Failing a save only means you don't recognize that the illusion is an illusion. That works because it fools your senses. However it does nothing to.fool detect.magic.
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@Ascalaphus
I would say that the perception-traps to Detect Magic-illusion comparison breaks down when you consider that one involves an actual roll for success and one is always an automatic success. If having perception as a class skill made it so that you automatically knew if there was a trap within 30 feet of you with no error, then yeah, that would pretty much make traps pointless.
But that's not really true.
3rd Round: The strength and location of each aura. If the items or creatures bearing the auras are in line of sight, you can make Knowledge (arcana) skill checks to determine the school of magic involved in each. (Make one check per aura: DC 15 + spell level, or 15 + 1/2 caster level for a nonspell effect.) If the aura eminates from a magic item, you can attempt to identify its properties (see Spellcraft).
That DC is significant at low levels; a duration that lasts for more than a few minutes is likely level 4+, so DC 19. That's not a guaranteed success for low-level characters.
So a lot of the time, all you know for certain is that there's magic, not what the magic does.
If you think Detect Magic is bad, wait till you read the spellcraft skill. Evil illusionist casts a spell and anyone who makes their spellcraft check knows it's an illusion. Should we ban spellcraft? :)
The vast majority of Illusion spells are "defensive" or reactive by nature. They are something that is laid down ahead of time, usually either to conceal something that is there or display something that is not there. Therefore, the Illusionist boss will have set them up far before the PCs actually get there.
I'm not sure what the Spellcraft DC would be to notice something that's cast half a mile away, underground, but I think it's pretty high, don't you? :)
So a lot of the time, all you know for certain is that there's magic, not what the magic does.
PC: Oh, this certain section of the floor/wall is magical, you say? Hmm I wonder whatever it might be!
*party starts buffing Will saves and throwing rocks and poking things with poles*
I like to rule that casting detect magic counts as interacting with an illusion. (Not my own original idea.)
That is.not.how the rules work. Even if I fail the sail I will know there is an an aura because the spell says so. Basically all you are doing is granting a free will save.Even if you count it as an interaction it does not stop you from knowing or at least thinking you detected an illusion aura and relaying it to the party not that I agree that counts as interaction.Counting it as an interaction means the caster has a chance to disbelieve. If they fail, they don't detect the illusion aura at all. If they succeed, they did and can communicate that to the party, just as if they'd tried to touch an illusion and successfully disbelieved.
"A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss." (CRB p. 211) If you want to say that the spell description for Detect Magic trumps this rule in your game, that's fine. I prefer my interpretation because it keep a 0-level spell appropriately powered.
Noticing an aura still does not mean he knows something is amiss. It means he noticed an aura, nothing more nothing less. Not every magical aura is a sign of something bad or trickery.
That has nothing to do with the rule you quoted.
I would just tell the party that all buff spells that last 1 minute per level or less expire after each encounter because they are moving so slowly. If the party depends on buffs, they won't like that very much.
Changing the rules of the game like that is a terrible thing to do. You are punishing them for being careful. It is not like it is eating up real life time. They can just take 10 on the perception check, and the actual in game time can be calculated so you saying it takes too long in game time can be proven false if that is where you are headed.
I like to say that whenever someone casts Detect Magic a 10 ton block falls on them. I like to SAY that, but rarely is that the case and it is not RAW. Still there are LOTS of ways to defeat Detect Magic.
Also this is a cantrip. Please understand that it should not be greater in power than spells used for similar purposes at higher spell levels (Arcane Sight). Between easy foils and greater spells I've fortunately not had to resort to shenanigans to discourage Detect Magic's constant use/abuse.
Still just in case, I have the write up for the damage on the 10 ton block...
Use hallucinatory terrian or mirage arcana to coat an entire dungeon. Use several small illusions in a area to tie the PCs there forever while the bad guy does something. Use illusions to make rooms seem like corridors and vice versa.
Think outside the box, and don't just leave one block of floor covering a pit.
Or do that too, so your PCs find something and feel good.
