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"GM used a table reroll (due to his PFS shirt) to allow the damage to be rerolled."
Garge, I just wanted to note that this is nice of your GM, but it's not permitted. While a GM can "donate" his re-roll to a player, (1) the re-roll can only revise a PC's roll, not an NPCs; (2) it can only re-roll a d20 roll, not damage; (3) it can't be used once the results (dead) are known.
I mention this, not to impugn the GM, but because this is a public record that several new GMs will read, and I want to avoid confusion.
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Also, alchemists get a 20-foot range increment. If an alchemist is willing to take a range penalty on his ranged touch attack, he can be a comfortable distance from his target. (Maybe the Investigator is different; I don't know.)
Although, from reading on these boards that clarification won't stop GM's from doing whatever they please with these issues.
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I think the biggest issue seems to be the pyramid - and how it is handled.
I used three Dwarvenforge DoE and the pyramid from DoE Extension as 'monster'. I ensured they where in battle order and then I placed the pyramid 60 feet from the light source. That was the start of the encounter - with the pyramid still flat footed. Yes - it is up to interpretation if it readies and action to trample once someone moves up to 40 or if it starts moving.
Crowe has knowledge Arcana, Quinn can do any knowledge checks untrained. For a group of newbies as good moment to introduce them to knowledge checks and maybe giving them a hint what best to do (off course assuming at least one of two dice rolls is decent).
Surprise still can happen. My second table had Quinn scouting 50 foot ahead close to the end of dim light. He heard the pyramid (it can only move 30 feet in the surprise round - so still in darkness - but it was too late when he saw it.
But I feel I read much to often here that the group got automatically trampled on the first contact.
I can't say I did everything right myself. But I feel too many posts here rather complain that it is too deadly instead of trying to find ways to help new players and how to make it less deadly for them.
Edit: Thanks to TOZ removed some wrong assumptions before too many people read them.
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I think the biggest issue seems to be the pyramid - and how it is handled.
I'm surprised I haven't read a single example of
And then the pyramid tried to trample - and failed.
Overrun is a combat maneuver. It should have a dice roll to succeed. The pyramid has a CMB of 11 - Jirelle a CMD of 18. It isn't automatic that the pyramid just overruns everyone.
Trample specifically says it requires no roll.
This works just like the overrun combat maneuver, but the trampling creature does not need to make a check, it merely has to move over opponents in its path.
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Although, from reading on these boards that clarification won't stop GM's from doing whatever they please with these issues.
You keep repeating this. You keep getting told that it isn't really so, although there IS considerable allowable GM variation.
I'm genuinely curious. What are you trying to achieve?
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Although, from reading on these boards that clarification won't stop GM's from doing whatever they please with these issues.
You keep repeating this. You keep getting told that it isn't really so, although there IS considerable allowable GM variation.
I'm genuinely curious. What are you trying to achieve?
I keep repeating this same statement because I hear from GM's that they are doing things that are softballing and not running it straight from one side of their mouths, while they are telling me this really isn't so out of the other.
As to what I'm hoping to accomplish, some honest reflection both by Paizo and PFS GM's.
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PFS Scenarios contain written tactics that are a default assumption for the scenario. However, GM's have the freedom to vary from those tactics if the actions of the players would nullify those tactics, or dictate other actions from the enemies. Pathfinder Modules sometimes contain tactics for the creatures, and sometimes do not. Largely, these are meant to be inferred by a GM, as from a design standpoint they are made with a home game setting in mind. Even when sanctioned for PFS play, and if even if they do contain tactics written out for the enemies, GM's are still able to adjust to what actually happens at the table.
Some of the text for the encounter that has been repeatedly come up can be interpreted in a number of different ways (and there may also have been some issues with exactly how the rules for certain abilities work, but that's something that can happen with any GM, even when given time to prep a module). Yes, the way that a GM interprets that can lead to varying degrees of difficulty from table to table. That doesn't mean that any of them are doing anything "wrong." When playing modules that are sanctioned for PFS play (including Free RPG Day Modules), you can expect a bit more variation than you typically will when playing scenarios that are specifically written for the PFS campaign.
