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As if ANY adventurer has a shortage of cutup living bodies to study. The vivisectionist just remembered to take notes.
I've cut open a living brain-dead frog before. That doesn't make me evil...So, a vivisectionist is dissecting people and animals who died of natural causes and had donated their corpses to science so that they can have a better understanding of anatomy.That is a dissectionist. Note that "died" part. If they are dead when he's cutting them up, he's not a Vivisectionist.
Sure. But if it's your occupation, many people will think less of you.
Sure. But if it's your occupation, many people will think less of you.I've cut open a living brain-dead frog before. That doesn't make me evil...So, a vivisectionist is dissecting people and animals who died of natural causes and had donated their corpses to science so that they can have a better understanding of anatomy.That is a dissectionist. Note that "died" part. If they are dead when he's cutting them up, he's not a Vivisectionist.
What does a talk about profession(vivisectionist) have to do with the rogue class?
What does a talk about profession(vivisectionist) have to do with the rogue class?Sure. But if it's your occupation, many people will think less of you.I've cut open a living brain-dead frog before. That doesn't make me evil...So, a vivisectionist is dissecting people and animals who died of natural causes and had donated their corpses to science so that they can have a better understanding of anatomy.That is a dissectionist. Note that "died" part. If they are dead when he's cutting them up, he's not a Vivisectionist.
Don't you know it's impossible (not to mention against the rules) to roleplay anything other than the exact description of your character's class?
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Don't you know it's impossible (not to mention against the rules) to roleplay anything other than the exact description of your character's class?
Flavor text is just that- flavor. Use it or not. But it's important to some.
Don't you know it's impossible (not to mention against the rules) to roleplay anything other than the exact description of your character's class?Flavor text is just that- flavor. Use it or not. But it's important to some.
and totally not helpful in a talk about the rogue, unless we start talk about the rogues supernatural ability o bend fate in its flavor text.
Sure. But if it's your occupation, many people will think less of you.I've cut open a living brain-dead frog before. That doesn't make me evil...So, a vivisectionist is dissecting people and animals who died of natural causes and had donated their corpses to science so that they can have a better understanding of anatomy.That is a dissectionist. Note that "died" part. If they are dead when he's cutting them up, he's not a Vivisectionist.
The people I know who job it is to do that would be called Professor and their job is to teach students and research cures to paralyses.
Important or not, the rogue will still be mechanical inferior.Don't you know it's impossible (not to mention against the rules) to roleplay anything other than the exact description of your character's class?Flavor text is just that- flavor. Use it or not. But it's important to some.
There is still not a class that does the rogues play style better. These mechanically better options tend to play completely differently.
The rogue is one of the only non-spellcasting classes that don't just try to full attack.
Important or not, the rogue will still be mechanical inferior.Don't you know it's impossible (not to mention against the rules) to roleplay anything other than the exact description of your character's class?Flavor text is just that- flavor. Use it or not. But it's important to some.There is still not a class that does the rogues play style better. These mechanically better options tend to play completely differently.
The rogue is one of the only non-spellcasting classes that don't just try to full attack.
Err, rogues still try to full attack and vivisectionist and ninja both can do the rogues playstyle, as can the slayer soon, and to be honest the reason they may not may be that they have better ways to do it. They still have all of the options to rogue does for getting into position, and then some.
We've been over this before though.
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Don't you know it's impossible (not to mention against the rules) to roleplay anything other than the exact description of your character's class?Flavor text is just that- flavor. Use it or not. But it's important to some.
Flavor on a character is like alcohol at a frat party. Everyone is responsible for bringing their own.
Don't you know it's impossible (not to mention against the rules) to roleplay anything other than the exact description of your character's class?Flavor text is just that- flavor. Use it or not. But it's important to some.
I agree, flavor IS important. But flavor texts add nothing to a discussion about mechanics. One can play a Vivisectionist Alchemist without ever even think about vivisections, just like one can play a Rogue and have the character never break a rule.
