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Hello Pathfinder messageboard, this is my first post here.
A quick background. While I know things relating to 2nd Edition AD&D, I am currently running my first D&D game ever in the form of Pathfinder (previously I just read material). While I'm not new to RPGs, I am new to Pathfinder, d20 System, and D&D in general.
In my game we have a Paladin whose goal is to be the team's tank. However, he has some difficulty doing that, namely that there is little that stops enemies from attacking someone else. I'd like to give him some combat options to be able to help him feel like he's helping the group more, but shift his team goal away from inflicting damage and more to defending his allies.
There are a few abilities I was interested in to accomplish this. The first would be to block ranged attacks that pass by him, likely spending an AoO to retarget a ranged attack that moves through a square he threatens to make it hit himself. Another idea was to force a particular enemy to attack him. I'm aware of the "Antagonize" feat, though I don't know if it quite gets the job done.
If there is existing feats, spells, or abilities that accomplish this better I'd appreciate being pointed towards them. Otherwise, I'd like to see if anyone has an idea regarding a spell/feat/ability or something that I could introduce into the game to help him feel like the team's defender.
Any advice and input is appreciated!
You're looking at this from the wrong perspective. If enemies are bypassing you in order to attack someone else it's because you're not presenting enough of a threat in order to make them want to attack you. Instead of focusing on movement hindering abilities (of which there are few and usually very limited in scope) you should be focusing on making your character a dangerous enough threat that enemies can't afford to ignore you.
Before I offer suggestions; Are you a traditional sword & board paladin, or do you use a different weapon setup?
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I think this will get much more traction if it is moved to the Advice subforum - I've flagged it as such so a moderator can move it...
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I recommend Him being a "Sword" more then a Board Paladin.
Take a Lesson from the Pathfinder Iconic. Sure the Ionics are not the best they can be but they are strong enough to get the job done.
I recommend him Just grabbing a Long Sword (Low levels) using a shield.
Stay basic on the feats:
Power attack is a must. Makes you seem more of a threat when you hit harder. The loss to hit is manageable by your BaB and class Abilities.
Extra Lay on Hands is a good feat and is better then toughness on a paladin.
If your a Human your extra Feat can be Fey Fondling which will make your paladin heal for more with each use of Lay on Hands or outside healing.
The Vital Strike Line is good for a Paladin who focuses on a 1 handed weapon. Most the time the Paladin has to chase down someone and deliver a good smacking for ignoring him. This allows you to Deliver a bigger smack.
Suggested feat Lay Out:
Human-Fey Fondling
1-Power attack
3-Furious Focus or Weapon Focus
5-Extra Lay on Hands
7-Vital Strike
9-Critical Focus
11-Improved Vital Strike
13-Tiring Critical
15-Exhausting Critical
17-Greater Vital Strike
It is a simple Build that won't get confusing. You will deal good damage with your long-sword enough so to be a threat they can not ignore. If someone does ignore you...just move to them and vital strike them for good strong damage.
As far as Defensive options....well Pathfinder favors offense over defense. BBEGs work just as good at 1 HP as they do at 250. The defense built into this build are Fey Fondling + Extra Lay on Hands. You stay alive longer...that is about it...he will have good AC and Saves...as long as he drinks his potions of Blur or wears a Cloak of displacement he will be fine.
Vital Strike is meh.
I suppose, I am personally a fan of Unsanctioned Knowledge to pick up Dimension Door and taking the Dimensional Savant feat chain.
I think the best simple paladin build is an intimidate build that takes Intimidating Prowess and Cornugon Smash, then picks up Dreadful Carnage.
Dazzling Display and Shatter Defenses are also solid for non magical buffs/debuffs.
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I'm a Fan of Cornugon Smash.
Not a fan of Dazzling Display. It is a full-round action. I prefer putting people into the dirt as soon as I can. Because once they are dead they are not causing me or my party harm.
Shatter defenses on a Cornugon Smashed Target is still a decent combo. Yeah they are flat footed. Good on some enemies...but on others that's just like -1 AC. If you don't have a rogue to take advantage its even more a poorer choice. Lots of feats for -1 AC when you have a Very good BaB, Divine Bond Weapon, Magic, and Smite to help you hit. I've hardly ever seen a paladin have a hard time to hit.
As for Unsanctioned Knowledge -> Dimensional Feats. Not a simple build and doesn't come online till late game. Good once it is late game but getting there I feel some feats will feel like wasted paper space till then. Its hard to keep a new player interested in Melee when they are not using their feats the moment they choose them. Its a strong build and really helps the paladin's poor movement. But so does fly/overland Flight.