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I keep repeating this same statement because I hear from GM's that they are doing things that are softballing and not running it straight from one side of their mouths, while they are telling me this really isn't so out of the other.As to what I'm hoping to accomplish, some honest reflection both by Paizo and PFS GM's.
It might be that we disagree what PFS is about.
PFS
Do I follow the rules - YES
Do I follow the tactics - YES
Do I try to be always fair to my players - YES
Do I run every scenario always the same way - NO
As a good GM I find it is crucial to adapt to the table, the play style and what they want out of a game.
I guess your assumption is - but you can't do all four together. My experience is - you can always hinder or help a group - and the moment you do this you will change the difficulty - to the better - or worse.
There are hundreds of moments in a scenario where I as GM make a difference. A new player who doesn't know the rules fully yet - I might pause while he is doing his turn and suggest - make a five foot step here and you get flanking.
I wouldn't help an experienced player in the same way - even if this means he is at a disadvantage to the newbie - unless he is close to die or TPK.
As said above
I follow the rules
I follow the tactics
I try to be always fair to my players
I don't run every scenario always the same way.
This is the difference to have a human GM and not a computer. I regard this as positive for PFS. But your opinion might be different.
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Stepping aside from the "tactics" discussion for a minute, I wanted to add that this scenario ran quite long for a PFS time slot. Other than a brief stop at "Stereotypical House o'Camels" and descriptions of the rooms the only time we weren't in combat was the five minute laughter break when one of the players blindly guessed the combination to the BBEG door on the first try. And they still didn't get through all the rooms in 5 hours. (They skipped the central room to go down the secret passages first.)
5 players - one Quinn, 3 level 2s, and a 4th level crypt breaker alchemist. The enemies weren't much of a challenge for the alchemist so the combats weren't overly long.
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Stepping aside from the "tactics" discussion for a minute, I wanted to add that this scenario ran quite long for a PFS time slot. Other than a brief stop at "Stereotypical House o'Camels" and descriptions of the rooms the only time we weren't in combat was the five minute laughter break when one of the players blindly guessed the combination to the BBEG door on the first try. And they still didn't get through all the rooms in 5 hours. (They skipped the central room to go down the secret passages first.)
5 players - one Quinn, 3 level 2s, and a 4th level crypt breaker alchemist. The enemies weren't much of a challenge for the alchemist so the combats weren't overly long.
Modules, even Free RPG Day modules, are not designed to fit in the same time slot as a normal PFS Scenario. Generally, they tend to fit in around six hours.
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I had fun on this scenario, our table of murder hobos consisted of.
We had
4 barbarian
2 barb/2 rage chem (me)
2 barb/1 sam
2 ninja/1 gunslinger
warpriest pregen
4 conjure wizard
The barbarians eventually smashed through the DR on the pyramid. I was a little intimidated afte that first fight. Then the rest of the encounters were a joke. 4 HP Skeletons that were destroyed on power attacks alone.
Although we circled back ont he swarm and figured something was in that boat so I threw a bomb at. Which the DM responded by saying, the only worse thing than a murder hobo is a metagaming murder hobo as a swarm comes out.
The boss died in the last fight as we powered up before it. The party killed the mummy. I critted and one shot the other thing with 32 str.
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Modules, even Free RPG Day modules, are not designed to fit in the same time slot as a normal PFS Scenario. Generally, they tend to fit best in around six hour slots.Stepping aside from the "tactics" discussion for a minute, I wanted to add that this scenario ran quite long for a PFS time slot. Other than a brief stop at "Stereotypical House o'Camels" and descriptions of the rooms the only time we weren't in combat was the five minute laughter break when one of the players blindly guessed the combination to the BBEG door on the first try. And they still didn't get through all the rooms in 5 hours. (They skipped the central room to go down the secret passages first.)
5 players - one Quinn, 3 level 2s, and a 4th level crypt breaker alchemist. The enemies weren't much of a challenge for the alchemist so the combats weren't overly long.
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As to what I'm hoping to accomplish, some honest reflection both by Paizo and PFS GM's.Are you sure your methods are the best course to your goal then?
Would you suggest something different? This is the only GM thread I found.
I have already written a poor review of the module, because in my opinion the setting can't over come the extremely poorly written encounters.
