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Yeah it's assumed that a potion is essentially an already completed spell that you infuse into a liquid. Because it only needs to be consumed to take effect, and not completed, it can only be used with spells you can cast on others. That's why you can't put spells with area effects like fireball into a potion, because that wouldn't work.
You can put these spells onto scrolls because a scroll is a partially-completed spell that is then finished casting, and you can put them into wands because the wand casts the spell. Potions are completed spells suspended in liquid, so they only work with certain spells.
Yea, but the first hit is usually going to hit anyways, since it is at your full BAB. And you gave up a full round's worth of actions to get a probably-inconsequential bonus.
Usually =/= "only miss on a 1 and ignore any (flat) miss chances for concealment (which are separate from attack rolls)."
If you think it's "inconsequential," then you'd be OK with your GM giving all the rogues (ninjas, assassins, etc.) your party faces potions of invisibility (300 gp) and potions of true strike (50 gp), right? 350 gp, guaranteed Sneak Attack damage (except when rolling a 1 or if the victim just happens to have see invisibility or true seeing up at the right time). It's about the same market price as a masterwork weapon and the PCs aren't likely to gain them as treasure, since they'll be consumed.
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Yea, but the first hit is usually going to hit anyways, since it is at your full BAB. And you gave up a full round's worth of actions to get a probably-inconsequential bonus.Usually =/= "only miss on a 1 and ignore any (flat) miss chances for concealment (which are separate from attack rolls)."
If you think it's "inconsequential," then you'd be OK with your GM giving all the rogues (ninjas, assassins, etc.) your party faces potions of invisibility (300 gp) and potions of true strike (50 gp), right? 350 gp, guaranteed Sneak Attack damage (except when rolling a 1 or if the victim just happens to have see invisibility or true seeing up at the right time). It's about the same market price as a masterwork weapon and the PCs aren't likely to gain them as treasure, since they'll be consumed.
Not really... uncanny dodge, concealment, poor lighting... I'm sure there are things that can negate getting sneak attack for the invisible rogue. And spending money on a potion to get the effects of a flanking buddy just tell me that he's not necessarily using the potion to greatest effect.
I was also under the impression the invisibility (1 min per level, stops after an attack action) is not greater invisibility (1 round per level, keeps going, 4th level spell). As a one shot item, it would be very expensive to keep using consumables of this sort.
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Yea, but the first hit is usually going to hit anyways, since it is at your full BAB. And you gave up a full round's worth of actions to get a probably-inconsequential bonus.Usually =/= "only miss on a 1 and ignore any (flat) miss chances for concealment (which are separate from attack rolls)."
If you think it's "inconsequential," then you'd be OK with your GM giving all the rogues (ninjas, assassins, etc.) your party faces potions of invisibility (300 gp) and potions of true strike (50 gp), right? 350 gp, guaranteed Sneak Attack damage (except when rolling a 1 or if the victim just happens to have see invisibility or true seeing up at the right time). It's about the same market price as a masterwork weapon and the PCs aren't likely to gain them as treasure, since they'll be consumed.
Not really... uncanny dodge, concealment, poor lighting... I'm sure there are things that can negate getting sneak attack for the invisible rogue. And spending money on a potion to get the effects of a flanking buddy just tell me that he's not necessarily using the potion to greatest effect.
I was also under the impression the invisibility (1 min per level, stops after an attack action) is not greater invisibility (1 round per level, keeps going, 4th level spell). As a one shot item, it would be very expensive to keep using consumables of this sort.
Does everyone have Uncanny Dodge or permanent see invisibility/true seeing? No.
Read the description of true strike: "Additionally, you are not affected by the miss chance that applies to attackers trying to strike a concealed target." Concealment, what concealment? See also Shadow Strike.
Who said it was to set up flanking? An attack from an invisible foe is automatically a Sneak Attack (unless the PC has some means of defense), even a ranged attack within 30 ft.
A group of six level (APL - 4) rogues, concentrating on one PC (say, the cleric or wizard) with their initial attacks from invisibility the round after drinking a potion of true strike, can probably kill that PC before the party can even react; then, they can start flanking the survivors after becoming visible (if the initial victim is still alive, one more set of flanking attacks will likely be enough to kill that PC). Note this is supposedly a CR = APL encounter that has a good chance (almost guaranteed) of killing at least one PC (73.5% chance of 18d6 from six 3rd level rogues using short bows for the initial attacks against a 7th level PC, for example).
As to the cost, it's actually more effective than the BBEG giving masterwork weapons to their minions.
[EDIT: Forgot to reduce the CR for NPCs to level - 1]
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Yeah, why should 6 rogues be able to one-shot a squishy character? It's not like there are other classes can do the same against the tank alone with a single spell cast, right? Right???
Dragonchess Player: So what's the difference between those invisible/true strike rogues and the same group hidden and all attacking the wizard ranged? Instead of auto hits you get almost auto hits; all for 350gp per attack. Seems overpriced for little actual benefit...
A dogpile on just one PC is most times ugly, with or without the extra 350gp tossed in.
Yeah, why should 6 rogues be able to one-shot a squishy character? It's not like there are other classes can do the same against the tank alone with a single spell cast, right? Right???
