A great comparison is Guild Wars' policy on races.
I'd love to play skritt or hyleks. However, they (and several other races) aren't supposed to have great tech. This is in conflict with characters being able to be, say, engineers. In addition, skritt are supposed to behave with hiveminds and be quite dumb on their own.
That's the main reason they aren't currently available: Making such creatures playable would make their lore flat-out laughable. So as fun as a skritt PC might be, it just ain't gonna happen.
Goblin Squad Member
|
...god of good aligned werewolves...Hmm, I find it interesting that there is an Empyreal Lord (technically a demigod, by the way) who's worshipped by good-aligned werewolves when their wiki page, found by following the link at your url, lists them as only chaotic evil. However, by going to the SRD page and reading their description, we can see that
Of all the various types of lycanthropes, it is the werewolf that is the most widespread and the most feared. Stories of werewolves haunting lonely forest roads, prowling misty moors on the outskirts of rural societies, or dwelling in the shadows of the largest cities are widespread as well. In most societies, werewolves are feared and despised—and with good reason, as the typical werewolf personifies all that is savage and bestial in a lycanthrope. This isn't to say that good-aligned werewolves are unknown, but they're certainly a minority among their kind, and most werewolves are evil murderers who delight in the hunt and the succulent taste of raw meat.So it does seem like Good-aligned werewolves are possible, just a minority.
I actually did the same search, I found only the WereBear is good aligned, and surprisingly Lawful Good.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
A great comparison is Guild Wars' policy on races.
I'd love to play skritt or hyleks. However, they (and several other races) aren't supposed to have great tech. This is in conflict with characters being able to be, say, engineers. In addition, skritt are supposed to behave with hiveminds and be quite dumb on their own.
That's the main reason they aren't currently available: Making such creatures playable would make their lore flat-out laughable. So as fun as a skritt PC might be, it just ain't gonna happen.
I'm not sure if it is intentional or not, but the above is another brilliant example of themepark design of mmorpgs where you are told what the world is like.
I think for sandbox where you are telling the world how to be, there needs to be an altogether different approach to it's realization to go beyond the lore and further beyond the code and that reassesses the ideas of progression and monetization.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I think for sandbox where you are telling the world how to be, there needs to be an altogether different approach to it's realization to go beyond the lore and further beyond the code and that reassesses the ideas of progression and monetization.
I don't agree with this line of thinking being applied to this particular argument. Saying playing a sandbox allows us to define the lore means that we shouldn't use an established lore, as it's going to be thrashed by whatever product the player base outputs. If we're going to play in Golarion, we need to use the things that make the setting, otherwise we should not call it Golarion.
@Bludd, only Werebears are commonly good; the quote I brought up (from the Bestiary) suggests that good werewolves are possible, but a small minority among werewolves. Basically it's also like saying good goblins or orcs are possible; though there are exceptions, the general rule is that these races are about 99.9% evil, so having half (or more, by the current indicators) of the players of that race be Good means that we are not playing Golarion werewolves/goblins/orcs, we are playing something else entirely.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Saying playing a sandbox allows us to define the lore means that we shouldn't use an established lore
That is not what I said nor advocated. I did put the suggestion out there that thinking differently between themepark and sandbox is needed, not to be confused with "sandbox means I can do what I like". I think the lore, the code all have to be part of the solution of course.
I'm only commenting here, because I'd like to spend some time presenting a solution fully thought out. It's worth a shot, and might be creative which itself is it's own reward, truth be told!
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Perhaps, they could be balanced in the sense that should they be killed, they stay that way. Makes it a much more meaningful choice that way.
I think your idea has merit; yes, if these afflictions are supposed to be curses, there should be a curse involved. However, I think making some option become perma-death just means the option would never be used or considered by the great majority of players.
I'll offer a few 'curses' that might fit:
- On death, the afflicted player respawns to a totally random respawn point. This might be better for were-types, as it's a loss of control.
- The character is limited to a single respawn point which can *never* be changed. This is a random selection from the character's threaded respawns at the time of affliction. This might be appropriate for vampires who are linked to home ground.