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In terms of trample, it does not require the use of a charge (see overrun). You can trample them anyways. Choosing not to I guess is an option.
Since both Trample and Charge are full round actions they cannot be done in the same round.
I wonder how many GMs are killing people due to a misunderstanding of the Trample Rules. The Pyramid should only be able to move 30 ft with a Trample Action.
I know a lot of GM's killed characters in a certain other scenario 5 when they allowed a critter to trample in a surprise round.
Trample wrote: As a full-round action, a creature with the trample ability can attempt to overrun any creature that is at least one size category Smaller than itself. This works just like the overrun combat maneuver
Overrun wrote: As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square.
Charge wrote: Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move.
I know you have lots of stars but I think you are wrong. You can not overrun multiple targets unless you have the "Charge through combat feat". So how can you charge through a enemy and hit another enemy if you are not even allowed to charge through a ally.
I have not seen the stat block for the creature mentioned but does it have feats that allow it to bypass the normal overrun, charge, or trample rules?
Trampling multiple targets? yep that works. but charging through people and hitting people on the other side of someone while trampling. That is not in the rules even in the overrun rules. Is it in FAQ somewhere?
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Modules, even Free RPG Day modules, are not designed to fit in the same time slot as a normal PFS Scenario. Generally, they tend to fit in around six hours.
Of the free RPG Day Modules this one and Dawn of the Scarlet Sun run long. MOFF and the We Be Goblins scenarios play fine in a PFS slot.
(I actually have 3 stars if the reporting system ever gets fixed. Just wanted to give a first-hand report of the play length of this scenario for GMs planning to run it in the future.)
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I've generally found (also from firsthand experience) that Master of the Fallen Fortress can be a tight squeeze for a regular slot. It's certainly shorter than most of the other Free RPG Day Modules, but still, in my experience, longer than a normal PFS scenario. Same goes for We Be Goblins (and more so for Too) unless you cut back on a lot of the gobliny RP, which seems to always be what players enjoy the most. I've almost always blocked out a six hour time slot for these, and when I haven't they've been very rushed - "okay, you finish killing the monsters, you search the room, you find three potions, you identify them, moving onto the next room..." - which, for me, isn't the point of a RPG. Personal preferences, I guess.
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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Charging through people and hitting people on the other side of someone while trampling. That is not in the rules even in the overrun rules. Is it in FAQ somewhere?
Who is doing that? All I see is a pyramid starting off on one side of a group of adventurers charging down the corridor trampling everybody in a square it passes through, usually ending up on the far side of the group.
It's not charging through people; it's trampling across them. Trample is obviously not restricted to a single enemy; the description of the trample ability explicitly mentions "targets" (plural), not "the target". The rules also describe trample as possibly passing over a creature multiple times in one round, so it's clear that trampling a creature does not stop movement.
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I've generally found (also from firsthand experience) that Master of the Fallen Fortress can be a tight squeeze for a regular slot. It's certainly shorter than most of the other Free RPG Day Modules, but still, in my experience, longer than a normal PFS scenario. Same goes for We Be Goblins (and more so for Too) unless you cut back on a lot of the gobliny RP, which seems to always be what players enjoy the most.
Hmmm, never had that problem with MoFF.
As far as WBG 1 and 2, they tend to speed up locally precisely because people get so into the gobliny role-playing. Say the first thing that pops into your head, get bored if there's too much blabbing and not enough "fun." Head around the next corner. By Zarongel if Poog has a wand of fireball she's going to USE a wand of fireball! Who cares where the other goblins are?
And the GM too just goes for maximum mayhem since there really aren't any "tactical" enemies. More time is spent marking the spread of the inevitable fires than rolling dice. Needless to say, WBG is incredibly lethal in our area (but no one cares).
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Yes the question is doing both a trample and a charge at the same time; since trample is a full round action as stated in the rules, how can the pyramid trample and charge (or double move). The way the rules read the pyramid can only move it's regular move 30 ft. while trampling, it can't charge or double move to 60 ft and trample.
June stated trample is like overrun and you can overrun and charge hence you can trample and charge. But you can't overrun multiple targets hence you can't trample and charge over multiple targets.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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Trample is like overrun in some ways, unlike overrun in others.
