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kolyraut were CR 12 in 3rd edition not 15.
For some reason I had them pegged higher. I wonder if it was one of those 'same monster, two books' thing like the Narzugons. I remember there was a CR 7 narzugon with a stun gaze attack, and a CR 11 one that had a death gaze.
They still feel janky for their CR to me. I think its that regen is kind of intrinsically a tricky power since if you lack an immediate solution the creature becomes an ongoing problem.
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I'm still plumbing the depths of the ethical axis myself.
Are Inevitables and Proteans CR appropriate?
Proteans top out with the Keketar, a CR 17.
A bite+31, claw-claw+31, tail slap+29 full attack. The bite and claws inflicting the ever so wonderful warpwave (DC 28) effects and the tailslap having a grab attached and a constrict.
But he's also got all sorts of funky stuff going for him with his reshape reality ability (an unholy mixture of mirage arcana and shadow conjuration).
Also anyone teleporting up to within 30ft of him risks being temporally stasis'd per the spell or else 'just' nauseated on a successful save.
23HD, 32 AC, Freedom of Movement. 40ft fly with perfect maneuverability.
His SR is kind of pathetic for a CR 17 (Its just a 28). Prismatic Sphere 1/day. Prismatic Spray 1/day. 3 quickened confusions and of course...teleport.
Frankly, from my eyeballing, dude's a monster, just like he should be at the CR. He's literally a giant ball of randomly determined suck for anyone dealing with him, his amount of attacks and the high DC means that even a good fort guy is going to start eating warp wave and his amorphous trait means he's immune to sneak attacks or crits.
And unlike a fiend, he again has the benefit going for him that parties don't tend to load up on axiomatic weaponry any more then they load up with anarchic weaponry. The only part member who defacto hits him at full strength is the monk.
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Challenge Rating is down to GM discretion really. Yes, a mighty dragon the size of an aeroplane is not going to have a CR of 2 but (as I said in my previous post), certain races that you can play as (the ones in the advanced race guide I mean) are 'mutable' because a single goblin wearing just a loincloth and armed with only crudely made dagger is hardly a challenge (especially if the players are high level) but a small army of fetchlings bedecked in plate mail and equipped with finely made swords and shields is much more difficult (and thus the CR would be greatly increased).
There's a thing for that. Being severely under-equipped is -1 CR. PC-Wealth is +1 CR.
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And unlike a fiend, he again has the benefit going for him that parties don't tend to load up on axiomatic weaponry any more then they load up with anarchic weaponry. The only part member who defacto hits him at full strength is the monk.And anyone with a +5 weapon.
It has to be a /+5/ weapon though, not a +5 equivalency.
Your +2 Flaming Burst Vicious Human Bane Longsword's not getting through his DR. Nor the regen on the Inevitable. A holy avenger would though (although wouldn't get half its perks since he's not evil).
In fact, without genuinely aligning your weapon, you aren't permanently dispatching the Inevitable either, even with a +5. The +5 weapon just bypasses the DR, but doesn't count for type.
Which is why there is a nice level 2 spell called align weapon.
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Ever since my PFS cleric hit 15 I've made sure I have the Ioun Stone and Bead of Karma to get his caster level up to 20 for the morning buffs before tossing out Greater Magic Weapons and Magic Vestments.
Players I game with regularly know to provide pearls of power 4 and 3 if they want in on it +5 weapons and +5 armor/shields.
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Which is why there is a nice level 2 spell called align weapon.
Which in truth, they may or may not have memorized. A caster past level 3 can have align weapon, and a 17th level character could reasonably have a +4 anarchic inevitable bane warhammer or something.
But if a party of 17th level adventurers are just on a random adventure, and a keketar or kolyraut springs on them (17th level adventurers have probably done something to cheese off an inevitable, and maybe Tuesdays are Attack Adventurers Orange for the Keketar) out a clear blue sky when they were hunting for something else, its doubtful they have the necessary tools on hand.
Its actually easier in general, for a party to pull up holy or anti-evil flimflam then it is aligned flimflam. How many casters who aren't like intriniscally the Chaos guy or the Law guy (or have those as domains) pick up pro chaos or law, over say pro evil or pro good?
Again, my thing is anecdotal, but the paladin in the group I run for had a hell of a time with an imentesh, and he wasn't batting eyes at hamatulas at the time.
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This happened to my character last gaming session. A good deal of my problem can be chalked up to "betrayed by the dice" but it sure feels like this encounter carried an extremely steep penatly for such betrayal.