- The were- or vampire character is dependent on having some "hunting territory" - a chosen base hex. Character power is inversely proportional to the number of afflicted characters that claim that hex. Character loses X% of hit points, cumulative, each day he doesn't visit his hunting ground. Hit points recover back to normal each day the afflicted visits his hunting territory. This would encourage afflicted not to share their powers as they potentially weaken themselves. It also allows GW to put an effective cap on the number in the game, by setting the number allowed per hex.
I actually did the same search, I found only the WereBear is good aligned, and surprisingly Lawful Good.
Yeah, that's what I assumed the god's text was mainly referring to.
I'm not sure if it is intentional or not, but the above is another brilliant example of themepark design of mmorpgs where you are told what the world is like.
That's not a themepark-only rule. We are going to be in a setting of Paizo's creation. If you want to create your own world and lore, play Minecraft with some friends. ;P
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I actually did the same search, I found only the WereBear is good aligned, and surprisingly Lawful Good.
Yeah, that's what I assumed the god's text was mainly referring to.
I'm not sure if it is intentional or not, but the above is another brilliant example of themepark design of mmorpgs where you are told what the world is like.That's not a themepark-only rule. We are going to be in a setting of Paizo's creation. If you want to create your own world and lore, play Minecraft with some friends. ;P
A given assumption.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, it kind of is. You're writing your story, not your setting. :P
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Yeah, that's what I assumed the god's text was mainly referring to.I actually did the same search, I found only the WereBear is good aligned, and surprisingly Lawful Good.
Lawful Good is not within the spectrum of a Chaotic Good god. It is in-fact, equally as far away as Chaotic Evil.
So if it is referring to werebears that makes no more sense than werewolves, which are the only type of lycanthrope that are specifically mentioned as following her.
Half-celestial werewolves. That's a ridiculously important distinction. It's like talking about dragons and not mentioning whether they're chromatic or metallic.
Anyways, I see your point. Personally, I think werebear followers are probably still more common—you can be Lawful and worship a chaotic deity.
Anyways, I hardly think pointing out how good werewolves are just as illogical as chaotic werebears is conducive to your point: If anything, we're just making a great case for wereboars.
Seriously, wereboars rule.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
...you can be Lawful and worship a chaotic deity.
Source it please. I've always been under the impression you may only be within one straight step of the alignment of your deity. A LG player worshiping a CG deity is just as far across the alignment spectrum as a NG player worshiping a NE deity. Neither make any sense at all.
And it's nothing at all like the difference between chromatic and metallic dragons. Dragons are restricted to a specific alignment based on their color. Half-celestial can be any alignment. A famous example working in the opposite direction: one of the most powerful lawful good empyreal lords is the result of the union of a TN demigoddess and a LE archdevil.
I really don't think there is enough solid information on werewolves to make any lore based argument on what proportion of werewolves are CE and what are CG / what criteria you must meet to be a CG or CN werewolf other than that it's known werewolves are generally CE and CG werewolves exist.
They could be anywhere from .00000000001% of werewolves to 49.999999999999999%.
I see information like that and see room for GW to exercise creativity. Not a black and white restriction.
The limitation is only for divine spellcasters who get their power from deities. Otherwise, you can worship whoever you please. It's purely a matter of flavor.
Also, exceptions to the dragon rule exist. They're just pretty dang rare. The alignment entry to the half-celestial is just as strict as that of the dragon.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Hmmmm. I think the problem is you are looking up all these creatures in the bestiary and I'm looking at how they operate as a player-race.
But on the subject of the bestiary werewolves have no specifically mentioned alignment restriction in the official Paizo bestiary. The example is just chaotic evil.
On the other hand there are races such as vampires that specifically state they are restricted to certain alignments.
AL: Any evil.
We can see that when you look at other characters that have examples of specific alignments in the bestiary it doesn't necessarily restrict them to that alignment when played by players.
So at this point, I would challenge you to find an official Paizo source (wiki's don't count, only Paizo publications) that specifically states either werewolf players or NPCs are restricted to the CE alignment.
Because I've searched extensively and have found no such thing.
I'm starting to think this is less what the lore shows the nature of werewolves to be and more about how you feel werewolves should be played.
The issue I have with this is this. You use the White Wolf MMO being dropped as a reason to have vamps and werewolves. The base problem would be that the setting of that MMO would be specifically designed to support, enable and encourage the Vampires and Werewolves. There isn't any content, nor anything in the setting that would do that within Pathfinder.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
A great comparison is Guild Wars' policy on races.