It doesn't obey all the rules of overrun. For one thing, it doesn't require an attack roll; overrun does. It can also, explicitly, attack multiple targets; overrun can't. So saying "trample can't do this, because overrun can't" isn't a very compelling argument.
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That is the argument people are using to allow a trample a full round action and a charge which is also a full round action to be done concurrently. June made the argument that they can be done together because trample is like overrun.
Either way it's very confusing and I wish the game designers would clarify because I have played at tables where both ways have been ruled and in this particular scenario it makes the difference between a TPK or the party having the option to spread out and thus stopping the trample attack on the entire party every round. The party can spread out with only a 5 ft square between them and only the first 2 party members can be trampled on any given round, then the party shuffles and heals with the front guy attacking and retreating thus allowing a smart party using smart tactics to overcome this without dieing.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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If we really want to argue the minutiae of the wording of the rules, trample requires a full-round action, but nowhere mentions actually moving any distance as part of the trample. So going by the strictest interpretation of the rules you can't actually trample anything unless you start off in the same square as it, and you don't move away afterwards.
This is, fairly obviously, ridiculous (the description of trample talks about movement). So the only question is how far the creature can move while trampling; the distance it would cover in a move action, or the distance it could cover in a charge. Expect table variance.
Senior Developer
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Hey everyone,
As the writer of Risen From the Sands, I wanted to pop in here and address some of your concerns, and try to give some explanations behind things.
First off, it looks like a lot of people had fun with the adventure, even with its difficulty, so I appreciate those comments. I hope that even those who found the module really hard still managed to have some fun with it. If not, I apologize.
First off, it's important to point out that the Free RPG Day module has to serve a number of masters, including marketing as well as PFS, while not actually being designed as solely a marketing product or as a PFS scenario. This can make it hard to for one 16-page product to do everything it needs to, and in the case of Risen From the Sands, I think it failed trying to serve all those masters.
Regarding the pregens, I definitely agree that they are not well-suited for this adventure. One of the key marketing goals of this product was to preview four of the new classes from the Advanced Class Guide. At the time the adventure was written, the final rules for the classes were not yet complete, nor did we know which classes would be used. As a result, the adventure was not written with the four pregens in mind. In fact, those four pregens were picked because at the time we needed to send this to the printer, those were the only four that we had art for. Thus we ended up with the swashbuckler and the investigator, which are underpowered for this adventure.
At the same time, a lot of the ACG classes get a good bump at 4th level, such as the bloodrager's spellcasting, the investigator's studied strike, and the warpriest's channel energy. All of these would have helped the pregens in this module, but the module was assigned as a 3rd-level adventure – again, not knowing the ACG classes’ abilities while writing the adventure ended up with less than optimal choices to play through the module.
In this case, it looks like doing previews of the ACG classes was not the best choice for this adventure, and in the future, we can hopefully take this as a learning experience and not repeat the same mistakes.
Regarding some specific concerns, Quinn’s stone fist not overcoming the constructs’ DR was definitely an oversight. I should have caught it, and it should have been caught in development, as well, but it slipped by us. In play, I think it’s easy enough to say that stone fist would overcome hardness 8, but this is not always an option in PFS play.
The same goes for detect magic and Spellcraft. Oloch is the only spellcaster with detect magic, and with just 6 skill points, I didn’t put a rank in Spellcraft. Crowe has Spellcraft, of course, but he can’t cast spells yet. This was another goof.
Another thing to consider is the space constraints of a 16-page module (which ends up being only 11 pages with the pregens and OGL/ad). Fitting an entire adventure into that space is challenging, and a number of things had to be cut in development. I did my best to write for the length, but once you add art and actually lay out the text, we almost always find that some elements need to be cut. One example of this is the rolling pyramid encounter, which originally mentioned the possibility of moving through its space to get past it. Another was a cache of useful items that could be found outside the pyramid. Unfortunately, taken together, all of these probably made the adventure much harder than it should have been.
In the end, this kind of feedback is important, and I hope that we can learn from our mistakes this year to make better Free RPG Day products in the years to come. Thanks for your comments and criticisms – they’re all valuable.