Don't forget the martials would have to spend the 2100gp tax to do THAT well! That's not nearly enough! ;)
How many groups of six 3rd level NPCs are almost guaranteed to take out a 7th level PC cavalier, cleric, druid, fighter, oracle, paladin, etc. (anyone without Uncanny Dodge) in the first round, without some extreme "the player is being stupid" situation (i.e., assuming normal, non-costly long-term buffs like resist energy/energy resistance, level-appropriate protective gear, etc.)? For about the same cost as giving each NPC a masterwork weapon. Not "have a chance," almost guaranteed. About the closest is six sorcerers/wizards using a barrage of magic missiles for 12d4+12 force damage (could be increased by bloodline, school, etc.).
Note that regular Perception checks (or Combat Reflexes, etc. for acting in the surprise round) do not allow the PC to avoid the Sneak Attacks of invisible rogues like a normal ambush/surprise situation.
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How many groups of six 3rd level NPCs are almost guaranteed to take out a 7th level PC cavalier, cleric, druid, fighter, oracle, paladin, etc. (anyone without Uncanny Dodge) in the first round, without some extreme "the player is being stupid" situation (i.e., assuming normal, non-costly long-term buffs like resist energy/energy resistance)? For about the same cost as giving each NPC a masterwork weapon.
Note that regular Perception checks (or Combat Reflexes, etc. for acting in the surprise round) do not allow the PC to avoid the Sneak Attacks of invisible rogues like a normal ambush/surprise situation.
6 two handed barbarians 3rd with power attack (A.K.A. the most common barbarian ever) can matematically one round anything with 7 HD a d10 and less than a +2 con modifier. Free of charge.
Going by the Infusion FAQ, I'm reasonably sure that "no personal-target potions" are an intentional limitation and that personal range infusions was an oversight:
. . . .Alchemist and infusions: Can I use the infusion discovery to create an infused extract of a personal-range formula (such as true strike), which someone else can drink?
Yes, you can. The design team may decide to close this loophole in the next printing of the Advanced Player's Guide.I'm going to disagree. That sounds more like a personal interpretation.
Just because the one person responding views it unfavorably, they refer to it as a loophole, even though it seems an example of a specific class ability trumping a general general rule, which is not uncommon.
I hope the design team as a whole sees it for what it is. An interesting and relatively balanced feature.
A fighter with mirror image on is too powerful. They use armour, casters use magic.Martials use magic swords, magic shields, magic armor... sometimes they invest in UMD to use scrolls or wands in case it hits the fan and they can help in other ways, which could easily spill over into combat. A martial with mirror image still gets hit with area of effects spells, and past a certain point, armor class doesn't do the job anymore as your enemies have reach and much higher strength scores. Martials need magic, at least in some form, in this game.
Fighters have high strength and full bab - they don't need true strike, casters might depending on build.I'll keep that in mind when a melee spec'ed martial has to pick up a bow to take on flying enemies with a good armor class, or a fighter with no buffs lowers his chance to hit by %5, 10%, 15%, or 20% to power attack. And in this edition, you can't vary the amount.
And depending on the build, casters need to hit buffs less, as...
We're talking low level play here, anything is possible at high levels with UMD - why do you think the DC's are so high?
Maybe a pot of fly will prevent all the other stuff you mentioned... The personal spells are carefully picked for balance - on the whole compared to 3.x Paizo did a good job.
6 two handed barbarians with power attack (A.K.A. the most common barbarian ever) can matematically one round anything with a d10 and less than a +2 con modifierHow many groups of six 3rd level NPCs are almost guaranteed to take out a 7th level PC cavalier, cleric, druid, fighter, oracle, paladin, etc. (anyone without Uncanny Dodge) in the first round, without some extreme "the player is being stupid" situation (i.e., assuming normal, non-costly long-term buffs like resist energy/energy resistance)? For about the same cost as giving each NPC a masterwork weapon.
Note that regular Perception checks (or Combat Reflexes, etc. for acting in the surprise round) do not allow the PC to avoid the Sneak Attacks of invisible rogues like a normal ambush/surprise situation.
Math.
Note the edit: Not "have a chance," almost guaranteed. If it's less than a 73.5% chance of 18d6 damage (63 average, more with composite short bows), then it's not almost guaranteed.
Also note: without "the player is being stupid." Standing in the open and allowing six visible opponents to surround the PC is "being stupid."
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Sure thing! I figured I'd use Magic Missile, since we all know that's the best 1st level spell in the game:
Six level 3 wizards casting Magic Missile in the surprise round. Each wizard has Allied Spellcaster, Spell Focus: evocation, and Varisian Tattoos, bumping their CL to 5.
CL 5 MM: 3d4+3 * 6
18d4 + 18 = 45 + 18 = an average of 63 damage per round.
In comparison, 6 level 3 rogues would do:
6d8 damage (light crossbow) + 12d6 damage (sneak attack) = 27 + 42 = an average of 69 damage.
The wizards are slightly behind in DPR, but since they don't care about AC and unlike the rogue they can do the exact same thing the next round I think that's a fair trade-off. If the damage is "really" important you can easily replace Wizard with orc bloodline sorcerer for an additional (3*6) 18 damage, for a total of 81. Throw on some traits and a better feat selection (SF: Evocation is a bit of a waste) and I wouldn't be surprised if we could break triple digits.
Note that unlike your True Strike scenario, the wizards don't really care about petty things like "uncanny dodge", attack rolls or WBL. Barring a defensive spell with a duration measured in minutes (Shield), MM just hits. Unlike the rogue they can also self-cast Invisibility which more or less guarantees the surprise round, or levitate and Protection from Arrows to completely screw over any party that's not appropriately prepared to handle flyers.
