Attack of Opportunities occur before the triggering action. So the AOO for standing actually happens when the target is still prone, thus making them untripable.
Other than than FAQ post, who or what official ruling actually says you can't? By a strict interpretation here (non-house-ruling it of course) You most certainly can "trip" lock someone.
No, you can't, without changing the rules. The FAQ is as official as it gets--as official as the printed books themselves. They represent the collective, considered decisions of the Pathfinder Design Team in response to specific rules questions. Asking for two places in the book that state a rule is silly when one is enough.
Gwiber,
It might not make sense from a "real world" perspective, but the reason for that FAQ ruling was, probably, to prevent precisely what you're proposing: a looping cycle of tripping someone to provoke attacks of opportunity for fellow party members.
Attacks of opportunity are made with one's normal attack bonus. Assuming fellow party members have Combat Reflexes and a sufficiently high Dexterity, you could abuse this situation for two or more free attacks per character, per round. Even if they didn't, though, it's still a stalling tactic... and at some point this leads away from the game being a fun simulation of heroic deeds.
At least that's what I think seebs is referring to.
AoOs obviously go off before the triggering action initiates. Otherwise, they wouldn't work. If I go to walk away from you, and the AoO goes off after my action, you're swinging at air while I'm 30' away. If i cast a spell near you, the spell would complete before you got to attempt to interrupt it (and thus the 'damage during spellcasting' concentration check wouldn't even be a thing).
AoOs obviously go off before the triggering action initiates. Otherwise, they wouldn't work. If I go to walk away from you, and the AoO goes off after my action, you're swinging at air while I'm 30' away. If i cast a spell near you, the spell would complete before you got to attempt to interrupt it (and thus the 'damage during spellcasting' concentration check wouldn't even be a thing).Well, that's the thing.
If it was before the other action even initiates, you wouldn't be taking damage while casting. You'd be taking damage before casting.
Except the rule defines damage taken as a result of a readied action or an AoO from casting as damage taken while casting.
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The interrupt taking place is happening after the action triggers it, but before it actually resolves: ie once you start to cast a spell or aim with a ranged weapon or raise a potion to your lips, but before you get the spell off or fire the arrow or drink. Hence casting can be disrupted.
The same is true with readied actions. You can't shoot "the first orc to enter the room" until an orc actually enters the room. So that orc has to begin his move, enter the room, and then can be hit before he can finish his move action.
Standing from prone breaks this for game balance. Realistically, when someone is gathering their feet under them to stand, you can knock them back over. But the Dev's don't want a game where warriors can easily triplock casters and proceed to pound them to death. So via the game rules, the target is prone until they're standing. You cannot reapply the prone condition (or if you can it just means nothing), your AoO resolves, and now the target stands up...as per the FAQ.
Elbedor is absolutely correct in his reasoning.
I got an even worse example for you: in the ToEE video game, you could be tripped locked, but you couldn't choose to stay on the ground! You never had a chance to do anything when the locking started!
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No, readied actions and AoO occur before the triggering event for game purposes. Whether it makes real world sense or not, that's how the rules play it out. And to cover that issue, the spellcasting rules include provisions that say if you are attacked via AoO or readied action when you are casting, it counts as being damaged while casting.
I understand the hesitancy to accept that, as it belies our real world understanding of the flow of time, etc. However, that really is how things work under the rules.
Relevant rules quotations provided as well as a Developer comment (from a thread on triplocking, no less) which clearly explains the timing issue.
Injury: If you take damage while trying to cast a spell, you must make a concentration check with a DC equal to 10 + the damage taken + the level of the spell you're casting. If you fail the check, you lose the spell without effect. The interrupting event strikes during spellcasting if it comes between the time you started and the time you complete a spell (for a spell with a casting time of 1 full round or more) or if it comes in response to your casting the spell (such as an attack of opportunity provoked by the spell or a contingent attack, such as a readied action).
