I'm running a table of 10th level players and I'm wondering if their ACs are maybe a little high.
I have a fighter that has an AC of 30 and something over 100 hp and a Dragon Disciple Sorcerer with an AC of 32 and 100 hp.
This means that an appropriately challenging martial monster (Ettin,Redcap etc.) only has something like a 15% chance to hit the fighter and a 5% chance to hit the Sorcerer.
Is this normal?
-Erich
What kind of fighter?
A fighter with a con of 14 and toughness would have to roll an average of 7's to get 100 HP.
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I'm running a table of 10th level players and I'm wondering if their ACs are maybe a little high.
I have a fighter that has an AC of 30 and something over 100 hp and a Dragon Disciple Sorcerer with an AC of 32 and 100 hp.
This means that an appropriately challenging martial monster (Ettin,Redcap etc.) only has something like a 15% chance to hit the fighter and a 5% chance to hit the Sorcerer.
Is this normal?-Erich
It's an oft-cited rule of thumb that a PC who wants to focus on AC should have at least 20+level, if not more.
@Chaotic Fighter - You forgot FCBs, which puts your example's average roll back down to 6, which is entirely reasonable. And that's to say nothing of the possibility of enhancing CON by 10th level, which is not a stretch at all.
Yes I did. And yeah I was using fourteen as a base of what a fighter should have at minimum.
Yeah 100 hp at level 10 isn't crazy or anything. Figure this: If a level 10 Fighter has a 10 Con (+0), rolls below average each level (5 on a d10), and puts favored class bonus into hitpoints each level, he's still going to have 65 hitpoints (max hp at first level + 45hp rolled each level +10 hp from fav class bonus).
And again, that 65 hitpoints is assuming the Fighter has rolled below average hps each level and has no Con bonus at all. Just average rolls (5.5 on a d10) and a +2 Con bonus is going to increase that number to 89 hitpoints. Toughness brings that number up to 99.
So A-dawg, you're saying that my AC 25 fighter (unbreakable)1/wizard (transmuter)5/eldritch knight 5 is going to have his head handed to him by a single stone golem if I can't get 2 spells cast pre-fight to get my AC to 31? And even WITH a 31 the monster is still hitting me half the time? Why does ANYONE tank on the front lines?
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So A-dawg, you're saying that my AC 25 fighter (unbreakable)1/wizard (transmuter)5/eldritch knight 5 is going to have his head handed to him by a single stone golem if I can't get 2 spells cast pre-fight to get my AC to 31? And even WITH a 31 the monster is still hitting me half the time? Why does ANYONE tank on the front lines?
By having better AC than that. Eldritch Knights are potentially quite good, but sans magic their AC is mediocre at best. It's only their strong suit with serious spell-work put into it. Mirror Image comes immediately to mind as something that makes even mediocre AC much more viable, too.
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So A-dawg, you're saying that my AC 25 fighter (unbreakable)1/wizard (transmuter)5/eldritch knight 5 is going to have his head handed to him by a single stone golem if I can't get 2 spells cast pre-fight to get my AC to 31? And even WITH a 31 the monster is still hitting me half the time? Why does ANYONE tank on the front lines?
The thing with AC that a lot of people do not seem to grasp is this:
You can have a fantastic to unhittable AC on most characters, but you have to devote to it. Just splashing some in will not be effective 1st line protection.
An incredibly vanilla 10th level human fighter could fairly routinely have an AC of 41:
10 base
3 Dex
11 armor (+2 full plate)
2 deflection (ring of protection +2)
4 dodge (3 combat expertise, 1 dodge feat)
1 insight (dusty rose ioun stone)
2 luck (jingasa of the fortunate soldier + fate's favored trait)
2 natural (amulet of natural armor +2)
6 shield (+2 heavy steel shield + greater shield focus)
Adding the right archetype and a little bit of optimization could easily push that into the mid to high 40's. But as you can see, it cost this vanilla fighter a pinch over half of his WBL to achieve this. (35,820 gp of 62,000 gp)
So A-dawg, you're saying that my AC 25 fighter (unbreakable)1/wizard (transmuter)5/eldritch knight 5 is going to have his head handed to him by a single stone golem if I can't get 2 spells cast pre-fight to get my AC to 31? And even WITH a 31 the monster is still hitting me half the time? Why does ANYONE tank on the front lines?The thing with AC that a lot of people do not seem to grasp is this:
You can have a fantastic to unhittable AC on most characters, but you have to devote to it. Just splashing some in will not be effective 1st line protection.