If personal range spells should be available in potion form is a valid question. The horror scenario you're describing isn't a very good argument though - if a GM wants to screw over his party with six invisible rogues or six wizards or whatever, he has zero problem doing just that. He really doesn't need personal-range potions.
Yes, a barrage of magic missiles from a very specific caster "build" is about the only other option. Of course, magic missile is almost completely ineffective against shield (if the victim can/has a chance to cast it) or if the victim happens to have a brooch of shielding or ring of force fangs.
The potion of invisibility and potion of true strike can be given out to any group of rogues for about the same "NPC wealth cost" as the ubiquitous masterwork weapon. If it's that inexpensive, then it will be that common.
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No... It is not the only option - it is the option you mentioned in your original post. Magic Missile is generally not a very good blasting spell, so I took it as a bit of a challenge. There are numerous ways to do this very easily.
And for what it's worth, the horror scenario you're using can be done right now without ever touching on a gray area in the rules set: 6 lvl 3 vivisectionist alchemists chug a True Strike extract each and shoot crossbows. No specific build apart from using an archetype found in the core series (Ultimate Magic), and they'll do exactly the same damage as the rogue party, but didn't spend a dime on True Strike potions.
In fact they'll probably do a bit more since they have more pre-fight buff options.
No... It is not the only option - it is the option you mentioned in your original post. Magic Missile is generally not a very good blasting spell, so I took it as a bit of a challenge. There are numerous ways to do this very easily.
Elemental damage vs. resist energy/energy resistance...
And for what it's worth, the horror scenario you're using can be done right now without ever touching on a gray area in the rules set: 6 lvl 3 vivisectionist alchemists chug a True Strike extract each and shoot crossbows. They'll do exactly the same damage as the rogue party, but didn't spend a dime on True Strike potions.
Sure, but alchemists are effectively casters using their own "spells." Allowing every rogue in the world to match that (in one fight, which is all most NPCs last for) at about the same cost as masterwork weapon throws off game balance drastically. The "Thieves' Guild" would become a major power broker with it's ability to inexpensively eliminate selected individuals with little to no chance of failure using low-level minions (assassins, who needs them?).
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If those rogues had time to drink 2 potions before the first round of combat, then it's not really fair to call it a 1-round kill; it's a 1-round kill with 2 rounds of pre-buffing.
I don't think I really need to start cooking up the number of awful things other classes can do with 2 rounds of pre-buffing. Buffed vs. non-buffed is just unfair.
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I'm pretty sure the no personal potions thing is not an oversight. I do think it's a bit dated - 3.0 design philosophy that's been maintained. Back then there was a much bigger gulf between spellcasting classes and martial classes. All the hybrid stuff like magi and bloodragers came much later.
By now, we have:
I'm sure there's some more workarounds that I haven't thought of yet.
No... It is not the only option - it is the option you mentioned in your original post. Magic Missile is generally not a very good blasting spell, so I took it as a bit of a challenge. There are numerous ways to do this very easily.Elemental damage vs. energy resistance/resist elements...
Do you mean Resist Energy or Endure Elements? I can't find Energy Resistance or Resist Elements anywhere, I guess it might be 3rd party?
And for what it's worth, the horror scenario you're using can be done right now without ever touching on a gray area in the rules set: 6 lvl 3 vivisectionist alchemists chug a True Strike extract each and shoot crossbows. They'll do exactly the same damage as the rogue party, but didn't spend a dime on True Strike potions.Sure, but alchemists are effectively casters using their own "spells." Allowing every rogue in the world to match that (in one fight, which is all most NPCs last for) at about the same cost as masterwork weapon throws off game balance drastically.
How dare those pesky rogues try to compete with vivisectionist alchemists in the assassinations olympics!
On a related note I am going to houserule Invisibility to personal-range only and ban invisibility sphere. I'm tired of these pesky rogues stealing caster toys and using them to make sneak attacks.
Yes, a barrage of magic missiles from a very specific caster "build" is about the only other option. Of course, magic missile is almost completely ineffective against shield (if the victim can/has a chance to cast it) or if the victim happens to have a brooch of shielding or ring of force fangs.
The potion of invisibility and potion of true strike can be given out to any group of rogues for about the same "NPC wealth cost" as the ubiquitous masterwork weapon. If it's that inexpensive, then it will be that common.
If it is really that common, don't you think experienced PCs and NPCs will plan for such occurrences?
Unless everyone in your party has Intelligence 7 or less, they'll know to plan for Invisible mooks who can apparently 'auto-hit,' after 3 rounds or so of preparation (2 rounds alone for potions, 1 more round to get into position and possibly attack). If that is the case, that party won't be a party for very long...
It's also hardly a smart tactic, since once you get that single attack with your extra measly D6s, which can be easily countered with the right feats and items, what else are you going to do? You don't get D6s on your attacks anymore, and you got 3 other fully-powered PCs ready to breathe down your neck and turn you into a blood splot.
To be honest, the Masterwork weapon is a much better investment, because that weapon, by the time you're able to use a "ZOMGWTFBBQOP" tactic that involves those 2 potions, becomes a longer lasting, better impact weapon that you can easily build upon versus 2 potions that are designed to get you out of tight spots.
