Official Ruling on True Seeing + Nondetection?

[Barachiel Shina]

Is there any official ruling on these two spells? Everywhere I search I find endless debates on this.

From what I can read with Nondetection and True Seeing, and reading too many debates on the forums, I can confidently conclude that True Seeing DOES work even against Nondetection.

Judging purely from the wording of both spells, Nondetection protects the target from detection-type divination spells targeted at them, basically spells that probably would force a saving throw to avoid detection or spells with the sole purpose of divining their location somehow.

True Seeing, from what I can read, does none of those things. It confers a special ability on the target, the ability to "see things as they are." For example, a doppelganger is going to be seen as a doppelganger, not a human. A magic door made to appear as a solid wall would be seen as a door. However, it would not show the door that is hidden behind thick vines, because the vines covering the door is "how it really is."

In other words, True Seeing sees through falsifying environments. It targets no one in particular, it's a personal magical gift. No different than the True Strike spell, which is a divination spell but Nondetection does nothing to stop it.

That's just my personal conclusion. I really wish Paizo had a more official ruling on this as it is driving me nuts.

[Scavion]

Is True Seeing a Divination?

If Yes: Nondetection blocks but allows a caster level check to penetrate.

If No: Nondetection has no effect.

[Simon Legrande]

Nondetection does not say that it blocks all divination spells, just those targeted against you. Nondetection is a 3rd level spell.
True Seeing gives you the ability to see reality. True Seeing is a 6th level spell.

1. No way should a 3rd level spell trump a 6th level spell.
2. If you're standing where you can be seen, Nondetection does nothing for you anyway. No divination is needed to see someone standing right there.
3. If you have Invisibility and Nondetection going, True Seeing sees through the Invisibility then see #2.
4. You can't use True Seeing through a scrying device. Therefore, you can't use True Seeing to remotely view someone with Nondetection.

[Claxon]

FAQ'ing because while I think you're on to something with it only applying to targeted divination spells, it is less than clear. I think RAI that might be the case, but RAW I feel Scavion is correct.

[ZZTRaider]

Simon Legrande wrote:

1. No way should a 3rd level spell trump a 6th level spell.

I don't think this holds. Protection from Evil definitely trumps Dominate Monster, and that's working as intended. That's a case where a 1st level spell trumps a 9th level spell.

[Simon Legrande]

Claxon wrote:

FAQ'ing because while I think you're on to something with it only applying to targeted divination spells, it is less than clear. I think RAI that might be the case, but RAW I feel Scavion is correct.

CRB wrote:

School abjuration; Level ranger 4, sorcerer/wizard 3

Casting Time 1 standard action

Components V, S, M (diamond dust worth 50 gp)

Range touch

Target creature or object touched

Duration 1 hour/level

Saving Throw Will negates (harmless, object); Spell Resistance yes (harmless, object)

The warded creature or object becomes difficult to detect by divination spells such as clairaudience/clairvoyance, locate object, and detect spells. Nondetection also prevents location by such magic items as crystal balls. If a divination is attempted against the warded creature or item, the caster of the divination must succeed on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against a DC of 11 + the caster level of the spellcaster who cast nondetection. If you cast nondetection on yourself or on an item currently in your possession, the DC is 15 + your caster level.

If cast on a creature, nondetection wards the creature's gear as well as the creature itself.

Seems clear enough to me, but apparently that's just me.

[Simon Legrande]

ZZTRaider wrote:

Simon Legrande wrote:

1. No way should a 3rd level spell trump a 6th level spell.

I don't think this holds. Protection from Evil definitely trumps Dominate Monster, and that's working as intended. That's a case where a 1st level spell trumps a 9th level spell.

Dominate Monster lasts 1 day/level. While it's affecting a creature, that creature will follow out any command you gave it. It has this to say concerning Protection from Evil:

Dominate Monster wrote:

Protection from evil or a similar spell can prevent you from exercising control or using the telepathic link while the subject is so warded, but such an effect does not automatically dispel it.

Protection from Evil doesn't end the spell nor does it suppress the spell. It just makes it so you can't actively control the person while the 1 min/level Protection is going. Also, being under the effects of Protection from Evil does not make a person immune to Dominate.

[seebs]

Well, it definitely won't block discern location.

