Sorcerer build advice / feedback (spells known and feats)


Advice


I am making plans on building a sorcerer all the way from lvl 1 to lvl 20.
I would like some feedback from you guys whether my spells known and feat choices are good as far as optimization and flavor are concerned. I am trying to be as versatile as possible. This will be a human Sorcerer with the Sage bloodline, and I will be taking 20 extra spells known for a favored class benefit at every level. Thanks in advance! :)

lvl 1: Detect Magic, Read Magic, Light, Prestidigitation, Acid Splash, Mage Armor, Burning Hands - Eschew Materials, Improved Initiative, Toughness.

lvl 2: Message, Ghost Sound.

lvl 3: Open/Close, Identify (bloodline spell), Grease - Combat Casting.

lvl 4: Mage Hand, Charm Person, Web.

lvl 5: Shield, Ray of Enfeeblement, Invisibility (bloodline spell), Mirror Image - Extend Spell.

lvl 6: Touch of Fatigue, Alter Self, Haste.

lvl 7: Feather Fall, Resist Energy, Glitterdust, Dispel Magic (bloodline spell), Fireball - Still Spell (bloodline feat), Silent Spell.

lvl 8: Spark, Fly, Confusion.

lvl 9: Haunting Mists, Slow, Arcane Eye, Magic Circle against Evil, Dimension Door (bloodline spell), Dragon's Breath - Empower Spell.

lvl 10: Mending, Enervation, Teleport.

lvl 11: Minor Image, Stinking Cloud, Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, Acid Pit, Overland Flight (bloodline spell), Communal Stoneskin - Selective Spell.

lvl 12: Wall of Stone, Greater Heroism.

lvl 13: Greater Invisibility, Break Enchantment, Telekinesis, True Seeing (bloodline spell), Contingency, Disintegrate - Spell Focus (Evocation) (bloodline feat), Quicken Spell.

lvl 14: Greater Dispel Magic, Waves of Exhaustion.

lvl 15: Dominate Person, Repulsion, Permanent Image, Greater Teleport (bloodline spell), Summon Monster VII - Spell Perfection (Dragon's Breath).

lvl 16: Project Image, Maze.

lvl 17: Caustic Eruption, Plane Shift, Power Word Stun (bloodline spell), Mind Blank, Moment of Prescience - Spell Penetration.

lvl 18: Polymorph Any Object, Time Stop.

lvl 19: Prismatic Wall, Mass Charm Monster, Wish (bloodline spell), Prismatic Sphere - Iron Will (bloodline feat), Persistent Spell.

lvl 20: Stormbolts, Mage's Disjunction.

Dark Archive

This list would be a lot easier to digest if you added in the levels of each spell.

Dark Archive

If you are allowed to take spells from any book, I recommend Emergency Force Sphere, from the Cheliax splatbook. It's level 4, and makes you pretty much immune to being hirt while you still have 4th level slots left.

Magic Missile is also hard to beat, optimizing wise. At low levels, auto hit is very powerful, and the force type of damage hurts a lot of things that are very hard to hurt. And it scales up damage-wise pretty good for just a level 1 spell. You won't end up using burning hands much after you get better blasty spells. But magic missile will still have a useful place in your spell list.

Color Spray is also widely regarded as the most powerful level 1 spell. Against low HD creatures, it's effectively save of die in a 15 ft cone.


I think getting burning hands at level 1 is a bad call. Take colorspray or grease or sleep if you want POWER! You will have the Brain beam for the first levels.
But generally decide what kind of a mage you want to be and then go for it. This seem like a generalist. Is there a flavor reason for still and silent spell i like them but they are not that great. If you aim for using Dragon breath alot then i suggest you also get intensify and possibly empower Spell at the higher levels. Magic linage is also a good trait if you plan for Spell perfektion and so is that feat that allow you to put meta magic on a Spell with out making it a full round action.

Scarab Sages

This is WAY too hard to read to be worth the effort.

Try it like this:

FEATS:
1st - Eschew Materials, Improved Initiative, Toughness.
3rd - Combat Casting.
5th - Extend Spell

Etc....