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IDK - this just reminds me how badly some of the game rules are written. Illusion spells should have been handled much differently than other spells since their primary value is in deception - yet they don't get any special provisions or rules in that area.
Same goes with Necromancy and the fact that it can be used as a force multiplier - not much thought put into any of this.
Oh yeah, I hate 0-level spammable spells - just terrible design and poorly thought out to satisfy a "feel good" itch that needed to be scratched imo. Because we all know that casters needed to be able to do something going from 3.5 to PFRPG.
Detect Magic should be an aid, not a counter.
Hoover, your 10 ton block idea is starting to look really good. Only I wish it had dropped on my head earlier so I could have avoided opening this thread.
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I like to rule that casting detect magic counts as interacting with an illusion. (Not my own original idea.)
I think the above is the way I would play it...
The caster is using an effect to interact with the illusion.
Whether its a spell, a magnifying glass, throwing a rock or stepping on it...he's trying to determine if it's real.
So everytime he casts detect magic, roll or make him roll a will save. If he fails, it looks like whatever the illusion is supposed to be. He could do the same with Open/Close and interact with the door chect openable item.
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I would just tell the party that all buff spells that last 1 minute per level or less expire after each encounter because they are moving so slowly. If the party depends on buffs, they won't like that very much.
Even low-level Mage Armor will run out before the dungeon is done, if you're going two-three times as slow as normal.
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So a lot of the time, all you know for certain is that there's magic, not what the magic does.PC: Oh, this certain section of the floor/wall is magical, you say? Hmm I wonder whatever it might be!
*party starts buffing Will saves and throwing rocks and poking things with poles*
I think most parties are more scared of a magical trap that deals damage. Sure, illusions are annoying, but it's not the thing that they're most scared of.
Seriously, I would just let them keep playing as they want. If the party is not bugged by the wizard's constant detect magic, then so be it. You need to let them have fun.
Just make sure they earn it. Don't let the wizard get away with something like "just assume I'm doing it every 30 seconds or 30ft and let me know if I detect anything." No. You stop and make him play it out every ... single ... time. If there are any complaints, calmly state that that is not how the game is played - the players don't get to put abilities on autopilot and then have you do all the work and give them the results. The fighters don't get to say "yeah, just assume I power attack the closest enemy until it's dead. Let me know when I'm lower than 10hp."
If playing it out every time is really what the group has fun doing - then, well, that's that. You need to let it go and give them little nuggets to find and have fun with.
My guess is, this will eventually fade. But whatever you do, don't try stop players from making choices that there's no real reason they can't make. This never turns out well and is usually interpreted as a power-tripping GM who want's it his way.
It seems like you want the party to have a certain interaction with an illusion. That's just...well, not what GMing is about. You put the illusions there or don't, and what happens happens. A careful wizard is a careful wizard and he finds them. The cantrip is not trumping an entire school. The spell has limitations - range, concentration time, vagueness, etc. If the whole party has time to stop, buff their will saves, poke the bejesus out of the area and finally disbelieve that thing - then, well, what else was really going to happen? Aren't they kind of earning it?
In short - let it go. If the party is having fun, you're already 99% of the way there.
@Ascalaphus
I would say that the perception-traps to Detect Magic-illusion comparison breaks down when you consider that one involves an actual roll for success and one is always an automatic success. If having perception as a class skill made it so that you automatically knew if there was a trap within 30 feet of you with no error, then yeah, that would pretty much make traps pointless.
But that's not really true.
3rd Round: The strength and location of each aura. If the items or creatures bearing the auras are in line of sight, you can make Knowledge (arcana) skill checks to determine the school of magic involved in each. (Make one check per aura: DC 15 + spell level, or 15 + 1/2 caster level for a nonspell effect.) If the aura eminates from a magic item, you can attempt to identify its properties (see Spellcraft).That DC is significant at low levels; a duration that lasts for more than a few minutes is likely level 4+, so DC 19. That's not a guaranteed success for low-level characters.
So a lot of the time, all you know for certain is that there's magic, not what the magic does.
