But that's not how it is. Colour spray at level one can wipe out a horde in a cone with the right saves, a weapon attack? Not so much.
Well, if you go for technicalities, good rolls for the mosnter in their saves means a wizard near unprotected ready to get smashed.
As often as people keep repeating it around here, I'm starting to equate "I cast color spray" with "I hit it with a weapon".Well that is a mistake. Let me explain the differences for you because Color Spray is a lot better then "I hit it with a weapon". What with the multiple targets, average will save being easier to hit then average AC, and on success guarantees removal from fight regardless of remaining HP.
Fun note, this is exactly why in our games we think casters are overpowered compared to martials.
Oh Anzyr, you're my hero.
What does the fighter do? I hit it with my weapon!
What does the wizard do? I cast color spray at it!You see how they look the same now? Do you? I guess I should have made my statement a little more obvious.
Well, if you really want to dumb it down its:
I CAST SPELL!
I HIT WEAPON!But that's not how it is. Colour spray at level one can wipe out a horde in a cone with the right saves, a weapon attack? Not so much. That's just an example of AoE save or lose at work. There are also powerful narrative tools, like detect magic, invsiiblity, teleport, etc. There are also shaping abilities like stone shape, that can change the battlefield more than any martial can hope to. Martials from 6-20 tend to play a lot a like, trying not to sacrifice their full attack to hit things and having few other options. 1-5 they hit things also, but only once, and they're more mobile when they do it.
I don't want to dumb it down. I said Color Spray because that's all anyone ever talks about.
Also, how does color spray wipe out a horde? It does no physical damage. Or do you play using the "unconscious means we won" rule? Or do you spend however many rounds it takes to make coup de graces against all the unconscious targets? And if you do, how do you justify wasting all that time when the fighter would have done the same thing? Inquiring minds want to know.
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But that's not how it is. Colour spray at level one can wipe out a horde in a cone with the right saves, a weapon attack? Not so much.Well, if you go for technicalities, good rolls for the mosnter in their saves means a wizard near unprotected ready to get smashed.
Yes. I've always found it odd that the wizard would stand so close to foes without allies in-between because they think the color spray will work.
I know our wizard hasn't been so ballsy.
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A great deal of the power of a caster comes from easy it is to perfectly target things in D&D. If casters had to guess ranges or hit allies like old school warhammer or other table top miniatures games they wouldn't be able to perfectly target their spells to only hit enemies. This would do a great deal to make them weaker. Anything like this that makes a caster less able to get a guanteed perfect result from their spells.
Similarly the tactical grid hurts fighters and makes them less able to be defenders because contrary to the way any sort of real fight with anything from fists to firearms fighting in D&D is pretty static. You get into the right position and sit there because moving makes you suck. This also means you cannot defend your allies unless they stand right next to you.
I no longer use the combat grid for basically the same reason I no longer play 4E. The combat grid is to slow. Playing TOTM combat with our house rules helps martials at my table quite a bit because we let them actually defend the rest of the party. However, nobody gives 2 squats about my houserules.
The things about the caster martial disparity is that it can show up even when people DO NOT TRY or even specifically try not to. A few games where the big bad goes down to a single save or suck or where a fighter character is spends the whole fight under the effects of hold person will quickly change minds.
I don't want to dumb it down. I said Color Spray because that's all anyone ever talks about.
Well it was dumbing it down pretty hard and people talk about more than colour spray. its just a level one spell so its pretty recognizable. Grease and color spray are good from level 1 upwards too.
Also, how does color spray wipe out a horde?
Horde of level one orc warriors in bad positioning has a -2 to their saves, so there are actually several times I've wiped out a horde because they sat too close. Technically 3-4 orcs is a gang, if you want to be picky about ecology.
The idea is you knock them out with color spray and you and your crew can CDG them after or kill the leftovers and then CDG. Even if you don't get to CDG them too quickly or they wake up, they dropped their weapon and are stunned for at least one round. You severely cripple them and if you get lucky you may have wiped out the whole enemy party in one go.
And if you do, how do you justify wasting all that time when the fighter would have done the same thing?
The fighter doesn't do the same thing. Unless your dumbing it down to "Well they all end up dead!" The fighter spends several rounds hacking I guess, and to be honest he might do that at level 20 the same way. The wizard learns to kill in so many more ways though, and learns how to avoid, defend himself, or escape the counter too.
My games consist of mostly casters and partial casters. The current party makeup in my Reign of Winter game is:
Psion
Warlock Homebrew
Warder (From Dreamscarred Press' Path of War)
Psionic Gish
Druid
3/5 are full casters or based on full casting classes, one is a supernatural class that mimics limited casting abilities reliably, one is a martial disciple.