There is a grey ooze underwater ahead of the party (DC30 to spot).
I am on point but failed to spot it (18 on the dice +10) so I stumbled into it for an attack 2pts of acid damage that applies directly to gear unless a DC20 reflex save is made.
I failed the reflex save.
The ooze gets a free opportunity to grapple, which the DM rolled spectacularly on, so I am now grappled.
I then rolled on Knowledge: Dungeoneering but got a whopping 2 on the dice for a total of 11.
Restraining myself from using player knowledge, I attacked it normally--2 attacks while grappled with the dagger I happen to have in my hand already (we were wading through chest deep water so my greatsword is stowed).
Both attacks hit but of course I take acid damage unless I roll the reflex saves.
Failed both reflex saves so I take 8 more points of acid damage directly to my gear.
Then the ooze goes and deals 12 points of acid damage, no save this time since its the ooze's attack bringing me to a grand total of 22 points of acid damage.
I now know in character that I don't want to fight this thing in melee or let it grapple me so I break the grapple, move away and the rest of the party lays waste to the ooze.
The kicker? 22pts of acid damage is enough to destroy every single item my character has on her person except for a +2 mithral shirt which is "only" broken instead. Even better? I was carrying party treasure so that was destroyed as well. This means that a CR4 monster just took about 100 000gp worth of loot out of the party's hands over the course of 12 seconds.
Like I said, I rolled miserably for the entire encounter but jesus...I've only got +5 to reflex as a level 6 ranger so I was looking at a 75% chance of failure no matter what. Pair that with an extremely high spot DC and it sure seems like a bit much for CR4 IMHO.
Which is why there is a nice level 2 spell called align weapon.Which in truth, they may or may not have memorized. A caster past level 3 can have align weapon, and a 17th level character could reasonably have a +4 anarchic inevitable bane warhammer or something.
It's call a scroll. Or an oil. It's only 150 gp for the scroll, and 300 gp for the oil.
This happened to my character last gaming session. A good deal of my problem can be chalked up to "betrayed by the dice" but it sure feels like this encounter carried an extremely steep penatly for such betrayal.
There is a grey ooze underwater ahead of the party (DC30 to spot).
I am on point but failed to spot it (18 on the dice +10) so I stumbled into it for an attack 2pts of acid damage that applies directly to gear unless a DC20 reflex save is made.
I failed the reflex save.
The ooze gets a free opportunity to grapple, which the DM rolled spectacularly on, so I am now grappled.
I then rolled on Knowledge: Dungeoneering but got a whopping 2 on the dice for a total of 11.
Restraining myself from using player knowledge, I attacked it normally--2 attacks while grappled with the dagger I happen to have in my hand already (we were wading through chest deep water so my greatsword is stowed).
Both attacks hit but of course I take acid damage unless I roll the reflex saves.
Failed both reflex saves so I take 8 more points of acid damage directly to my gear.
Then the ooze goes and deals 12 points of acid damage, no save this time since its the ooze's attack bringing me to a grand total of 22 points of acid damage.
I now know in character that I don't want to fight this thing in melee or let it grapple me so I break the grapple, move away and the rest of the party lays waste to the ooze.
The kicker? 22pts of acid damage is enough to destroy every single item my character has on her person except for a +2 mithral shirt which is "only" broken instead. Even better? I was carrying party treasure so that was destroyed as well. This means that a CR4 monster just took about 100 000gp worth of loot out of the party's hands over the course of 12 seconds.
Like I said, I rolled miserably for the entire encounter but jesus...I've only got +5 to reflex as a level 6 ranger so I was looking at a 75% chance of failure no matter what. Pair that with an extremely high spot DC and it sure seems like a bit much...
The gray ooze's acid attacks say absolutely nothing about ignoring hardness or not otherwise following the standard rules for energy-based attacks against items.
The damage should have been cut in half, and then had hardness applied to it. Looks like you and your GM messed up.
A +3 Chaotic Outsider Bane weapon would punch that DR...but you don't see too many of those, either.
==Aelryinth
I think I love you, Ravingdork! I'm going to go back to my DM with this info and see what he says. Perhaps all my stuff is not kaput; looks like it will depend on the hardness if each item. I was waffling on whether or not to post this. Glad I decided to go the whiney-baby route hehe
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And unlike a fiend, he again has the benefit going for him that parties don't tend to load up on axiomatic weaponry any more then they load up with anarchic weaponry. The only part member who defacto hits him at full strength is the monk.And anyone with a +5 weapon.It has to be a /+5/ weapon though, not a +5 equivalency.