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As for those who referenced the Alchemist Infusion, is that rule for Personal Potions still in effect, or did they change them already? If not, then it actually reinforces that the Devs follow the intent of "Personal Spell Potions = No," and it gives the Alchemist quite a bit of unsung power. (It also answers my question a lot better with that in mind...)
As for those who referenced the Alchemist Infusion, is that rule for Personal Potions still in effect, or did they change them already? If not, then it actually reinforces that the Devs follow the intent of "Personal Spell Potions = No," and it gives the Alchemist quite a bit of unsung power. (It also answers...
As far as I know personal-range infusions are still legal - the FAQ I quoted earlier hasn't been changed, at least.
Do you mean Resist Energy or Endure Elements? I can't find Energy Resistance or Resist Elements anywhere, I guess it might be 3rd party?No... It is not the only option - it is the option you mentioned in your original post. Magic Missile is generally not a very good blasting spell, so I took it as a bit of a challenge. There are numerous ways to do this very easily.Elemental damage vs. energy resistance/resist elements...
Gah, typing too fast. Energy resistance (ability), resist energy (spell), or protection from energy (spell).
6 two handed barbarians with power attack (A.K.A. the most common barbarian ever) can matematically one round anything with a d10 and less than a +2 con modifierHow many groups of six 3rd level NPCs are almost guaranteed to take out a 7th level PC cavalier, cleric, druid, fighter, oracle, paladin, etc. (anyone without Uncanny Dodge) in the first round, without some extreme "the player is being stupid" situation (i.e., assuming normal, non-costly long-term buffs like resist energy/energy resistance)? For about the same cost as giving each NPC a masterwork weapon.
Note that regular Perception checks (or Combat Reflexes, etc. for acting in the surprise round) do not allow the PC to avoid the Sneak Attacks of invisible rogues like a normal ambush/surprise situation.
Math.
Note the edit: Not "have a chance," almost guaranteed. If it's less than a 73.5% chance of 18d6 damage (63 average, more with composite short bows), then it's not almost guaranteed.
Also note: without "the player is being stupid." Standing in the open and allowing six opponents to surround the PC is "being stupid."
A barbarian with +4 str, 2d6 weapon +1, and power attack deals 2d6+10. Single average is 17. If only 4 of 6 hit, that' s average 68. If the 7th level character didn't roll at least 8 hp per hd (good luck with that) with a +2 con is easily toast. And most of that damage doesn't care about the dice roll.
Against what AC and flat footed AC are you measuring your chances?
If those rogues had time to drink 2 potions before the first round of combat, then it's not really fair to call it a 1-round kill; it's a 1-round kill with 2 rounds of pre-buffing. Buffed vs. non-buffed is just unfair.
Oh, yeah... No one uses 1 min/level spells when they know a group of enemies is coming or before initiating combat. NPCs are supposed to sit around waiting for the PCs and not prepare ahead of time...
Only PCs are allowed to pre-buff. [/sarcasm]
The average party has 4-6 members, we'll assume 4 since in this case that favors the party. Each character would need 5 casts of Resist Energy to cover all five elements (electricity, cold, fire, acid, sonic), so that's 20 2nd level spell slots dedicated to Resist Energy. A 7th level wizard has 3 2nd level spell slots, +1 for Intelligence and +1 for Specialization. If all 4 party members are full progression casters I guess they might have that many spells available?
It has a duration of 70 minutes, so I could of course time my attack to hit in the other 23 hours since I appear to have carte blanche to ambush them at my convenience.
Alternately they use communal Resist Energy, in which case I laugh at them for burning 5 level 3 spell slots every 20 minutes and delay until they run out of buffs.
I have to say, I find this party rather strange. They're toting protection spells to every energy form in the book and as well as Brooches of Shielding, yet they've never encountered any form of invisibility? If I had the spare spell slots I'd much rather take See Invisibility than Resist Energy (Sonic), unless I knew I was going up against creatures dealing sonic damage.
Oh, alternate lineup for party demolition, again RAW-legal:
6 level 3 half-elf ninjas with rapid shot and Invisibility trick.
Round 1: Turn invisible as a swift action. Standard action to cast True Strike from scrolls (Arcane Training)
Round 2: Rapid Shot full attack, first attack will hit for 18d6 damage, then swift action to re-cast invisibility, then another barrage for another 18d6 damage. The second volley will not benefit from True Strike, but is still hitting flat-footed AC - which tend to be less than amazing on a lvl 7 caster.
Will it Blend?: 18d6 damage (guaranteed) + 18d6 damage (depending on attack rolls). Despite firing at a flat-footed target I'll be pessimistic and assume a 50% hit ratio, so the total is 27d6 damage for an average of 94,5. Again, without straying into any gray areas.
Again: I agree that the scenario you describe is rough on the PCs, but it's not because of the True Strike potion - it's because you have a large group of enemies, with the advantage of surprise, focus fire down a single target using Sneak Attack. A 3rd level rogue will most likely not have that hard a time hitting a flat-footed lvl 7 wizard anyway.
6 two handed barbarians with power attack (A.K.A. the most common barbarian ever) can matematically one round anything with a d10 and less than a +2 con modifierHow many groups of six 3rd level NPCs are almost guaranteed to take out a 7th level PC cavalier, cleric, druid, fighter, oracle, paladin, etc. (anyone without Uncanny Dodge) in the first round, without some extreme "the player is being stupid" situation (i.e., assuming normal, non-costly long-term buffs like resist energy/energy resistance)? For about the same cost as giving each NPC a masterwork weapon.