You make a very good point and I stand corrected; that's what happens when I skim a spell and misread it. I'm still uncomfortable with the concept and though I think the DC is a bit low I wouldn't be bothered enough to houserule it (I would say the DC for casting such a spell defensively). With the required knowledge check in place along with the three round duration I'd leave it alone then I guess.
Thank you for pointing that out.
I've been tossing around making casters make a CL check every time they encounter an illusion with detect magic or other divination magic. In layman's terms, which wizards magic is more powerful, if the caster level check is failed hey they did a good enough job with their illusion and you do not detect it. A 0 level spell should not be powerful enough to detract an entire encounter at higher levels.
Create a magic eating monster that gets more powerful every time a spell is cast in its presence. Then have it follow the party around invisibly getting more and more powerful every time they cast detect magic...naw that's pretty evil.
Two Words.
Wandering
Monsters
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I've been tossing around making casters make a CL check every time they encounter an illusion with detect magic or other divination magic. In layman's terms, which wizards magic is more powerful, if the caster level check is failed hey they did a good enough job with their illusion and you do not detect it. A 0 level spell should not be powerful enough to detract an entire encounter at higher levels.
Sure it can, if it's a dumb encounter that's just sitting there doing nothing apart from being a shiny illusion.
This thread is full of clever uses of illusions that wouldn't be defeated by spamming a 0th level spell.
If this really bothers you as a GM I would propose a CL check or detect magic does not detect anything.
The biggest thing I find that keeps at will cantrips in check is that any tool the PCs have can become a weapon in the enemy's arsenal if not used correctly. The other is that the too many worlds seem to have a lot of dumb NPCs that don't understand how to turn the potential strength of all divination spells into a weakness to be exploited.
Detect Magic in particular is prone to all sorts of problems if you're running an reasonably realistic world. It requires a lot of time and a clear line of sight; any party member between the caster and the target area is going to slow the process down, during which time the fighter with a 10 dex wearing heavy plate is likely going to be making at least some noise that could attract the random scavenger or predator. Also, pretty much any dungeon is going to have lingering auras in seemingly random spots just because magic as a tool is pretty dang common. Lastly, just because they know it's an illusion doesn't mean squat; even knowing where the illusion is doesn't really help much if used in conjunction with pretty much any other technique designed to hamper or slow down a party. Even a semi-effective use of illusion auras can create huge time sinks with no appreciable gains, making it it unlikely that the party is going to want to explore every single aura you throw in their path.
The only reason that illusion magic is at a distinct disadvantage vs detect magic is that designing a full dungeon that allows for detect magic to work while not being overpowered takes a lot of effort, and most DMs just don't always have that kind of time. At that point, detect magic isn't the problem, it's a player that refuses to respect the effort it takes to counter certain tactics, and uses those tactics anyway knowing full well that it ruins the game for the DM, and quite possibly everyone else at the table.
Magic, and especially any magic dealing with illusions, has always required both the player and DM to look past the written rules and find a common ground that works for that individual group, campaign, and even specific dungeon. A DM with lots of prep time that can develop full, robust dungeons can let a player get away with a lot more than a DM that is barely able to find time to read a premade adventure, and both players and DMs need to be very clear on what should be done, vs what can be done, to keep everyone at the table happy and engaged.
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The only reason that illusion magic is at a distinct disadvantage vs detect magic is that designing a full dungeon that allows for detect magic to work while not being overpowered takes a lot of effort, and most DMs just don't always have that kind of time. At that point, detect magic isn't the problem, it's a player that refuses to respect the effort it takes to counter certain tactics, and uses those tactics anyway knowing full well that it ruins the game for the DM, and quite possibly everyone else at the table.
Magic, and especially any magic dealing with illusions, has always required both the player and DM to look past the written rules and find a common ground that works for that individual group, campaign, and even specific dungeon. A DM with lots of prep time that can develop full, robust dungeons can let a player get away with a lot more than a DM that is barely able to find time to read a premade adventure, and both players and DMs need to be very clear on what should be done, vs what can be done, to keep everyone at the table happy and engaged.
This is a very good insight.