The problem is being a "tank" in PF/D&D is pretty hard, you dont have a taunt button like warriors in WoW. Usually it requires a very specific build. Generally speaking, using a reach weapon with Combat Expertise, Step Up, and Step Up and Strike and/or specializing in maneuvers like tripping is a decent way to do it, although those type builds are usually better for fighters due to being very feat intensive.
Regarding "tanking" though, Dreamscarred Press, the people who made the (extremely well done) Psionics system for Pathfinder, are working on a new product called Path of War. One of the 3 new classes introduced in it is called the Warder, a class that is mechanically designed to be able to actually play the roll of a tank in a PnP RPG.
HERE is the book for the class (this will eventually be compiled with the other Path of War content into a compilation book).
HERE is an earlier playtest version of the class to give you an idea where its going.
HERE is a guide to the Warder class.
As for the Paladin, he needs help from his party also in staying the target, have the wizard use his spells to avoid/discourage attacks (fly is great vs any meleers), maybe the rogue can acquire a cloak of displacement making the bad guy less inclined to attack the out of phase guy, and also the paladin needs to pump some serious damage, that always helps make a guy hate you.
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The best way to tank is to fill the space.
A friendly caster dropping Enlarge Person on your Paladin means that he fills every doorway and most passages in modules and APs.
And his threat area dominates most indoor spaces as well.
Add tripping weapons (heavy flail for up close, guisarme for reach) and a decent CMB and you can control space without sacrificing damage or using up a load of feats.
Even better if your paladin can get a tripping mount somehow. Even so, dismounting and using that large creature to fill space can be very effective.
If you want it to define the character then the Stalwart Defender prestige class is handy. Especially if you convert to a dwarven paladin with the Stonelord archetype.
The best way to tank in Pathfinder is to be the biggest threat on the battlefield. Make it so the enemies can't ignore you less they be deadafied.
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Combat reflexes and tripping with a reach weapon as Geraint said is a good way to stop enemies. Some nice spells to look for later on would be Shield Other and Compel Hostility. Cornugon Smash and Intimidating Prowess are nice also.
If going Sword and Board i really like Sacred Shield and the Step up line of feats (Step Up/Following Step/Step Up and Strike). Add in Saving Shield, Body Guard and the Helpful Trait along with Combat Reflexes. I know thats a ton of feats but would work really well a "defender/tank" Pally.
Unnamed Hero
Human (Taldan) Paladin (Divine Defender, Sacred Shield) 1
LG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception -1
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Defense
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AC 20, touch 12, flat-footed 18 (+6 armor, +2 shield, +2 Dex)
hp 12 (1d10+2)
Fort +4, Ref +2, Will +1
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Offense
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Speed 20 ft.
Melee heavy shield bash +4 (1d4+3) and
. . gauntlet (from armor) +4 (1d3+3) and
. . longsword +4 (1d8+3/19-20) and
. . unarmed strike +4 (1d3+3 nonlethal)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 1st; concentration +3)
. . At will—detect evil
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Statistics
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Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 15
Base Atk +1; CMB +4; CMD 16
Feats Bodyguard, Combat Reflexes
Traits helpful
Skills
Languages Common
SQ aura of good, bastion of good
Other Gear four-mirror, heavy steel shield, longsword, 70 gp
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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Bastion of Good (10 ft) (1/day) (Su) - 0/1
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Special Abilities
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Aura of Good (Ex) The paladin has an Aura of Good with power equal to her class level.
Bastion of Good (10 ft) (1/day) (Su) One foe does ½ dam to allies in aura, full to self, +2 deflect to AC.
Bodyguard Use an AoO to use aid another to improve an ally's AC.
Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Detect Evil (At will) (Sp) You can use detect evil at will (as the spell).
Helpful Aid another grants allies a +3 bonus (instead of usual +2).
Since i don't know what the current build looks like.
After this you could look to add in...
Saving Shield and In Harm's Way then see if you can fit in the step up line. Granted this trades away the real threat of the 2-Handed PA Pally and really ramps up the Defender mode. It's just another option. I feel something in between the two may be the best way to go though.
Keep in mind that dealing damage, aggro and threat are MMO definitions to simplify combat. On tabletop RPG the "aggro" is defined by the GM, so you cant build a tank.
You can build someone who keeps the enemy close to him, or keeps your friends away from the enemies, but if you are flanking an enemy, there is nothing preventing the monster from turning around and attacking your friend. Even a low intelligence humanoid will know that the guy on full-plate mail is easier to slow down than kill, and the guys wearing no armor are easy prey.