Note that regular Perception checks (or Combat Reflexes, etc. for acting in the surprise round) do not allow the PC to avoid the Sneak Attacks of invisible rogues like a normal ambush/surprise situation.
Math.
Note the edit: Not "have a chance," almost guaranteed. If it's less than a 73.5% chance of 18d6 damage (63 average, more with composite short bows), then it's not almost guaranteed.
Also note: without "the player is being stupid." Standing in the open and allowing six opponents to surround the PC is "being stupid."
A barbarian with +4 str, 2d6 weapon +1, and power attack deals 2d6+10. Single average is 17. If only 4 of 6 hit, that' s average 68. If the 7th level character didn't roll at least 8 hp per hd (good luck with that) with a +2 con is easily toast. And most of that damage doesn't care about the dice roll.
Against what AC and flat footed AC are you measuring your chances?
A 7th level PC, at 23,500 gp WBL, can easily have an AC of 22-27 with only around 25% of that (even higher AC if more is invested). The raging, Power Attacking 3rd level barbarians have an attack bonus of maybe +9 or +10 (+3 BAB +4 Str +1 Weapon Focus +1 enhancement -1 Power Attack = +8). How are they landing 66% of their hits?
You also didn't address "the player is being stupid" by standing in the open and allowing six opponents to surround the PC.
A 7th level PC, at 23,500 gp WBL, can easily have an AC of 22-27 with only around 25% of that (even higher AC if more is invested). The raging, Power Attacking 3rd level barbarians have an attack bonus of maybe +9 or +10 (+3 BAB +4 Str +1 Weapon Focus +1 enhancement -1 Power Attack = +8). How are they landing 66% of their hits?
You also didn't address "the player is being stupid" by standing in the open and allowing six opponents to surround the PC.
Based on the same premises how are all six rogues hitting?
I don' really know how to respond to that… in my opinion, if a group of invisible people surrounds me i'm being stupid for not maxing perception and packing an invisibility purge magic item ready to use.
The average party has 4-6 members, we'll assume 4 since in this case that favors the party. Each character would need 5 casts of Resist Energy to cover all five elements (electricity, cold, fire, acid, sonic), so that's 20 2nd level spell slots dedicated to Resist Energy. A 7th level wizard has 3 2nd level spell slots, +1 for Intelligence and +1 for Specialization. If all 4 party members are full progression casters I guess they might have that many spells available?
Scrolls and wands for multiple long-term buffs, in addition to pearls of power (2nd level is only 4,000 gp). Brooches of shielding are cheap protection at 1,500 gp against what is otherwise unavoidable damage for most characters (at least until you can afford an amulet of natural armor +2).
See invisibility is more niche than resist energy in most instances. There are many more foes that do elemental damage than those that can turn invisible. Granted, if the world has hordes of low-level rogues carrying around potions of invisibility and potions of true strike, then that changes; it's these significant alterations to the game world that become necessary if you change the rules to allow personal range spells in potions.
Granted, if the NPCs are allowed complete freedom to time their attack (assuming they know when the PCs aren't buffed), then the NPCs are going to be at a huge advantage no matter what. The invisibility + true strike can be put into effect at any time (assuming that the potions are prepared and distributed).
A 7th level PC, at 23,500 gp WBL, can easily have an AC of 22-27 with only around 25% of that (even higher AC if more is invested). The raging, Power Attacking 3rd level barbarians have an attack bonus of maybe +9 or +10 (+3 BAB +4 Str +1 Weapon Focus +1 enhancement -1 Power Attack = +8). How are they landing 66% of their hits?
You also didn't address "the player is being stupid" by standing in the open and allowing six opponents to surround the PC.
Based on the same premises how are all six rogues hitting?
I don' really know how to respond to that… in my opinion, if a group of invisible people surrounds me i'm being stupid for not maxing perception and packing an invisibility purge magic item ready to use.
Assuming that personal range potions are possible, true strike, while still invisible (until they attack, at least), from 30 ft away. As stated in my earlier posts.
Unless the PC or party in question has just the right abilities (Uncanny Dodge) or spells active (see invisibility), it's pretty much a one round auto-kill of one PC that any group of low level rogues can pull off for minimal investment (350 gp each, around the cost of a masterwork weapon).
A wand of Communal Resist Energy would cost 11 000 GP (50% of a level 7 character's WBL) and would last them sixteen hours.
Resist Energy (Fire) I might buy as more useful than See Invisibility, but Resist Energy (Sonic)? I'm sorry, but there is no way I'm buying that this theoretical party keeps resist energy (all) up whenever they go anywhere dangerous but don't bother with a single cast of See Invisibility.
In other news, you didn't comment on my ninja lineup?
Edit: Ooh, I just thought of a good one!
6 level 3 rogues. Minor Magic (Acid Splash), Major Magic (True Strike). They take Extra Rogue Talent (first time I ever used that feat! Yay!) to pick up Major Magic a level early, otherwise they can take it at level 4 as normal.
Surprise Round: Cast True Strike using their rogue talent, then cast Acid Splash (again with the rogue talent) with sneak attack. It's a ranged touch attack with the normal attack bonuses and a +20 rider, hitting for 1d3+2d6 damage apiece.
An average of 54 damage isn't too shabby considering it's touch attacks, alternately we give them heavy crossbows for 42+33 = an average of 75 damage.