An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
The time issue really is just to keep matters simple (as many have pointed out). Technically, the AoO occurs as the event that provokes it is taking place, but since we can't have "middle ground" conditions, they are pushed to before to keep things straightforward. This is the only way it makes sense for spellcasting, movement, and, in this case, standing up and trip.
Whether or not triplock is too powerful is mostly irrelevant. I personally believe it is too good if the "in combat" cost is an AoO, but probably ok if it burns and action to pull off. Fortunately for my opinion, the rules support this as well, and have done so since the 3.5 ruling on this same issue.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
It's very late here and I'm really tired, so maybe I'm not fully understanding what you're saying, fretgod99, but JB's ruling had to do with avoiding trip-locking. He was talking about how AoOs behave with interrupting actions.
An AoO takes place before the action that triggered it resolves (like when someone provokes while trying to stand up from prone). It doesn't take place before the trigger itself. I don't get an AoO on someone when they think about drinking a potion adjacent to me. They have to actually attempt that action first. The vial is in their hand. Then before it resolves, I get my AoO.
I was under the impression this was pretty straight forward.
Same thing with a Readied Action. If I ready a melee attack against the first orc to come within reach, there is no way I can make that attack on an orc outside of my reach. He must first move into the square I threaten. THEN I get my attack. What you're suggesting sounds like I can somehow make an attack roll on an orc outside of my threatened space. That breaks all sorts of rules.
Same thing with Counterspelling. There is nothing for me to counterspell unless my target has first begun his incantation. Before he begins, there is nothing for me to check Spellcraft against.
This is also the case with trying to disrupt a spellcaster with damage. If I hit him before he actually begins to cast, then I'm not disrupting anything.
In game terms the sequence plays out very smoothly:
#1 The target begins doing something that triggers an AoO or a Readied Action.
#2 The AoO or Readied Action resolves first.
#3 Then the triggering action resolves if it can.
This may or may not reset the Attacker's Initiative. If so, it is set to the same number as the action that triggered it, but it comes right before. So if I had a 15 and that orc acted on 10, then my new initiative is 10, but I go right before the orc from then on.
Maybe the wording could be better, but I believe the RAI is that AoO/Readied happens before the trigger resolves. Otherwise we get:
PC: "I ready an action to shoot the first orc that enters the room through that door."
GM: "An orc is going to try to enter the room. Go ahead and make an attack roll."
PC: "An orc comes through the door?"
GM: "No, not yet. But your action resolves first, so go ahead and roll."
PC: "Against what? The door is still closed and there's nothing to shoot at."
An AoO takes place before the action that triggered it resolves (like when someone provokes while trying to stand up from prone). It doesn't take place before the trigger itself. I don't get an AoO on someone when they think about drinking a potion adjacent to me. They have to actually attempt that action first. The vial is in their hand. Then before it resolves, I get my AoO.
JB agrees with you from the real world flow of time perspective.
Technically, the AoO occurs as the event that provokes it is taking place,
Then goes on to explain from a game mechanics perspective.
but since we can't have "middle ground" conditions, they are pushed to before to keep things straightforward.
I really don't know how to explain it any different than what JB just did.
But you didn't understand this game mechanic distinction during the very long discussion on when an AoO triggered from greater trip occurs either... let's not rehash that here :)
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I don't understand what you intend to accomplish by tripping a prone creature.
It does nothing.
This is exactly like trying to disarm, a disarmed enemy.
Not exactly like trying to disarm a disarmed enemy... You can gain some significant advantages by cutting the arms off a disarmed enemy.
But yeah, tripping a prone creature won't do much.
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Step 1: Get Trip, Disarm, and Combat Reflexes
Step 2: Trip Opponent
Step 3: Disarm him when he tries to stand up.
Step 4: Trip him when he tries to pick up his sword.
Step 5: Full attack him on your turn.
Step 6: Repeat steps 3-5
The cycle of pain brother!
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Greater Trip makes it even more fun, since you trip him, disarm him from the AoO from Greater Trip, so you can just play whackamole with him when he tries to stand or pick up his weapon.