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Pretty much exactly this. People go on and on about colour spray being a small area and it is but you dont need to catch everything in it. If the encounter is against 2 or 3 opponents and you take one of them out with a single standard action then you have just made the whole encounter significantly easier. As levels increase the impact of doing so gets greater and greater as enemies often come armed with all sorts of hideous powers of their own which can take out your team mates which makes removing them from contention asap pretty crucial."All that time" is spent without them trying to kill you, which kind of matters.
Also, how does color spray wipe out a horde? It does no physical damage. Or do you play using the "unconscious means we won" rule? Or do you spend however many rounds it takes to make coup de graces against all the unconscious targets? And if you do, how do you justify wasting all that time when the fighter would have done the same thing? Inquiring minds want to know.
You've now reduced "horde" to "2 or 3". You've also changed "color spray = I win" to "color spray = enemies are incapacitated for a while and now I have to mop them up". Also, higher than 5 HD all you get is a free round, so let's not get crazy talking about its usefulness at higher levels.
All that being said, I am constantly amazed by people's inability to recognize humor and get a point. How about people remove the collective sticks from you know where and try to not see every opposing point of view as a personal attack. Can you not see the humor in making fun of the fighter for being "I hit it with a stick" while at the same time calling the wizard a hero for being "I cast color spray"?
In regards to the actual topic, we have 4 people total which works out to only 3 players at a given time. We make characters we want to play without focusing on who or what is any particular level of caster. Most often we end up with one full caster, but there have been times when we haven't.
I can say we have never had a rogue or fighter that basically sat out higher level play due to being constantly dominated, charmed, or confused. And recently we had a druid that died in round 1 to a BBEG's Circle of Death leaving the paladin, monk, and bard to finish him off.
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As ive said before Martial caster issues are a thought experiment that in my experience rarely applies, or a break down in social dynamics between players.I didn't know a wizards ability to cast color spray was just a thought experiment. Guys! Don't worry, magic doesn't really exist! Its just a theory. Like gravity.
Color Spray is a really good spell.
Until you get in the dungeon and realize everything is either undead or a construct.
As ive said before Martial caster issues are a thought experiment that in my experience rarely applies, or a break down in social dynamics between players.I didn't know a wizards ability to cast color spray was just a thought experiment. Guys! Don't worry, magic doesn't really exist! Its just a theory. Like gravity.Color Spray is a really good spell.
Until you get in the dungeon and realize everything is either undead or a construct.
Good thing you have other spells, eh?
I've not only wiped out whole hordes with a single spell, I've also walked into a dungeon filled with undead with color spray prepared in 3/4 slots... Not my smartest moment. On the upside, grease! Bleh, prepared caster problems!
Illusion and enchantment are actually considered somewhat weaker schools for that exact reason though. Really powerful schools for utility, but if your in an undead heavy campaign you might consider something else.
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Here is the same old problem with these various arguments.
Color Spray: Good spell, but it's assuming all the enemies are huddled together, the wizard actually took the spell, the enemies aren't undead, and they all fail their save.
Spells in general: The argument always assumes the enemy fails it's save and is with in range.
Martial and Mind effects: It's always assumes the fighter fails it's save or the enemy actually has these sort of effects at it's disposal.
Here is the same old problem with these various arguments.
Color Spray: Good spell, but it's assuming all the enemies are huddled together, the wizard actually took the spell, the enemies aren't undead, and they all fail their save.
Spells in general: The argument always assumes the enemy fails it's save and is with in range.
Martial and Mind effects: It's always assumes the fighter fails it's save or the enemy actually has these sort of effects at it's disposal.
Here is the same old problem with these various arguments.
Melee attacks: Good damage when full attacking, but that's assuming the enemies can't force the martial to move, the martial can actually hit the target, the enemies aren't flying, and they actually die from the HP damage.
Melee attacks in general: The argument always assumes you actually hit the target and are within range.
Casters and Mind Effects: It's always assumed that casters succeed on their save because they have good will progression and spells at their disposal to raise their saves.
(One of these is more accurate. And as is often the case it's the parody.)
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Here is the same old problem with these various arguments.
Color Spray: Good spell, but it's assuming all the enemies are huddled together, the wizard actually took the spell, the enemies aren't undead, and they all fail their save.
Spells in general: The argument always assumes the enemy fails it's save and is with in range.
Martial and Mind effects: It's always assumes the fighter fails it's save or the enemy actually has these sort of effects at it's disposal.