This assumes no unusual builds, archetypes, gear or other shenanigans. Just using the rogue class features.
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A 7th level PC, at 23,500 gp WBL, can easily have an AC of 22-27 with only around 25% of that (even higher AC if more is invested). The raging, Power Attacking 3rd level barbarians have an attack bonus of maybe +9 or +10 (+3 BAB +4 Str +1 Weapon Focus +1 enhancement -1 Power Attack = +8). How are they landing 66% of their hits?
You also didn't address "the player is being stupid" by standing in the open and allowing six opponents to surround the PC.
Based on the same premises how are all six rogues hitting?
I don' really know how to respond to that… in my opinion, if a group of invisible people surrounds me i'm being stupid for not maxing perception and packing an invisibility purge magic item ready to use.
Assuming that personal range potions are possible, true strike, while still invisible (until they attack, at least), from 30 ft away. As stated in my earlier posts.
Unless the PC or party in question has just the right abilities (Uncanny Dodge) or spells active (see invisibility), it's pretty much a one round auto-kill of one PC that any group of low level rogues can pull off for minimal investment (350 gp each, around the cost of a masterwork weapon).
You could get true strike from a wand for every character you will ever have. It's even cheaper than a potion because you can reuse the item 50 times.
A wand of Communal Resist Energy would cost 11 000 GP (50% of a level 7 character's WBL) and would last them sixteen hours.
Resist Energy (Fire) I might buy as more useful than See Invisibility, but Resist Energy (Sonic)? I'm sorry, but there is no way I'm buying that this theoretical party keeps resist energy (all) up whenever they go anywhere dangerous but don't bother with a single cast of See Invisibility.
Who says they have it up all the time? There are ways to gain constant energy resistance (race, archetype, magic items; the magic items tend to be expensive, though), and I'm assuming the PCs are in "adventuring mode," which means a selection of long-term buffs based on the known opposition (I'm also assuming the players actually have the PCs do some research and prepare, instead of "kick down the door and see what's there"). Generally, if they know they're going up against opponents that favor one element for damage, then I'm assuming they'll buff against that element.
Does "a group of low-level rogues" cause most parties to prepare against invisibility? Maybe, but only if they are known to use invisibility frequently. Normal Stealth isn't detected by see invisibility, after all; it's more likely that the party will prioritize spells that produce shadow-less light (so that the rogues can't use Stealth to hide near the party) or other measures.
I'm not assuming the rogues attack a lone PC getting out of the bath, for example.
In other news, you didn't comment on my ninja lineup?
If they are casting from a scroll (which is a neat trick while invisible; how are they reading a scroll that's invisible while in their possession?), then the party can hear them speaking the spell, giving them a chance to cast glitterdust in the area the speaking is coming from; once visible, no Sneak Attack.
You could get true strike from a wand for every character you will ever have. It's even cheaper than a potion because you can reuse the item 50 times.A 7th level PC, at 23,500 gp WBL, can easily have an AC of 22-27 with only around 25% of that (even higher AC if more is invested). The raging, Power Attacking 3rd level barbarians have an attack bonus of maybe +9 or +10 (+3 BAB +4 Str +1 Weapon Focus +1 enhancement -1 Power Attack = +8). How are they landing 66% of their hits?
You also didn't address "the player is being stupid" by standing in the open and allowing six opponents to surround the PC.
Based on the same premises how are all six rogues hitting?
I don' really know how to respond to that… in my opinion, if a group of invisible people surrounds me i'm being stupid for not maxing perception and packing an invisibility purge magic item ready to use.
Assuming that personal range potions are possible, true strike, while still invisible (until they attack, at least), from 30 ft away. As stated in my earlier posts.
Unless the PC or party in question has just the right abilities (Uncanny Dodge) or spells active (see invisibility), it's pretty much a one round auto-kill of one PC that any group of low level rogues can pull off for minimal investment (350 gp each, around the cost of a masterwork weapon).
Use Magic Device check for a 3rd level rogue is? Compared to silent, automatic effect of a potion...
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Who says they have it up all the time? There are ways to gain constant energy resistance (race, archetype, magic items; the magic items tend to be expensive, though), and I'm assuming the PCs are in "adventuring mode," which means a selection of long-term buffs based on the known opposition (I'm also assuming the players actually have the PCs do some research and prepare, instead of "kick down the door and see what's there"). Generally, if they know they're going up against opponents that favor one element for damage, then I'm assuming they'll buff against that element.
Does "a group of low-level rogues" cause most parties to prepare against invisibility? Maybe, but only if they are known to use invisibility frequently. Normal Stealth isn't detected by see invisibility, after all; it's more likely that the party will prioritize spells that produce shadow-less light (so that the rogues can't use Stealth to hide near the party) or other measures.
I find it odd that the party knows "we're up against casters who rely on Acid spells" but not "we're up against creatures who strike from invisibility", but whatever you say.
I've never seen it ruled that you can't see yourself while invisible, but I could very well be in the wrong here. If we follow your ruling this does raise some rather large problems though - how do wizards know what component they're taking out of their spell component pouch, for instance.
Truth be told I feel like this argument has been put to rest - as I explained above, level 3 rogues can get True Strike from their own class mechanics, they don't need TS potions. While I still think it's a very poorly designed encounter, it's easily built using the CRB and the APG.