Especially fun if you have a reach weapon, since that virtually forces him to have to stand up to get to you...
If he picks up his weapon while prone, hit him for damage.
If he stands up before getting his weapon, hit him for damage while he is standing up.
When he picks up his weapon after standing, you can trip him.
If he stands after picking up his weapon, you can disarm him.
An AoO takes place before the action that triggered it resolves (like when someone provokes while trying to stand up from prone). It doesn't take place before the trigger itself. I don't get an AoO on someone when they think about drinking a potion adjacent to me. They have to actually attempt that action first. The vial is in their hand. Then before it resolves, I get my AoO.
JB agrees with you from the real world flow of time perspective.
Technically, the AoO occurs as the event that provokes it is taking place,
Then goes on to explain from a game mechanics perspective.
but since we can't have "middle ground" conditions, they are pushed to before to keep things straightforward.
I really don't know how to explain it any different than what JB just did.
But you didn't understand this game mechanic distinction during the very long discussion on when an AoO triggered from greater trip occurs either... let's not rehash that here :)
I understand the game mechanics and how they function just fine. I think we're agreeing on the same points, but coming from different directions. What I was avoiding was reading so literally into the rules that we have AoOs and Readied Actions taking place before they're even triggered...which is a strictly literal, although inaccurate, reading of the rules or JB's response.
It is realistically and game-mechanically impossible for me to brace a spear against a charge from a target 30ft away and attack BEFORE the charge even begins. The charge MUST be in progress in order for my readied attack to take place.
Similarly, if an opponent casts a spell while threatened, we all recognize that the casting has begun and we can now attempt to disrupt it before it manifests. Too literal of a reading puts the AoO before casting started, and now we can't disrupt the spell.
We agree the sequence of the OP is simple:
Prone target attempts to stand.
PC performs AoO on target.
Target stands.
The same would be true for a target attempting to leave a threatened square. Tries to leave (trigger), AoO, target leaves.
The key here is that the target has begun something. If he's not attempting to charge/cast/stand/leave, then he's not triggering, and I'm not getting my attack.
Specific instances (such as denying Trip-lock) break that sequence because they have to for game balance. But this doesn't mean every case of AoO or Readied Actions does so. It's impossible for them to, as noted in the examples above.
Maybe things could have been written better. Maybe not. But again, I think we all agree and recognize when and where specific AoOs and Readied Actions take place. :)
Can the attacker use a trip action as his attack of opp to try and keep the target down?If yes some kind of C&P ruling would be nice.
As you all can see this poster only wants rules that support what he is trying to do. Please be so kind as to refrain from quoting rules that contradict him. That wasn't what he asked for.
/sarcasm
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An AoO takes place before the action that triggered it resolves (like when someone provokes while trying to stand up from prone). It doesn't take place before the trigger itself. I don't get an AoO on someone when they think about drinking a potion adjacent to me. They have to actually attempt that action first. The vial is in their hand. Then before it resolves, I get my AoO.
JB agrees with you from the real world flow of time perspective.
Technically, the AoO occurs as the event that provokes it is taking place,
Then goes on to explain from a game mechanics perspective.
but since we can't have "middle ground" conditions, they are pushed to before to keep things straightforward.
I really don't know how to explain it any different than what JB just did.
But you didn't understand this game mechanic distinction during the very long discussion on when an AoO triggered from greater trip occurs either... let's not rehash that here :)
I understand the game mechanics and how they function just fine. I think we're agreeing on the same points, but coming from different directions. What I was avoiding was reading so literally into the rules that we have AoOs and Readied Actions taking place before they're even triggered...which is a strictly literal, although inaccurate, reading of the rules or JB's response.
It is realistically and game-mechanically impossible for me to brace a spear against a charge from a target 30ft away and attack BEFORE the charge even begins. The charge MUST be in progress in order for my readied attack to take place.