The more interesting question is mind blank vs. true seeing. I think the official ruling is that mind blank also beats [i]see invisible[/b], which is slightly surprising to me but mostly only because I have no actual concept of how invisibility and see invisibility work.

[ZZTRaider]

Simon Legrande wrote:

ZZTRaider wrote:

Simon Legrande wrote:

1. No way should a 3rd level spell trump a 6th level spell.

I don't think this holds. Protection from Evil definitely trumps Dominate Monster, and that's working as intended. That's a case where a 1st level spell trumps a 9th level spell.

Dominate Monster lasts 1 day/level. While it's affecting a creature, that creature will follow out any command you gave it. It has this to say concerning Protection from Evil:

Dominate Monster wrote:

Protection from evil or a similar spell can prevent you from exercising control or using the telepathic link while the subject is so warded, but such an effect does not automatically dispel it.

Protection from Evil doesn't end the spell nor does it suppress the spell. It just makes it so you can't actively control the person while the 1 min/level Protection is going. Also, being under the effects of Protection from Evil does not make a person immune to Dominate.

"While under the effects of this spell, the target is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target."

It suppresses existing effects, but prevents new effects.

[Victor Zajic]

Simon Legrande wrote:

Claxon wrote:

FAQ'ing because while I think you're on to something with it only applying to targeted divination spells, it is less than clear. I think RAI that might be the case, but RAW I feel Scavion is correct.

CRB wrote:

School abjuration; Level ranger 4, sorcerer/wizard 3

Casting Time 1 standard action

Components V, S, M (diamond dust worth 50 gp)

Range touch

Target creature or object touched

Duration 1 hour/level

Saving Throw Will negates (harmless, object); Spell Resistance yes (harmless, object)

The warded creature or object becomes difficult to detect by divination spells such as clairaudience/clairvoyance, locate object, and detect spells. Nondetection also prevents location by such magic items as crystal balls. If a divination is attempted against the warded creature or item, the caster of the divination must succeed on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against a DC of 11 + the caster level of the spellcaster who cast nondetection. If you cast nondetection on yourself or on an item currently in your possession, the DC is 15 + your caster level.

If cast on a creature, nondetection wards the creature's gear as well as the creature itself.

Seems clear enough to me, but apparently that's just me.

That in no way shape or form says it only applies to targeted divinations. It even calls out the 'Detect X' series of spells, which create cones and don't target what-so-ever.

The heart of this debate is if True Seeing counts as "divination spells such as clairaudience/clairvoyance, locate object, and detect spells"

It doesn't clearly call out all divination spells, and it also doesn't call out only those divination spells.

[Simon Legrande]

ZZTRaider wrote:

Simon Legrande wrote:

ZZTRaider wrote:

Simon Legrande wrote:

1. No way should a 3rd level spell trump a 6th level spell.

I don't think this holds. Protection from Evil definitely trumps Dominate Monster, and that's working as intended. That's a case where a 1st level spell trumps a 9th level spell.

Dominate Monster lasts 1 day/level. While it's affecting a creature, that creature will follow out any command you gave it. It has this to say concerning Protection from Evil:

Dominate Monster wrote:

Protection from evil or a similar spell can prevent you from exercising control or using the telepathic link while the subject is so warded, but such an effect does not automatically dispel it.

Protection from Evil doesn't end the spell nor does it suppress the spell. It just makes it so you can't actively control the person while the 1 min/level Protection is going. Also, being under the effects of Protection from Evil does not make a person immune to Dominate.

"While under the effects of this spell, the target is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target."

It suppresses existing effects, but prevents new effects.

It prevents any attempts to exercise mental control. That is only one part of Dominate.

[Simon Legrande]

Victor Zajic wrote:

Simon Legrande wrote:

Claxon wrote:

FAQ'ing because while I think you're on to something with it only applying to targeted divination spells, it is less than clear. I think RAI that might be the case, but RAW I feel Scavion is correct.

CRB wrote:

School abjuration; Level ranger 4, sorcerer/wizard 3

Casting Time 1 standard action

Components V, S, M (diamond dust worth 50 gp)

Range touch

Target creature or object touched

Duration 1 hour/level

Saving Throw Will negates (harmless, object); Spell Resistance yes (harmless, object)

The warded creature or object becomes difficult to detect by divination spells such as clairaudience/clairvoyance, locate object, and detect spells. Nondetection also prevents location by such magic items as crystal balls. If a divination is attempted against the warded creature or item, the caster of the divination must succeed on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against a DC of 11 + the caster level of the spellcaster who cast nondetection. If you cast nondetection on yourself or on an item currently in your possession, the DC is 15 + your caster level.