Your +2 Flaming Burst Vicious Human Bane Longsword's not getting through his DR. Nor the regen on the Inevitable. A holy avenger would though (although wouldn't get half its perks since he's not evil).
In fact, without genuinely aligning your weapon, you aren't permanently dispatching the Inevitable either, even with a +5. The +5 weapon just bypasses the DR, but doesn't count for type.
That's actually debatable. With the recent nerf to DR/Epic in Mythic Adventures, it could be that equivalency, not bonus, is what matters for DR now.
A type of damage reduction, DR/epic can be overcome only by a weapon with an enhancement bonus of +6 or greater. Weapons with special abilities also count as epic for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction if the total bonus value of all of their abilities (including the enhancement bonus) is +6 or greater.
The FAQ even goes so far as to say a +3 Bane weapon counts as +6 against the target of it's bane. I personally don't hold to this idea (and I completely disregard the equivalency bypass in Mythic Adventures), but I've seen this debate pop up on a few forums and comments in Facebook groups, blogs, YouTube etc.
Frankly, I think the 'equivalency' bypass for DR/Epic is really stupid and basically makes DR/Epic stupidly easy to bypass, whereas before, DR/Epic was an extremely good defense as only bane weapons, furious weapons, paladin smite and attacks from other 'Epic' creature bypassed it. It was the only DR that was still relevant in high level play but now it's childplay to bypass.
I think I love you, Ravingdork! I'm going to go back to my DM with this info and see what he says. Perhaps all my stuff is not kaput; looks like it will depend on the hardness if each item. I was waffling on whether or not to post this. Glad I decided to go the whiney-baby route hehe
Happy to have brightened up your day.
I think I love you, Ravingdork! I'm going to go back to my DM with this info and see what he says. Perhaps all my stuff is not kaput; looks like it will depend on the hardness if each item. I was waffling on whether or not to post this. Glad I decided to go the whiney-baby route heheHappy to have brightened up your day.
So I went back to my DM and we had a huge discussion on the nature of the grey ooze's acid, on whether or not it is a substance that is particularly good at dissolving equipment, therefore bypassing hardness and doing double damage. Double damage?? OUCH!! There goes my mithral shirt +2 as well if that's the case!
Anyway, out of pity I'm sure, he relented and allowed me to halve the elemental damage and apply hardness so things are a bit better. In the end though, I still lost my Cat Burglar's Boots, my Cloak of Resistance +1, my personal Handy Haversack and the Bag of Holding with the entirety of party treasure inside. A mere 80 000gp hit instead of the original 100k'ish. Still pretty brutal for an encounter with a CR4 creature if you ask me and there are compelling reasons why the "particularly good at dissolving stuff" interpretation is actually the correct if not heinously cruel interpretation.
Um, where did sharp objects pierce this bag and haversack of yours? I only saw acid damage.
It only ruptures and loses contents if sharp objects pierce it.
Acid damage isn't piercing from a sharp object.
What likely happened is all the stuff started spilling out as the bag was slowly eaten away.
Get your DM's ruling of course, but the language is clear...only sharp objects pop it. There's a zillion ways to destroy the bag, and only that one loses everything.
==Aelryinth
"If a bag of holding is overloaded, or if sharp objects pierce it (from inside or outside), the bag immediately ruptures and is ruined, and all contents are lost forever."
There is nothing that addresses what happens if the bag is destroyed by acid but I'm OK with my DM's extrapolation that, when the bag is ruined by any means, all contents are lost forever.
It's possible that grey ooze is not as nasty as it seems to me given this horrible encounter but I don't think it's DM error giving me this incorrect impression if that is the case. I think his decisions are reasonable readings of the rules and, although I was unaware of the rules RD quoted about elemental damage to objects, my DM wasn't. He had settled on the more severe but valid interpretation that the creature's description is an exception to the general rule. I consider myself lucky that I was able to convince him to go with RD instead. Like I said, I think he regretted taking so much from us.
Maybe I will approach him again with your position Aelryinth but we read that as a group and all 7 of us took it to mean any kind of destruction. Let's see how bad he really feels...
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Er, per the gray oozes description the acid damage only applies to your armor or clothing. Also, each packet of incoming damage is handled individually, so:
First attack: you take 2, armor/clothing takes 1, minus hardness.
Second : you take 8, armor/clothing takes 4, minus hardness.