I'd love to play skritt or hyleks. However, they (and several other races) aren't supposed to have great tech. This is in conflict with characters being able to be, say, engineers. In addition, skritt are supposed to behave with hiveminds and be quite dumb on their own.
That's the main reason they aren't currently available: Making such creatures playable would make their lore flat-out laughable. So as fun as a skritt PC might be, it just ain't gonna happen.
I'd love to play a Tengu in GW2.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
The argument is that a system which encourages generally evil acts (killing other players) to grow in faction standing and thus unlock your more powerful abilities, is broken because it allows CG werewolves.
I don't see how? Provided you can't max your faction easily most werewolves would end up CE.
Most is being used as a codeword for all when good aligned werewolves clearly do exist.
I'm not too familiar with the whole vampire/werewolf thing. Is this what you're talking about?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cv568AzZ-i8
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Most werewolves are evil. The Bestiary spells that out very clearly.Please show me the source. Not an unofficial wiki but the official Paizo bestiary.
Alignment, Size, and Type: While a monster's size and type remain constant (unless changed by the application of templates or other unusual modifiers), alignment is far more fluid. The alignments listed for each monster in this book represent the norm for those monsters—they can vary as you require them to in order to serve the needs of your campaign. Only in the case of relatively unintelligent monsters (creatures with an Intelligence of 2 or lower are almost never anything other than neutral) and planar monsters (outsiders with alignments other than those listed are unusual and typically outcasts from their kind) is the listed alignment relatively unchangeable.
WEREWOLF CR 2
XP 600
Human natural werewolf fighter 2
CE Medium humanoid (human, shapechanger)
Init +5; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +4
Research is fun :)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
That's not strong enough to contradict anything I've been saying:
I really don't think there is enough solid information on werewolves to make any lore based argument on what proportion of werewolves are CE and what are CG / what criteria you must meet to be a CG or CN werewolf other than that it's known werewolves are generally CE and CG werewolves exist.
They could be anywhere from .00000000001% of werewolves to 49.999999999999999%.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
As a werewolf you gain no powers outside hybrid/animal form. Your control over assuming those forms, the bonuses they grant, and the abilities that make you powerful in those forms come from werewolf faction bonuses.
So far the only suggested way to grow werewolf faction is full-moon night kills which dont give rep penalties but give alignment penalties as normal.
I would hope / think other outlined ways to grow your faction tempt you to give in to your bloodthirsty nature as well.
So if one were to play a chaotic-good werewolf they would have to pass up on every full moon night kill against targets that would make them slide toward evil.
This means their werewolf powers, the entire point of going werewolf, grow far, far, far, more slowly.
CG may be a better alignment than CE in general but not for werewolves.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Dark Fantasy is more than the inclusion of werewolves and vampires. That reduces the genre to something, well, pitiful.
If I add werewolf skins to zombies in Minecraft, is it suddenly dark fantasy? Not really. There is no horror. No fear, no anything.
Would a werewolves and vampires MMO be cool? Sure. Is it a good fit for PFO? No, not really.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
The closest source I can find in pathfinder is...
This isn't to say that good-aligned werewolves are unknown, but they're certainly a minority among their kind, and most werewolves are evil murderers who delight in the hunt and the succulent taste of raw meat.
The section right before that though, does point out they are the most well known of lycanthropes and wide-spread. Additionally, the most feared of all of them due to their nature and reputation.
Of all the various types of lycanthropes, it is the werewolf that is the most widespread and the most feared. Stories of werewolves haunting lonely forest roads, prowling misty moors on the outskirts of rural societies, or dwelling in the shadows of the largest cities are widespread as well. In most societies, werewolves are feared and despised—and with good reason, as the typical werewolf personifies all that is savage and bestial in a lycanthrope.
So probably not a great fit overall. If PFO was going to be in a country like Ustalav, then I could see something closer to that theme working well, though.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
That's not strong enough to contradict anything I've been saying:
I really don't think there is enough solid information on werewolves to make any lore based argument on what proportion of werewolves are CE and what are CG / what criteria you must meet to be a CG or CN werewolf other than that it's known werewolves are generally CE and CG werewolves exist.
They could be anywhere from .00000000001% of werewolves to 49.999999999999999%.
