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Hi all,
Our GM wants us to run the Superdungeon as a party of three, but we are worried about character and level progression.
We have been doing Rise of the Runelords as a party of three and have run into severe power issues at level 10. We seem to be lacking the challenge rating as a party, so we are looking into the mythic tiers to help us for the Superdungeon.
I would like to know if this would make the party completely overpowered? We are unsure how to bridge the obvious gap that has happened with RotR. Gaining additional XP from having one person less hasn't really helped.
Suggested adjustments below:
Level/Superdungeon CR/Party CR
01/02/01.5
02/04/03
03/08/06 (Mythic T01 would make the party CR 7.5)
04/12/09 (Mythic T02 would make the party CR 12)
05/16/12 (Mythic T02 would make the party CR 15)
06/20/15 (Mythic T03 would make the party CR 19.5)
..../..../....
+2/+8/+3 (Mythic T+1 to match/near-match Superdungeon CR)
Hi all,
Our GM wants us to run the Superdungeon as a party of three, but we are worried about character and level progression.
We have been doing Rise of the Runelords as a party of three and have run into severe power issues at level 10. We seem to be lacking the challenge rating as a party, so we are looking into the mythic tiers to help us for the Superdungeon.
I would like to know if this would make the party completely overpowered? We are unsure how to bridge the obvious gap that has happened with RotR. Gaining additional XP from having one person less hasn't really helped.
I currently run the dungeon for a party of three players, two of whom are not really min-maxers. They have reached dungeon level 7, using Point Buy 20.
First of all: it was my impression that the dungeon is pretty harsh. Several things on the first levels can kill a character pretty quickly (level 5 can be especially dicey) regardless of the number of characters in the party. I suggested to the players that they create back-up characters before we started.
That being said: I didn't change much regarding the challenges. While I managed to kill two characters already, one was due to a mistake of mine.
I recommend running the first, maybe even the second level without any adjustments and see how the party does.
Applying CR to APL is an art, not a science. Various creatures with the same CR vary in power.
PB 15 is a bit on the weak side, though. Combined with that party composition, I'd suggest creating back-up characters
As above, we were looking at running the Superdungeon as-is until level 3, and then take a rain check on how we are faring...
I have looked into the Gamemastery section of the CRB and it handily says that our APL should have one subtracted from it because we only have three PCs. Once we get to around 45k Superdungeon XP (level 6 for 3 players), our APL matches the APL of a four-player group better than half the time.
Our GM has said enforced 15-point buy, and was tentative about having PCs with over 20RP. We've agreed on our group: a LN Wyvaran Warpriest, a Human Antipaladin, and me, a Sylph Arcanist.
A possible house rule that could help a small party is to change Summon spells from rounds/lvl to 10min/lvl, This way it will still cost you ressources (spell slots), but you will always have some meat shield and additional actions available.
Otherwise maybe, you can all start with level 2 and always be one character level above suggested|
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Applying CR to APL is an art, not a science. Various creatures with the same CR vary in power.
PB 15 is a bit on the weak side, though. Combined with that party composition, I'd suggest creating back-up characters
After some discussion and research, we're switching around our ability scores:
*Point Buy 20
*No ability score lower than 10 after racials
*No ability score at 20 after racials
*Mythic tiers granted at the GM's discretion, starting at level 3 at the absolute earliestI'm expecting the Antipaladin to change class/race again as well; however, all this did was raise the Warpriest's Cha from 7 to 11.
Sounds fair. Can't say I'm all that optimistic seeing an antipaladin listed as one of the PCs, given that this is Hellknight territory.
Sounds fair. Can't say I'm all that optimistic seeing an antipaladin listed as one of the PCs, given that this is Hellknight territory.
If the antipaladin is taking the tyrant archetype, they should fit in just fine...
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Sounds fair. Can't say I'm all that optimistic seeing an antipaladin listed as one of the PCs, given that this is Hellknight territory.If the antipaladin is taking the tyrant archetype, they should fit in just fine...
I guess it just depends on the kind of antipaladin. Wasn't made clear, hence the reaction.
My players finished level 6 successfully, although both Klarkosh and the minotaur brought one player to negative hp.
Now I'm looking at level 7 and I'm interested in your experience with that final fight. My group is the opposite of stealthy having a paladin among them and Sartoss will obviously fortify himself together with Sanaz. Together they make up a very dangerous team. I imagine that a DC 20 Dominate on the party witch will quickly end the fight with everyone asleep. Sartoss will not want to kill everyone, because they'd make great minions to send down, but won't shun it either.
tldr; the shrine of the awakener is a potential tpk for a party of lvl 6, isn't it?