I do think as a GM it's possible to bluff your way through some of this. You don't have to make every dungeon DM-proof. You mostly just need to pull a trick on the players, staying entirely within the rules. Thereafter the players won't put quite that much trust in DM.
When players are faced with the choice between going inch by inch with DM, or going fast and getting the most out of buff spells, this matters. If they trust DM completely and magic traps are scary, then they'll "have no choice" but to do the reasonable thing and spam DM. But if DM isn't entirely reliable anyway, it's a more open choice for them.
That won't eliminate DM spam entirely I think. Some parts of the dungeon will look so suspicious that you'd be a fool not to use every detection method available. But you probably won't want to use it everywhere.
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Another point about DM's limits. If you don't have 3 rounds, then you're not going to detect illusions. This coincides with the places where illusions can be most lethal: combats.
You enter a room. There are three monsters in the room. Maybe one of them is an illusion. Are you going to spend three rounds using Detect Magic to find out, or are you going to fight, before the real monsters kill you?
Suppose you're the wizard and you elect to stand in the back and use DM while the rest of the party moves in front of you and fights. In round 2 you know how many auras, but half your party is there too. Did you remember how many auras each party member carries, and which ones are in the AoE? And did the creatures you're observing stay in your AoE? If they move out of it you have to start over again.
So while DM is quite effective against an illusion that's just there by itself, in combat it's very hard to use, and generally requires a character to spend three standard actions. That's extremely expensive.
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So you think it is more likely that a player just casts DM every 30' in every adventure?To me there must be more going on than what we have been told. It is a reasonable guess that the DM overuses illusions and that his players are adapting.
My players are constantly doing it, and I do it also when I play. It is not different than moving at half speed and unless we are in a hurry there is no reason to rush while in an area.
Move 30 feet, perception check, and detect magic. <----I don't see a problem with this.
Now, I am not saying this is done during the entire session, but if we are in a place where enemies are then it is not a bad idea.
I tend to find that that leans away from smart dungeon adventuring while in an area with a high possibility of violent enemies.
Sneaking, taking your time, looking carefully around is one thing.
Casting spells every few seconds is another. The party is drawing attention to itself unnecessarily. Which is how I am reading the scenario from the OP. The party is doing this every times they are out of the range of the last DM cast.
It is a fairly easy DC 10 to hear spell casting 50' through a door.
Shrug, just how I see it
2. Just because something is at-will does not mean a PC is a tireless, precise automaton. Perception checks may come into play, and I don't assigning a fatigued condition after an hour or so of this is unreasonable.
This on is actually RAW.
Taking a move action while taking a standard to do something else is a hustle. A character can only hustle for an hour between sleep cycles before he starts taking non-lethal damage.
That's an hour total, mind you, and includes anything a character does for the entire day that's not moving at a normal pace or just sitting around, like combat, for instance.
You only get 600 rounds of strenuous activity a day, using those up just walking down corridors can add up quickly.
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If it's an illusion that allows a save for disbelief, I usually count detect magic as 'interacting'. Fail your will save, and you won't detect the aura of the illusion.
Also, the magic aura spell is your friend.
So you think it is more likely that a player just casts DM every 30' in every adventure?To me there must be more going on than what we have been told. It is a reasonable guess that the DM overuses illusions and that his players are adapting.
My players are constantly doing it, and I do it also when I play. It is not different than moving at half speed and unless we are in a hurry there is no reason to rush while in an area.
Move 30 feet, perception check, and detect magic. <----I don't see a problem with this.
Now, I am not saying this is done during the entire session, but if we are in a place where enemies are then it is not a bad idea.
I tend to find that that leans away from smart dungeon adventuring while in an area with a high possibility of violent enemies.
Sneaking, taking your time, looking carefully around is one thing.
Casting spells every few seconds is another. The party is drawing attention to itself unnecessarily. Which is how I am reading the scenario from the OP. The party is doing this every times they are out of the range of the last DM cast.
It is a fairly easy DC 10 to hear spell casting 50' through a door.
