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It's NOT FUN when death is GUARRENTEED from the very beginning.
I found the module to be both challenging and very fun. I wish more modules of this difficulty would be published and sanctioned.
The group I was in cleared all fights, though one person nearly died from the mummy rot as we force marched back to town.
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Ran a 4 player table,one of each pregen.
All the Investigator and Swashbuckler could do in most combats was aid. Burned thru the 25 charges in short order.
The investigator was in the negatives 3 times.
The boss at the end could hit anyone on a 5 or better and the party was struggling to hit him at all.
Even the one offensive extract the investigator had was usless against the hardness of the monsters. Stone Fist only ignores hardness BELOW 8. Everything had at least an 8 hardness.
They had to run from the boss, with the War priest dying.
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Ran two tables of this today:
1st table - 5 players - Levels 4, 3, 3, 3, 2
2nd table - 4 players - Levels 3, 3, 2, 2
The pyramid fight took them a long time. After having watched the conversations here with great interest, I decided on two things:
1 - The pyramid can't trample if it's not charging. It can't charge if it doesn't have room to "pick up speed" (i.e. the same way characters can't charge unless they have 10ft of room). 2 - I am known for rewarding out of the box ideas and creativity normally, but I doubled my open-mindedness for this encounter. Tough and long fight for both tables (even with me softballing its trample ability), and almost killed a PC at table 2, but the solutions both tables came up with were awesome and got them through it!
Examples - using caltrops to try and affect the pyramid's movement, the Investigator using his Sanctuary to keep it from moving at/past him for a round, half the party helping the Warpriest use his sword like a giant lever/crowbar trying to tip the thing on its side so its wheels would be up in the air, throwing rusting powder underneath it to mess with any metal hinges/parts in the wheel mechanism, using a sort of "called shot" to try and specifically damage wheels on one corner of the pyramid to make it lop-sided and either slowed down or immobilize it, and a few more I can't recall this second.
My first group circled left and made short work of the architect, boats, skeletons, and zombies. They found the passage and immediately went for the Pharaoh directly. *That* fight was long and difficult, and several PCs were in negatives before it was over. The party's resources were so drained at that point that after using the last of the Warpriest's wand after fighting the hunter that they would just not bother with trying to get the elemental gem, and they left weary but happy.
My second group went in a circle around the "front" areas before moving to the "back". They had a neat idea for getting the elemental gem. They had one party member "summon" a water elemental, and as soon as it arrived, another would get the gem out of the fire obelisk. As soon as that was done, another would throw the dust of dryness (from the boat) at the elemental, which instantly destroyed it with a failed save. It was over before it even started (elemental pulled a 1 on his initiative).
When they got to the harem, only one of them saw through things, but thought it would be funny to get the others to be buddy-buddy with the ladies (but was ready for danger just in case). They had such a good conversation that they made both ladies Helpful (with lots of room to spare), and offered to take them away from the Pyramid, have Pathfinder agents teach them about the modern world in exchange for their knowledge of the ancient world, and then arrange passage for them to relocate to Geb. The ladies were rather excited by this, and gave the PCs their items to help free them.
...and then the wheels came off. Despite using the elemental gem, the Pharaoh and his pet got in many good licks, causing the death of the PC (Warpriest) who was first to break into the pyramid. As the Pharaoh gloated about being able to leave, the Swashbuckler charged, missed, and then got a critical in the face that killed her outright. The party's cleric dropped but stabilized at -8, leaving the Tengu musket master and the Pharaoh alone. The Pharaoh was on fire from the elemental's Burn ability (before said elemental disappeared), and was low on health, so he booked it to try and get out of the gunslinger's line of fire before doing a stop-drop-and-roll. The gunslinger drew her sword and chased the Pharaoh down and waited until he was prone before getting close enough to attack. She didn't beat his DR, and he hit her from prone dropping her to -9. Gloating, he didn't even bother to finish her off - he just casually walked out, leaving her to die.
That's when the zombie ladies, who had been watching peeking from around the door to the antechamber, ran out and rolled wisdom checks high enough to stabilize the gunslinger - turns out that making friends instead of killing them saved the day (well, 2/4 of the day anyway).
Despite the PC deaths, everyone who played today found the module very challenging and fun (although exactly 0% of them had good things to say about the rolling pyramid encounter since none of them could really do anything about it other than chip away at its hp 2-3 at a time or try to come up with strange ideas).
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Mine was Create pit on the pyramid ..
Jump across pit ... run down hallway ...
use run actions as the pyramid is closing in on them ... 3 rounds to break through the door ... End up trapping pyramid in the pit on the other side of that doorthe pyramid is still shuffling in that hole - everyday I'm shuffling shuffeling
We did this, except it trampled over us and we ran to the door. Trapped the construct there.
The GM apologized for killing me but hey that's the way the save is failed, lol
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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I have to admit I'm unsure where everyone is seeing the high kill rate for this adventure. I ran it today with an eye toward everything mentioned in this thread and saw no real issues. There were certainly a few challenges, but nothing overtly dangerous. The bloodrager and warpriest hit like two-ton trucks, and with the support that regular PFS characters can provide them (I had a ninja, bard and alchemist at a table of five) my group had no problems at all.
Exactly. Try running a table with just the four pregens in the module; that could be a very different story.