Theorycraft vs actual playAny character you see that is not a rogue and does the above routinely? Even if they could, do they actually do it?
NOTE: I also have skill mastery in all those skill but climb, which is mimic-able by one class that wouldn't do it.
Important or not, the rogue will still be mechanical inferior.Don't you know it's impossible (not to mention against the rules) to roleplay anything other than the exact description of your character's class?Flavor text is just that- flavor. Use it or not. But it's important to some.There is still not a class that does the rogues play style better. These mechanically better options tend to play completely differently.
The rogue is one of the only non-spellcasting classes that don't just try to full attack.
Err, rogues still try to full attack and vivisectionist and ninja both can do the rogues playstyle, as can the slayer soon, and to be honest the reason they may not may be that they have better ways to do it. They still have all of the options to rogue does for getting into position, and then some.
We've been over this before though.
Rogue priority goes
Sneak attacking > Full attacking > Single Attacks
vs slayer priorities
Full attacking > Sneak attacking > Single Attacks
That equals very different play.
Yes.
Theorycraft vs actual playAny character you see that is not a rogue and does the above routinely? Even if they could, do they actually do it?
NOTE: I also have skill mastery in all those skill but climb, which is mimic-able by one class that wouldn't do it.
I haven't forgotten him.
The question was actual play though, my theorycraft arguments will have to wait and are fuzzy at best.
The funny thing is, the Vivesectionist Alchemist archetype is probably one of the better ways to recreate Butters using the Pathfinder rules, so long as you ignore the bits of the flavour that hint at evilness and cutting a living being up for fun. If you want to create a medical examiner Batman who dabbles in the supernatural/magic, who is capable of fighting, and isn't afraid to play dirty... the Vivesectionist works very well to fill that concept.
I would say normal Alchamist is a better fit, given that the most recent book showed him using something very close to alchemist bombs.
Yes.
Theorycraft vs actual playAny character you see that is not a rogue and does the above routinely? Even if they could, do they actually do it?
NOTE: I also have skill mastery in all those skill but climb, which is mimic-able by one class that wouldn't do it.
I haven't forgotten him.
The question was actual play though, my theorycraft arguments will have to wait and are fuzzy at best.
Well my argument has always been that the Rogue is generally invalidated at some point past 4th or 5th level. Before this time my Alchemist makes due as a Knowledge Jockey but doesn't really catch up in skills(Though he does rapidly) till 8th/9th level. And by doesn't catch up in skills I generally mean he's one or two skill points down by your general builds Marthkus that take a 14 Int.
Well my argument has always been that the Rogue is generally invalidated at some point past 4th or 5th level. Before this time my Alchemist makes due as a Knowledge Jockey but doesn't really catch up in skills(Though he does rapidly) till 8th/9th level. And by doesn't catch up in skills I generally mean he's one or two skill points down by your general builds Marthkus that take a 14 Int.Yes.
Theorycraft vs actual playAny character you see that is not a rogue and does the above routinely? Even if they could, do they actually do it?
NOTE: I also have skill mastery in all those skill but climb, which is mimic-able by one class that wouldn't do it.
I haven't forgotten him.
The question was actual play though, my theorycraft arguments will have to wait and are fuzzy at best.
1 |Deceitful, Skill Focus(Bluff)
2 |Finesse Rogue
3 |Combat Expertise
4 |Combat Trick(Improved Feint)
5 |Skill Focus(UMD)
6 |Bleeding Attack
7 |Combat Reflexes
8 |Fast Stealth, Skill Focus(Stealth)
9 |Quick Draw
10|Skill Mastery(Bluff, UMD, Stealth, Disguise, Acrobatics)
11|Greater Feint
12|Opportunist
13|Extra Rogue Talent(Crippling Strike)
14|Hard Minded
15|Great Fortitude
16|Skill Mastery(Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Sleight of Hand, Climb, Linguistics), Skill Focus(Acrobatics)
17|Iron Will
18|Black Market Connections
19|Skill Focus(Diplomacy)
20|Rumormonger
You're 8 points behind in skills by level 10, which is trivial. But you have points in skills I don't grab, like knowledge. When eclipsing the rogue, you have to do what they do better. Taking things like Knowledge arcana and craft alchemy and spellcraft are skill taxes that make eclipsing the rogue harder. I ran into these problems when playing an alchemist. I call these phenomena "skill taxes" and "skill temptations" when it comes to eclipsing the rogue.