An incredibly vanilla 10th level human fighter could fairly routinely have an AC of 41:
10 base
3 Dex
11 armor (+2 full plate)
2 deflection (ring of protection +2)
4 dodge (3 combat expertise, 1 dodge feat)
1 insight (dusty rose ioun stone)
2 luck (jingasa of the fortunate soldier + fate's favored trait)
2 natural (amulet of natural armor +2)
6 shield (+2 heavy steel shield + greater shield focus)Adding the right archetype and a little bit of optimization could easily push that into the mid to high 40's. But as you can see, it cost this vanilla fighter a pinch over half of his WBL to achieve this. (35,820 gp of 62,000 gp)
Not to mention 3 feats and a trait. That means that they've only got 7, maybe 8 feats and their other trait to account for things like slow base speed, to hit and damage bonuses, saves etc. That's the other thing; you can completely tank out your AC building specifically to that but as a vanilla fighter your saves will be less than stellar so a single failed Will save puts you out of commission for the fight.
I think when building a character around defense you have to look at TOTAL defense like saves, SR or DR, AC, and mobility.
@ the OP: I think your PCs are entirely appropriate for their level. The larger question to ask yourself is how easily can they end a fight. Check melee/ranged attack bonuses, avg damage on a full attack, and spell lists. Compare these against a few of the monsters you have planned. If these guys are going to be one-shotting APL +0 monsters then you may want to up your game just a tad.
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AC 'tiers':
10+Level: Stop minions from automatically hitting you.
15+Level: Reasonable AC - against most foes, you can be missed, but shouldn't expect to be.
20+Level: Most foes have trouble hitting you
25+Level: Most foes hit only on a 20
30+Level: Too High, all attacks automatically hit.
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So A-dawg, you're saying that my AC 25 fighter (unbreakable)1/wizard (transmuter)5/eldritch knight 5 is going to have his head handed to him by a single stone golem if I can't get 2 spells cast pre-fight to get my AC to 31? And even WITH a 31 the monster is still hitting me half the time? Why does ANYONE tank on the front lines?
An AC focused character will be facing that stone golem with a 35+ AC.
Your eldritch knight should use Grease, pretty much forcing the golem to fight prone.
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AC 'tiers':
10+Level: Stop minions from automatically hitting you.
15+Level: Reasonable AC - against most foes, you can be missed, but shouldn't expect to be.
20+Level: Most foes have trouble hitting you
25+Level: Most foes hit only on a 20
30+Level: Too High, all attacks automatically hit.
This is pretty much how I see things as well.
Also, Lormyr's sample fighter would still have a 34 AC with no feats or traits spent, which is still pretty good for 10th level. IME, Combat Expertise ends up in a lot of fighter builds just to get at the Improved maneuver feats, and is certainly worth taking as a "tank" fighter.
Honestly, with a fighter especially, it's not tough to make a character that has a huge AC and still hits like a truck on a 3, even when using both Power Attack and Combat Expertise. That's kinda what fighters do. Most "fighters are weak" complaints are because that's all a fighter does well.
As an aside, Lormyr's fighter even has a respectable AC22 vs. touch attacks.
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Not to mention 3 feats and a trait. That means that they've only got 7, maybe 8 feats and their other trait to account for things like slow base speed, to hit and damage bonuses, saves etc. That's the other thing; you can completely tank out your AC building specifically to that but as a vanilla fighter your saves will be less than stellar so a single failed Will save puts you out of commission for the fight.
I think when building a character around defense you have to look at TOTAL defense like saves, SR or DR, AC, and mobility.
@ the OP: I think your PCs are entirely appropriate for their level. The larger question to ask yourself is how easily can they end a fight. Check melee/ranged attack bonuses, avg damage on a full attack, and spell lists. Compare these against a few of the monsters you have planned. If these guys are going to be one-shotting APL +0 monsters then you may want to up your game just a tad.
Indeed. High AC is more costly down the board than high offense. But I have typically found it to be worth it, myself.
A nearly same build could have reasonable saves. I assumed a base stat array of Str 15, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 7 - running a half-orc instead of human after level boosts would bump Str to 18 and Dex to 16. If you through down 13,000 of your leftover gp on cloak of resistance +3 and a cracked pale green prism ioun stone, you'd be looking at saves of:
7/3/3 base
2/3/1 attributes
3/3/3 resistance
2/2/2 luck (half-orc tattoo + fate's favored)
1/1/1 competence
Fort +15, Ref +12, Will +10
Not terrible saves, but not incredible either. But then again, fighters are hardly the best defensive class. A monk, druid, magus [kensai], Oracle, Shaman, or various splashes there of would be much, much higher at that level on both.
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This is pretty much how I see things as well.
Also, Lormyr's sample fighter would still have a 34 AC with no feats or traits spent, which is still pretty good for 10th level. IME, Combat Expertise ends up in a lot of fighter builds just to get at the Improved maneuver feats, and is certainly worth taking as a "tank" fighter.
Honestly, with a fighter especially, it's not tough to make a character that has a huge AC and still hits like a truck on a 3, even when using both Power Attack and Combat Expertise. That's kinda what fighters do. Most "fighters are weak" complaints are because that's all a fighter does well.