I had four pregens run by players unfamiliar with Pathfinder (but quite familiar with RPGs), plus one player running a clone of his level 3 PFS hunter+pet (I wasn't running this as a reportable PFS game). Even with a few adjustments (having the pyramid carry on all the way down the corridor before returning; giving the swashbuckler Weapon Finesse; . . .) the first three encounters used up quite a bit of their healing supplies. After that, it was fairly easy going for a while, although the burning skeletons took a couple of the party into negative HP territory. But the final encounter was a whole other story; all but one character failed the save against paralysis, and the remaining character - the bloodrager - didn't last long when he went to-to-toe with the pharaoh. Even though the warpriest quickly shook off the paralysis, he wasn't able to out-damage the pharaoh, and when he went down we ended up with the pharaoh at about half HP vs. the swashbuckler and the hunter, neither of whom were really serious threats; he hit them most of the time, while they were having a hard time hitting him, and an even harder time doing more than a point or two of damage even if they did hit.
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Organized 5 tables of the mod today and ran two tables.
1st table- 4 players with 4th level PFS characters. They did well one pc dropped but not killed.
2nd table- 4 players with 4th and 3rd PFS characters. They had a harder time with 3 drops, no permadeaths.
3rd table 7 players- 5 ppregens, no deaths at all.
4th table 4 players- 3 pregens . 1 3rd lvl monk. Monk was dropped in final fight.
5th table 5 players. 2vc dropped no deaths.
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In my table of all the pre-gens plus a second warpriest, the final battle had both warpriests down and the bloodrager down. The swashbuckler finished the mummy off with panache! One of the warpriests ended up dead. The two wands of CLW were completely expended, and orc ferocity plus the swift healing of the warpriest class probably kept it from being a TPK.
The Pharaoh walked over and his despair froze Oloch, and coup de graced killed him. Only death for two tables.
Why? This seems like a jerk move from the GM. The tactics don't say he does this, so why would he spend two rounds doing it: one to move adjacent, a second to full-round action coup de grace.
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In my table of all the pre-gens plus a second warpriest, the final battle had both warpriests down and the bloodrager down. The swashbuckler finished the mummy off with panache! One of the warpriests ended up dead. The two wands of CLW were completely expended, and orc ferocity plus the swift healing of the warpriest class probably kept it from being a TPK.
The Pharaoh walked over and his despair froze Oloch, and coup de graced killed him. Only death for two tables.Why? This seems like a jerk move from the GM. The tactics don't say he does this, so why would he spend two rounds doing it: one to move adjacent, a second to full-round action coup de grace.
Well i was the first one into the temple, and it does say he wants a sacrifice of the first one into the temple. I didn't feel it was a jerk move, seemed right for a mummy who had just frozen almost the entire party and he couldn't reach the only party member left active.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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I have to admit I'm unsure where everyone is seeing the high kill rate for this adventure. I ran it today with an eye toward everything mentioned in this thread and saw no real issues. There were certainly a few challenges, but nothing overtly dangerous. The bloodrager and warpriest hit like two-ton trucks, and with the support that regular PFS characters can provide them (I had a ninja, bard and alchemist at a table of five) my group had no problems at all.Exactly. Try running a table with just the four pregens in the module; that could be a very different story.
I had four pregens run by players unfamiliar with Pathfinder (but quite familiar with RPGs), plus one player running a clone of his level 3 PFS hunter+pet (I wasn't running this as a reportable PFS game). Even with a few adjustments (having the pyramid carry on all the way down the corridor before returning; giving the swashbuckler Weapon Finesse; . . .) the first three encounters used up quite a bit of their healing supplies. After that, it was fairly easy going for a while, although the burning skeletons took a couple of the party into negative HP territory. But the final encounter was a whole other story; all but one character failed the save against paralysis, and the remaining character - the bloodrager - didn't last long when he went to-to-toe with the pharaoh. Even though the warpriest quickly shook off the paralysis, he wasn't able to out-damage the pharaoh, and when he went down we ended up with the pharaoh at about half HP vs. the swashbuckler and the hunter, neither of whom were really serious threats; he hit them most of the time, while they were having a hard time hitting him, and an even harder time doing more than a point or two of damage even if they did hit.
I guess my confusion lies in the following thought process:
If you are running this as a PFS table then you are likely to wind up with a table much like what I described, and therefore a table that handles this adventure with the skill we expect out of a PFS table.
If you are *not* running it as a PFS-credit table then you can do what you did and change whatever you like. I'm surprised you only changed the little bit you did change. Give the Investigator a potion of fiery breath, and give the duelist a potion of heroism. That would likely get them through the issues they had. But you could go so far as to just give the players 3rd (or 4th) level pre-gens out of the NPC Codex and let them play all kinds of different options. Moreover, you can handle the encounters with all sorts of different tactics that you wouldn't be able to do at a PFS table.
Neither of those two situations leads to the "automatic deaths" being pointed out in this thread.
I get the fact that Paizo should be given feedback on what people feel is the danger-level of an "introductory" module, considering that not all GMs are going to have the wherewithal to adjust things correctly. But the volume of (and vitriol behind) that feedback seems to be a bit much, and has become counter-productive.