If cast on a creature, nondetection wards the creature's gear as well as the creature itself.

Seems clear enough to me, but apparently that's just me.

That in no way shape or form says it only applies to targeted divinations. It even calls out the 'Detect X' series of spells, which create cones and don't target what-so-ever.

The heart of this debate is if True Seeing counts as "divination spells such as clairaudience/clairvoyance, locate object, and detect spells"

It doesn't clearly call out all divination spells, and it also doesn't call out only those divination spells.

I will have to refer you to the workings on the English language to solve this problem. When is the last time you had this conversation:

You: My brother and I went to see a movie.
Friend: Oh yeah, what movie?
You: We went to see X-Men.
Friend: Wait, wait, who's we?
You: Um, my brother and I.
Friend: OK, you need to be clearer next time.
You: ...

[Scavion]

Simon Legrande wrote:

ZZTRaider wrote:

Simon Legrande wrote:

ZZTRaider wrote:

Simon Legrande wrote:

1. No way should a 3rd level spell trump a 6th level spell.

I don't think this holds. Protection from Evil definitely trumps Dominate Monster, and that's working as intended. That's a case where a 1st level spell trumps a 9th level spell.

Dominate Monster lasts 1 day/level. While it's affecting a creature, that creature will follow out any command you gave it. It has this to say concerning Protection from Evil:

Dominate Monster wrote:

Protection from evil or a similar spell can prevent you from exercising control or using the telepathic link while the subject is so warded, but such an effect does not automatically dispel it.

Protection from Evil doesn't end the spell nor does it suppress the spell. It just makes it so you can't actively control the person while the 1 min/level Protection is going. Also, being under the effects of Protection from Evil does not make a person immune to Dominate.

"While under the effects of this spell, the target is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target."

It suppresses existing effects, but prevents new effects.

It prevents any attempts to exercise mental control. That is only one part of Dominate.

I'll drop a couple of examples on this topic.

1)Target A is warded before attempted domination. Domination fails automatically.

2)Target is dominated then warded. Target is free to act until the duration of Protection from Evil wears off and reverts to being dominated.

In effect, if warded before attempted domination, a 1st level spell does indeed defeat a 9th level spell.

See also Emergency Force Bubble vs Disintegrate.

[Simon Legrande]

Scavion wrote:

I'll drop a couple of examples on this topic.

1)Target A is warded before attempted domination. Domination fails automatically.

2)Target is dominated then warded. Target is free to act until the duration of Protection from Evil wears off and reverts to being dominated.

In effect, if warded before attempted domination, a 1st level spell does indeed defeat a 9th level spell.

See also Emergency Force Bubble vs Disintegrate.

I disagree and think you're missing some of the finer points of Dominate. However, this is a thread about True Seeing vs Nondetection so I don't want to keep it derailed.

[Rikkan]

Simon Legrande wrote:

Nondetection does not say that it blocks all divination spells, just those targeted against you.

That is not true. One of the examples in the Nondetection spell is "Clairaudience/Clairvoyance", which can't target a person.

I always compare Nondetection with Mind Blank since they are so similar.

[Simon Legrande]

Rikkan wrote:

Simon Legrande wrote:

Nondetection does not say that it blocks all divination spells, just those targeted against you.

That is not true. One of the examples in the Nondetection spell is "Clairaudience/Clairvoyance", which can't target a person.

I always compare Nondetection with Mind Blank since they are so similar.

Except Mind Blank is an 8th level spell. And again, just Mind Blank does nothing if you are standing in plain sight. A person with Invisibility and Mind Blank would not be detected by someone with True Seeing.

[Create Mr. Pitt]

I think you're putting too much stock in spell level. If the RAW were completely unclear here spell level might be a single argument in the interpretive arsenal, but as already pointed out it seems pretty clear that Nondetection applies to all divinations. The manner in which this is mitigated is the caster level check. So a high level caster may well be able to overcome the spell, but not because they have cast a sufficiently high level spell in response. Unless the text of the spell were different, at least here, the spell level is irrelevant.

