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The description of a fire elemental includes the following:
A fire elemental cannot enter water or any other nonflammable liquid. A body of water is an impassible barrier unless the fire elemental can step or jump over it or the water is covered with a flammable material (such as a layer of oil).
So if a fire elemental is dropped into a pit of acid, what happens? It seems to me that the elemental is snuffed out, or extinguished and instantly dies. But the rules don't say that. It could boil away the acid, or it could just be stuck as it can not move to the side. Any thoughts, opinions, or especially specific rules to help on this one? It may start coming up a lot in our campaign.
That's...an interesting question, actually. I've never read that part of the entry so far.
But it seems to me that the elemental would be in fact "glued" to the acid, not taking damage because he is unable to enter it. As it weighs next to nothing for its size and does not have a heat aura or anything, it would probably be stuck there until someone builds it an oil bridge or something like that.
Is the acid flammable? If not, count as water and the elemental will be extinguised.
Hardwool wrote: the elemental would be in fact "glued" to the acid, not taking damage because he is unable to enter it. As it weighs next to nothing for its size and does not have a heat aura or anything, it would probably be stuck there until someone builds it an oil bridge or something like that. That's interesting. I had considered that the elemental was heavier than air, but lighter than water and thus floated, but then it should submerge slightly. But since it can't seem to swim, and magical effect like this could be an answer I would be okay with.
shadowkras wrote: Is the acid flammable? We have no way to know.
shadowkras wrote: If not, count as water and the elemental will be extinguised. AFAIK, there is no rule that says a fire elemental going under water is extinguished. All that is stated is that water is an impassable barrier.
Just apply acid damage as normal. If you really want the non flammable liquid to do something harmful give the fire elemental vulnerability to the acid for being immersed in it.
Yes there are no rules for it. So its GM ground here.
Acids, in general, are not flammable. Unless mixed with some other solution. So it still should be treated like water.
So, if the GM doesnt make the elemental be extinguished, he will need to apply fall damage as if the elemental was hitting the ground.
Melvin the Mediocre wrote: Hardwool wrote: the elemental would be in fact "glued" to the acid, not taking damage because he is unable to enter it. As it weighs next to nothing for its size and does not have a heat aura or anything, it would probably be stuck there until someone builds it an oil bridge or something like that. That's interesting. I had considered that the elemental was heavier than air, but lighter than water and thus floated, but then it should submerge slightly. But since it can't seem to swim, and magical effect like this could be an answer I would be okay with. Given that heat rises at that the elemental appears to be made up of flaming gases, I would have said the fire elemental would be lighter than air, but it doesn't have fly or hover. The PRD says that the weight for a fire elemental is:
Elemental Height Weight
Small 4 ft. 1 lb.
Medium 8 ft. 2 lbs.
Large 16 ft. 4 lbs.
Huge 32 ft. 8 lbs.
Greater 36 ft. 10 lbs.
Elder 40 ft. 12 lbs.
So it seems like it would sink unless it was unable to enter it (as Hardwool suggested). Liquid acid would boil, but I don't know enough about the acid in question or even how hot a fire elemental is to guess if the elemental could evaporate the acid (or how many rounds it would take). The fumes would be unpleasant (and possibly dangerous) and there might be spurts of liquid, so looking down into the pit to see if you took out the elemental wouldn't be a good idea.
I tend to think the elemental's inability to enter water is psychological, rather than a force field type effect--similar to if a sewer line broke near you--you would smell and see the discharge and not willing enter it, but an ogre (who is mean even for an ogre) could throw you in the discharge.
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Mechagamera wrote: The PRD says that the weight for a fire elemental is:
Elemental Height Weight
Small 4 ft. 1 lb.
Medium 8 ft. 2 lbs.
Large 16 ft. 4 lbs.
Huge 32 ft. 8 lbs.
Greater 36 ft. 10 lbs.
Elder 40 ft. 12 lbs.
So it seems like it would sink unless it was unable to enter it (as Hardwool suggested).
It won't sink. Those weights put the elemental as significantly lighter than water.