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Started a table of four, with each playing one of the pregens. Three of those four were kids, two probably 15-16, the other 12-13. I tried to softball a bit, but didn't realize just how little leeway these four have to handle this alone. I was running without a screen and my dice were apparently on fire and theirs were most definitely not. Jirelle died to a crit from the pyramid which I only had trample the party once. Uloch and Crowe both spent a large part of that fight yo-yoing around 0, while Quinn wanded them both. I let the Jirelle player bring in another Uloch when the party rested after that fight was done. Next fight was tough, once Quinn was grappled, even without requiring the save for losing weapons, they were again with multiple characters in the negatives, but finally succeeded. After that, the three kids decided to leave, so the other player and I joined a second table that was running with 4 as well.
Not really sure what I could have done differently. The pregen characters, especially Jirelle, just seemed woefully inadequate to handle the threats presented.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Of two tables in Spring Lake, NC.
#1: 2x Jirelle, 1x Quinn, 1x Crowe, 1x Oloch, 1x samurai 4. I ran the animated pyramid to trample all the way down the hallway, but I didn't have it come back for multiple tramples (it's unintelligent and no tactics listed). PCs took the southern hallway through the temple, through the harem secret door, beat the boss, TIME. 0 deaths, but a lot of close calls.
#2: This one wasn't my table, but I know they had a Quinn and a ranger 4. Not sure about the rest of the party. TPK at the boss.
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I ran it with 4 pregens. 3 were played by brand new players, Jirelle was played by an experienced player.
Went more or less as I expected. Jirelle is almost completely useless except to act as a target and draw attacks (the experienced player was doing a wonderful job of aiding, providing flanks, parrying attacks, etc).
I had to do some extreme softballing and was quite receptive to creative tactics. Allowed the group 2 full rests.
Fortunately my dice (rolled openly) went VERY cold in the final encounter. The BBEG rolled 3 or less on 4 of its 5 attacks.
Everybody seemed to enjoy themselves but it was a long meat grinder. And it would have been a TPK in the first 15 minutes if I'd played it "straight". As it was the group barely pulled it off.
Its a long overly deadly meat grinder for 4 pregens which requires extreme luck or extreme softballing to succeed
It certainly showcases the new classes well. The Investigator is a fantastic skill monkey with very poor combat ability (nothing bad about that if that is what you are expecting) and the Swashbuckler fails completely at its primary role at low levels, especially when built poorly. The bloodrager at this level pretty much played like a barbarian. The warpriest was fine, feeling kinda like a paladin
On the bright side, I REALLY liked a lot of the Egyptian fluff.
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I ran it with 4 pregens. 3 were played by brand new players, Jirelle was played by an experienced player.
Went more or less as I expected. Jirelle is almost completely useless except to act as a target and draw attacks (the experienced player was doing a wonderful job of aiding, providing flanks, parrying attacks, etc).
I had to do some extreme softballing and was quite receptive to creative tactics. Allowed the group 2 full rests.
Fortunately my dice (rolled openly) went VERY cold in the final encounter. The BBEG rolled 3 or less on 4 of its 5 attacks.
Everybody seemed to enjoy themselves but it was a long meat grinder. And it would have been a TPK in the first 15 minutes if I'd played it "straight". As it was the group barely pulled it off.
Its a long overly deadly meat grinder for 4 pregens which requires extreme luck or extreme softballing to succeed
It certainly showcases the new classes well. The Investigator is a fantastic skill monkey with very poor combat ability (nothing bad about that if that is what you are expecting) and the Swashbuckler fails completely at its primary role at low levels, especially when built poorly. The bloodrager at this level pretty much played like a barbarian. The warpriest was fine, feeling kinda like a paladin
On the bright side, I REALLY liked a lot of the Egyptian fluff.
So, are you putting it in for PFS credit even though you didn't run it as written?
Are all you other gm's who made changes to make it easier to survive going to send it in for PFS credit, even though you did not run it as written?
Just wondering?
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I guess my confusion lies in the following thought process:
If you are running this as a PFS table then you are likely to wind up with a table much like what I described, and therefore a table...
Why should new players not play it as a PFS game? Getting a chronicle sheet after a first game is a great link to the OP campaign, so there is good reason to run the game as PFS legal even if it is new players playing pregens.
I'm glad lots of people had fun with it, and I agree it is less deadly than Bonekeep or Scarlet Sun - but neither of those are appropriate first RPG experiences, either. We have heard of successes for the event - although most of the success stories stars with, " My party of seven..." or, "My non-pregen experienced players..." which is not the situation you can guarantee at Free RPG Day.
We will never know how many new players were introduced to Pathfinder with a pregen TPK in the first ten minutes of the game, since they will likely never come to the forums or another PFS event.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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On another thread, I just observed that the very early Paizo experience, the delve that ended up being the "Seven Swords of Sin" module for 3.5, was extraordinarily deadly, moreso than Bonekeep. People loved to play it.
I remember the very first Gencon when PFS premiered. There were four adventures. Some players were going around, announcing that they'd played in all four, and had four characters die. They had a fun time.
GM Lamplighter, I think you are casting too great a pall on PC death. If the adventure is fun and the GM is friendly, dying -- even a TPK -- isn't the huge turn-off you're fearing. I mean, heck, your characters die a lot in video games, too, and I've never sen anybody walk away from a pinball game with a live ball.