[Barachiel Shina]

Well if True Seeing is blocked, it would mean True Strike also requires a caster level check for it to work. Which makes no sense, since the spell affects your NEXT ATTACK...and why would your next attack be on a target you don't get the +20 bonus on?

I think this part of the spell makes it clear:

If a divination is attempted against the warded creature or item...

This implies that a target is being directly affected by the spell, and thus, needs to make a saving throw against the spell. True Seeing and True Strike do not have saving throws, as their targets are on a specific creature (touched creature for True Seeing and personal for True Strike).

True Seeing and True Strike enhance something you possess already, because even True Seeing is fooled by fog, mundane disguises and those in hiding. Neither are divination spells being attempted against a warded creature, they are spells that have been cast on the caster who then receives a buff.

Heck, from what I can see, if you casted True Seeing and went to touch a creature with Nondetection on to give it True Seeing, it would still bypass Nondetection since it's a harmless spell that buffs the target with an ability, not try and detect or locate it.

[Create Mr. Pitt]

The target of true strike is "you". True Strike grants you a +20 insight bonus. The spell itself is not targeting an opposed creature, so there is no need for a caster level check, just a traditional attack.

[Rikkan]

Barachiel Shina wrote:

I think this part of the spell makes it clear:

If a divination is attempted against the warded creature or item...

This implies that a target is being directly affected by the spell, and thus, needs to make a saving throw against the spell.

Nondetection wrote:

The warded creature or object becomes difficult to detect by divination spells such as clairaudience/clairvoyance, locate object, and detect spells.

Clairaudience/Clairvoyance wrote:

Saving Throw none

[Lifat]

Barachiel Shina wrote:

Well if True Seeing is blocked, it would mean True Strike also requires a caster level check for it to work. Which makes no sense, since the spell affects your NEXT ATTACK...and why would your next attack be on a target you don't get the +20 bonus on?

I think this part of the spell makes it clear:

If a divination is attempted against the warded creature or item...

This implies that a target is being directly affected by the spell, and thus, needs to make a saving throw against the spell. True Seeing and True Strike do not have saving throws, as their targets are on a specific creature (touched creature for True Seeing and personal for True Strike).

True Seeing and True Strike enhance something you possess already, because even True Seeing is fooled by fog, mundane disguises and those in hiding. Neither are divination spells being attempted against a warded creature, they are spells that have been cast on the caster who then receives a buff.

Heck, from what I can see, if you casted True Seeing and went to touch a creature with Nondetection on to give it True Seeing, it would still bypass Nondetection since it's a harmless spell that buffs the target with an ability, not try and detect or locate it.

True Strike is a HORRIBLE comparison. True strike is in no way trying to detect or locate the person being attacked. It gives the caster an insight bonus to an attack roll.

Nondetection in no way says it works on all divination spells. It does work against all detection and location spells.
As others have mentioned... Read Clairaudience/Clairvoyance. Nondetection specifically says it works against that spell. That spell is targeting an area, not a specific person and it offers no saving throw and no spell resistance, so your argument against nondetection working vs. true seeing is simply wrong as far as I can see.
All that being said: I'm not convinced either way about nondetection working against true seeing... I am leaning towards nondetection working.

[DarkKnight27]

Of course Nondetection works against True Seeing. Think of it this way, someone or something cast any of the polymorph school of spells on themselves, normaly True Seeing would discover this as it would see right through it, but the the person or creature then casts Nondetection they at least have a chance as the person or creature with True Seeing now has make a caster level check to get past the Nondetection spell and automatically see through the polymorph spell.

If it didn't then any spell that True Seeing works against, even higher level spells would be useless. And since True Seeing is only a 5th level spell (for clerics) that's a lot of high level spells that would be "trumped" by a mere 5th level spell.

[Korthis]

if that's the case then wouldn't invisibility + nondetection work against see invisible/ trueseeing

[icehawk333]

ZZTRaider wrote:

Simon Legrande wrote:

1. No way should a 3rd level spell trump a 6th level spell.

I don't think this holds. Protection from Evil definitely trumps Dominate Monster, and that's working as intended. That's a case where a 1st level spell trumps a 9th level spell.

And then mind blank trumps wish and the entire divination school, lasts 24 hours, and buffs you against mind effecting spells.