As an aside, Lormyr's fighter even has a respectable AC22 vs. touch attacks.
Making defensive characters and "God" spellcasters is pretty much my area of expertise in terms of game mechanics, so AC issues are pretty easy for me. I understand why some people can struggle with it though, because the system is not nearly as intuitive for it as for offense.
As I said above, if you want a top tier defensive character, you have to be prepared to sink 1/3 to 2/3 (depending on your build)of your character building resources into it. Like most things in life, you will get out of it what you put into it.
I'm running a table of 10th level players and I'm wondering if their ACs are maybe a little high.
I have a fighter that has an AC of 30 and something over 100 hp and a Dragon Disciple Sorcerer with an AC of 32 and 100 hp.
This means that an appropriately challenging martial monster (Ettin,Redcap etc.) only has something like a 15% chance to hit the fighter and a 5% chance to hit the Sorcerer.
Is this normal?-Erich
As mentioned CR 6 monsters arent appropately challenging for a party of 10th level characters. Generally I find a good measure of a character is to look at monsters 1 or 2 CR bellow their level. Keep in mind the game effectively assumes 4 15 point buy non-optimized characters, If your characters are optimized, add 1 to their CR. If you have better then 15 point stats, add another 1. So assuming that puts them at APL 12, Then 4 CR 9 monsters, makes for a CR 13 encounter, a challenging but normal encounter for this 10th level party.
Lets look at some CR 9 monsters:
Greater Earth elemental, 2 +21 slams, Dire Crocodile, +18 followed by a +13, T-Rex +20 bite, Frost Giant, +18/+13. All of these have petty solit odds of landing a blow on your fighter and dragon disciple on a full attack.
My guess is you are expecting CR 10 encounters to be challenging, which is almost never the case except with lowish powered characters.
It's cheesy but its an angle, I have a level 11 cleric with 39 something ac. But try to CMB me and im toast or a tough reflex save.
Some one tell me if this is Paizo legal. I had to put everything into it
and it sucks whent he monsters ignore you.1st warrior (tower shield spec)/10 cleric
+1 Defender of the society(warrior trait)
+1 Dodge
+6 Mithril Towershield +2
+3 Ring of deflection
+3 Amulet of nat armor
Sash of the war champion (armor training feat Max 3 dex)
+3 dex
11 +2 full plate
+1 shield focus
I do believe that tower shields can only be made of wood, and as such, aren't valid to be made out of metal materials by RAW. Darkwood provides a similar effect, though.
I'm guessing warrior here means fighter, not the NPC class, yes?
I do believe that tower shields can only be made of wood, and as such, aren't valid to be made out of metal materials by RAW. Darkwood provides a similar effect, though.
[citation needed]
The Tower Shield flavor text does say its made out of wood, but the iconic roman shield which is the basis for the tower shield is clearly made out of metal. I also do not see any rules under tower shield or special materials that says that tower shields CAN'T be made out of anything but wood.
There is a precedent for metal tower shields in Pathfinder.
I do believe that tower shields can only be made of wood, and as such, aren't valid to be made out of metal materials by RAW. Darkwood provides a similar effect, though.[citation needed]
The Tower Shield flavor text does say its made out of wood, but the iconic roman shield which is the basis for the tower shield is clearly made out of metal. I also do not see any rules under tower shield or special materials that says that tower shields CAN'T be made out of anything but wood.
Yeah, there was a thread about this a while ago, I'll see if I can find it. Of course, it'll take me awhile to find the relevant FAQ (if it even exists) since apparently item descriptions aren't good enough of a source to see what they are made out of anymore.
Still, would be a pretty reasonable houserule to allow metal tower shields if it does need to be house ruled.
So, this is the first thing I found in a thread search with the words "mithril tower shield". Going from this it appears:
1. The standard towershield is made out of wood (hardness of 5 like wood).
2. There is no FAQ stating one way or the other whether or not a tower shield can be made out of metal instead.
3. Again, darkwood has the same effect without getting into weird RAW interperetation's.
I'm running a table of 10th level players and I'm wondering if their ACs are maybe a little high.
I have a fighter that has an AC of 30 and something over 100 hp and a Dragon Disciple Sorcerer with an AC of 32 and 100 hp.
This means that an appropriately challenging martial monster (Ettin,Redcap etc.) only has something like a 15% chance to hit the fighter and a 5% chance to hit the Sorcerer.
Is this normal?-Erich
In our Rise of the Runelords game we had two martials, a Human Barbarian and a Goblin Brawler with a couple of levels of Monk. At 12th level with normal WBL (all I have at hand), the Barbarian had an AC of 26 but he had DR 14/-, while the Goblin had an AC of 33 with a -1 bonus to enemy attacks from Menacing Stance. That number was actually 38 back before the ridiculous nerf to Crane Style.