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After finally getting the module (*), we ran it with the following:
* The pregen warpriest
* A witch (white-haired) 1 / magus (hexblade) 3
* An alchemist, level 3
* A magus, level 3 or 4, throwing Harrow cards
In the end everyone had fun and no one died, but mainly because they realized they could rest. The main highlights:
- The pyramid was really tough - without the high damage of the warpriest, I think they would've been in trouble. The alchemist was clever - he used Enlarge Person to stop the trample attacks cold (can't trample something your size or greater). Ten wand charges used.
- The mimic grabbed the witch and the warpriest, but went down pretty quick. It actually died to a coup de grace Harrow card (LOL).
- The false pharaoh got grabbed and pinned down by the witch's hair, and died an embarrassing death. Party rested then went south. The scarabs melted to alchemist bombs.
- They all saw through the zombie lords' illusion, but still played along. A few lucky Diplomacy rolls and I let them through after they choked down the "food" and "drink".
- On the big fight, everyone got paralyzed, but the warpriest only got one round worth, and the pharaoh and sphinx were too far away for a coup de grace. Warpriest used his remove fear scroll on the alchemist, who (again) melted the mummy with his bombs. Magus and witch wiped out the sphinx after that.
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Drogon:
Its not necessarily that the module itself is insta death, but that the disparity between moderately built PCs and the horribly built pregens means that you can either have a moderately deadly dungeon for real pcs or introduce people to the game with pre gens but you can't combine all three at the same time. Dawn of the scarlet sun had the same problem. Pregen are probably gonna die. Pregens on new players are going to TPK.
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So, are you putting it in for PFS credit even though you didn't run it as written?
Are all you other gm's who made changes to make it easier to survive going to send it in for PFS credit, even though you did not run it as written?
Just wondering?
I never said that I didn't run it as written.
I can't speak for others but I'm certainly putting it in for PFS credit.
I believe that the changes that I made fall within the bounds of what the GM is allowed to do within PFS. With no written tactics it is in my purview to decide what tactics the monsters follow in order to try and maximize players enjoyment. Given the mix of characters and players I chose the tactics that I did.
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On another thread, I just observed that the very early Paizo experience, the delve that ended up being the "Seven Swords of Sin" module for 3.5, was extraordinarily deadly, moreso than Bonekeep. People loved to play it.
I remember the very first Gencon when PFS premiered. There were four adventures. Some players were going around, announcing that they'd played in all four, and had four characters die. They had a fun time.
GM Lamplighter, I think you are casting too great a pall on PC death. If the adventure is fun and the GM is friendly, dying -- even a TPK -- isn't the huge turn-off you're fearing. I mean, heck, your characters die a lot in video games, too, and I've never sen anybody walk away from a pinball game with a live ball.
The players at Gencon are very, very, very non typical and very, very much not representative of the players I ran for at Free RPG day yesterday.
Like most people, while I try hard not to I tend to project my own likes and dislikes onto others. All that I know for sure is how unenjoyable and offputting it would be to me be to sit down at a game and have a TPK happen in the first 15 minutes due to circumstances essentially beyond my control. I know that if that had been my first experience with PFS it also would have been my last.
I know that if Mike had posted something along the lines of "Regardless of the group, please do NOT softball things at all. Run it as you would for 5-6 experienced players playing their own characters" then I would most definitely NOT have run this module yesterday.
Editted for clarity
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So, are you putting it in for PFS credit even though you didn't run it as written?
Are all you other gm's who made changes to make it easier to survive going to send it in for PFS credit, even though you did not run it as written?
Just wondering?
I never said that I didn't run it as written.I can't speak for others but I'm certainly putting it in for PFS credit.
I believe that the changes that I made fall within the bounds of what the GM is allowed to do within PFS. With no written tactics it is in my purview to decide what tactics the monsters follow in order to try and maximize players enjoyment. Given the mix of characters and players I chose the tactics that I did.
So extreme softballing and not playing it "straight" are within the bounds of run as written?
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This was trash, glad I got a copy for free rather than paying for it. Playing this with the supplied pregens would have been instant death, thank goodness we had a couple of non-pregens in our group and a GM who didn't get his jollys from killing PCs.
If there was any coordination on the part of the module author and those involved in the pregen creation/coordination, then shame on all of you.
Horrible experience that is only salvaged by smart pfs event coordinators who build a fun free RPG day event in spite of this terrible offering.
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I had four pregens run by players unfamiliar with Pathfinder (but quite familiar with RPGs), plus one player running a clone of his level 3 PFS hunter+pet (I wasn't running this as a reportable PFS game). Even with a few adjustments… [TPK].
I was the PFS Hunter/3 at this table and while I was initially bummed that we were not doing this for credit, I am thankful John didn't (I'm not a fan of PC deaths). He did a wonderful job as GM and I enjoyed the game if not the module. I'm a relatively new PFS player (having played some other RPG games in the past) so my perspective here is from playing PFS games for a month. I started playing PFS at the KublaCon game convention last month that was local to me. I played some introduction scenarios like Confirmation while my son played We Be Goblins Too and then others with me. We both enjoyed our introductions and I have played a few games since (9 XP for me in less than 4 weeks). So I'm still relatively new and have some experience with a variety of seasons content (have not played anything from seasons 3 or 4 yet). I've enjoyed this introduction enough that I'm going to both PaizoCon and GenCon just to play more PFS.