Spells (level obtained shown before colon)

[/b]Cantrips:[/b]
1: Detect Magic
1: Read Magic
1: Light
1: Prestidigitation,
1: Acid Splash
2: Message
2: Ghost Sound
etc...

[/b]Level 1[/b]
1: Mage Armor
1: Burning Hands
3: Identify (bloodline spell)
3: Grease
etc..

This lets us see what you get when in a MUCH less annoying format.

What is the "Sage Bloodline?" I can't find it - that should read "arcane"?

If you are standing back and blasting (always a good option) I would lose combat casting. I know, I know, it's a staple for a lot of builds, but by and large it's an insurance policy, and there are cheaper forms of insurance. For example: Cornered by a bad guy? Grappled? Swallowed whole? All of these have the same solution - gaseous form - a potion will do you, but a ring of spell storing is a surer bet, and doesn't take a move action to get out of your handy haversack.

Would you rather spend a little money or a feat to deal with this problem?

As for the rest of your feats, they are all nice feats, but I'm not seeing a real theme here. Your still spell/silent spell combo has two basic uses - running away (silent teleport) and being sneaky - casting suggestion on a person without saying anything for example.

How do you plan to use these?

Spell perfection is great, but this is all about using the multiplier and the easy metamagic to good effect. If you took Improved Spell Penetration and greater spell focus, you would get more bang for your buck.

IMO, You will have a more powerful build and have more satisfaction playing it if you focus on a specific theme and go with it.

The Exchange

Remember you can swap out a spell at even levels beginning at level 4. You may want to consider Protection from Evil, Enlarge Person, Bullet Shield, Resilient Sphere, Telekinetic Charge, Life Bubble, Telepathic Bond, Getaway, Walk Through Space, and Horrid Wilting. Also, Piercing Spell and Widen Spell.


I am sorry for the bad format of the list. Here, I will follow PSusac's suggestions.

SPELLS KNOWN:

0th - Detect Magic, Read Magic, Light, Prestidigitation, Acid Splash, Message, Ghost Sound, Open/Close, Mage Hand, Touch of Fatigue, Spark, Mending.

1st - Mage Armor, Burning Hands, Identify (bloodline), Grease, Charm Person, Shield, Ray of Enfeeblement, Feather Fall.

2nd - Web, Invisibility (bloodline), Mirror Image, Alter Self, Resist Energy, Glitterdust, Haunting Mists, Minor Image.

3rd - Haste, Dispel Magic (bloodline), Fireball, Fly, Slow, Magic Circle Against Evil, Stinking Cloud.

4th - Confusion, Dimension Door (bloodline), Dragon's Breath, Enervation, Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, Acid Pit, Greater Invisibility, Arcane Eye.

5th - Teleport, Overland Flight (bloodline), Communal Stoneskin, Wall of Stone, Break Enchantment, Telekinesis, Dominate Person.

6th - Greater Heroism, True Seeing (bloodline), Contingency, Disintegrate,Greater Dispel Magic, Repulsion, Permanent Image.

7th - Waves of Exhaustion, Greater Teleport (bloodline), Summon Monster VII, Project Image, Caustic Eruption, Plane Shift.

8th - Maze, Power Word Stun (bloodline), Mind Blank, Moment of Prescience, Polymorph Any Object, Prismatic Wall, Mass Charm Monster, Stormbolts.

9th - Time Stop, Wish (bloodline), Prismatic Sphere, Mage's Disjunction.

FEATS:

lvl 1: Eschew Materials, Improved Initiative, Toughness.

lvl 3: Combat Casting.

lvl 5: Extend Spell.

lvl 7: Silent Spell, Still Spell (bloodline).

lvl 9: Empower Spell.

lvl 11: Selective Spell.

lvl 13: Quicken Spell, Spell Focus (Evocation) (bloodline).

lvl 15: Spell Perfection (Dragon's Breath).

lvl 17: Spell Penetration.

lvl 19: Iron Will (bloodline), Persistent Spell.