Don't exaggerate. Yeah, good werewolves can exist, no, they are not a significant number. When there is a significant amount of alignment variety, they don't just write a specific alignment, they write "most XXX are of YY alignment", like for dwarves.
So, if they exist at all, they are a very tiny, insignificant minority.
And don't start me on the definition of "insignificant minority", otherwise I will talk about immigration and call you a socialist. :D
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Actually I agree with KC.
Much like the Code set down by Bartolomeu Portugues, the rules are actually guidelines. In most everything it will state that while this is the recommended way, ultimately you can imagine whatever so long as it fits with your story, and even if it doesn't. This is the hallmark of the DnD, Pathfinder type worlds, the ultimate freedom of creation.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
It may be based very loosely on the Pathfinder ruleset, but they have also repeatedly stated it is in the River Kingdoms, a documented and fleshed out area in the world of Golarion. I personally think adhering as much as possible to the lore of Golarion is something that is very important.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
In most societies, werewolves are feared and despised—and with good reason, as the typical werewolf personifies all that is savage and bestial in a lycanthrope.
This is directly addressed. Going into hybrid from (the only form that makes you an obviously identifiable werewolf, and also the only form were werewolf powers are really fearsome) gives you the heinous flag. It does this regardless of alignment or if you've done anything else, and that flag doesn't begin to wear off until you've reverted to another form.
Basically werewolves are a hated enough creature that everyone can attack them consequence free when they reveal themselves. You don't have to question if it's really a nice werewolf, you get to just attack it.
I'm not sure if I mentioned it or not but it should also set off all the NPC guards.
The slayers are the players who are more accomplished at identifying monstrous creatures. They can tell your true nature and attack you anywhere when they are flagged for the cause. Again, alignment has no bearing on this.
You can't just go running around in lycanthropic form being all like "I'm Jacob Nicepuppy the good aligned werewolf so please don't attack me." You have to constantly be watching for slayers and be very careful about when you use your powers. It actually fits perfectly with the lore.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
So the norm for Werewolves is CE. Alignment (-5000,-5000), with a range from (-2500,-2500) to (-7500,-7500).
What they could do for werewolves, and all other monster races, is a periodic automated survey of all of the alignments of all of those critters. If the average falls outside the alignment, then all characters with an outside of the norm alignment take a penalty, scaled to how far they're outside the norm.
I actually think this might be useful if they allow us Drow - the PC Drow wouldn't be recognizable as such.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
If anyone has ever played a monster in the Ettenmoors in LotRO I'm sure they remember how you increase your PvP rank though killing enemies and this determines what abilities you can train, with higher PvP rank characters getting progressively and progressively more powerful, and max rank characters being the most powerful but also exceedingly rare. There are players who have been actively playing for years and do not have max PvP rank.
That's exactally how werewolf faction standing would work, and most of the options for increasing werewolf faction standing will be evil actions.
So this is not something you can gain power effectively at while sticking strictly to the good alignment. This also isn't something you come into, quickly grind to the top, then switch over to chaotic-good.
That's the limitation. That's how the lure to evil inherent in the blood of the werewolf is portrayed.
If you really don't think that's strong enough there here's three other things which could be considered:
1. Making actions that give good alignment give less good alignment to werewolves.
2. Treating your core alignment as chaotic-evil in terms of alignment drift even if you have a different core alignment.
3. Making self-defense against players attacking you while in werewolf form considered an evil act.
I just don't favor hard alignment restrictions where CG werewolves clearly exist.
---------------------------------------
In other words think of it like this. A chaotic good werewolf would be a werewolf that's running around fighting with their curse and trying not to hurt people. Possibly not even those who fear/hate them for their curse. They spend a lot of time running, a lot less time killing, and are just generally less fearsome werewolves.
A regular werewolf has an appetite for flesh and gorges themselves on it every opportunity they get, growing stronger and stronger as they do.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
To become a werewolf in PFO, you'd likely be an afflicted lycanthrope and not a natural lycanthrope.
That means at every full moon for the rest of your character's life, the settlement to which you belong would suffer all sorts of various Development Index damage unless you were safely locked away.
The faction for advancing lycanthropy would likely be evil aligned, because evil lycanthropes greatly outweigh any other alignment types if you go by the "standard" versions of all of them listed in the PF source materials. This would probably require specialized buildings for this or at least specialized upgrades for buildings specifically to support it.