You are a Wizard. It is a Golem. Acid Pit is a spell available to you. Its Reflex save is +3. Watch it melt while it bellows plaintively at the bottom unable to escape.
Wouldn't the golem just climb out? Pit DCs are terrible and golems are pretty good climbers on account of their high strength.
You are a Wizard. It is a Golem. Acid Pit is a spell available to you. Its Reflex save is +3. Watch it melt while it bellows plaintively at the bottom unable to escape.Wouldn't the golem just climb out? Pit DCs are terrible and golems are pretty good climbers on account of their high strength.
Um huh? Acid pit is a 30dc to climb. Create pit is 25. Spiked pit is the low one with 20. A stone golem is to my knowledge incapable of climbing out of an acid pit or a hungry pit and will have significant difficulty climbout out of a normal pit, and needs over a 10 to climb out of a spiked pit.
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But he's large sized and can easily reach the opposite sides of the chute.
Climbing a chimney (artificial or natural) or other location where you can brace against two opposite walls lowers the DC by 10. Having two perpendicular walls (a corner) to brace against reduces the DC by 5 more.
So, actually, the DC is only 15 for him. He climbs out automatically by taking 10.
Acid pit has a climb DC of 30. A stone golem's climb modifier is +9 and it can't take a 10 given the constant acid damage. So, it would have to roll a 21 to get out of the pit.
Edit: Ninja'd
The Stone Golem should get a -10 Climb DC modifier, because it is a large creature (10') and is in a 10' wide pit. The Golem is "Climbing a chimney (artificial or natural) or other location where you can brace against two opposite walls."
This lowers the DC to 20, and the Golem needs to roll an 11 to make progress climbing out. Granted, it's not going to make it out for quite a while, and you can probably kill it before it does so. But it's not an auto-win.
Those modifiers stack don't forget. He is also in a corner, so the DC is actually 15.
Those modifiers stack don't forget. He is also in a corner, so the DC is actually 15.
Fair enough, I hadnt thought about the whole being able to brace himself. But none the less, you climb at a quarter your speed, the stone golems speed is 20. Thats 10ft per round. Depending on caster level that can be a long time for acid pit.
Or
Round 1 - I cast Monstrous Physique II while my familiar casts Shield from a scroll; I might survive the first round if I'm at full HP
Round 2 - full attack with 6 attacks (Huge 4-armed gargoyle) using my familiar to Aid Another while flanking and my Outflank teamwork feat (the familiar has the Valet arch so it qualifies in teamwork) puts those 6 attacks at +21 to hit. I use my swift action to drop in Arcane Strike for +12 damage on each hit. The stone golem is an AC 26 so a 5 or better or 80% to hit.
So if my familiar didn't just kill itself and if my 6 attacks hit I'm inflicting 4d8 (claws) +1d6 (gore) +2d6 (bite) +2d6 from some acid gloves I'm wearing +72 for an average full attack of 97 damage. Now of course there's DR in there and I have to look up how Arcane Strike's "counts as a magic weapon" interacts with that if at all, but 97 damage is kind of respectable right?
Or I could drop it in a pit for sure.
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We once used a communal mount spell to drop a bunch of horses onto an alchemical golem that was trying to climb out of a pit. Good times.
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Playing a dex fighter and you can leave Str at 14 for power attack and weight allowance to wear full plate, drop dex to 14+2 from race with a +4 dex belt and +2 from levels, let's you increase wisdom to 14, along with a trait for will saves and you look like:
7/3/3 base
2/6/2 attributes
3/3/3 resistance
2/2/2 luck
1/1/1 competence
0/0/1 traitFort +15, Ref +16, Will +12
A wisdom headband wouldn't be out of the question for this level either giving you a Will +13.
Reduces your damage if you're a 2 hander and requires weapon finesse and an agile weapon. Not too harsh in investment. Most people hate on dex builds, but I find them very applicable to fighters with a class ability that let's you utilize dex more. Can get even higher touch and regular AC.
Or if your GM allows item crafting make Slotless Muleback cords, drop strength to 10, take piranha strikes instead of power attack, and enjoy 5 more build points. Hurts damage a little more until you get an agile weapon.
I was just trying to keep it fairly vanilla for example purposes. There are a lot of options that are better than what I outlined.
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But he's large sized and can easily reach the opposite sides of the chute.
Climbing a chimney (artificial or natural) or other location where you can brace against two opposite walls lowers the DC by 10. Having two perpendicular walls (a corner) to brace against reduces the DC by 5 more.
So, actually, the DC is only 15 for him. He climbs out automatically by taking 10.
Personally, I would not allow the golem to take 10, as the acid and it's legs burning would clearly be both danger and distraction. But other than that, yeah.