This scenario was not fun for a new player and a poor choice for Free RPG day (unless the intent was to drive people away from PFS, then it works). As has been pointed out already, the hardness 8 was a pain (stone fist being worthless). Even DR 5 was challenging for the pregens. The whole middle of the place was virtually trivial as almost everything was killed with single attacks. Then the boss was way too hard for a group of pregens (APL3). The pregens are all level 3 and ill-suited to being in a dungeon but when they face a hard encounter (CR5) it's pretty much a guaranteed fail (if played as written). This could have been a much better experience if the pregens were all level 4 and had someone picked the correct skills needed for this particular scenario or if any of the level 4 pregens could have been used. This felt like an failed extension of the playtest using some of the worst features.
I'd also like to mention this scenario is really long time wise. We only did the right side and still it was way over the normal time. I don't think the people showing up for Free RPG day were expecting a 6+ hour scenario. I think the length is partially due to the unsuitability of the pregens to the scenario and a little to the new players. Although it feels like there were a few too many encounters to me.
So in the end I was happy the table I was in was not a PFS sanctioned game as my character, whom I've invested a lot of time into, would have resulted in a permanent death.
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Hi
Worst scenario I've ever played - even less chance of survival than playing Paranoia!
We used the Warpriest, I took the Investigator (so we had trapfinding - was going to use a Paladin2/Bard 1).
Others were an enchantment based Sorceror & Fighter, both 3rd level.
The Pyramid thing took a number of charges of our CLW Wands, but we got past that. Our game effectively finished with 3 dead & 1 running away in the 'Mummy' room.
How can a party of 4 3rd lvl characters be be expected to face a creature with +14 attack? My Investigator had 20HP, AC 15 with Con 10.
Didn't help that the GM 'realised' we had to pass a will save vs fear aura once we were all in the room. My character was paralysed (already hurt), facing both monsters alone since two characters had already died to them (Fighter & Warpriest), and the Sorceror had managed to run away badly hurt.
Very disappointed with this one - players at the store who couldn't get to play probably had the best time of it - at least there were other things being run.
Sorry - this ones not a good intro to new players.
Paul H
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Played it with 5 people. 4 using the provided pregens and one running the pregen cleric and I have to say I loved the module but I would not run it with just the provided pregens.
The only reason we got past that first encounter was by literally running down the hall and falling into or jumping over the pit trap and having the pyramid get stuck in the door frame.
We demolished the skeletons, mimic, and hunter thanks to everyone getting gunshy and just readying an attack over every coffin we found but the scarab fight is nearly impossible with the pregens as provided since only about half your party has any form of AoE attack. We literally just ran from the scarabs back to the secret door and sealed it behind us.
Now don't get me wrong, I like hard scenarios where a chance of death is very real but I'm not a fan of that level of challenge occurring because of poorly designed pregens. That's not difficulty, it's overly hamstringing your players and calling it clever design.
That being said I would totally play this again with a group of non-pregen players who know that this is not a walk in the park. Also with a gm who knows how adamantine and hardness works.
Also was anyone else a little surprised by the 13 Con on Crowe and 16 Cha even though the latter does nothing for his stats at that level?
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We had 3 tables in a brand new shop that started end of last August. There has been some PFS games done so far in the shop - but nobody is further as level 2.
A BIG thanks for FantasyPhil who drove 1 hour to help out and GM.
So on the day we had:
Table 1: A group of 4 brand new players (one had played once before) and one dropped in during the encounter with the pyramid using each of the 4 different pregens - a second level wizard/archer.
Table 2 - GMed by PhantasyPhil: 3 members from my home group (level 3 characters, no pregens) - with one new player whom I told to take either the warpriest or the bloodrager.
Table 3: One of my junior-league players (level 4 cleric) who brought 2 friends from school with him (all likely 13 years). I only gave them the bloodrager and the warpriest to choose from. One drop in who got the investigator. He left half way through the game so that one needed to be GM played from there onwards.
Everyone had a lot of fun - and no deaths. How is that possible with inexperienced players / pregens and not 6 at the table?
I did read these boards here well before - so prepared myself for the pyramid. The key is the trample - how often, etc.
Given the right light (hooded lantern 60 feet dim light, Oloch darkvision 60 feet) the group should spot the pyramid before they reach it - giving them the opportunity to do something - especially as the initiative of the pyramid is slow.
Table 1: The bloodrager bullrushed the pyramid and even managed to move it 5 foot back before it could move itself. I felt this justified to forego the trample - it just didn't have the space to charge and it would just fight. Also take into account - overrun (needed for the trample) isn't automatic. Not trampling helped a lot in regard to total damage output of the pyramid.
With some decent rolling and using power attack (on my advice) they managed to get the pyramid down. There was one healing during combat and one of the two front fighters dropped out of the fight when he was close to 0 just before the death blow was dealt.
Table 2 and 3 got trampled once. Don't know how on table 2 - but table 3 had the investigator scouting ahead at the edge of light - so he 'heard' the pyramid coming - but it was too late when he saw it.
In both cases the groups did run and (barely) managed to open the door just before the pyramid could trample them a second time.
For table 3 this was nearly a TPK what followed. They spotted the trap - but a 1 on disable - with the pyramid coming - resulted in 3 characters down the hole. The fourth fought on his own and went unconcious.