Countering lycanthropes would be people playing things like Oracles of the Moon. They have an ability which flat shuts down lycanthropy as a touch attack. Plus they can become immune to lycanthropy and don't need to worry about contracting it. Oracles of the Moon would likely become extremely popular due to their ability to shut down werewolves. Another counter would be the spell True Form which is available to Druids, Wizards, and Sorcerers which also can force a lycanthrope back to human form. Or, there's always an old-fashioned Paladin who just spams "Smite Evil" since there's a good likelihood that you're going to be evil since your settlement would need to be evil to support lycanthropy. You could be neutral to muck with paladins, but we've still got a couple other options that turns off your lycanthropy.
So, you'd need an evil settlement willing to build a specialized faction building specifically for lycanthropes. They'd need to be willing to take the DI hit every full moon (since afflicted lycanthropes cannot control themselves if they turn on a full moon). For a template that can be shutdown by a couple different abilities which people will quickly acquire if it appears that werewolves are too strong. Or if they just don't like werewolves. Plus, the people choosing to be werewolves can be killed on sight if they choose to use their abilities. The angry mobs with torches and pitchforks take no alignment or reputation repercussions for killing the lycanthrope. Heck, they might gain alignment or reputation for doing it.
I think there are a lot more things the devs could do with their time that would make a larger and more important impact in the game for the next couple years than add this. At some point, sure? However, I don't think we're near that point. It's like asking for gold plated faucets when they're still digging up the road and trying to run water to the building.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I'm not asking for it now. It was mainly a topic to float the ideas and get some constructive criticism so we'd have a good system already thought up when we reach that point.
I spelled that out in the OP.
By the way, thank you for being one of the few posters with anything constructive to add.
|
Let me try explain my previous point of view of having WW/Vamp in PFO:
"How to Viably Add Dark Fantasy to PFO"?
Let's check what was being Crowndforged:
Pathfinder Online is a fantasy sandbox MMO by Goblinworks based on the Pathfinder tabletop game.
By Fantasy we can understand:
Fantasy is a genre of fiction that commonly uses magic and other supernatural phenomena as a primary plot element, theme, or setting. Many works within the genre take place in imaginary worlds where magic and magical creatures are common. Fantasy is generally distinguished from the genres of science fiction and horror by the expectation that it steers clear of scientific and macabre themes, respectively, though there is a great deal of overlap between the three, all of which are subgenres of speculative fiction.
In popular culture, the fantasy genre is predominantly of the medievalist form, especially since the worldwide success of The Lord of the Rings and related books by J. R. R. Tolkien. In its broadest sense, however, fantasy comprises works by many writers, artists, filmmakers, and musicians, from ancient myths and legends to many recent works embraced by a wide audience today.
Fantasy is a vibrant area of academic study in a number of disciplines (English, cultural studies, comparative literature, history, medieval studies). Work in this area ranges widely, from the structuralist theory of Tzvetan Todorov, which emphasizes the fantastic as a liminal space, to work on the connections (political, historical, literary) between medievalism and popular culture.[References: Jane Tolmie, "Medievalism and the Fantasy Heroine", Journal of Gender Studies, Vol. 15, No. 2 (July 2006), pp. 145–158. ISSN 0958-9236]
And as long there were different setting in previous Fantasy Games that allowed Dark Fantasy genre (Ravenloft, least in Eberron), they are a tottaly different setting from Fantasy ones (Greyhawk, Mystara, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance) not only by lore, but by characteristic.
By all the wall text, and therefore my opinion, the viablity of turning PFO on Dark Fantasy is zero. This could fit in the end of 4-5 years circle where the need of near contend must taken place. But now, in my mind, the game need a coherent whole game, to stabilish a standart, a community, an identity.
That's why a lot of people are arguing against your idea. And I don't see why stuck with it so hard, since don't seems the main objective of the game invest in a tottaly different enviroment, if the main one isn't already complete.
As I was an active player of White-Wolf games (including Dark Ages ones), it would be amazing if those World of Darkness could be done in the right way to give the horror sensation of being there. But since the dream was dead. I don't think the PFO is the right place to insert my willings to play with monsters with philosophical-existentialists rhetorics. But I bought Vampire Bloodlines to play... :D