Considering that not once as a GM (in the last 20 years) have I put a horde that is so tightly packed together to easily fall into the zone of effect of any spell, including fireball. Of course my players aren't lucky enough to have an inept GM. My monsters aren't necessarily tactical geniuses, but they aren't generally stupid either. When monsters are actually stupid, the bosses directing the battle seldom are.
Also while opposing spellcasters usually have some type of mind affecting spell ready in their arsenal, generally the martials aren't the real threat, except possibly archers, usually spellcasters try to disable opposing spellcasters, first.
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The general theory for mind-affecting spells isn't that martials are the real threat, it's that they're the useful weapons. :)
Or at least that they're the easy target and once they're down you can swarm the casters.
Aim for the weak points. That's martials to magic and casters to steel.
This. My party has found that the wizard's greatest weakness is relying on the weak-willed brute he expects to be guarding him. Which actually works both ways, my party has seen the wizard die more times because of the party fighter or barbarian getting dominated, possessed or confused and turning on him than for any other reason. Hell, more than for every other possible reason combined. There's nothing better than pressing the "Pulse" button on a giant weak-willed blender while he's standing in the middle of his own friends and allies.
Casters and Mind Effects: It's always assumed that casters succeed on their save because they have good will progression and spells at their disposal to raise their saves.True for clerics, druids and those celestial sorcerers. Untrue for the rest, those have mediocre saves at best.
No... its true for all casters. All them have a good save progression and spells to boost it.
No... its true for all casters. All them have a good save progression and spells to boost it.Casters and Mind Effects: It's always assumed that casters succeed on their save because they have good will progression and spells at their disposal to raise their saves.True for clerics, druids and those celestial sorcerers. Untrue for the rest, those have mediocre saves at best.
Good will progresion do not means good saves. Bad reflex means you get dazed by a dazing spell or nauseated by fort save, at 10 level what are the wizard saves?
True that they have spell to boost it, but say that those spell will be casted before any save check is too naive.
Not really... Heroism alone is 10 min/level. To say they won't be casted beforehand is evidence of terrible strategy, not naivety. And I wouldn't be surprised if the Wizard had a better Reflex save then the Fighter as well. And Cleric/Druid will even win the Fortitude Save. Really Fighter saves are just bad. Like miserable. Also Mind Control (and thus Will Saves) are much a bigger deal then being merely dazed or even dead. At least dazed or dead you aren't an enemy resource that an active threat to the rest of the party.
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Good thing you have other spells, eh?As ive said before Martial caster issues are a thought experiment that in my experience rarely applies, or a break down in social dynamics between players.I didn't know a wizards ability to cast color spray was just a thought experiment. Guys! Don't worry, magic doesn't really exist! Its just a theory. Like gravity.Color Spray is a really good spell.
Until you get in the dungeon and realize everything is either undead or a construct.
If Color Spray was the auto-win people made it out to be, the advice would not be: memorize other spells.
Not really... Heroism alone is 10 min/level. And I wouldn't be surprised if the Wizard had a Reflex save then the Fighter as well. And Cleric/Druid will even win the Fortitude Save. Really Fighter saves are just bad. Like miserable.WHy you choose the fighter?. Even with heroism the wizard will have lower saves than the monk, the barbarian and the paladin.
But even with heroism what would be the saves of the wizard +13 will afther a +3 cloack of prection? that certainly is not foolproof.
**I did say that cleric and druids have good saves.
Will saves are the most threatening type of save, because they can turn you against the party if you fail. My point was the casters have a good progression and are likely to beat most classes at those. Monks will probably have a lower save once spells factored in, Barbarians will have a lower save outside of Superstition, and good saves is kind of the Paladins thing. Though the Paladin will still ultimately lose the CHA caster who has Bestow Grace of the Champion.
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If Color Spray was the auto-win people made it out to be, the advice would not be: memorize other spells.Good thing you have other spells, eh?As ive said before Martial caster issues are a thought experiment that in my experience rarely applies, or a break down in social dynamics between players.I didn't know a wizards ability to cast color spray was just a thought experiment. Guys! Don't worry, magic doesn't really exist! Its just a theory. Like gravity.Color Spray is a really good spell.
Until you get in the dungeon and realize everything is either undead or a construct.
Having a Hammer that will allow you to pound in a nail, does not mean you should not pack a screwdriver to remove a screw. Or a can opener to open a can. Of course, you could skate this issue by preparing a Swiss Army Knife (Summon Monster) which while not the perfect tool for the job is still a good tool for the job, while still having some Hammers and Screwdrivers. And sometimes you can just use the hammer and screwdriver to open the can. Efficient? No. Better then the guy whacking it with a stick? Definitely.