Luckily this group had a cleric - and as he went down just next to the pit I included him in the channel radius - stabilizing him.
I could have dropped the pyramid on top and eaten the unconscious one - but that wouldn't have been a good ending for a new group.
So instead the group heard some dragging noises - and the mimic took it's 'food' into a corner. It was clear he 'would' be eaten - but even a hungry animal might take food to it's lair first and eat (a little) bit later.
The pyramid has reach - but it also has 'done it's job' - so no need to keep it guarding the trap.
Table 3 needed a McGiver to get out (improvised rope using clothing - yep - the grappling hook and rope was with the unconscious one). I only allowed a single character climbing up at once as I felt that was as far as I could see the clothes working as rope.
The warpriest up first did straight on charge the mimic guarding the unconcious bloodrager - only to lose his sword and consciousness soon after - by which time the cleric was up.
A spiritual weapon was a great choice of spell - as it attacked without danger of being glued. The mimic tried twice in vain to attack the weapon - before going for the cleric and the investigator.
The cleric was grappled and close close to zero HP when he landed the final blow.
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So what else: Table 1 never found the false tomb but made the shortest way to the real tomb. I did a mistake on the secret door - so let them through without puzzle - only to realize it afterwards. GM errors happen is you run it first time ...
The used the scroll of searing light to very good effect on the mummy and barely made the fight alive.
I stopped after that fight as time was up and people for table 3 waiting.
Table 2 managed a lot more. Don't know the details - but this was the most experienced group of players.
Table 3 - they found the false tomb and didn't realize it was a false one. They had burned A LOT of resources and hadn't found any of the side doors leading out of the room with the mimic.
So they used the false door to place over the trap and fought their way back defeating the pyramid. I gave them some help for tactics - after all - they had encountered the pyramid before and I ruled it had retreated half way back.
It was a tough fight - but with a cleric healing they managed. The smile on the faces of the 13 year old when they lugged all the (false) treasure out.
They loaded it on their fast camels when they saw the next group of adventurers advance on the horizon - to quickly leg it back.
Oh yes - the smiles dropped when I told them once they were back that the treasure wasn't as valuable as they thought and that they had fallen for the oldest trick of pyramids - the false tomb.
But I know they will be back.
Could I have killed them?
Easily
But I felt I used tactics in a way justified by logic and the monsters - and in a way that would leave everyone with a good feel from the table.
I didn't fudge, I didn't change any monsters.
Yes - I used monster tactics that meta-gaming I knew gave the groups a chance. It helped I did roll below average and the only double 20 appeared at a time when it wasn't deadly.
There are a few questions - like - how quickly will the pyramid turn. Will it attempt trample/overrun of will it fight once it is in melee, will it pursue beyond the original corridor (or even retreat back once everyone is out of it), will the mimic eat unconscious victims (YES), how quickly (not immediate in my case).
I was afraid of the module. But I have to say - I enjoyed it a lot and so did all players at Guildhall Games in Dover, UK.
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If you haven't already, I suggest that everyone post a review of this scenario on the product page. Although Paizo staff do read these messageboards, the product reviews are where you can make your voice be heard the best.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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On another thread, I just observed that the very early Paizo experience, the delve that ended up being the "Seven Swords of Sin" module for 3.5, was extraordinarily deadly, moreso than Bonekeep. People loved to play it.
I remember the very first Gencon when PFS premiered. There were four adventures. Some players were going around, announcing that they'd played in all four, and had four characters die. They had a fun time.
GM Lamplighter, I think you are casting too great a pall on PC death. If the adventure is fun and the GM is friendly, dying -- even a TPK -- isn't the huge turn-off you're fearing. I mean, heck, your characters die a lot in video games, too, and I've never sen anybody walk away from a pinball game with a live ball.
There is nothing wrong with hard mods like Bonekeep & Swords of Sin as long as everyone knows that is what they are getting themselves into. It is unlikely most people playing Risen From the Sands to give Pathfinder a try on Free RPG Day will have this understanding or expectation.
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In terms of trample, it does not require the use of a charge (see overrun). You can trample them anyways. Choosing not to I guess is an option.
The group I ran this for had all seasoned players. Full table and 2 of them chose to play pre-gens (warpriest and swashbuckler). In fact the person playing the swashbuckler fell in love with dodging panache and claimed that they must make a swashbuckler now.
Pyramid was dispatched via the use of a tanglefoot bag along with a failed reflex save. The small mounted cavalier with adamantine lance then charged and effectively "gutted" it.
The mimic took them by surprise. They were kind of irritated with the "auto grapple from the adhesive ability". Too bad, so sad. I knocked one player unconscious and grabbed and proceed to describe how it was licking its lips in anticipation of a meal (too bad it doesnt have swallow whole). I completely forgot about the fact that their weapons stuck to the mimic without a reflex save so I did make that fight easier than it should have been, oops.
They stealthed up to the chariot room and saw the skeleton archers but avoided being seen. They then proceeded to spend 20 minutes talking about strategy. This was a fascinating process to witness (although in hind sight I should not have let it go on for so long due to time constraints). They settled on "hide from undead", which the warpriest had prepared (no rules I know of say that a pre-gen cannot prepare new spells at the beginning of the next day). I thought it was genius personally.