That depends on how quickly the paladin can get to Sartoss. He didn't last 3 rounds in my campaign. Sanaz took much longer, because she's harder to hit.
My party just got split up at the beginning of level 8. Dispelled magical traps stay dispelled, right?
How are his stats (Str 10, Dex 20, Con 19, Int 18, Wis 19, Cha 20) calculated? Serpentfolk start with Str 8, Dex 21, Con 17, Int 18, Wis 15, Cha 16 and get +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, and –2 from added class levels plus +1 from level 4.
And why is Sartoss CR 6, when a Serpentfolk is already 4 and 4 levels of cleric at NPC wealth add 3?
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How are his stats (Str 10, Dex 20, Con 19, Int 18, Wis 19, Cha 20) calculated? Serpentfolk start with Str 8, Dex 21, Con 17, Int 18, Wis 15, Cha 16 and get +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, and –2 from added class levels plus +1 from level 4.
And why is Sartoss CR 6, when a Serpentfolk is already 4 and 4 levels of cleric at NPC wealth add 3?
Str +2, Dex -2 (-2+1 from Cleric 4), Con +2, Int +0, Wis +4, Cha +4.
Cleric isn't a key class for serpentfolk so it's +1 CR/2 levels.
The math is sound.
Str +2, Dex -2 (-2+1 from Cleric 4), Con +2, Int +0, Wis +4, Cha +4.
found my mistake.
Cleric isn't a key class for serpentfolk so it's +1 CR/2 levels.
Thank you, didn't know this.
Ok so, Sartoss + his snake + Sanaz would be something like a CR 9.5 encounter. So more than epic for a 6th level party. I'm looking forward to that Oo
Question for anyone that has GMed this module. I'm about to start this in a week or two, and some of my players Andrew in love with Psionics and Path of war.
Would it be too much for balance to let in these options?
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I can't speak for Path of War, but Dreamscarred Press's Psionics is definitely balanced. The pc may be able to single-handedly deal with an encounter once (and he might need to), but will probably be suffering from a lack of power points afterwards.
The most important rule to remember is that psionic characters cannot spend more power points on any one power than their manifester level.
It has been quite deadly so far, so PoW wouldn't be too strong early on. Just don't mix with core martials, so nobody feels underpowered.
So does anything happen really with the story if the players side with the seven foxes or the hellknights? It seems weird to give the players a quest that might turn the town upside down and then do nothing with it.
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In the Tomb of Yarrix, there is a forbiddance spell in place which the module describes as "warding the entire level." The spell description of forbiddance states that it "seals an area against all planar travel into or within it. This includes all teleportation spells (such as dimension door and teleport), plane shifting, astral travel, ethereal travel, and all summoning spells. Such effects simply fail automatically."
Yet, there are several summoning devices and/or the trap which relies on teleportation as a means of escape. The description in the module states the spell is there to prevent Yarrix and her cronies from leaving, but does the foriddance spell prevent summoning and/or teleportation within the level itself (as the spell's description states.)
In the Tomb of Yarrix, there is a forbiddance spell in place which the module describes as "warding the entire level." The spell description of forbiddance states that it "seals an area against all planar travel into or within it. This includes all teleportation spells (such as dimension door and teleport), plane shifting, astral travel, ethereal travel, and all summoning spells. Such effects simply fail automatically."
Yet, there are several summoning devices and/or the trap which relies on teleportation as a means of escape. The description in the module states the spell is there to prevent Yarrix and her cronies from leaving, but does the foriddance spell prevent summoning and/or teleportation within the level itself (as the spell's description states.)
The magical protections on the door have deteriorated over time anyway. Maybe that allows for the exceptions?
I have a question re Level 9, which I'll put behind a spoiler tag.
I have a question re Level 9, which I'll put behind a spoiler tag.
** spoiler omitted **
In the Tomb of Yarrix, there is a forbiddance spell in place which the module describes as "warding the entire level." The spell description of forbiddance states that it "seals an area against all planar travel into or within it. This includes all teleportation spells (such as dimension door and teleport), plane shifting, astral travel, ethereal travel, and all summoning spells. Such effects simply fail automatically."
Yet, there are several summoning devices and/or the trap which relies on teleportation as a means of escape. The description in the module states the spell is there to prevent Yarrix and her cronies from leaving, but does the foriddance spell prevent summoning and/or teleportation within the level itself (as the spell's description states.)
It does seem to be an oversight. One solution say that the Forbiddance spell is a variant which does not prohibit teleportation/conjuration in its dimensions.