Skill taxes are things you NEED to play the class, like spellcraft for wizards
Skill temptations are things you feel silly for not putting points into like knowledge arcana for wizards, alchemy for alchemist, and knowledge skills for bards.
Now this is talking about mechanical eclipsing not effectiveness. Effectiveness is a measured saying "this character is better than that other one" which is more subjective. Mechanical eclipsing is "I literally do everything as well or better than you do + some other stuff". These arguments only apply to the latter. The only counter argument to mechanical eclipsing for a class is an appeal to unique play style. For example, imagine a wizard that had an supernatural ability to as a standard action you defeat any encounter regardless of type or difficulty. Let's call this wizard an "arcanist". This class is still very differently from a wizard. Even though it can do everything the wizard does, it still may not be the class that people want to play because it has a simple boring mechanic that completely over shadows spell casting. This last argument is weak, but is the only counter I see to pure mechanical eclipsing.
I do not have a problem with a party that have a barbarian, a samurai and a paladin dedicated to kill thing fast with pointy sticks.
If suddenly the trapper ranger, the archeologist and the vivisecsionist made the rogue feel bad, that is rogue problem, because they certainly work well togheter.
I wouldn't feel bad. We now have an awesome stealth team where each member does slightly different things.
Around 10th level my rogues will usually have a + 63 to Stealth. Now if I take 10 on that then it becomes a 73. Subtract 20 because of a Balor's True Seeing and he still needs to roll a 15 or better to see me and he's a CR 20 monster.
at 12 my stealth check is +28. I can always take 10 though. That's 38. I don't depend on invisibility though.
You're 8 points behind in skills by level 10, which is trivial. But you have points in skills I don't grab, like knowledge. When eclipsing the rogue, you have to do what they do better. Taking things like Knowledge arcana and craft alchemy and spellcraft are skill taxes that make eclipsing the rogue harder. I ran into these problems when playing an alchemist. I call these phenomena "skill taxes" and "skill temptations" when it comes to eclipsing the rogue.Skill taxes are things you NEED to play the class, like spellcraft for wizards
Skill temptations are things you feel silly for not putting points into like knowledge arcana for wizards, alchemy for alchemist, and knowledge skills for bards.
Likewise I have points in skills I don't necessarily feel the need for with the Alchemist like UMD and I like leaving a lot of room to taste.
Notice my build doesn't bother with actually putting a rank in any of his Knowledge skills except History which is for the Delver dip.
As for Skill taxes and temptations, I'll note Craft Alchemy is the only one I consider absolutely putting atleast 1 point in. Just one point and you'll get a Craft Alchemy of +17 (+9 9th level Alchemist, +4 Int +3 Class Skill) with my build which is more than enough for all possible potions he can brew. So he can craft potions of his Alchemist level without error DC 14(5+9 Caster Level).
Perhaps, if the optimization level is low or moderate. If not, then you will have an awesome stealth team ...and a rogue.I wouldn't feel bad. We now have an awesome stealth team where each member does slightly different things.I do not have a problem with a party that have a barbarian, a samurai and a paladin dedicated to kill thing fast with pointy sticks.
If suddenly the trapper ranger, the archeologist and the vivisecsionist made the rogue feel bad, that is rogue problem, because they certainly work well togheter.
Not really. Also depends on what these guys are doing. Are they each trying to play their class? Or are they trying to be rogues? Either case, the rogues abilities still stack and they do have few sacred cows all to their own.