About your questions:

The Sage Bloodline is a wildblooded version of the Arcane Bloodline from the Ultimate Magic book. And also, my DM allows access to the following books: Core Rulebook, Advanced Player's Guide, Ultimate Magic, and Ultimate Combat.
Finally, I initially made these choices with the concept of the generalist sorcerer in mind, the practical broblem-solver type of caster who has solutions to every challenge.

Last but not least, I thank you for your feedback! If you have any other good ideas about these lists, please let me know! :)


I ask this a lot but it is hugely relevant:

What else is in the party?

Lots of humans? Darkvision becomes more attractive.

Lots of Fighter types? Extend Spell is worth having, especially for group buffs in a long fight.

Not many Fighter types? Summoning becomes more important to be good at.

Got something like a Fire Oracle or Elemental Sorcerer in the group? Focus on a different element than them (if at all).

You want an offensive strength/ability that compliments the party and then the back up of a lot of utility spells as a theme. See what else is in the group before you work out the detail however.


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Quote:

I am sorry for the bad format of the list. Here, I will follow PSusac's suggestions.

SPELLS KNOWN:

Hi there, I play a lot of sorcerers so am happy to offer some suggestions. One quick note before starting, have you included your bonus spells from the New Arcana level 9 ability? It will give you an extra 4th, 6th and 8th level spell. In addition you may want to invest in a Mnemonic Vestment and some scrolls for spells you will cast infrequently like Contingency or Planar Binding.

Quote:

FEATS:

lvl 1: Eschew Materials, Improved Initiative, Toughness.
lvl 3: Combat Casting.
lvl 5: Extend Spell.
lvl 7: Silent Spell, Still Spell (bloodline).
lvl 9: Empower Spell.
lvl 11: Selective Spell.
lvl 13: Quicken Spell, Spell Focus (Evocation) (bloodline).
lvl 15: Spell Perfection (Dragon's Breath).
lvl 17: Spell Penetration.
lvl 19: Iron Will (bloodline), Persistent Spell.

Things to consider.

Combat Casting is sort of OK when you get it but it loses value very fast as it becomes easier and easier to cast defensively. You are never going to cast while grappled so that part of it is pretty much irrelevant. Early on invest in potions of gaseous form, later the ring of freedom of movement. Similarly toughness is very much only OK. Improved Initiative is strong but I would train out of it at level 7 and pick it up as a bonus bloodline feat.

On metamagic you have a lot of them but that are a bit scattergun. Persistent Spell needs to come far far earlier, it is quite probably the best metamagic feat for any spontaneous caster ever. I would pick it up at 7 to start applying to glitterdust, create pit, blindness etc at level 8 (or 7 with magical lineage for one spell). On your other feats I think you probably have more than you really need. Extend Spell is OK but is more easily done with a rod and you should have enough spell slots to recast as needed. I have never found selective spell very useful although if you want to focus on dragon's breath you might find it so.

Empower is, frankly, not very good. You will not be doing a huge amount of damage with dragon's breath or other evocations and adding empower doesn't really help all that much. At level 10 an empowered 15d6 fireball does on average 52 damage if they fail the save. That is far less than half the average HP of a CR10 opponent. I would strongly recommend picking up Dazing Spell instead. This will turn all of your damage dealing spells into powerful area control. I would then pick up a couple of SR: No damage dealing spells like Acid Arrow, Ice Spears etc. To support this I would look at getting Greater Spell Focus. If you want to stick with an evocation focus then you are going to need Greater Spell Penetration. If you go more towards Conjuration you can probably skip it. You can also switch between them using retraining which I would do at the mid levels (there are lots of excellent low level control conjuration spells but not as many high level ones).

Whichever choices you make I strongly suggest picking up Craft Wondrous Item. It represents an enormous upgrade in the gear available to you and as an Int primary character with spellcraft you dont really need to worry about the DC increase for not having the particular spell required. I would probably redo your feat list as follows:

lvl 1: Eschew Materials, Improved Initiative, Spell Focus (Conjuration)
lvl 3: Greater Spell Focus (Conjuration)
lvl 5: Craft Wondrous Item
lvl 7: Retrain Improved Initiative into Persistent Spell, Improved Initiative(bloodline), Spell Penetration
lvl 9: Dazing Spell
lvl 11: Quicken Spell
lvl 13: Retrain both Spell Focus feats to Evocation, Still Spell(bloodline), Silent Spell
lvl 15: Spell Perfection (Dragon's Breath)
lvl 17: Greater Spell Penetration
lvl 19: Iron Will (bloodline), Expanded Arcana (bonus 9th level spell)

Quote:
1st - Mage Armor, Burning Hands, Identify (bloodline), Grease, Charm Person, Shield, Ray of Enfeeblement, Feather Fall.