A fire elemental has a density somewhere in the neighborhood of 0.003 kg/m^3. An elder one probably doesn't fill the entire 40x40x40 foot block of space it takes up, but we can safely say that it's taking up 1/10th of that volume, raising the density of the elemental to 0.03, which is...lighter than Helium at 0.179...
EVEN! if the fire elemental only takes up a 4 foot cube (4x4x4) and the rest of its size is just combat mechanics / heat radiation that gets a density of 0.1875! Or only slightly denser than helium.
I'm pretty sure the elemental would just float on top of the surface of the liquid if dropped there and be "stuck" (per movement rules).
After reading all these posts, I think he would splash down in the acid, then bob back up like a cork dropped from the same height. Once there, he would be stuck, sitting or floating on the acid as he lacks enough weight to cause friction to swim. Since there is no way to know if a medium or small elemental is or is not adjacent to the wall, but a large one always will be, I think there needs to be no special ruling for this spell/enemy combo.
Thanks for all the feedback, it was entertaining to me.
Considering the fact that the elemental is lighter than air, the only reason you *can* even drop it, is because it doesn't have fly or hover or rules like it, even though it probably should.
Personally, I'd make it immune to falling damage and rule it stuck hovering above the acid. But even that makes little sense for a lighter-than-air creature.
Not sure if this has any weight in the topic at hand, but game-technically "entering an area" implies a conscious choice of movement; forced movement, such as, oh, I don't know, falling into a pit maybe, is rarely a conscious choice. This MIGHT circumvent the restriction. Older edition vampires, for instance, couldn't willingly cross running water, but nothing would stop you from throwing them over - or into - such a "barrier".
Other than that, it's an interesting conondrum that isn't properly/clearly covered by the rules. I'd personally put this one into the hands of the GM.
Naracamus wrote: Considering the fact that the elemental is lighter than air, the only reason you *can* even drop it, is because it doesn't have fly or hover or rules like it, even though it probably should.
Personally, I'd make it immune to falling damage and rule it stuck hovering above the acid. But even that makes little sense for a lighter-than-air creature.
It has weight, so it is heavier than air. I realize air has weight, but we consider all things' weight in relation to air. When you step on a scale, that scale is already calibrated to accept all the air that is currently pressing down on it.
To calculate and elemental's actual density is difficult as we know its space and reach, but not its actual volume. You might, if you ever managed to capture a fire elemental, be able to get its actual volume by a simple displacement test. However, the most common substance used to measure displacement is water, and the ability to place a fire elemental under water is currently under debate.
Melvin the Mediocre wrote: Naracamus wrote: Considering the fact that the elemental is lighter than air, the only reason you *can* even drop it, is because it doesn't have fly or hover or rules like it, even though it probably should.
Personally, I'd make it immune to falling damage and rule it stuck hovering above the acid. But even that makes little sense for a lighter-than-air creature.
It has weight, so it is heavier than air. I realize air has weight, but we consider all things' weight in relation to air. When you step on a scale, that scale is already calibrated to accept all the air that is currently pressing down on it.
To calculate and elemental's actual density is difficult as we know its space and reach, but not its actual volume. You might, if you ever managed to capture a fire elemental, be able to get its actual volume by a simple displacement test. However, the most common substance used to measure displacement is water, and the ability to place a fire elemental under water is currently under debate. However, by the book the fire elemental and air elemental both have the same height and weight statistics.
Melvin the Mediocre wrote: It has weight, so it is heavier than air. Um. A balloon with a volume of 1 cubic foot, filled with helium weighs 0.0114 pounds.
The only reason it floats away is because of the fact that the same volume of air is heavier and buoyancy occurs.
Interesting how this turned from a game-ruling question into a physics exercise :D
The rules are quiet on this. Let's see, if water actually dealt damage to a fire elemental, I would say it's dead, but at this point, it's going to at least be stuck.
The fire elemental would probably be stuck in place unless an outside force moved it. One thing that is for sure though is that it would boil the acid it is in contact with. This would create a gas that would be corrosive and dangerous for anyone near it. If left in place long enough it might fill a small room with the gas.
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