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I keep repeating this same statement because I hear from GM's that they are doing things that are softballing and not running it straight from one side of their mouths, while they are telling me this really isn't so out of the other.
That is coming extremely close to calling me a liar and I don't appreciate it (since I am the one who talked about running it straight I most definitely am taking that statement personally).
I'll reiterate my position.
1) I softballed when running it for 4 pregens, 3 played by brand new players
2) The softballing that I did is quite legal in PFS
3) It is even more legal for non PFS
4) I was more liberal in allowing creative tactics than I might otherwise have been
5) That liberality is also allowed in PFS. Partly precisely because what is cool and creative for a newby may be hackneyed and cheesy for an experienced player
6) I did NOT do any of the things that I'm forbidden to do. I changed no stats, changed no ACs, rolled all my dice openly, etc.
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Hey everyone,
As the writer of Risen From the Sands, I wanted to pop in here and address some of your concerns, and try to give some explanations behind things.
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Thank you very much for that explanation. It helps a lot.
I mentioned this in my review, but I REALLY found the Egyptian flavour very, very well done. Please write more Osirion stuff :-)
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Rob,
Thank you for addressing concerns, and explaining your process. I organized 6 tables for Free RPG day and while the pyramid was intimedating to be sure, most parties simply took the tample and then ran into the pyramid where we had decided as a group of GMs the contruct could not follow.... what was a little less "fun" was the high precentage of deaths from a certain item that is found, but only has a way of being dealt with if you have detect magic and spellcraft, which luckly most tables had, and the certain affliction that many people contracted near the end. Placing the adventure so far away from a large settlement and therefore purhased cures for said affliction is rather harsh, and earned a lot of hard feelings. Over all the Module was very well receaved and there is a line of GMs in my lodge waiting to run it for those who couldn't make it out to Free RPG day or were trying out other systems that day.
While I respect the opinions of those who ran it and didn't like it, I will say I both ran and played it Saturday, and almost every player at my tables had a blast, even those who died
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I know you have lots of stars but I think you are wrong. You can not overrun multiple targets unless you have the "Charge through combat feat". So how can you charge through a enemy and hit another enemy if you are not even allowed to charge through a ally.
I have not seen the stat block for the creature mentioned but does it have feats that allow it to bypass the normal overrun, charge, or trample rules?
Trampling multiple targets? yep that works. but charging through people and hitting people on the other side of someone while trampling. That is not in the rules even in the overrun rules. Is it in FAQ somewhere?
Wow. I guess when it rains it pours...
Roysier,
Here is the trample ability in full: Trample (Ex)
As a full-round action, a creature with the trample ability can attempt to overrun any creature that is at least one size category Smaller than itself. This works just like the overrun combat maneuver, but the trampling creature does not need to make a check, it merely has to move over opponents in its path. Targets of a trample take an amount of damage equal to the trampling creature’s slam damage + 1-1/2 times its Str modifier. Targets of a trample can make an attack of opportunity, but at a –4 penalty. If targets forgo an attack of opportunity, they can attempt to avoid the trampling creature and receive a Reflex save to take half damage. The save DC against a creature’s trample attack is 10 + 1/2 the creature’s HD + the creature’s Str modifier (the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). A trampling creature can only deal trampling damage to each target once per round, no matter how many times its movement takes it over a target creature.
In essence the Trample ability is a special kind of ability that combines Overrun and Charge in a full-round action. It has it's own effects(described above). It occurs when the creature moves over you, it's movement is part of the full round action so it could conceivable move it full movement or twice that as a part of a charge
(Trample). However unlike a normal overrun you can't choose to avoid it witout forgoing the AOO and making a reflex save.
Think of it like a rampaging elephant stuck in a 10' wide tunnel and your blocking it from escape, it rushes toward the exit stepping on anything in its path.
Hope this helps.
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I ran this on Saturday night and although we had no deaths, there were plenty of wounds when the scenario was done.
We had 6 players all playing pregens.
2 Swashbucklers
2 Bloodragers
1 Warpriest
1 Investigator
the Party did not set off the rock trap, therefore avoiding the portcullis from dropping. After the battle with the pyramid they went in and delt with the Mimic which had 2 grappled and 4 weapons in the slime.