Third: you take 12, armor/clothing takes 6, minus hardness.
So really your boots and cloak are still probably toast, since cloth doesn't really have hardness. Your armor is likely untouched. I don't see how the bag and haversack even took damage.
Er, per the gray oozes description the acid damage only applies to your armor or clothing. Also, each packet of incoming damage is handled individually, so:
First attack: you take 2, armor/clothing takes 1, minus hardness.
Second : you take 8, armor/clothing takes 4, minus hardness.
Third: you take 12, armor/clothing takes 6, minus hardness.So really your boots and cloak are still probably toast, since cloth doesn't really have hardness. Your armor is likely untouched. I don't see how the bag and haversack even took damage.
Ryric, the bags are made of cloth and cloth items takes damage from the acid, unless you are contending that clothing is somehow different from other items made of cloth. I don't think I'll have much luck with that position no matter how guilty the DM is feeling.
The ooze dissolves metals and organic materials. What is a Bag of Holding or Handy Haversack if not an organic material?
Er, per the gray oozes description the acid damage only applies to your armor or clothing.
And even then, only when it grapples you, and you fail a save.
For reference:
Wooden or metal weapons also take damage, but only when used to attack the ooze directly.
The ooze also deals 12 points of acid damage to wooden and metal objects per full round of exposure to its...oozy touch.
Yeah, I'm not sure how you'd lose that bag either.
As per my original post on the matter, I was totally grappled and totally failed all the saves. I rolled miserably throughout the entire encounter. I attacked the ooze directly with my dagger. I took 12 pts damage from the oozy touch. This is what destroyed most of my stuff. It's not as bad as it started out but it's still pretty bad.
Listen guys, I really appreciate your assistance but now you just want my DM to be wrong. I want my DM to be wrong too. I don't really see that he is. Thanks for your support though :)
Now, gelatinous clerics... what god would they worship?
While many oozes mindlessly follow the Faceless Lord in his abyssal stew of a pit, there is one true path for cubes. Primus is the perfect law for cubes.
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I don't think we're trying to dogpile on your GM, we're just pointing out that the monster run as written doesn't quite have that level of power. The acid ability description says it damages armor and clothing, not all items made of cloth. Sure if the ooze was brought into contact with your cloth or leather containers it would damage them, but as written that doesn't happen just from being hit or grappled. That's all we're saying.
Since you were proposing that the ooze was too powerful for its CR, we're pointing out that RAW the ooze isn't quite as nasty as your experience makes it out to be. If you and your GM are at a happy accord then game on.
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YMMV but I would consider a worn haversack to qualify as clothing.
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Listen guys, I really appreciate your assistance but now you just want my DM to be wrong.
Wha!? Where did that come from?
Witchfires. Incorp undead and devastating ranged attack.
Humanoids with NPC warrior levels. A Gnoll Warrior/10 is CR 5.
Succubi are famous for their CR having a nigh-unbeatable save DC against Charm Monster.
==Aelryinth
It is because pathfider screwed up add class level section form 3.5 to pathfinder. I used to be 1/2 CR for NPC or nonacciated class level till get 1 more that racial HD. It dose not make since that Human warrior level 10 is CR 8 while Gnoll warrior level 10 is CR 6. Gnoll is CR 1 pluss 1/2 10 warrior is 5 so 5+1 is 6.
As per my original post on the matter, I was totally grappled and totally failed all the saves. I rolled miserably throughout the entire encounter. I attacked the ooze directly with my dagger. I took 12 pts damage from the oozy touch. This is what destroyed most of my stuff. It's not as bad as it started out but it's still pretty bad.
Listen guys, I really appreciate your assistance but now you just want my DM to be wrong. I want my DM to be wrong too. I don't really see that he is. Thanks for your support though :)
But he was...
Witchfires. Incorp undead and devastating ranged attack.
Humanoids with NPC warrior levels. A Gnoll Warrior/10 is CR 5.
Succubi are famous for their CR having a nigh-unbeatable save DC against Charm Monster.
==Aelryinth
It is because pathfider screwed up add class level section form 3.5 to pathfinder. I used to be 1/2 CR for NPC or nonacciated class level till get 1 more that racial HD. It dose not make since that Human warrior level 10 is CR 8 while Gnoll warrior level 10 is CR 6. Gnoll is CR 1 pluss 1/2 10 warrior is 5 so 5+1 is 6.