Shrug, just how I see it
You quoted the wrong person.. :)
2. Just because something is at-will does not mean a PC is a tireless, precise automaton. Perception checks may come into play, and I don't assigning a fatigued condition after an hour or so of this is unreasonable.
This on is actually RAW.
Taking a move action while taking a standard to do something else is a hustle. A character can only hustle for an hour between sleep cycles before he starts taking non-lethal damage.
That's an hour total, mind you, and includes anything a character does for the entire day that's not moving at a normal pace or just sitting around, like combat, for instance.
You only get 600 rounds of strenuous activity a day, using those up just walking down corridors can add up quickly.
You can't even take a move and a standard action at the same time so that can't be RAW.
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You can't even take a move and a standard action at the same time so that can't be RAW.
2. Just because something is at-will does not mean a PC is a tireless, precise automaton. Perception checks may come into play, and I don't assigning a fatigued condition after an hour or so of this is unreasonable.
This on is actually RAW.
Taking a move action while taking a standard to do something else is a hustle. A character can only hustle for an hour between sleep cycles before he starts taking non-lethal damage.
That's an hour total, mind you, and includes anything a character does for the entire day that's not moving at a normal pace or just sitting around, like combat, for instance.
You only get 600 rounds of strenuous activity a day, using those up just walking down corridors can add up quickly.
Hustle: A hustle is a jog (about 6 miles per hour for an unencumbered human). A character moving his speed twice in a single round, or moving that speed in the same round that he or she performs a standard action or another move action, is hustling when he or she moves.
What did you think I meant?
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It's a zero level spell. House rule it to be touch only, and you're most of the way there.
If they want to put the resources into arcane sight, or something like that, then fine.
This was the solution that Jess Door brought to our home game during the Parhfinder Beta playtest, and it worked wonders. We've used it ever since.
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People have identified the problem clearly - it's an infinite resource that doesn't slow down a group anymore than checking for traps does. When it detects, you spend time to scan further and have to overcome a roll that's generally easy except at very low levels to defeat a much higher level spell.
I think the part that's not been clearly identified - is there a solution with the RAW that saves illusions a) in combat b) out of combat. In combat is an easier answer - action economy to some extent. But your illusionist who prepared the battlefield still could have loads of spell levels worth of work ruined by a 0 level spell (and a small dab of paranoia). Out of combat fatigue rules aren't the answer - that will just result in PCs using it more sparingly (but still in any dangerous situation), or resting more often.
My point is this - if you had to go even further out of your way as a GM or as a BBEG to make your illusions worthwhile, why wouldn't you just use a different school?
Is it fair by RAW to have a general ruling that unless you've overcome the illusion, they don't even detect as magical? Or like darkness/light interactions, the lower spell level one always loses? It does seem fair that spells designed to conceal wouldn't themselves be detectable - e.g. if you put on a nondetection spell, a detect magic can't find you/the object, but could find the nondetection spell itself? 'I don't detect anything in his pocket, but there is an abjuration spell there perhaps indicating someone has cast nondetection on an object.' I don't think that's how things should work, and illusions should function the same way. Are there rules to support this?
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RAW - Casting a spell cannot be done quietly. (Verbal components must be spoken in a firm voice.) If a party walks through every hallway casting detect magic every 30 feet, then the enemies should have a surprise round against the party each and every single time.
Is that sufficient?
RAW - Casting a spell cannot be done quietly. (Verbal components must be spoken in a firm voice.) If a party walks through every hallway casting detect magic every 30 feet, then the enemies should have a surprise round against the party each and every single time.
Is that sufficient?
Realistically the enemy should know the party is there from the very first fight unless it all happens to take place in a Silence area. Kicking down someone's door, steel on steel, fiery explosions, and screams are hardly subtle.
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My favorite way of foiling this is quite... chaotic. As the wizard begins detecting illusions, the walls fall away. At first, these are small horrors. The dungeon wall is actually grave dirt and there is a mass grave here with skeletons. Then later, there is an eye in the wall. Further on and deeper down, perhaps the floor is made of living tissue and mouths. The more the wizard "dispels" or "sees through" the more Sanity loss he takes. Making will saves vs Insanity. Finally the wizard realizes this is no ordinary dungeon but a direct link to Xoriat, the Plane of Madness.