For everyone coming up with corner cases that can do the same thing:
If this is something that every group of rogues can do, with minimal investment (350 gp), why should they bother with specific rogue talents, feats, other classes, archetypes, etc.? They can still have their "regular" abilities, plus the invisibility + true strike trick. Money is easily replaced; character abilities are much harder to alter.
While there aren't the same limitations, from what my brief review of the guidelines can tell, of "personal" to wondrous items, the few that come to mind right away as similar in cost to potions and use are the elemental gem and dust of disappearance. Both of these, however, are based on spells that are not "personal"....anyone have any examples of already in use items that are wondrous and based on/use spells in their crafting that are "personal" only?
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Truth be told I feel like this argument has been put to rest - as I explained above, level 3 rogues can get True Strike from their own class mechanics, they don't need TS potions. While I still think it's a very poorly designed encounter, it's easily built using the CRB and the APG.
And if the rogues with potions all took Bleeding Attack as their 2nd level rogue talent? Your rogues spent their 2nd level rogue talent and their 3rd level feat to do what the potion rogues can do for 50 gp (assuming both groups have potions of invisibility).
Again, the point is not that there aren't ways to get similar functionality, it's that allowing potions of true strike drastically alters game balance by allowing every single rogue in the world to gain that functionality with minimal investment in money. They don't have to be "built" for it with specific class, archetype, class feature, or feat choices; all they need is an amount of money equivalent to a masterwork weapon to be brutally effective against most opponents, without sacrificing anything else.
Yep, what Dragonchess Player is saying. It's partially the one-offs. But it's mostly what would happen if it's an assumed part of every character.
Does "a group of low-level rogues" cause most parties to prepare against invisibility? Maybe, but only if they are known to use invisibility frequently. Normal Stealth isn't detected by see invisibility, after all; it's more likely that the party will prioritize spells that produce shadow-less light (so that the rogues can't use Stealth to hide near the party) or other measures.I find it odd that the party knows "we're up against casters who rely on Acid spells" but not "we're up against creatures who strike from invisibility", but whatever you say.
Lets see, you have a group of casters all with the same bloodline/school and specialized for a specific element? Damn straight that that will be something that can be researched. Note I did mention that if it's a common tactic for a group of rogues to use invisibility, then that can also be researched.
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Let's go back and review some of your posts, shall we?
If you think it's "inconsequential," then you'd be OK with your GM giving all the rogues (ninjas, assassins, etc.) your party faces potions of invisibility (300 gp) and potions of true strike (50 gp), right? 350 gp, guaranteed Sneak Attack damage (except when rolling a 1 or if the victim just happens to have see invisibility or true seeing up at the right time). It's about the same market price as a masterwork weapon and the PCs aren't likely to gain them as treasure, since they'll be consumed.
Well, Paizo were OK with giving rogues True Strike as an SLA. So far I haven't seen it cause any problems. If anything, the general opinion of the Paizo forum is that rogues are on the low end of the power spectrum. Again, True Strike SLAs mean they have a chance to pull off the same trick as vivisectionist alchemists. It's hardly gamebreaking.
Allowing every rogue in the world to match that (in one fight, which is all most NPCs last for) at about the same cost as masterwork weapon throws off game balance drastically. The "Thieves' Guild" would become a major power broker with it's ability to inexpensively eliminate selected individuals with little to no chance of failure using low-level minions (assassins, who needs them?).
Turns out your "Thieves' Guild" with their crack trained team of level 3 assassins really is a major power broker. Who knew?
The potion of invisibility and potion of true strike can be given out to any group of rogues for about the same "NPC wealth cost" as the ubiquitous masterwork weapon. If it's that inexpensive, then it will be that common.
Well, true strike is already an option and yet I rarely see rogue players go for it. A typical rogue will also have an excellent chance to UMD it. I really think you're getting a bit too caught up in "the scenario" and so overestimate the power of the spell.
How many groups of six 3rd level NPCs are almost guaranteed to take out a 7th level PC cavalier, cleric, druid, fighter, oracle, paladin, etc. (anyone without Uncanny Dodge) in the first round, without some extreme "the player is being stupid" situation (i.e., assuming normal, non-costly long-term buffs like resist energy/energy resistance, level-appropriate protective gear, etc.)? For about the same cost as giving each NPC a masterwork weapon. Not "have a chance," almost guaranteed. About the closest is six sorcerers/wizards using a barrage of magic missiles for 12d4+12 force damage (could be increased by bloodline, school, etc.).
Note that regular Perception checks (or Combat Reflexes, etc. for acting in the surprise round) do not allow the PC to avoid the Sneak Attacks of invisible rogues like a normal ambush/surprise situation.
Again, level 3 rogues can do the exact same thing without relying on TS potions. With Touch Attacks from Acid Splash they also have an excellent chance of hitting the guy with Uncanny Dodge.
Clearly you're unhappy with the potential of sneak attacking rogues using True Strike. That's fine, you have every right to that opinion. Nevertheless, rogues are perfectly able to pick up True Strike at the very low cost of two rogue talents. Giving rogues access to True Strike potions wouldn't dramatically upset the power balance of rogues, they already have a perfectly valid way of gaining the spell.
For what it's worth I don't necessarily think that Personal Range spells should be available in potion form, but it's definitely not True Strike that has me concerned. That said, I really think you picked a poor place to stand your ground on the issue.