A 10th level human warrior is not CR 8. That's a sick joke. CR 6 is much closer. Hit dice are not an adequate representation of power. For example, a Green Hag has 9 HD, but is CR 5. By your suggestion, you could add 8 levels onto the hag, at a discounted rate, while in Pathfinder you could only add +4 levels onto her before you started having to raise her CR significantly.
So in 3.5, you'd be giving the hag 4th level spells for +4 CR, and in Pathfinder you'd only be giving her 2nd-3rd level spells for the same levels.
Even then, NPC levels were still always considered unassociated. Which meant that while adding lots of heroic levels to an NPC was cheaper for the same CR, NPC classes weren't any different. So a 10th level gnoll warrior was still CR 6. It's just that you could also chuck a level of ranger on a gnoll more or less for free since gnolls had 2 HD.
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An under CRd monster that came up earlier:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/seugathi
CR6.
It's a weird one. It lives underground, so it should be in pitch darkness. It has no Deeper Darkness however, odd, given it has Tremorsense. In any case, it has Darkvision 120 and Detect Thoughts, and is unaffected by Mind Affecting, so it should be able to hide in the darkness. It has Perception +15. It will then cast its Mind Fog, which moves towards the PCs, afterwards in close range its Aura of Madness and Confusion Command should make the party kill each other.
It's not physically amazing, but it can probably TPK without being noticed. It has Phantasmal Killer too, which it casts after Mind Fog.
It's a strange creature. Very powerful for its level.
It has a couple of odd abilities though. It has Confusion as a SLA 3/day at a lower DC to its permanent aura, which is a waste. It has Levitate which undoes the use of Tremorsense.
It also only speak Aklo and Undercommon. I thought this would affect its Telepathy and Confusion Command, but apparently not. If you wanted to reign in that ability you might use that, so it focuses on Drow and Sfivneblim.
However, I don't see how a level 4 Fighter for example can get close enough to hit it. If he does, the guy is not a great melee combatant, but it won't come to that.
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Also Orcs. Massively under CR. I have had a guy die with one shot in the first round of his first ever level 1 battle. As he was the Paladin, the three Orcs swiftly murdered everyone else hiding behind him.
That seugathi is well known to not match up well.
Also Orcs. Massively under CR. I have had a guy die with one shot in the first round of his first ever level 1 battle. As he was the Paladin, the three Orcs swiftly murdered everyone else hiding behind him.
Yeah, Orcs are pretty awesome for CR 1/3 creatures. 2d4+4 is enough damage potential to one hit d8 HD classes without rolling a crit. Also, while the bestiary says they only have 6 hitpoints (or whatever you roll), but ferocity means that they practically have 18.
I hate the "swarms of fine/diminutive creatures are immune to weapon damage" bit. They should just have DR or something. I mean, a fighter can kill an air elemental (which is made of gas) with a sword but not a swarm of six-inch-long killer roaches?
They could have made the fire, water, and air elementals different, but I think the idea was to keep them the same for ease of categorizing them so they are all solid.
I was looking at the Cyclops on the SRD, and I think it's a bit under-CRed, simply because it has a 1/day ability to insta-kill most level 5 PCs if they roll a 20.
1: they have a special ability to, once a day, dictate a die-roll they make. Like a crit confirmation.
2: They're armed with an axe that does 3d6+7 damage, with a x3 crit multiplier. By my math, that's _average_ damage on a crit of about 52 points, which means unless whoever they hit has MORE than 10 HP per level, they're down, and quote possibly dead. And they get two attacks a turn.It seems a bit excessive.
Why would they wait for a natural 20? The Cyclops should just choose a natural 20 with Flash of Insight, then roll to confirm. Even with the -2 to attack rolls from using Power Attack, they've got a good chance of confirming. With Power Attack, that's an average of 70.5 damage.
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Shadow Demons are very very tough for CR7. Incorporeal + DR is just a rough combo. Very few parties at that point have a weapon that's both magical and cold iron, and if they do there's probably just one so the demon can easily focus fire. Oh plus it resists or is immune to most energy types as well, and has SR. Just tough at level 7.My DM was not thinking and had us fight one at 5th level. Talk about brutal.
There is a reason why most of my characters don't go anywhere with out a cold iron dagger and a oil of bless weapon and magic weapon.
Banshee, geez
Most everything incorporeal should have a pretty big asterisk next to it.
Charisma based Casters with the Ghost Template.
I am raising this thread from the dead to see if anyone has new ideas of under CRd monsters after seeing the Beastiary 5.