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Not really... Heroism alone is 10 min/level. And I wouldn't be surprised if the Wizard had a Reflex save then the Fighter as well. And Cleric/Druid will even win the Fortitude Save. Really Fighter saves are just bad. Like miserable.WHy you choose the fighter?. Even with heroism the wizard will have lower saves than the monk, the barbarian and the paladin.
Primarily because the Monk, Barbarian, and Paladin aren't really "martial" classes. All three have a slew of abilities that are either magical in nature or emulate magical effects. I don't think becoming so in tune with your inner energy that you can teleport, getting so angry that you grow wings and fly, or summoning a celestial steed and turning any weapon you wield into a holy avenger are "martial" abilities.
The game really only has four "martial" classes: the Fighter, the Rogue, the Cavalier, and the Gunslinger. The Wizard will likely have saves as good as or better than 3 of those 4, and unlike all 4 of them, the Wizard's bad saves aren't the ones that make him a danger to the party. He also has more facility for covering for his weak saves than any of those 4.
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Melee attacks: Good damage when full attacking, but that's assuming the enemies can't force the martial to move, the martial can actually hit the target, the enemies aren't flying, and they actually die from the HP damage.
Assuming the martial cannot full attack while moving or control every else's movement around the battlefield. Both options are available.
Melee attacks in general: The argument always assumes you actually hit the target and are within range.
From mid-level on, a full BAB marital should be hitting on a 2+ for this first 2-3 iterative attacks. If not, your doing it wrong.
Casters and Mind Effects: It's always assumed that casters succeed on their save because they have good will progression and spells at their disposal to raise their saves.
Unless the GM decides all opponents are true neutral, there is a very simple solution to prevent being charmed.
If you GM is declaring all the enemy spell casters are true neutral, the problem is not that they are using spells.
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Primarily because the Monk, Barbarian, and Paladin aren't really "martial" classes.Not really... Heroism alone is 10 min/level. And I wouldn't be surprised if the Wizard had a Reflex save then the Fighter as well. And Cleric/Druid will even win the Fortitude Save. Really Fighter saves are just bad. Like miserable.WHy you choose the fighter?. Even with heroism the wizard will have lower saves than the monk, the barbarian and the paladin.
If we narrow the scope of the argument to as narrow a build as possible, discarding anything and everything that runs counter to our argument, we can claim we are right.
Melee attacks in general: The argument always assumes you actually hit the target and are within range.From mid-level on, a full BAB marital should be hitting on a 2+ for this first 2-3 iterative attacks. If not, your doing it wrong.
I think you are exagerating, at least for the first 10 levels of the game.
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I think you are exagerating, at least for the first 10 levels of the game.
Melee attacks in general: The argument always assumes you actually hit the target and are within range.From mid-level on, a full BAB marital should be hitting on a 2+ for this first 2-3 iterative attacks. If not, your doing it wrong.
Thus the qualifier, from mid-level on.
If we narrow the scope of the argument to as narrow a build as possible, discarding anything and everything that runs counter to our argument, we can claim we are right.Primarily because the Monk, Barbarian, and Paladin aren't really "martial" classes.Not really... Heroism alone is 10 min/level. And I wouldn't be surprised if the Wizard had a Reflex save then the Fighter as well. And Cleric/Druid will even win the Fortitude Save. Really Fighter saves are just bad. Like miserable.WHy you choose the fighter?. Even with heroism the wizard will have lower saves than the monk, the barbarian and the paladin.
Let's compare the Monk, Barbarian and Paladin to a caster then. Namely a Lunar Oracle under the effects of Bestow Grace of the Champion. I think its safe to say casters win this handily don't you. And that's without the +infinity saves a Nature Oracle has.
So Casters 1, martials (including Barbarian, Monks, and Paladins) 0.
Will saves are the most threatening type of save, because they can turn you against the party if you fail. My point was the casters have a good progression and are likely to beat most classes at those. Monks will probably have a lower save once spells factored in, Barbarians will have a lower save outside of Superstition, and good saves is kind of the Paladins thing. Though the Paladin will still ultimately lose the CHA caster who has Bestow Grace of the Champion.Not really... Heroism alone is 10 min/level. And I wouldn't be surprised if the Wizard had a Reflex save then the Fighter as well. And Cleric/Druid will even win the Fortitude Save. Really Fighter saves are just bad. Like miserable.WHy you choose the fighter?. Even with heroism the wizard will have lower saves than the monk, the barbarian and the paladin.