With regards to the time-warp trap, I think you could hand-waive it and say that teleport and dimension door within the tomb itself are not leaving the tomb for the purposes of Forbiddance, and as such do not trigger the spell. The time-warp dimension is entirely within the Forbiddance zone.
With regards to the summoning, you could argue that the shadowfire elementals are already in the the trap area, and are simply contained in pocket dimensions that expel them when the trap is triggered. Again, hand waiving it so it's not a conjuration effect.
You could also play it straight, damaging the shadowfire elementals as they spring up, but also taking away useful tools from the PCs.
Question regarding the dragons' hoard on the Magma Level...
...they are at a higher level than usual and Mythic, so I have adjusting things to challenge them, so don't be afraid of bringing out the big guns!
I love the Emerald Spire and especially when it throws curve balls at you, like a party having access to things like this!
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I'd say that there are outsiders of all kinds whose task it is to continuously scry for copies, so celestials as well as fiends would come for your PCs. For example, the Great Library of Harmonious Scripture in Heaven stores and destroys items of great power.
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Cool idea! Especially as my party are mostly proud of their neutrality!
And lol...I just realised, first things sent might be a strike team of retrievers!
I've read pretty much everything here, and I'm thrilled there's so much.
I was hoping one or more of you had gone through Thornkeep as well, since I'm currently running my players through that before setting them on to the Spire.
It's been more than a week since I posted for help about a specific floor in Thornkeep's dungeon here with no response, so I thought getting some eyes in here on the issues would help.
I'm particularly concerned with the Togarin paradox... paradox.
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Hi everyone !
I stumble upon this message board just before starting my campaign, and I have to say that it was really helpful to read all of your interventions.
I'm DMing an open campaign in the Echoes Wood, combining The Emerald Spire and Thornkeep. I have a group of 5 players, and we started as a Pathfinder Society group of characters, sent from Absalom to collect as much as informations about the region and the Emerald Spire as possible.
I added a lot of subquests and encounters, and gave the choice to my players to set up in Fort-Inevitable or Thornkeep. They chose Fort-Inevitable to be safe from bandits and outlaws, and rapidly discovered what was the price to pay for it (I kept the tax, and my players were searched every time they entered or exited the city).
With all the new quests and content I added, I agreed with my players that we would use xp tracking with medium progression (despite the fact that they are 5, I am very generous with quests xp and I reward my players when they succeed to avoid a combat as much as if they killed the creatures).
But... Everything went realy bad when they reached the drowned level at level 3. They tried to negociate with Jorqual several times, and he violently refuses, attacking to make them flee (I like the idea that his sisters and himself are threatened by Klarkosh and that he really cares for them but doesn't want to admit it. So he simply states that visitors will only slow his researches down). After my players insisted so much, he played with their naivete and trap them all in an ambush (after all, he is chaotic). And this is were it went horribly wrong : my players weren't prepared, the witch was in the front line with his pet, and 3 out of 5 characters died to the claws of the eidolon, leaving the 2 left flee up to the troglodytes level with no escape plan. Because they had bargained their way through splinters den (the bandits are waiting for them to go back up to kill them and rob them) and because they lost their only token in the drowned level, they were stuck with the troglodytes...
So here we are, with a whole new group of refugees from Druma, going after a traitor gnome who sold them to the government. They tracked him down to Thornkeep, and learnt that he went to the Spire a day before they arrived. And after the last session, my players caught up with their other PCs progression in the spire and killed every splinter before finding out the hidden passage to the surface. With this new group, I use a milestone type of progression (they began level 3, and they just leveled up to 4 before entering the Spire). One of the 2 surviving old PCs was a rogue, and she decided to join the splinters when the rest of the group died... So the new PCs had to kill her ! And because she also kill one of them in the fight... The last PC of the earlier group will return when they will actually find him desperate with the troglodytes.
For the next sessions, I plan on using Dragonchess Player's stat block for Klarkosh, which I adore. It only misses Command Undead in the spellbook, but otherwise it is perfect (Klarkosh uses it every week -or 6 days now- to control Gorloth).
Thanks for everything you shared !
(And as I'm french and use the french version of the module, I hope I got all the names correct !)
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@HWalsh, I just want you to be aware that your rants come off sounding like your personal idea of RPG fun = predictable, expected, easy. I don't know if that's what you were trying to convey or not, but from the specificity of your complaints, that's what it sounds like. There are going to be a lot of people on the boards that completely disagree with that definition of fun. Myself being one. There are many ways to work around/overcome the difficulties presented in this dungeon for a player with an open mind, not hemmed in by the "this is what usually happens" box. I found overcoming the challenges on level one of this dungeon very fun indeed.