That said, you need to focus on ways to prevent damage on your allies and/or keeping the enemies at check. Slow, tripping, staggering, sickening, and any condition that hinders movement helps on that, as does any feat or ability that increases your allies's AC or reduce their damage. Even healing them in combat counts as doing your job by the way.
Covering Defense works wonders when you are "blocking the way". And Saving Shield is overall a good investment to keep your friends from being hit.
If you decide to wield a flail, i suggest you take Combat Reflexes and abuse the extra attacks of opportunity for trip attempts, and possibly keep an eye out on your allies if you buy Bodyguard and In Harm's Way.
Here's a Paladin build I'm very fond of. Not the simplest, but probably your most effective "tank" by being big and scary, with huge damage and debuff capability.
I recommend a two handed reach weapon with this build, in conjunction with Spiked Gauntlets or Armor Spikes for close combat. You can cover a lot of ground, especially with an Enlarge effect.
Take a Human with the "Focused Study" racial trait, to replace his flexible first level bonus feat with a Skill Focus feat at levels 1, 8, and 16.
H1: Skill Focus (Intimidate)
L1: Fey Foundling
L3: Power Attack
L5: Furious Focus
L7: Cornugon Smash
H8: Skill Focus (Survival)
L9: Eldritch Heritage (Orc)
L11: Dreadful Carnage
L13: Improved Eldritch Heritage
L15: Divine Interference
H16: Skill Focus (W/E)
L17: Greater Eldritch Heritage
L19: Extra Lay On Hands
The trait "Community Minded" or "Optimistic Gambler" is essential, as it allows the 1st level Orc Bloodline power to be effectively usable on yourself.
Also important is a Cruel weapon (refluffed as you like it). You're tossing the Shaken condition around everywhere (Cornugon Smash for single large targets, Dreadful Carnage for AOE), and with a Cruel weapon, every Shaken enemy you hit will be Sickened on top of it.
Divine Interference is a great defensive feat. You won't have the spell levels to significantly debuff anyone's attack roll, but giving up even a first level spell makes them reroll a natural 20.
If you don't want the Orc Bloodline and all that complexity (or you can't have one of the above mentioned traits), drop the Focused Study racial for the regular bonus feat (Intimidating Prowess will probably be better than Skill Focus Intimidate) and spend your feats on more Extra Lay On Hands instead. The Oath of Vengeance archetype will let you activate Smite by spending 2 LOH.
The end result of all this is a big, frightening avatar of holy wrath. Lots of great RP fun with Dreadful Carnage; rather than making a gory mess, you could burn out the target with divine light or some similar effect.
Here's a Paladin build I'm very fond of. Not the simplest, but probably your most effective "tank" by being big and scary, with huge damage and debuff capability.
I recommend a two handed reach weapon with this build, in conjunction with Spiked Gauntlets or Armor Spikes for close combat. You can cover a lot of ground, especially with an Enlarge effect.
Take a Human with the "Focused Study" racial trait, to replace his flexible first level bonus feat with a Skill Focus feat at levels 1, 8, and 16.
H1: Skill Focus (Intimidate)
L1: Fey Foundling
L3: Power Attack
L5: Furious Focus
L7: Cornugon Smash
H8: Skill Focus (Survival)
L9: Eldritch Heritage (Orc)
L11: Dreadful Carnage
L13: Improved Eldritch Heritage
L15: Divine Interference
H16: Skill Focus (W/E)
L17: Greater Eldritch Heritage
L19: Extra Lay On HandsThe trait "Community Minded" or "Optimistic Gambler" is essential, as it allows the 1st level Orc Bloodline power to be effectively usable on yourself.
Also important is a Cruel weapon (refluffed as you like it). You're tossing the Shaken condition around everywhere (Cornugon Smash for single large targets, Dreadful Carnage for AOE), and with a Cruel weapon, every Shaken enemy you hit will be Sickened on top of it.
Divine Interference is a great defensive feat. You won't have the spell levels to significantly debuff anyone's attack roll, but giving up even a first level spell makes them reroll a natural 20.
If you don't want the Orc Bloodline and all that complexity (or you can't have one of the above mentioned traits), drop the Focused Study racial for the regular bonus feat (Intimidating Prowess will probably be better than Skill Focus Intimidate) and spend your feats on more Extra Lay On Hands instead. The Oath of Vengeance archetype will let you activate Smite by spending 2 LOH.
The end result of all this is a big, frightening avatar of holy wrath. Lots of great RP fun with Dreadful Carnage; rather than making a gory mess, you could...