Similarly, if an opponent casts a spell while threatened, we all recognize that the casting has begun and we can now attempt to disrupt it before it manifests. Too literal of a reading puts the AoO before casting started, and now we can't disrupt the spell.
We agree the sequence of the OP is simple:
Prone target attempts to stand.
PC...
Yes, you are correct in all that you say. But, as far as the game rules are concerned, the readied action/AoO action happens before the triggering event. Yes, you are required to suspend disbelief at times to make the game rules work in a logical manner.
Maybe I'm the one being too literal here, but what you are suggesting doesn't fit any sense of logical manner at all.
#1 When I ready an action to make a melee attack against the first orc that comes within reach, that attack happens before the orc comes within reach.
???
How is that even possible by the rules? I cannot make a melee attack outside my threatened space. By RAW he must first come within reach before I can swing at him. Which means he's in the middle of doing something when my action interrupts and resolves before his does. We all know this.
#2 If a wizard casts a spell within my threatened area, my AoO happens before he starts to cast. Hence casting can never be disrupted because by RAW non-continuous damage suffered before or after casting does not disrupt.
We know that he's begun casting when the AoO lands, and any damage suffered could cause a disrupt. This is how disrupting (or counter-spelling) works.
The "logical manner" that applies to these and other cases is that the triggering action begins and then the AoO/Ready interrupts and resolves before the triggering action resolves. Any Initiative reordering puts you at the same number as your target, although you are listed right ahead of him.
Hence why I think the wording of the rules could be better, although they aren't really needed since I don't know anyone who would rule that #1 or #2 would play out as suggested above.
Maybe I'm the one being too literal here, but what you are suggesting doesn't fit any sense of logical manner at all.
#2 If a wizard casts a spell within my threatened area, my AoO happens before he starts to cast. Hence casting can never be disrupted because by RAW non-continuous damage suffered before or after casting does not disrupt.
#1 is the only weird one, based on the rules. We've talked about that before.
However, #2 is easy. It is specifically addressed in the rules. I mentioned the rule in the post you responded to.
Injury: If you take damage while trying to cast a spell, you must make a concentration check with a DC equal to 10 + the damage taken + the level of the spell you're casting. If you fail the check, you lose the spell without effect. The interrupting event strikes during spellcasting if it comes between the time you started and the time you complete a spell (for a spell with a casting time of 1 full round or more) or if it comes in response to your casting the spell (such as an attack of opportunity provoked by the spell or a contingent attack, such as a readied action).
The relevant language: The interrupting event strikes during spellcasting if ... it comes in response to your casting the spell (such as an attack of opportunity provoked by the spell or a contingent attack, such as a readied action).
RAW defines these types of attacks as interrupting spellcasting, even though they technically land before the spell is cast (even though technically the spellcasting has to be declared before the attack can be made). Again, it's not real-world applicable, but it is how the rules are intended to function (primarily for the sake of tracking).
It's certainly not real-world applicable if one defines actions in PF as 1-dimensional occurrences with no measureable Temporal value. They begin and end in a single moment with nothing in between.
This could be chalked up to the way the game works, though applying this universally flies in the face of many of the definitions given to us throughout the game. The target of my Vicious Stomp, for example, is clearly already prone when my AoO lands...which means that the AoO cannot be taking place before the trigger event, but instead is coming after it.
There are probably cases 1-dimension works. Others clearly don't. But ultimately it's really arguing semantics since we all know how 99% of any given situations play out.
Right, the only way it really works is to use it how it doesn't really work.
The AoO for spellcasting that happens before the spellcasting, as AoO's do, doesn't happen before spellcasting, it happens during.
And the readied action that happens on the Orc when he is out of range can't happen when he is out of range.
So the only way to follow the rules is to ignore the other parts of the rules.
Is it really a wonder that people keep asking the question? Why would anyone try to say it is logical when it clearly is not?
Readied actions don't follow the same rules as AoOs, really. They are similar, but not identical.
AoOs are provoked by a specific set of actions. These actions always provoke (barring special abilities), and the game rules say these actions are resolved before the action that triggers. And AoOs are "free" attacks. So the sequence is:
Character 1 declares a provoking action.