The tough fight of course was the Pharaoh. He critted a monk in the first round taking him to within 3 points of death. The monk made his save verses mummy rot. I got two other hits off and both made their save (which made me happy because I didnt want to perma kill someones character with that nonsense).
I played this in a group of 6. We had 3 pregens and 3 PFS characters. We used Oloch, Crowe, and Quinn (me). Crowe died in the first encounter after getting hit with a slam attack for max damage that left him 2 below dead. GM used a table reroll (due to his PFS shirt) to allow the damage to be rerolled. He rolled one less. Still dead. Quinn was knocked unconscious and would likely have died too but for a) being pulled to safety by the archer and b) other members of the party coming back to fight the pyramid.
To be fair, it might have gone differently but for a very poor initiative roll. The pyramid started in a surprise round and got everyone, though a few of us made a save to take half damage. Roll initiative and I rolled a 1. Rest of the party starts to run down the hall (except for the archer) but before I could go, the pyramid reversed direction and trampled me (failed my save) and I was unconscious. Of course, I know not how far the pyramid could have moved and whether or not running would have worked.
Rest of the run was a meat grinder but we managed to stay alive, albeit with numerous unconscious moments. Time ran out before we could encounter the big bad, but my guess is that likely would have been a wipe as we were all out of healing but for some charges left on the CLW of the fighter (we had used up Oloch's wand and I had swapped out some of my extracts to give more healing and used those up too).
I will say that we were very fortunate that we had non-pregens at the table with us. The mounted fighter (might have been a cavalier not sure) proved particularly handy as he was able to charge with his lance and even got a few crits in. Aside from that, we likely would have all wiped earlier.
As for my experience, this was my first time playing PFS, though I am pretty experienced with Pathfinder and 3.x. I had not previously read up on any of the advanced class guide classes yet, so it was all new to me. From a roleplay perspective, I actually liked Quinn. The skill monkey nature was nice, and I loved the ability to make untrained knowledge checks. At one point the ranger even looked at me and said "How many knowledge skills do you have??" Added to that the ability to use free uses of Inspiration with certain checks was really nice.
In combat though, it was different. I felt pretty much useless in combat. Part of that was due to bad die rolls, but part of it too was simply looking at the character sheet and thinking "I would never build my character like this if I wanted to fight." His extracts were almost entirely non-offensive yet his highest stat was in Int. I'm assuming that makes him better able to make extracts and increases the DCs, except nothing really required a save. Then his "attack" stats were lousy. He used a feat to make Dex his attack stat but was still only at a +2 mod to Dex, then many of the creatures seemed to be better suited to his club (and strength 10). Simply put, most of the time even if I hit I was unlikely to do much damage.
We made it fun though. I got in the habit of rolling my attack then saying "Hit there" (as I pointed my weapon at the designated spot after missing, then letting the fighter smack it hard. When the water elemental was triggered I tried to talk it down with Diplomacy (in Aquan). Some of the players started to laugh a little at the ridiculousness of it but then the archer (the grumpiest player at the table) said "Hey, to be fair his character can't really do anything in combat anyway so he might as well try."
The bottom line was it just seemed as though the pregens were horribly suited to the adventure. From the perspective of trying to attract new players who have never played before, this seemed like a poor decision. The combination of Stone Fist and the hardness 8 just seemed like a particular slap in the face, and as somebody who is usually the GM, it almost struck me as a "Gotcha!" style of design. "Oh, you have fire resistance but not cold? Well good thing all the critters in this adventure deal cold damage then."
With all that said though, I had a great time. We had a fun GM and the table was full of great players who had fun. Did it do its job of selling the Advanced Class Guide though? Eh, not sure. At the start we were told that the Investigator was supposed to be a cross between the Alchemist and the Rogue. When I went to throw a vial of acid (from long range so as not to provoke) somebody said "Don't you get 20 foot range? Alchemists get that." (I don't know if that's true btw). Then later somebody said "Well, won't flanking help you get around the DR by using Sneak Attack?" When I said I didn't have SA either somebody said "What, did they just give you the worst features of both classes with none of the good?"
In all honesty, my guess is that the class is better, and more useful, than it appeared if properly built. And I did love the roleplay side of it, but of course the scenario had very little roleplay in it.
/shrug
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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"GM used a table reroll (due to his PFS shirt) to allow the damage to be rerolled."
Garge, I just wanted to note that this is nice of your GM, but it's not permitted. While a GM can "donate" his re-roll to a player, (1) the re-roll can only revise a PC's roll, not an NPCs; (2) it can only re-roll a d20 roll, not damage; (3) it can't be used once the results (dead) are known.
I mention this, not to impugn the GM, but because this is a public record that several new GMs will read, and I want to avoid confusion.
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Also, alchemists get a 20-foot range increment. If an alchemist is willing to take a range penalty on his ranged touch attack, he can be a comfortable distance from his target. (Maybe the Investigator is different; I don't know.)
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In terms of trample, it does not require the use of a charge (see overrun). You can trample them anyways. Choosing not to I guess is an option.
Since both Trample and Charge are full round actions they cannot be done in the same round.
I wonder how many GMs are killing people due to a misunderstanding of the Trample Rules. The Pyramid should only be able to move 30 ft with a Trample Action.