[DarkKnight27]

Korthis wrote:

if that's the case then wouldn't invisibility + nondetection work against see invisible/ trueseeing

It sure does. It still allows a caster level check at least, but it does work.

[Mojorat]

All the spells.listed.in non detection are for detecting simone remotely. It doesn't make you invisible.

[Artanthos]

Simon Legrande wrote:

1. No way should a 3rd level spell trump a 6th level spell.

It happens, with more than one spell.

Quote:

2. If you're standing where you can be seen, Nondetection does nothing for you anyway. No divination is needed to see someone standing right there.

Non-Detection is used in exactly this circumstance. I might be standing right in front of you while you are using Detect Invisible or Detect Evil. You have to make a caser-level check for either of those spells to work.

Quote:

3. If you have Invisibility and Nondetection going, True Seeing sees through the Invisibility then see #2.

Yes, see #2. A person with Non-Detection does force a caster level before detection spells work against him. The question is, would True Seeing fall within scope.

Quote:

4. You can't use True Seeing through a scrying device. Therefore, you can't use True Seeing to remotely view someone with Nondetection.

Scry has a specific list of spells that function vs viewed targets. True Seeing is not on the list.

[DarkKnight27]

Mojorat wrote:

All the spells.listed.in non detection are for detecting simone remotely. It doesn't make you invisible.

Since when is Detect Evil (or other alignment) spells or Detect Magic "remote viewing"? They are AoE divinations that come from you. See Invisibility and True Seeing are both divinations and even though they're not called out specifically they would still be blocked by Nondetection.

[seebs]

Simon Legrande wrote:

4. You can't use True Seeing through a scrying device.

Crystal ball with true seeing is only 80k gold...

[Simon Legrande]

seebs wrote:

Simon Legrande wrote:

4. You can't use True Seeing through a scrying device.

Crystal ball with true seeing is only 80k gold...

And you would have to pay that because True Seeing doesn't work with a crystal ball. See the last sentence of the True Seeing spell.

To address another misreading of my post, if a person is standing in the open with nothing but Nondetection cast in him, he won't be hidden from anyone simply standing nearby and looking at him. You don't need to cast Detect Anything to see a person standing in front of you. Nondetection is not Invisibility. At best you could make the argument that Nondetection will mask their alignment from people using any Detect Alignment spell.

Now if a person with Nondetection then casts Invisibility, they are now hidden from people standing nearby. True Seeing lets a person see things as they are, it nullifies Invisibility. Therefore, someone with True Seeing can see through Invisibility and will see the person with Nondetection standing right there.

PS - Scavion, I will try to answer your PM tonight. It's a real PITA to paste things from my tablet.

[LazarX]

I don't get the point of this question.

Non-Detection does not make you invisible. So you're visible to normal sight as well as true-seeing.

What the Non-Detection spell does is protect you from detect spells and ranged divination such as scrying, which in most cases means that the target is not going to be in the range of True Seeing.

There's no ruling neccessary, the spell text itself spells things out quite clearly.

The warded creature or object becomes difficult to detect by divination spells such as clairaudience/clairvoyance, locate object, and detect spells. Nondetection also prevents location by such magic items as crystal balls. If a divination is attempted against the warded creature or item, the caster of the divination must succeed on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against a DC of 11 + the caster level of the spellcaster who cast nondetection. If you cast nondetection on yourself or on an item currently in your possession, the DC is 15 + your caster level.

If cast on a creature, nondetection wards the creature's gear as well as the creature itself.

True Seeing is not in the class of spells that Non-Detection is suppsoed to ward you against. It will protect you against the Paladin trying to Detect Evil on you, even if True Seeing is cast on said Paladin. If you're trying to be invisible from said Paladin, True Seeing will defeat your invisibility, but non-detection can still protect you from being detected as evil.

[Mojorat]

DarkKnight27 wrote:

Mojorat wrote:

All the spells.listed.in non detection are for detecting simone remotely. It doesn't make you invisible.

Since when is Detect Evil (or other alignment) spells or Detect Magic "remote viewing"? They are AoE divinations that come from you. See Invisibility and True Seeing are both divinations and even though they're not called out specifically they would still be blocked by Nondetection.

Its a 60 foot cone. Its shifting th revelation or detection away to reveal something at a distance.

Neither see invisibility or true seeing are aoe. They just change your vision.