Character 2 takes an AoO.
Character 1 actually takes the provoking action (if still able).
Readied actions are specific, standard actions that you "hold in reserve" for a specific trigger. Basically, you sacrifice your regular turn for the advantage of being able to interrupt someone else's action.
So "If an orc comes into the room, I will shoot it" resolves as:
Orc opens the door.
Orc walks into the room as a move action.
The instant the orc steps in the first square inside the room, your readied action is triggered, and you shoot it.
The orc continues his movement.
It doesn't matter how many feet of movement the orc took to get into the room: the instant the orc is actually in the room, your readied action goes off.
One reason it feels like you're going before the orc is that you move your place in the initiative order to right before him (because there is no way to be "in the middle of his turn" in initiative order). But your action actually interrupts his turn.
So if you really want to "trip lock" someone, you can ready an action to trip someone "as soon as they finish standing up":
Character 1 declares that they will stand up (provoking action).
Any AoOs are resolved.
Character 1 actually stands up (completes the move action).
The instant Character 1 is standing, your readied actions is triggered, and you trip him.
Repeat.
Note that in order to do this, you are not taking any actions on your turn: you just stand there and wait for the guy to stand up. If the guy doesn't actually stand up, your readied action is wasted, and you go back into your original initiative order.
But it all depends on how you word your trigger. So, for instance, a smart player will say "I ready an action to hit him as soon as he starts to cast a spell" rather than "I ready to hit him if he casts a spell": in the second instance, a mean GM could easily interpret your trigger to be "as soon as he has finished casting his spell", which is kind of pointless.
Can the attacker use a trip action as his attack of opp to try and keep the target down?
The request is an invalid one, because it is only possible if the target is actually standing.
It appears to be a case of the player stating their 'hoped for' outcome as if it were an action choice.
It is more an intention for the future if the target attempts to stand. (Ready Action = Wait until he attempts to stand, then trip him) or (Delay = Wait until he is actually standing)
An AoO is just that, taking advantage of the opportunity that has arisen. Therefore, only weapons in hand (or other 'valid' options) at the time of the trigger may be used.
The standard attack of opportunity trip-lock is not possible. The enemy provokes before they actually stand from prone. Once the enemy has finished standing (and thus becomes trippable), the opportunity is lost.
A readied action is a different beast. You can ready an action to trip someone when they've finished standing, or if they try to do anything while standing. This doesn't really trip-lock, though--at least not without giving up your action every turn for one trip, a not-unfair trade of action economy.
Why would that trip-lock them? What is preventing them from standing up after the readied action?
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Why would that trip-lock them? What is preventing them from standing up after the readied action?
The poor trip-locked $&^&^$ can stand up again, but that means taking another round of AoOs. Anyone with remaining AoOs has Combat Reflexes, which means they'll likely hit quite hard. Also, the second attempt to stand uses up the victim's Standard Action, so they can't attack.
You are correct, though, that it's not quite a 'trip-lock'.
It wouldn't be a second attempt to stand, it would be a completion of the first. I guess you could set the trigger to after the person stands up, and that would effectively trip lock them for one round.
That what they were talking about, a readied action to trip after standing.
That. Ready an action to trip them if they do anything. Assuming the trip succeeds, they'll have their full round of actions but start from prone. It's no trip lock but it does keep them occupied and at poor effectiveness. If keeping them busy is more valuable than simply hurting them, it's not a bad tactic.
A caster hit by this would be better off staying prone and defensively casting--assuming they don't already have a magicky way out of the situation. A martial might simply trip back, grapple, or total defense + stand and eat the attacks of opportunity. Or if their to-hit is good enough, just stay prone and hack away.
Tripping them if the do anything wouldn't work as the trip attack would happen while they are prone. One wouldn't get to set the trigger as so broad and then change it to "after" they stand up.
At least that is how I would rule, but I concede to table variation.