Around 10th level my rogues will usually have a + 63 to Stealth. Now if I take 10 on that then it becomes a 73. Subtract 20 because of a Balor's True Seeing and he still needs to roll a 15 or better to see me and he's a CR 20 monster.
True Seeing shouldnt be doing anything to change that result if you're doing it right.
I have a few stealth builds that trump any kind of detection without failure.
You're 8 points behind in skills by level 10, which is trivial. But you have points in skills I don't grab, like knowledge. When eclipsing the rogue, you have to do what they do better. Taking things like Knowledge arcana and craft alchemy and spellcraft are skill taxes that make eclipsing the rogue harder. I ran into these problems when playing an alchemist. I call these phenomena "skill taxes" and "skill temptations" when it comes to eclipsing the rogue.Skill taxes are things you NEED to play the class, like spellcraft for wizards
Skill temptations are things you feel silly for not putting points into like knowledge arcana for wizards, alchemy for alchemist, and knowledge skills for bards.
Likewise I have points in skills I don't necessarily feel the need for with the Alchemist like UMD and I like leaving a lot of room to taste.
Notice my build doesn't bother with actually putting a rank in any of his Knowledge skills except History which is for the Delver dip.
As for Skill taxes and temptations, I'll note Craft Alchemy is the only one I consider absolutely putting atleast 1 point in. Just one point and you'll get a Craft Alchemy of +17 (+9 9th level Alchemist, +4 Int +3 Class Skill) with my build which is more than enough for all possible potions he can brew. So he can craft potions of his Alchemist level without error DC 14(5+9 Caster Level).
Brew potion still requires spellcraft, not alchemy for some reason...
You can't cover everything that rogue does because you are behind skill points. Only 8 points, but you start putting points into other skills and fall farther behind. I believe you also lack the ability to take 10 like skill mastery. Which is essential to play.
Just because you may not NEED it to play that alchemist doesn't mean you don't NEED it to be able to play a rogue but better. Right now that alchemist can't play like my rogue does. He has to depend on his other resources.
Not really. Also depends on what these guys are doing. Are they each trying to play their class? Or are they trying to be rogues? Either case, the rogues abilities still stack and they do have few sacred cows all to their own.Perhaps, if the optimization level is low or moderate. If not, then you will have an awesome stealth team ...and a rogue.I wouldn't feel bad. We now have an awesome stealth team where each member does slightly different things.I do not have a problem with a party that have a barbarian, a samurai and a paladin dedicated to kill thing fast with pointy sticks.
If suddenly the trapper ranger, the archeologist and the vivisecsionist made the rogue feel bad, that is rogue problem, because they certainly work well togheter.
But what are THOSE abilities that makes the rogue unique ?
Sneak attack ? A normal attack is better from any of the 3 other.
8+INT skill rank per level ? You don't need that much in a team.
Rogue talents ? They are very disapointing.
Trap finding and disabling ? Even you don't believe it.
It's nice to tell that the trapper, the archeologist or the vivisectionist will not fill the rogue role easily (if they want to still be effective), but what does the rogue bring to the group ?
And is that role so much important that a whole character have to do it (opposed to a little of each character taking a few skills and selecting a better class) ?
Rogues are great.
Some classes are about the meta narrative not the meta game.
Brew potion still requires spellcraft, not alchemy for some reason...
You can't cover everything that rogue does because you are behind skill points. Only 8 points, but you start putting points into other skills and fall farther behind. I believe you also lack the ability to take 10 like skill mastery. Which is essential to play.
Just because you may not NEED it to play that alchemist doesn't mean you don't NEED it to be able to play a rogue but better. Right now that alchemist can't play like my rogue does. He has to depend on his other resources.
Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft or Craft (alchemy)
I respectfully disagree. I agree that I haven't entirely eclipsed the Rogue, but have pretty much effectively done so in every way it counts. The Alchemist doesn't need UMD like the Rogue does to provide utility options. The Alchemist can forgo ranks in some niche skills like Linguistics, Climb, Swim and Disguise since he has class features that allow him to circumvent those kind of checks.