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@HWalsh, I just want you to be aware that your rants come off sounding like your personal idea of RPG fun = predictable, expected, easy. I don't know if that's what you were trying to convey or not, but from the specificity of your complaints, that's what it sounds like. There are going to be a lot of people on the boards that completely disagree with that definition of fun. Myself being one. There are many ways to work around/overcome the difficulties presented in this dungeon for a player with an open mind, not hemmed in by the "this is what usually happens" box. I found overcoming the challenges on level one of this dungeon very fun indeed.
I agree with HWalsh. And I would love to read a spoiler tagged write up of this "work around/overcome the difficulties". As someone who's played this once and ran it seven times, including Core, I've yet to see a group find a single way around this dungeon at level 1 or level 2, short of insider information letting them know to a darkvision race, or getting enough money to buy a potion of darkvision. The closest I've seen was someone took Blind-Fight ahead of time, but again they have insider information. I've heard of PFS GMs be banned for "helping players". I've even seen and heard of TPKs.
Sadly, HWalsh, unless it was PFS, your GM likely ran things properly. We lost people too.
The first scenario can take 30 minutes or 6 hours depending on whether or not you've got a way to move through the darkness or not.
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I agree with HWalsh. And I would love to read a spoiler tagged write up of this "work around/overcome the difficulties".
The Order of the Amber Die guys did it as written, and survived. You can easily read about that in the forums here. I ran it twice, and while it was difficult, my players quickly figured out how to drop torches everywhere to get around not being able to see (one player could see, but he was a wizard). It was hard, but not unbearably so. They had to leave and come back several times. The water level was more difficult, IMO.
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The Order of the Amber Die guys did it as written, and survived. You can easily read about that in the forums here. I ran it twice, and while it was difficult, my players quickly figured out how to drop torches everywhere to get around not being able to see (one player could see, but he was a wizard). It was hard, but not unbearably so. They had to leave and come back several times. The water level was more difficult, IMO.
In PFS, the second anyone left the GM was supposed to call the game and the players lost. Said that was the rules and the VL enforced it. So you to tough it out or die trying. Honestly, the fourth level is considered the most difficult by the three groups we had run through.
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I agree with HWalsh. And I would love to read a spoiler tagged write up of this "work around/overcome the difficulties".** spoiler omitted **
So basically, ran as an adventure path with a flexible GM it’s possible. Unfortunately, that stuff doesn’t fly in PFS or with GMs that need to have things laid out for them in the book before you can even ask to blow your nose.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Hi, kevin.
I've run the first two levels of Emerald Spire as a Pathfinder Society GM. There are no PFS rules against parties retreating, planning, and returning. Honest.
The GM in question might have been thinking about another dungeon, a challenge event where there are such rules.
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So basically, ran as an adventure path with a flexible GM it’s possible. Unfortunately, that stuff doesn’t fly in PFS or with GMs that need to have things laid out for them in the book before you can even ask to blow your nose.
I agree with HWalsh. And I would love to read a spoiler tagged write up of this "work around/overcome the difficulties".** spoiler omitted **
You made me laugh. I've never had the displeasure of a GM like that, but I have heard stories about them. Sorry that was your experience, but, as you just pointed out, the problem seems much more to have been the GM than the material itself. :) Hopefully your new year is filled with much more fun gaming. :)
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Hi, kevin.
I've run the first two levels of Emerald Spire as a Pathfinder Society GM. There are no PFS rules against parties retreating, planning, and returning. Honest.
The GM in question might have been thinking about another dungeon, a challenge event where there are such rules.
When I've ran it, I've never called it quits when the players need to resupply. I've let players go back to town. The GM and VL in question say it's iron clad. That modules are just like scenarios. If you "quit" it's game over. Leaving the dungeon counts as such. I'm considered too lenient and called on a few things because of it.
You made me laugh. I've never had the displeasure of a GM like that, but I have heard stories about them. Sorry that was your experience, but, as you just pointed out, the problem seems much more to have been the GM than the material itself. :) Hopefully your new year is filled with much more fun gaming. :)
I hope so. I know I've talked to other VC's and VL's, and they've questioned how our games are ran.
That said, the first scenario is still very difficult compared to others later on, and none of the other levels have the same unfairness with darkness.