I know a lot of GM's killed characters in a certain other scenario 5 when they allowed a critter to trample in a surprise round.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I played this Saturday with:
Level 3 support Bard (me)
Level 3 Fighter with ECB (my fiancee)
Level 3 Rogue 2/Wizard 1
Level 4 Inquisitor/Ninja
Level 4 sword & board Ranger
Level 3 Oloch
The animated pyramid combat was brutal, but we had 3 PCs with high enough Strength to get through the hardness, so we survived. Most of the rest of the encounters were easy enough (the swarm fight was interesting, because we caught one of the boats on fire, then my fiancee and I pushed it into the corner to trap the swarm and kill it). But good Lord, that last fight! My fiancee's PC died just from damage, and two others contracted mummy rot before we finished the fight. But with several days of travel before we could reach anyone to cast the required remove spells, they both died and crumbled to dust, beyond our ability to raise them. That bit just felt downright insulting.
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I wonder how many GMs are killing people due to a misunderstanding of the Trample Rules. The Pyramid should only be able to move 30 ft with a Trample Action.
That sounds like something that needs to be clarified, since the tactics list the pyramid moving up to trample the PCs once someone moves within 40ft.
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| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
In terms of trample, it does not require the use of a charge (see overrun). You can trample them anyways. Choosing not to I guess is an option.
Since both Trample and Charge are full round actions they cannot be done in the same round.
I wonder how many GMs are killing people due to a misunderstanding of the Trample Rules. The Pyramid should only be able to move 30 ft with a Trample Action.
I know a lot of GM's killed characters in a certain other scenario 5 when they allowed a critter to trample in a surprise round.
Trample wrote: As a full-round action, a creature with the trample ability can attempt to overrun any creature that is at least one size category Smaller than itself. This works just like the overrun combat maneuver
Overrun wrote: As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square.
Charge wrote: Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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I played this Saturday with:
Level 3 support Bard (me)
Level 3 Fighter with ECB (my fiancee)
Level 3 Rogue 2/Wizard 1
Level 4 Inquisitor/Ninja
Level 4 sword & board Ranger
Level 3 OlochThe animated pyramid combat was brutal, but we had 3 PCs with high enough Strength to get through the hardness, so we survived. Most of the rest of the encounters were easy enough (the swarm fight was interesting, because we caught one of the boats on fire, then my fiancee and I pushed it into the corner to trap the swarm and kill it). But good Lord, that last fight! My fiancee's PC died just from damage, and two others contracted mummy rot before we finished the fight. But with several days of travel before we could reach anyone to cast the required remove spells, they both died and crumbled to dust, beyond our ability to raise them. That bit just felt downright insulting.
Ouch! That's really horrible. Did any of you have the periapt of health on (found in one of the other rooms) so that at least one of you was immune to disease?
"GM used a table reroll (due to his PFS shirt) to allow the damage to be rerolled."
Garge, I just wanted to note that this is nice of your GM, but it's not permitted. While a GM can "donate" his re-roll to a player, (1) the re-roll can only revise a PC's roll, not an NPCs; (2) it can only re-roll a d20 roll, not damage; (3) it can't be used once the results (dead) are known.
I mention this, not to impugn the GM, but because this is a public record that several new GMs will read, and I want to avoid confusion.
--
Also, alchemists get a 20-foot range increment. If an alchemist is willing to take a range penalty on his ranged touch attack, he can be a comfortable distance from his target. (Maybe the Investigator is different; I don't know.)
Chris good to know. Thanks! As for the investigator, the alchemist fire and acid vial were specifically listed as 10 foot range increment, so I am assuming it did not get the Alchemist's benefit. That said, I was still able to throw it, just at a range penalty.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Ouch! That's really horrible. Did any of you have the periapt of health on (found in one of the other rooms) so that at least one of you was immune to disease?I played this Saturday with:
Level 3 support Bard (me)
Level 3 Fighter with ECB (my fiancee)
Level 3 Rogue 2/Wizard 1
Level 4 Inquisitor/Ninja
Level 4 sword & board Ranger
Level 3 OlochThe animated pyramid combat was brutal, but we had 3 PCs with high enough Strength to get through the hardness, so we survived. Most of the rest of the encounters were easy enough (the swarm fight was interesting, because we caught one of the boats on fire, then my fiancee and I pushed it into the corner to trap the swarm and kill it). But good Lord, that last fight! My fiancee's PC died just from damage, and two others contracted mummy rot before we finished the fight. But with several days of travel before we could reach anyone to cast the required remove spells, they both died and crumbled to dust, beyond our ability to raise them. That bit just felt downright insulting.
...I did.
The group I ran for failed most of their spellcraft checks to identify items and being seasoned and very paranoid players declined to use anything they couldnt identify.
Of course, if you were running a group of only pregens, you didn't have the chance to identify any of the items. The characters that had Detect Magic didn't have Spellcraft. Go figure.
As I said, I had a lot of fun playing, and I don't mind a very tough adventure now and then. However, I think this may well have been a very bad experience for a group full of new players who were just testing the waters of RPGs. The fact that we had 3 players that were not pregens proved to be the deciding factor (though I'll admit that Oroch seemed pretty decent).
As for the range increment, it turned out not to matter as I hit anyway. As stated above a ranged touch usually isn't too bad. We bypassed the swarms though thankfully.