They went on to the False Pharaoh, and then to the left where they delt with the skeleton archers. The Hunter was next and so was his kitty. not hurting as bad as they thought they would be they then set off down the long hallway, they only managed to activate the Fire elemental Obelisk and get the fire gem. Further down the hall when the Investigator found the trap and the door into the Anubis Guardian Statues. One of the bloodRagers went up to the door and attempted to open it without the key. He wend down with a crit (not dead just down) the other Bloodrager get it for 7 or 8 i think.
At this time the decide to run and close the doors behind them and make their way outside to rest. They manage to get the doors closed and make their way out to the entryway. Where they use up what is left of the wand and their healing spells.
They were able to rest per my horrible rolls to see if they get attacked, alas no.
Back in and healed up they decide to go right where the Bloodrager who tried to open the door to the BBEG toumb jumps into the first reed boat and then to the final boat. They are able to dispatch the swarm with Alchemist fire and on they go. The Harem room was not as hard as they thought it would be the Qarpriest and the Bloodragers took good care of them, with help from the two Swashbucklers. Through the secret door they go out of all heals at this time. The large mummy blocks the way and starts to chip away at the PCs in the doorway. The mummy was then able to come over and swing through the doorway and hit as needed and back away (and at +14 just needed a 4 or better as the Bloodragers saved most of the rage for the end. After getting blasted by the Large zombie and hurting pretty bad they all surround the BBEG. He is able to drop one when he takes his final hit from the group and is dispatched. I think all in all one of the Bloodragers went down twice and the Warpriest once and one of the Swashbucklers once.
Glorious times had by all...
OH and two of the players are under 10 and doing this every week almost, and loving it. though the younger one was getting tired in the last two fights.
That took longer that I had anticipated. I would like to see how it runs with just the 4 pregens and 4 premade characters PFS and NON PFS.
On that note I do agree that the pyramid was overpowered for the scenario level, and the BBEG hitting for +14 OUCH, that would have killed the party if I had been rolling better.
All in all a good scenario and I think a good prelude to Mummy's Mask.
Just my 2 cents.
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Hey everyone,
As the writer of Risen From the Sands, I wanted to pop in here and address some of your concerns, and try to give some explanations behind things.
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Thank you very much for that explanation. It helps a lot.
I mentioned this in my review, but I REALLY found the Egyptian flavour very, very well done. Please write more Osirion stuff :-)
Amen on the flavor, please write more Osirion stuff.
Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville
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Was there any discussion at all at maybe changing the level of the module to a higher number, like 4 or 5, as written? There are at least three if not more encounters that are way over tier.
I wanna also ask, why give the pyramid hardness for a 3rd level mod?
Thanks for popping in Rob, 'priciate it.
Regional Venture-Coordinator, Gulf
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Hey everyone,
As the writer of Risen From the Sands, I wanted to pop in here and address some of your concerns, and try to give some explanations behind things.
This is why Paizo rocks. It isn't just the quality and richness of the product. It is that every employee is just who they are, a fan of our favorite hobby.
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Hey everyone,
As the writer of Risen From the Sands, I wanted to pop in here and address some of your concerns...
One: thanks for providing some context to address the concerns that some folks had.
Two: for what its worth, I played this with the swashbuckler(in a party of 5 pregens and one non-healer regular PFS character)and I still had fun. I can't say that my character was terribly effective, but she moved around a lot and looked good doing it. I also really enjoyed the Osirion flavor.
Three: There is no third thing.
Four: The first encounter in the temple proper was very much enjoyed at our table, even as we came insanely close to a TPK :)
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Venture-Captain, Ireland—Belfast
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Hey everyone,
As the writer of Risen From the Sands, I wanted to pop in here and address some of your concerns, and try to give some explanations behind things.
Rob (and Paizo as a company): Thanks for coming here and saying this. Also please don't think for one second that this is not a good module. It is a good module!
You ran into difficulties fitting into a dozen odd pages a scenario to promote not only PFRPG in general but the ACG classes in particular without knowing what their mechanics looked like or what ones you'd eventually use & make it suitable for Society play while still being just right for FRPG day.....? Well it's not a huge surprise you did but that you ran into so few is no mean achievement!
