So, my group was playing through a home made game. We were going to pass through a forest notorious for bandit and goblin attacks, so as an alchemist, I took my dex-based mutagen so if we encountered anything, I could be ready with my bombs. Upon taking the mutagen, my GM informed me that I had burst out of my leather armor.
His reasoning for this is because in all pictures where you see an alchemist mid-transformation, whatever clothing they're wearing is being ripped apart because of the transformation. I brought up the fact that no where in any book does taking a mutagen cause you to destroy any clothing or armor you're wearing. So, if you take a mutagen, is your clothing/armor destroyed, and if so, could I make something that functions like wild armor like druid's get for their wildshape ability?
No, this is a ruling that does nothing except screw you over. The mutagen has no size increase so your armor should still fit.
Mutagen doesn't destroy your armour. Your GM was houseruling, and a bad houserule at that too.
He said it's part of the aesthetic of the Alchy. "In every picture where they're transforming, whatever they're wearing is broken or ripped to shreds." So he says.
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In every picture of someone expressing foolish opinions, the speaker is rapidly pummeled into submission. Pummel him into submission.
Or, for a less violent solution, tell him that due to his poor DMing making things unenjoyable you may have to leave the game. Which you might actually have to do.
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SO you get abilities based on the pictures in the books? Sweet! Time to find an awesome picture and give yourself a cool power because it's in the picture! ;)
I would just talk to him aside and show him the book and how it doesn't say anything about armor breaking. If he still says your armor breaks then you might just need to find another game or ask for another character.
All Gms I dealt with never said your armor is trashed just it adjusts to your new shape ie mutagen magical aura effect not just you but what your wearing.
Even if he did have a leg to stand on about things in other media bursting out of their clothing (which he doesn't)...
1.) Why would a Dex (i.e. not having anything to do with muscle bulk) Mutagen do it?
2.) Why would the Alchemist be proficient in armor in the first place if this was the intent?
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Well I talked to him(and showed him all the aggro he pulled). He says that he's changed his mind on the whole subject. He's gonna be a bit butthurt for a while, but I don't think he'll do anything like that for a while.
Well I talked to him(and showed him all the aggro he pulled). He says that he's changed his mind on the whole subject. He's gonna be a bit butthurt for a while, but I don't think he'll do anything like that for a while.
Good thing. A DM that can change his mind if he understand that he's wrong is a good thing.
What mechanics cause this armor ripping anyway? Outside of some of the heavy armors (which have to specifically tailored), all armors fit any humanoid build of the size they are intended for.
That leather armor fits just as well on an anorexic, 4 foot tall dwarf as it does on an obese, 8 foot tall orc. This is one of the most basic concessions between 'realism' and 'not making the game overly complicated, annoying, and difficult to use', since adding physic as well as size in determining whether you can wear armor would just make looting impossible.
Unless you are growing to large size, there should be no problems. And even in the only instance I remember where a mutagen could change your size (the growth mutagen ability from the Master Chymist prestige class), it is specifically called out as working like enlarge person (which makes you armor grow with you.
And even thematically, while I could understand having your normal clothes tear for 'image', I cannot see that for armor. It is just too easy to imagine adjustable straps holing everything together, and overall it seems like tougher stuff than normal clothes. I mean, would he do this if you were wearing a breast plate (or other metal armor besides chain-anything) as well?
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The Hulk's pants don't split, despite definitely changing size categories, as well as a completely different physique. In the films, he changes several size categories.
But that may be due to the artists being sensitive to the squeamishness of their target audience (or their parents).
Been explained.
Mr.Fantastic made pants for Bruce Banner.
Re-confirmed by Stan Lee.
This sounds like a rule one of my GMs might do as well. He is more on realism and will houserule if he feels it's appropriate.
However, whenever he has made some funky rule like this, he gives options to build armor/item to 'fix' the problem.
For example, I have also have an Alchemist in his campaign and have a Prehensile Tail. I want to be able to pull out items from a Handy Haversack as a swift action (ability of the tail). He said for me to use the swift action economy I would need to make alterations on the Handy Haversack (when having it crafted. i.e. pay more) as it doesn't allow you to pull items as a swift action normally.
Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer.
Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer.