I really like this for the most part, but I find Divine Interference unnecessary, and I myself don't care much for Greater Eldritch Heritage since it comes into play so late.
Obviously that last skill focus should be Diplomacy imo.
If you're at the level that you qualify, you might as well take it. The 15th level bloodline power is better than Righteous Might, and Paladins can't even get that spell. And as long as you can have one of the aforementioned traits, every step of the Orc Bloodline is useful to you.
Divine Interference can be exchanged for Extra Lay On Hands. If you have the Oath of Vengeance, almost any feat after Fey Foundling and Power Attack can be Extra Lay On Hands. On top of all that, it may turn out to be less restrictive than a regular Paladin code.
Also, worship Torag and use Bloodsworn Retribution. Do it.
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I'm a little surprised no on mentioned the Oradin. Granted it multi classes into oracle but it is very effective at what it does. Basically you "tank" by absorbing the other party members damage through the life link from life oracle. You use your swift action to LoH yourself which allows you your full round actions still.
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I totally agree with Xexyz. Note how he correctly guessed that the Paladin was fighting Sword and Board. That's because fighting sword and board is part of the problem this paladin is having. A bigger sword, so to speak, is totally part of the solution!
If the character starts fighting with, say, a polearm, this will greatly increase his (her?) tanking ability. More attacks for more damage, combined with the zone denial that goes with reach, will force foes to pay attention. The additional damage from Strength and Power Attack, combined with the occasional AoO, will multiply average non-smite damage output by 1.5x or 2.0x.
Pathfinder has no 'aggro' mechanic. The next best thing is to cause so much damage that you can't be ignored. This combat style can also protect your allies quite well. Foes should find it nearly impossible to land a full attack on a squishy ally hiding behind a polearm fighter, and dangerous to even get close enough to try.
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I was going to mention exactly what Skylancer did, the Oradin. 2-4 Levels of Life Oracle the rest in Paladin, you life link to all your party members and heal them via that at the start of your turn if they're injured, then use swift Lay on Hands to heal yourself. Along with feats like Fey Foundling to increase the healing on yourself you can also have some impressive channeling, potentially healing your party with life link and 2 channels every round which can be a huge amount all told.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?257365-PF-Oradin-Mini-Guide-O r-How-to-be-a-Healbot-minus-the-bot
If you mix this with a reach weapon and combat reflexes you can be healing your party on your turn and then laying on the hurt/tripping or otherwise controlling the battlefield on the enemies turn.
When you get the time you should let us know what they ended up doing ;)
I DM amd bad guys always attack the highest AC characters first...well almost always. I know, I'm silly.
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In my game we have a Paladin whose goal is to be the team's tank. However, he has some difficulty doing that, namely that there is little that stops enemies from attacking someone else....
I am a super-big fan of switch-hitter paladin builds.
Read all my posts in that thread and this one.
Think of the fact that a party hiding behind a front line of one man will not have a very effective front line and multiple attackers can easily split up in order of keep the tank busy and walk around the front line in order to get at the targets behind the front line.
I am in a 5 character party where the front line consists of a barbarian and a monk. And I am a switch hitter ranger so whenever a large group manages to circumvent the front line, I can step in using my quick draw to switch to melee weapons and suddenly add another front line or supplement the front line. And that's pretty effective as we never lost a second line character yet. And my precise shot make me pretty dangerous as I ignore the shooting into melee penalty. Our cleric/sorcerer and thief can pretty much do what they want during a battle.
Look at the Oath of Savagery. You may control a large area, which is a great for a tank. Works well with a dorn dergar.
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Look at the Oath of Savagery. You may control a large area, which is a great for a tank. Works well with a dorn dergar.
"At 2nd level, an oathbound paladin can expend one use of her smite evil ability to extend her natural reach by 5 feet for 1 minute."
It doesn't replace Smite Evil, so I guess this can be good.
"This does not stack with the Lunge feat."
Oh. That kind of sucks.
"This ability replaces divine grace."
Into the trash it goes. But let's keep reading.
"At 11th level, when the paladin hits an evil humanoid with an attack of opportunity, she deals an additional 1d6 points of damage."
This is just insulting.
"When using holy reach, the paladin may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity per round equal to her Charisma bonus. This increase stacks with similar increases from other sources such as Combat Reflexes."
Good on its own, but too little too late to save this archetype.
"This ability replaces aura of justice."
Yeah, this archetype can get bent.
I've only been around for the Advanced Class Guide playtest, so I have to ask, has it always been the case that archetypes aren't released until the book is published?