Though more of taste, I stopped taking Sleight of Hand as a skill even on partial Rogue builds since it literally came in handy once in one campaign. It was even a debatable use of the skill apparently.
It is rare to use every skill a Rogue has access to enough times in a single day where an extract might also suffice. Especially considering an Alchemist can "prepare" an open extract slot in a single minute.
Rogues are great.
Some classes are about the meta narrative not the meta game.
Absolutely not. No mechanical construct is about the meta narrative.
It's nice to tell that the trapper, the archeologist or the vivisectionist will not fill the rogue role easily (if they want to still be effective), but what does the rogue bring to the group ?
Errr... part of the problem is they fill the rogue's role, and then do more. When compared to their peers though, we don't get a lot of complaints about them being overpowered, but the rogue gets piles of complaints and when put under the microscope doesn't come out looking too hot.
Brew potion still requires spellcraft, not alchemy for some reason...
You can't cover everything that rogue does because you are behind skill points. Only 8 points, but you start putting points into other skills and fall farther behind. I believe you also lack the ability to take 10 like skill mastery. Which is essential to play.
Just because you may not NEED it to play that alchemist doesn't mean you don't NEED it to be able to play a rogue but better. Right now that alchemist can't play like my rogue does. He has to depend on his other resources.
Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft or Craft (alchemy)I respectfully disagree. I agree that I haven't entirely eclipsed the Rogue, but have pretty much effectively done so in every way it counts. The Alchemist doesn't need UMD like the Rogue does to provide utility options. The Alchemist can forgo ranks in some niche skills like Linguistics, Climb, Swim and Disguise since he has class features that allow him to circumvent those kind of checks.
Though more of taste, I stopped taking Sleight of Hand as a skill even on partial Rogue builds since it literally came in handy once in one campaign. It was even a debatable use of the skill apparently. ** spoiler omitted **
It is rare to use every skill a Rogue has access to enough times in a single day where an extract might also suffice. Especially considering an Alchemist can "prepare" an open extract slot in a single minute.
I disagree. Your alchemist has not casted chain lightning 3 times in a row on two lamias via staff at a higher caster level than the wizard, saving the synthesist summoner from wisdom drain. **corner case**
I guess your alchemist can't mimic skill master? You haven't corrected me on that yet. So your alchemist can't feint nearly as well. Your alchemist can't take 10 on lies (baring a really strange reading of the take 10 rules). You have to roll acrobatics checks so without invisibility you are not avoiding AOOs with certainty. (even I barely exceed the check with boost of elvenkind).
Is your alchemist as effective or more? Probably.
Can your alchemist play like a rogue+? No.
Does your alchemist play like a rogue? No.
But what are THOSE abilities that makes the rogue unique ?
Free evasion
Uncanny dodgeBleeding attack
Skill mastery
Taking 10 on UMD, so constant caster level with staves and easier time passing scroll DCs.
Crippling strike
Opportunist combo-ed with greater feint leads to decent non-flanking damage, which at least one of the others may need flanking.
More skill points. My rogue builds tend to have 12 per level. Skill overlap is not a huge issue, probably just means more chances to beat the check.
Probably a higher bluff check. I take both deceitful and skill focus bluff on rogues which ends up being a +10 which is hard to over come without glibness up (may not have time to cast that).
Rogues are great.
Some classes are about the meta narrative not the meta game.
Could you explain this?
What does meta narrative mean?
EDIT: Noticing an unfortunate need for rogue defenders to invent terms for what they are talking about. I much prefer this over "LtRP noobs" or "How to play a fun rogue: 1) create rogue 2) have fun playing it" or "I won't post builds, but rogues are great and have no problems..."