Outside of society (or FRPG day) play some of the issues either don't arise or are quickly fixed. E.g, The diseased low level PCs far from a city, the hardness of the stone, the spell craft/detect magic problem all easily fixed as would sorting out the trampling issue.
When run as part of PFS we can't really be so creative & given that I'd guess the PFS brigade are often the ones who'd run this as part of FRPG day the desire to run it as a showcase for the Society is pretty strong. So trying to get the rough edges smoothed out for PFS games becomes an issue where time is a factor & hopefully we'll see things sorted out!
I repeat though It is still a good module!
Hey everyone,
As the writer of Risen From the Sands, I wanted to pop in here and address some of your concerns, and try to give some explanations behind things.
Rob: Kudos to you for coming here and giving us a peak behind the curtain. It would have been easy to simply ignore the thread, especially given the nature of some of the posts (mine included). It does show that you (and Paizo) care about the game and the customers.
Thank you also for the insight. I can certainly understand the difficulties you were presented with and how that ultimately affected the overall outcome. As a long time GM myself, I also understand the oversight with regard to the Stone Fist ability and the hardness of the constructs (despite my previous statement). Obviously our table didn't run the swashbuckler, and the bloodrager died pretty quick, so we didn't really get a chance to see those (not your fault). I will say that the adventure did do some nice things with regard to Quinn as it pertained to his skills. Being able to read the hieroglyphs was pretty cool and the trapfinder ability definitely paid off when it came to the pit trap.
While I still think the adventure missed the mark when it came to showcasing the new classes (which was largely beyond your control) it was still a fun adventure. Hopefully this parts where the product missed the mark can simply be taken as a learning experience for next time. I certainly wouldn't hesitate to run the adventure for a regular group that is a bit more prepared and has had a chance to build the characters themselves.
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Rob: I would just like to echo everyone else's thanks for the insights.
If you take the PreGens out of the equation I think it is a fairly decent dungeon crawl with a lot of flavor, though too difficult as an intro mod. Unfortunately, since they take up 4 pages of the adventure, the PreGens are integral to it and greatly lower the appeal of the rest of it.
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Personally I had fun playing this module, we had 3 PFS legal characters and 2 of the pregens. No one died but it was close.
June-In your Trample charge I have a few questions how you play it. Do you also follow all the charge rules? I have them repeated down below from the PRD.
I assume you are picking a target and charging to it with no obstructions and at least 10 ft. of movement to get to it. So my first question to you would who is the target, the first person in line and then you go to them and choose a new target, or are you picking the last person within line of site and charging to that person and in essence moving right through them and trampling everyone in between. Then using the overrun rule to trample the last person and move through them.
And are you saying that trample ignores this rule in paragraph 3 below: "or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge." so I think you are saying you cannot charge through a ally unless you want to trample them but when you trample you can ignore this rule for the all creatures being trampled.
Charge
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move.
Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.
If you don't have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can't charge that opponent.
You can't take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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...Unfortunately, since they take up 4 pages of the adventure, the PreGens are integral to it and greatly lower the appeal of the rest of it.
Meh. The pre-gens in "Master of the Fallen Fortress" take up just as many pages but don't seem all that integral to the adventure.
At some point, we'll be able to use the normal PFS-legal 4th-level pre-gens with this adventure, and the pages with the ACG characters will fade in importance.
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Rob, I'm hoping that one of the "lessons learned" is to design the pre-gens first, and then write the adventure to challenge their defined abilities.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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I think people are getting hung up over the word 'charge'.
Trample is a special ability that allows a creature to do damage merely by moving through a square; it doesn't have to do anything else.
In a normal round, when not taking any other actions, a creature can move double its speed. The question is whether or not trampling as you go limits the movement to just the creature's speed, or whether it can move the full distance it would normally manage.
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Senior Developer
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One other point I'd like to make is that the module wasn't written as a PFS scenario - it was written as a standalone adventure that was then sanctioned to be run for PFS credit. This is an important distinction, I think, when people talk about too many combat encounters for a 1 XP scenario, or the inability to use other 4th-level pregens. Those sorts of things had not even been addressed when planning and writing the adventure.