I also find it quite hilarious how far we've strayed from the original premise. Goal Post Mover indeed. :)
Lets see, you have a group of casters all with the same bloodline/school and specialized for a specific element? Damn straight that that will be something that can be researched. Note I did mention that if it's a common tactic for a group of rogues to use invisibility, then that can also be researched.
This is a very different scenario from what you presented (blasting countered by Energy Resistance) earlier. For a well-made blaster it's trivially easy to change elemental damage on the fly. If you plan to rely on Energy Resistance you really want to cover all the bases, or at least the four most common.
While there aren't the same limitations, from what my brief review of the guidelines can tell, of "personal" to wondrous items, the few that come to mind right away as similar in cost to potions and use are the elemental gem and dust of disappearance. Both of these, however, are based on spells that are not "personal"....anyone have any examples of already in use items that are wondrous and based on/use spells in their crafting that are "personal" only?
Do you mean wondrous consumables like the Dust of Disappearance, charged items like wands or items that simply cast spells that are range: Personal?
You probably won't find many of the first type since Wondrous Items generally tries to avoid single-use consumables (more of a Brew Potion/Scribe Scroll thing). There are no limitations on wands that have range: personal, so that's a wide open playing field.
For items that cast spells with range: personal there are quite a few examples - Cloak of the Hedge Wizard, for instance.
do you really want the low level 2-h fighter baddie to down a Potion of Shield, getting his huge Armor AC & a Shield bonus without actually using a Shield?You mean like with an animated sheild?
Which, if one wants equal protection to that of a Shield potion, will cost 16000gp. And lasts only 4 rounds, but it is only a move action to activate after all. The comparison doesn't look too bad for the 50 gp potion.
I think that is part of why they are inaccessible trough potions. Personal spells are (often) more powerful then others - and yes, you can get access to them trough various ways - but those ways all demand some investment. You either sink a few skills into it and UMD a scroll or a wand, spend talents/feats on it or befriend an alchemist. Potions are just too cheap, and gives access too early.
At level 2/3, very few monsters will challenge the warrior in full plate and shield (AC 23), at level 6+ the opposition can start to deal with it, if it becomes too much of a hassle (Dispel Magic, other ways off attacking then vs AC)
. . .
I think that is part of why they are inaccessible trough potions. Personal spells are (often) more powerful then others - and yes, you can get access to them trough various ways - but those ways all demand some investment. You either sink a few skills into it and UMD a scroll or a wand, spend talents/feats on it or befriend an alchemist. Potions are just too cheap, and gives access too early.
. . . .
What?
Scrolls are cheaper than potions. First level scrolls are 25 gp. Wands are cheaper than potions. Wands are 15 gp per charge for a first level wand. Wizards have scribe scroll at 1st level, so scrolls pop up sooner than potions.
Just saying...
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If you think it's "inconsequential," then you'd be OK with your GM giving all the rogues (ninjas, assassins, etc.) your party faces potions of invisibility (300 gp) and potions of true strike (50 gp), right?
Ninjas can pull it off without buying anything, as they get invisibility as a swift action by spending Ki and they can take the Major Magic Rogue Talent for True Strike (and as Minor Magic they can take some dumb touch attack like acid splash)
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Wait, I'm confused. Invisibility potions are already completely legal as invisibility isn't a personal spell.
So.... what is the issue exactly? True strike, which rogues can already get as an SLA anyway? Or the fact that vivisectionists can already do this trick just fine?
Huh?
Also: way to pick on the rogue. Sheesh, it has problems enough!
Wait, I'm confused. Invisibility potions are already completely legal as invisibility isn't a personal spell.
So.... what is the issue exactly? True strike, which rogues can already get as an SLA anyway? Or the fact that vivisectionists can already do this trick just fine?
Huh?
Also: way to pick on the rogue. Sheesh, it has problems enough!
People need something new to complain about when it comes to the Rogue because Rogue Talents are apparently stupid (even though they allow the Rogues to do such "broken tactics" quite freely), and ripping on potions with a range of Personal that are apparently super broken becomes a major issue. True Strike isn't broken, people are simply throwing impossible odds against a single, completely stupid enemy who doesn't prepare for anything, something which can be just as easily (and better) accomplished by throwing in, say, an Elder Wyrm Red Dragon.
The sad part is? These extra potions really aren't anything special. +4 Shield AC for 1 minute @ 50 GP, while chump change at most levels, generally only lasts 1 combat, and after you spend it time after time, you could've bought a Masterwork Weapon with 6 Shield purchases, or Masterwork Armor/Shield with 3 purchases. And they take Standard Actions to use, so for those abilities whose duration isn't so long (~1 round), it becomes a potential turn waster.
You try and pull it by the endgame and it gets dispelled without issue, or it becomes a non-issue altogether. Mid-game can deal with it, and early game can always fight fire with fire. You throw in those ~1 round spells, and it becomes so stupid that you may end up wasting your turn, the disparity increasing even moreso when A. you provoke by drinking the potion, B. become unable to full-attack, which lets you deal more damage anyway, and C. the benefit becoming nigh-wasteful.
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The Personal aspect of spells is a VERY big limitation on their power by reserving them for certain builds that will usually not be the optimized user for them.
This is why the cost to create custom magic items that replicate personal spells becomes quickly absurd (i.e., far too low). Just check Bracers of Armor ;-)
Putting them freely in potion circumvents that limitation and thus opens them to big abuse.
This is especially true at low levels when martials already far outstrip casters.