I guess your alchemist can't mimic skill master? You haven't corrected me on that yet. So your alchemist can't feint nearly as well. Your alchemist can't take 10 on lies (baring a really strange reading of the take 10 rules). You have to roll acrobatics checks so without invisibility you are not avoiding AOOs with certainty. (even I barely exceed the check with boost of elvenkind).Is your alchemist as effective or more? Probably.
Can your alchemist play like a rogue+? No.
Does your alchemist play like a rogue? No.
It does mimic Skill Mastery slightly. I can always take 10 on Stealth and Disable Device through the Delver dip.
We talked about the Feint. The bonus is high enough with such a small margin of error that it honestly doesn't matter a whole lot. AoOs are less of an issue because he actually has a good AC. Acrobatics is too often a double edged sword, but I'll accept your criticism of that.
I think and feel it plays like a Rogue. The only difference is that the magical help comes from you rather than gold. I always try and accomplish my goals through skill use first before falling back on magic like any other Rogue unless it's dangerous and the magic use is guaranteed success.
I guess your alchemist can't mimic skill master? You haven't corrected me on that yet. So your alchemist can't feint nearly as well. Your alchemist can't take 10 on lies (baring a really strange reading of the take 10 rules). You have to roll acrobatics checks so without invisibility you are not avoiding AOOs with certainty. (even I barely exceed the check with boost of elvenkind).Is your alchemist as effective or more? Probably.
Can your alchemist play like a rogue+? No.
Does your alchemist play like a rogue? No.
It does mimic Skill Mastery slightly. I can always take 10 on Stealth and Disable Device through the Delver dip.
We talked about the Feint. The bonus is high enough with such a small margin of error that it honestly doesn't matter a whole lot. AoOs are less of an issue because he actually has a good AC. Acrobatics is too often a double edged sword, but I'll accept your criticism of that.
I think and feel it plays like a Rogue. The only difference is that the magical help comes from you rather than gold. I always try and accomplish my goals through skill use first before falling back on magic like any other Rogue unless it's dangerous and the magic use is guaranteed success.
Well no, your bluff is not high enough for reliable feints. Also not taking 10 on bluff is HUGE for out of combat and in combat for things like feint and creating a diversion to hide.
I still think the UMD is critical. I'm back-up caster in the group because of the items we find that no one else can use, and I am the only non-caster in the group.
You can play as A rogue. I'll give you that, but you can't mimic MY rogue. Which means you don't have a rogue+ more proof. I couldn't play my rogue with your build. I couldn't play the same way, and in some cases would even end up more effective.
I guess your alchemist can't mimic skill master? You haven't corrected me on that yet. So your alchemist can't feint nearly as well. Your alchemist can't take 10 on lies (baring a really strange reading of the take 10 rules). You have to roll acrobatics checks so without invisibility you are not avoiding AOOs with certainty. (even I barely exceed the check with boost of elvenkind).Is your alchemist as effective or more? Probably.
Can your alchemist play like a rogue+? No.
Does your alchemist play like a rogue? No.
It does mimic Skill Mastery slightly. I can always take 10 on Stealth and Disable Device through the Delver dip.
We talked about the Feint. The bonus is high enough with such a small margin of error that it honestly doesn't matter a whole lot. AoOs are less of an issue because he actually has a good AC. Acrobatics is too often a double edged sword, but I'll accept your criticism of that.
I think and feel it plays like a Rogue. The only difference is that the magical help comes from you rather than gold. I always try and accomplish my goals through skill use first before falling back on magic like any other Rogue unless it's dangerous and the magic use is guaranteed success.
Well no, your bluff is not high enough for reliable feints. Also not taking 10 on bluff is HUGE for out of combat and in combat for things like feint and creating a diversion to hide.
I still think the UMD is critical. I'm back-up caster in the group because of the items we find that no one else can use, and I am the only non-caster in the group.
You can play as A rogue. I'll give you that, but you can't mimic MY rogue. Which means you don't have a rogue+ more proof. I couldn't play my rogue with your build. I couldn't play the same way, and in some cases would even end up more effective.
Okay.