Honestly, seeing how many PFS people were running this for Free RPG Day makes me think that going forward, we should construct our Free RPG Day offering as a PFS-friendly scenario first, standalone adventure second.
I can't make any guarantees - although I'm Senior Developer at Paizo, I'm just the writer of this particular adventure, and as I said before, the Free RPG Day module serves many masters. A lot of the planning and goals for Free RPG Day are out of my hands, but I will do my best to pass along the concerns and recommendations raised this year to hopefully make future years better for everyone.
Thanks again for your comments!
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PFS Organizers are Paizo's 'boots on the ground' in regards to marketing. If a store is running Free RPG Day adventures and wants to run Pathfinder, the most likely people to get recruited to do that are the local PFS organizers. And if the local PFS organizers are going to run it, then the local PFS players are going to play it.
With that said, I think it's more important to gear the Free RPG Day adventures towards recruitment of new players first and PFS-friendly second.
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To be honest, I got into tabletop miniatures role playing through Pathfinder Society. I did not start any type of home game until about a year and a half later.
This sort of goes into the options of how a new player would prefer their games: creativity/open-ended options versus a more structured format of PFS. I believe that I fell into the latter category. Though there is the third category of structured, but able to bend the rules for creativity; however, since PFS is viewed as RAW, it creates a chasm between the two sides.
As with the thread in General Discussion, this will sort of be a back and forth between the two side.
As for the author, so I am assuming that you said that there were many more options to deal with many of the encounters, but due to to space, many were cut off. That sort of feels like a river of lava that has supposed to have a stone bridge across. I understand that it is not your fault, but since the aides that could have been helpful were removed, the challenge increased exponentially. With people not knowing the background to how things work when creating a module, I think that is why the responses were vitriolic from many players.
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And are you saying that trample ignores this rule in paragraph 3 below: "or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge." so I think you are saying you cannot charge through a ally unless you want to trample them but when you trample you can ignore this rule for the all creatures being trampled
Correct it ignores this rule as the only thing that this ability is getting from charge is the 10' start, the straight line and double movement). If an ally happens to be in the way, it has to make a save as well.
How I ran it as follows:
PC's traveled through causeway. One person had DV 60' so I alerted them that there was a 10' pyramid in the center. They waited at 60' for minute then sent Quinn who traveled to 40'(triggering the pyramid to move as stated in the mod, I had everyone roll init since both parties were aware of each other, so there was no surprise round).
It won intitiative so the pyramid as a full round action would trample through the causeway 30' or 60'. (remember Trample works like Overrun which is taken during your move or in this case as part of a charge(both as a full round action while the trample ability is used) So the pyramid tramples through everyone while its moving in a straight line (in the case of this mod). Causing everyone in the path of its movement area up 60' to make an AOO or make a reflex save for half damage.
Also if the area was large a creature could conceivably trample its entire movement rate 30' without going in a straight line. As the trample ability does not say it must move straight, only when charging does this take effect.
Hope this clarifies.
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One other point I'd like to make is that the module wasn't written as a PFS scenario - it was written as a standalone adventure that was then sanctioned to be run for PFS credit. This is an important distinction, I think, when people talk about too many combat encounters for a 1 XP scenario, or the inability to use other 4th-level pregens. Those sorts of things had not even been addressed when planning and writing the adventure.
Honestly, seeing how many PFS people were running this for Free RPG Day makes me think that going forward, we should construct our Free RPG Day offering as a PFS-friendly scenario first, standalone adventure second.
I can't make any guarantees - although I'm Senior Developer at Paizo, I'm just the writer of this particular adventure, and as I said before, the Free RPG Day module serves many masters. A lot of the planning and goals for Free RPG Day are out of my hands, but I will do my best to pass along the concerns and recommendations raised this year to hopefully make future years better for everyone.
Thanks again for your comments!
All the slots ran at my local store were PFS credit tables. Being brand spanking new to PFS my only character was level 1 so I could only play this scenario on free PRG day for PFS credit. I chose to play the warpriest and had a ball with him.
I think from hearing on these boards many other people ran this for PFS credit. Perhaps more were running it for credit that Paizo realized before hand. It would be a good thing to consider making a more PFS friendly offering.