Extra spells I would include here include: Magic Missile (incorporeal creatures), Snowball (for Golems but outside the books allowed), Disguise Self, Unseen Servant, Floating Disc, Protection from Evil, Alarm, Endure Eleements, Obscuring Mist, True Strike and Silent Image. You cannot know all of these but a level 1 page of spell knowledge costs 1k gold and you can easily have all of them by about level 12. I wouldn't bother with Ray of Enfeeblement, grab Colour Spray early on and trade it out for something later. Alternatively Silent Image can be extremely powerful depending on your GM's interpretation of illusions. If you plan on using animate dead or simulacrum then grab blood money as well.

Quote:
2nd - Web, Invisibility (bloodline), Mirror Image, Alter Self, Resist Energy, Glitterdust, Haunting Mists, Minor Image.

These all look decent although I am doubtful of Alter Self. At later levels you want an Elemental Body spell and in the end game Shapechange is key. Haunting Mists is OK but with your evocation spell focus you are better off with Burst of Radiance (if you can convince your GM to allow the book). I would drop Minor Image for Command Undead, it is extremely powerful in the mid game as it lasts for days and mindless undead get no save. I would also look to include Darkvision somehow, possibly with a page at later levels along with See Invisibility. Glitterdust is good but sometimes the invisibile enemy is a flying spellcaster 200' away and you cant be sure you will catch them in the area. Blindness also makes a decent low to mid level fortitude single target debuff. I would also pick up Create Pit early on and trade out for a higher level pit later. Pilfering Hand is another one to strongly conisder, it adds all sorts of interesting options. Consider adding a No SR damage spell like Acid Arrow depending on which way you go with your feats.

Quote:
3rd - Haste, Dispel Magic (bloodline), Fireball, Fly, Slow, Magic Circle Against Evil, Stinking Cloud.

These are all strong although I tend to find slow unnecessary when you already have glitterdust and/or confusion. Fly needs to be traded out around level 11 when Overland Flight becomes available. Heroism is probably a better option than the level 6 greater heroism if only due to the duration. I would also try and fit Suggestion into here, it is incredibly strong. Trade it out at higher level for Mass Suggestion. Ice Spears is another No SR damage spell which may be useful depending on feats.

Quote:
4th - Confusion, Dimension Door (bloodline), Dragon's Breath, Enervation, Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, Acid Pit, Greater Invisibility, Arcane Eye.

Lesser Globe isnt very good, in fact none of the globes are as they are stationary and you dont want to be getting full attacked ever. Emergency Force Sphere is a must have at the mid levels (again if you can convince your GM). Elemental Body I is an amazing buff, flight, swin, earth glide, darkvision, natural armour, small size, all within one glorious little spell. Confusion is a great spell but can slow down the table. I would be tempted by Fear as an alternate which also applies shaken on a save helping out your group. I would also consider having Enervation for creatures with very high saves, Dimensional Anchor for subsequent planar binding options and Charm Monster or Animate Dead for general minionmancy.

Quote:
5th - Teleport, Overland Flight (bloodline), Communal Stoneskin, Wall of Stone, Break Enchantment, Telekinesis, Dominate Person.

Communal Stoneskin isn't very good. By the time you get it any attack is likely blowing straight through it and Emergency Force Sphere is a better protective spell. I am not sure why you have taken Break Enchantment. Its 10 minute cast time makes it a pure out of combat spell and better done by a prepared caster. Wall of Stone starts strong but fades fast as you meet more flying and teleporting creatures. I would try and add Baleful Polymorph in the mid levels for dealing with casters and Hold Monster as a strong mid level single target will save. I would consider Fickle Winds pretty much essential although you will have to rely on scrolls early on as it isnt likely to be your first or even second pick.

