham, which is the most similar show in theme that I've seen recently.What do you think of DD?Nope, how is it? I am currently watching Daredevil on Netflix.Have you seen Quickdraw?
It's on Hulu
I was just coming over here to see what you thought of it myself if you were watching.
Do you watch the other comic book shows currently on? Agents of Shield, Flash, Arrow, etc.?
If so, what do you think of them?
Flash and Arrow have their moments, but they also have the CW drama, sometimes too much. Agents of Shield S1 was so boring and utterly unengaging that I couldn't keep watching it. I can't even remember it that well, which is rare for me. I watched to the point where they brought back the super from episode 1 and something boring happened; I think there was a hiatus, and I didn't return. I have heard that it gets better, but I couldn't motivate myself to get to that point. The DC ones may get a circumstance bonus, though, by my knowledge of that universe through the cartoons as a kid.
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How often do you use Pathfinder inside jokes and puns in your everyday life? Do you ever get weird looks when you do so? Or do you strictly keep it to gaming friends?
In case you are unclear of my meaning:
The DC ones may get a circumstance bonus, though, by my knowledge of that universe through the cartoons as a kid.^ stuff like that.
Or like when a friend is looking for the phone and it's sitting in front of them and you exclaim, "Way to fail the DC 0 Perception check!"
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Mr. Mark Seifter,
In your estimation would taking the APG summoner and switching out the spell list for the unchained spell list and leaving pounce as a 3 point evolution be an acceptable course of action? Would you allow it at your table?