Not applicable. Armor and weapons are specifically stated not to do so, and armor was the problem.
If magic armor resized itself automatically, there would be no need for this line:
When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered, most of the time size shouldn't be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items.
There may be rare exceptions, especially with race-specific items.
Armor and Weapon Sizes: Armor and weapons that are found at random have a 30% chance of being Small (01–30), a 60% chance of being Medium (31–90), and a 10% chance of being any other size (91–100).
Yea, that would be a bit odd then.
OK! Next argument!
The closest effect to what the mutagen is is a polymorph effect. This explicitly says any armor that isn't melded in resizes.
Next, Next Argument!
How do we know that the images where the alchemist isn't tearing his clothes off aren't showing an alchemist under the effects of his mutagen?
I know that Sean had a post about this. I'm trying to find it.
Also, a class ability that freaking ruins your magic items is beyond stupid. Especially when it doesn't explicitly say so.
The eight-foot obese orc argument is the best one I've seen for this. There might be a case for enforcing some difficulties if wearing full plate (since it's custom-fitted for the wearer), but I wouldn't even enforce it then--the custom fitting should include a bit extra range of motion to compensate for the price. Plus, it's boring and adds nothing to the game. Pluuuuus, when's the last time you played an alchemist in full plate?
...
...*challenge accepted*
If magic armor resized itself automatically, there would be no need for this line:
When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered, most of the time size shouldn't be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items.
There may be rare exceptions, especially with race-specific items.
Armor and Weapon Sizes: Armor and weapons that are found at random have a 30% chance of being Small (01–30), a 60% chance of being Medium (31–90), and a 10% chance of being any other size (91–100).
The question is not so much whether armor has sizes or that they can be worn by creatures out of those size categories, but whether someone using a mutagen constitutes enough of a change, and whether the size limits on items are that restrictive.
For my evidence, I am going to bring in Creature Size Table. In that, it lists a medium creature as something that is between "4-8" feet tall and between "60-500" pounds (with the general assumption that this is using the density of regular flesh and blood, and that stone creatures and such could be much heavier for their weight, and some more airy creatures and such like fire or air elementals are much lighter)
That is still enough of a range to go from 'starving shrimp' to 'Basketball/Sumo star' due to mutagens and not change size categories. And even if the bit you quoted, the sizes are not really defined any more precisely than that (since it would generally be troublesome). If you want 'realism'... well, armor can have straps holding it together, but those straps only go so far (ie. the difference in circumference of shin guards for your soccer playing sister's legs, and shin guards for a beefy hill giant).
If your GM has told you that your light armor doesn't fit.... then you are not the same size category anymore. Tell him that you suddenly get the reach of a large creature. Otherwise, this is just putting restrictions on the basic abilities of your class, and makes you even worse off than druids (they get good natural armor that makes up for the trouble of not being able to wear their original armor prior to getting special properties).
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The eight-foot obese orc argument is the best one I've seen for this. There might be a case for enforcing some difficulties if wearing full plate (since it's custom-fitted for the wearer), but I wouldn't even enforce it then--the custom fitting should include a bit extra range of motion to compensate for the price. Plus, it's boring and adds nothing to the game. Pluuuuus, when's the last time you played an alchemist in full plate?
...
...*challenge accepted*
Dwarf Vivisectionist.
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Why would a mutagen actually change your physical bulk anyway? It doesn't come with a weight increase. It just reduces your mental clarity to boost your physique. Methheads aren't shapechangers.
If we start using artwork to determine the physical effects of class abilities, what is the fighter class doing to this poor fellow's arm?!
Why would a mutagen actually change your physical bulk anyway? It doesn't come with a weight increase. It just reduces your mental clarity to boost your physique. Methheads aren't shapechangers.
If we start using artwork to determine the physical effects of class abilities, what is the fighter class doing to this poor fellow's arm?!
It is magic. Physics has little to nothing to do with it (well, besides how many laws of the universe get bent to your will). I already mentioned the master chymist prestige class, which is based around the idea of 'an alchemist that likes mutagens, and wants to be Dr.Jekyll/Mr.Hyde'. That class specifically has an ability that makes the mutagen also act like an 'enlarge person' spell.