Quote:
6th - Greater Heroism, True Seeing (bloodline), Contingency, Disintegrate,Greater Dispel Magic, Repulsion, Permanent Image.

Disintegrate isn't really very good. Fortitude tends to be the best save of many creatures and the damage isnt great. Its main use is getting past walls of force and you can already dimension door people past them. I would strongly consider Mass Suggestion as an amazing will save or suck. Persistent Mass Suggestion will be better than standard Mass Charm Monster any day of the week. In here I would look at adding Chain Lightning to apply dazing to and Planar Binding for all sorts of options.

Quote:
7th - Waves of Exhaustion, Greater Teleport (bloodline), Summon Monster VII, Project Image, Caustic Eruption, Plane Shift.

Waves is an OK spell but it takes up a high level slot for something which doesnt end the encounter or add a lot of versatility. I would definately want Limited Wish at this level especially as you are not a paragon surge using half elf. I rather like Magnificent Mansion if only for the cool factor. It also makes an interesting retreat spell. Simulacrum opens up all sorts of crazy options but is very much a speak to your GM in advance spell. Hungry Darkness is an amazing evocation spell to attach Dazing to.

Quote:
8th - Maze, Power Word Stun (bloodline), Mind Blank, Moment of Prescience, Polymorph Any Object, Prismatic Wall, Mass Charm Monster, Stormbolts.

Stormbolts is OK but you would have better effect applying Dazing to a lower level spell like Chain Lightning. I would be looking closely at Greater Planar Binding, combined with Moment of Prescience you are never failing the charisma check even if you dump to 7.

Quote:
9th - Time Stop, Wish (bloodline), Prismatic Sphere, Mage's Disjunction.

The big spell you are missing here is Shapechange. With its 10 minute per level duration, an orange ioun stone and a greater rod of extend spell you get over 6 hours duration with every cast at level 18. It is enormously versatile and can offer immunity to any element, immunity to sneak attack or critical hits, every movement mode going and much more. You want Shapechange even if you have to take an expanded arcana feat to get the spells you need.

Finally a quick word about gear. You will want a lot of the standard stuff, headbands, cloak of resistance, handy haversack etc but you can also invest in rods. Extend rods are dirt cheap as are selective. I would avoid expensive ones and invest in the Staff of the Master Necromancer, multiple copies if necessary.


Another thing you could do with your feats is to focus on taking expanded arcana starting at 5th level. It has the option of gaining 2 extra spells known as a long as they are 1 level below your maximum spell level. Combined with the human FCB that is 4 extra spells known per spell level. When you factor in your bloodline spell, that gives you up to 10 spells known per spell level. That does not leave you much else in the way of feats. Since Ultimate Campaign is not on the list of books known you probably cannot retrain your feats so you would need to use your early feats to pick up anything else you want.

Don’t bother with Improve Initiative or Toughness.


Dude, you're responding to a spam-bot necroing the thread after 8 years.
just flag it.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Ring of Spell Knowledge: Get a spellbook, fetch a Spell Known as you need, as many times a day as you need, up to the spell level of the Ring.

Versatile Spontaneity: Turns you into a Prepared Spellcaster. You can now use Pearls for your Memorized SPells, and even a Ring of Wizardry. Also, your spellbook is now a resource for your Arcane Bond and Mnemonic Investment.

Extra Spell Known: Next Bloodline Spell. Gets you your Bloodline spell two levels early, gets refunded at the appropriate level, use it for the same thing again.

Extend Spell is far more useful to a Sorcerer than Still and Silent, which are very situational.

Ask your DM if Pages of SPell Knowledge for Cantrips are okay. They'd be 250 gp each. No reason to waste FC points on them.

Without Fixed bonuses to it and a strong Metamagic like maximize, Spell Perfection is sort of wasted. You probably want to swap out your TK/throwing Sage power for Power in the Blood (+1/die of Bloodline/Spell Focus spells) and take Spell Focus Evocation sooner.

(yes, I realize this is years late, but just in case someone reads it for a build! )

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