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I like traps triggered by detect magic in my homebrews
You can't even take a move and a standard action at the same time so that can't be RAW.
2. Just because something is at-will does not mean a PC is a tireless, precise automaton. Perception checks may come into play, and I don't assigning a fatigued condition after an hour or so of this is unreasonable.
This on is actually RAW.
Taking a move action while taking a standard to do something else is a hustle. A character can only hustle for an hour between sleep cycles before he starts taking non-lethal damage.
That's an hour total, mind you, and includes anything a character does for the entire day that's not moving at a normal pace or just sitting around, like combat, for instance.
You only get 600 rounds of strenuous activity a day, using those up just walking down corridors can add up quickly.Hustle: A hustle is a jog (about 6 miles per hour for an unencumbered human). A character moving his speed twice in a single round, or moving that speed in the same round that he or she performs a standard action or another move action, is hustling when he or she moves.What did you think I meant?
I thought you meant simultaneously, but moving at half speed which was mentioned earlier prevents that, and at higher levels the buffs still last long enough to not burn out.
600 rounds is 60 minutes or one hour. Most dungeons(enemy HQ) are not big enough so that you have to worry about getting tired(fatigued) from hustling unless the GM magically makes time pass.
People have identified the problem clearly - it's an infinite resource that doesn't slow down a group anymore than checking for traps does. When it detects, you spend time to scan further and have to overcome a roll that's generally easy except at very low levels to defeat a much higher level spell.
I think the part that's not been clearly identified - is there a solution with the RAW that saves illusions a) in combat b) out of combat. In combat is an easier answer - action economy to some extent. But your illusionist who prepared the battlefield still could have loads of spell levels worth of work ruined by a 0 level spell (and a small dab of paranoia). Out of combat fatigue rules aren't the answer - that will just result in PCs using it more sparingly (but still in any dangerous situation), or resting more often.
My point is this - if you had to go even further out of your way as a GM or as a BBEG to make your illusions worthwhile, why wouldn't you just use a different school?
Is it fair by RAW to have a general ruling that unless you've overcome the illusion, they don't even detect as magical? Or like darkness/light interactions, the lower spell level one always loses? It does seem fair that spells designed to conceal wouldn't themselves be detectable - e.g. if you put on a nondetection spell, a detect magic can't find you/the object, but could find the nondetection spell itself? 'I don't detect anything in his pocket, but there is an abjuration spell there perhaps indicating someone has cast nondetection on an object.' I don't think that's how things should work, and illusions should function the same way. Are there rules to support this?
There is no rule to support it, but it would be a good houserule.
RAW - Casting a spell cannot be done quietly. (Verbal components must be spoken in a firm voice.) If a party walks through every hallway casting detect magic every 30 feet, then the enemies should have a surprise round against the party each and every single time.
Is that sufficient?
Nope because it breaks other rules. If the bad guys are hiding the party should still get a perception check to notice them. The better way to handle this is with a caster level check or a will save to notice the aura.
I am somewhat dismayed that this is still an area of contention so many years after the CRB has been released. Why haven't the developers bothered to clear up such a fundamental question in all this time?
I am somewhat dismayed that this is still an area of contention so many years after the CRB has been released. Why haven't the developers bothered to clear up such a fundamental question in all this time?
The rules handle it already. People just don't like the way it plays out. There is nothing to clear up. Nothing in the illusion school gives it a pass. The aura for the school is not the illusion itself. And normally when this comes up it is not a "rules" issue, but a "how do I get around this" question.
Even spellcraft defeats the illusion if cast in front of the person.
Those are two fundamentally different circumstances, though. I find the question how illusion spells and Detect Magic interact to be of relevance. Does this level 0 cantrip beat level 9 illusions, or do you need to make a save to even be able to detect that there is an illusion spell with Detect Magic?
That you think it already is cleared up is just, like, your opinion, man.