The Order of the Amber Die guys did it as written, and survived. You can easily read about that in the forums here. I ran it twice, and while it was difficult, my players quickly figured out how to drop torches everywhere to get around not being able to see (one player could see, but he was a wizard). It was hard, but not unbearably so. They had to leave and come back several times. The water level was more difficult, IMO.In PFS, the second anyone left the GM was supposed to call the game and the players lost. Said that was the rules and the VL enforced it. So you to tough it out or die trying. Honestly, the fourth level is considered the most difficult by the three groups we had run through.
There's an entire exposition about all of the tunnels that lead back to the surface as well as how to deal with trade in the town. The GM in question did not know what he was talking about.
Sheesh, I didn't kill anyone in this one. In fact, the only character I've ever killed was a GMPC I had to run in Ire of the Storm, in the fort at the beginning. Damned swarms... argh.
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There's an entire exposition about all of the tunnels that lead back to the surface as well as how to deal with trade in the town. The GM in question did not know what he was talking about.
The VL was 100% on the GM's side. He actually told the GM how it's supposed to work. He and the GM have been running things like that from the beginning.
Sheesh, I didn't kill anyone in this one. In fact, the only character I've ever killed was a GMPC I had to run in Ire of the Storm, in the fort at the beginning. Damned swarms... argh.
Lucky you. Our lodge has seen three TPKs in Core and standard. One in level 1, one in level 3, and one in level 4.
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@HWalsh Your experience is the complete opposite of mine despite the fact that we went in under basically the same situation. I was playing a human barbarian and because of the special darkness effect I could only see 5 feet the entire time.
And I had an absolute blast. The entire time I was dependant on my party members calling out where enemies were and just running blindly in that direction and hitting things as I nearly stumbled into them. Made for amazing roleplay and an incredibly memorable session.
The VL was 100% on the GM's side. He actually told the GM how it's supposed to work. He and the GM have been running things like that from the beginning.
Then the VL sucks, too. At the end of the day, it's about having fun. This is a fun module. The only thing I don't really like is the fast XP track.
Lucky you. Our lodge has seen three TPKs in Core and standard. One in level 1, one in level 3, and one in level 4.
I'm kind of a wimp as a GM. Things will be different for CoCT (we start tomorrow at noon). I've modified it to medium XP, btw. I suspect things will be different for Ironfang Invasion, too (we start in February). I let Giantslayer get out of hand, and have learned from that.
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I've run Emerald Spire on Roll20 in the past and used the ambient lighting effect there so PCs without darkvision had literally no idea what was going on around them. We thought it was great fun since it meant they had to rely on PCs with darkvision to direct them: "There's a goblin 15 feet to your left! No, your other left!" Needless to say it made for some awesome roleplaying and was a good bonding experience - like a trust fall, but with horse choppers. :)
I can imagine things would have played out differently if none of the PCs had darkvision, but I've never had that happen - it's been my experience that people tend to pick races that thrive underground when they play Emerald Spire. However, there are some decent solutions available for crafty players. The darkness effect doesn't fully negate light, it just limits the lighting effect to a 5-foot radius. That means if you throw a torch, it'll light up both the square it lands in and the eight squares around it. A spellcaster can use the Dancing Lights cantrip to very good use indeed! He can move them around at 100 feet as a free action, so he can do a scan of the entire room and leave literal spotlights at enemy locations.
All that said, I have speculated in the past that the effect may have been put to better use if it wasn't the first thing the players encounter when they go to the spire - it's pretty discouraging for newbie players that don't have darkvision and don't work out how to counter it. I still wonder if it might have been more appropriate for level 2 or 3, when the players have gotten a bit more experience.
@Hwalsh
What was the 1D6 per round trap?
I'm going to assume the net trap.
Maybe, but the net traps are on level 2, and near as I can tell Hwalsh never made it past level 1. Also the net would only deal damage once, not 1D6/round. Maybe they triggered the rockfall and got the "buried alive" rules wrong?
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I'm going to assume the net trap.Maybe, but the net traps are on level 2, and near as I can tell Hwalsh never made it past level 1. Also the net would only deal damage once, not 1D6/round. Maybe they triggered the rockfall and got the "buried alive" rules wrong?
Re-reading it and looking up the rules in Core, it should be 1d6 nonlethal/minute. So yeah, definitely done wrong. Granted, it takes a number of minutes to clear the rubble. Still, that's nowhere near per round.
Things will be different for CoCT (we start tomorrow at noon). I've modified it to medium XP, btw.Wait, what? It's not? That's interesting, and makes little sense. What track does it use? Slow?
Fast. Basically one level per 4-6 hours of gaming. I don't like it.