But even with heroism what would be the saves of the wizard +13 will afther a +3 cloack of prection? that certainly is not foolproof.
**I did say that cleric and druids have good saves.
I maintain that monks, barbarians and paladins have better saves than wizards and non wis sorcerers, and bestow grace of the champion last for 1/round level and is not an arcane spells (and is out of hte game for the first 12 levels).
If you assume that the monk, the barbarian and the paladin fails their saves then is safe to assume that the wizard/sorcerer was long dead/nauseated/dominated/paralized before that.
EDIT: I would like to see the 10th level wizard who saves are at least comparable to a paladins or barbarians and that still manage to be a god wizard.
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Of course, you could skate this issue by preparing a Swiss Army Knife (Summon Monster) which while not the perfect tool for the job is still a good tool for the job, while still having some Hammers and Screwdrivers. And sometimes you can just use the hammer and screwdriver to open the can. Efficient? No. Better then the guy whacking it with a stick? Definitely.
At the level range in which Color Spray is useful, Summon Monster is useless.
Summon Monster starts getting useful around 5th level, with Summon Monster III. Casting Haste on the marital characters is an order of magnitude more effective .
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Casting Haste on the marital characters is an order of magnitude more effective .
I've found that the marital characters actually aren't as fond of haste as you might think. It's generally better to take it slow.
**EDIT**
On a side note, I wish it were possible to discuss classes by Tier on this forum without people having apoplectic fits. It makes it much easier to organize and discuss comparative merits of classes.
Here is the same old problem with these various arguments.
Color Spray: Good spell, but it's assuming all the enemies are huddled together, the wizard actually took the spell, the enemies aren't undead, and they all fail their save.
You don't use color spray on undead, and you can't use a spell you haven't learned. That's really a given isn't it?
Spells in general: The argument always assumes the enemy fails it's save and is with in range.
Depends on your level. There are spells with no save or that are still highly detrimental on save, and you really should be attacking a foes weak save. No one said "This always works 100% of the time!!" they said it can and that its pretty effective. Lower levels are probably some of the weaker moments tbh. Less spell slots for all that utility, not quiet enough cash to fill up a spellbook, etc.
Never use always.
Melee attacks in general: The argument always assumes you actually hit the target and are within range.From mid-level on, a full BAB marital should be hitting on a 2+ for this first 2-3 iterative attacks. If not, your doing it wrong.
Yes, you get a lot of attack, so your bound to hit, especially if optimizing, but you also have to reach your foe and having attack doesn't negate things like DR, Concealment, or mirror images and over pits and through difficult terrain or whatever might be in the way. You also don't get the iterative if you moved unless you have a special ability that says otherwise. Many problems, one solution. A bane of simplicity I guess. Meanwhile, the full caster has many solutions, gets to use them on the go, and quiet a few of them will be good out of combat, perhaps avoiding the encounter entirely or trivializing it.
Casting Haste on the marital characters is an order of magnitude more effective .I've found that the marital characters actually aren't as fond of haste as you might think. It's generally better to take it slow.
Slow! It just might save your characters life!
The advice is: Memorize Color Spray and other spells.If Color Spray was the auto-win people made it out to be, the advice would not be: memorize other spells.Good thing you have other spells, eh?As ive said before Martial caster issues are a thought experiment that in my experience rarely applies, or a break down in social dynamics between players.I didn't know a wizards ability to cast color spray was just a thought experiment. Guys! Don't worry, magic doesn't really exist! Its just a theory. Like gravity.Color Spray is a really good spell.
Until you get in the dungeon and realize everything is either undead or a construct.
Its easier to try and shut down one spell than many, just as it is easier to come up with an excuse for when one spell won't work than the many available to a caster. You prepare based upon what challenges you think you will face, and a variety is usually not a bad idea. Of course if your going into the dungeon known for its armies of undead you won't bring color spray so much as grease and maybe burning hands or some other classic. At high levels you have lots of room for many powers, including invisibility, haste, disguise self, etc, and more room to UMD with your cash flow, though that goes for everyone.
Of course with the right spell selection and the use of such, you end up with crazy stories like this.
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Slow! It just might save your characters life!Casting Haste on the marital characters is an order of magnitude more effective .I've found that the marital characters actually aren't as fond of haste as you might think. It's generally better to take it slow.
Or at least their relationship.
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If we narrow the scope of the argument to as narrow a build as possible, discarding anything and everything that runs counter to our argument, we can claim we are right.Primarily because the Monk, Barbarian, and Paladin aren't really "martial" classes.Not really... Heroism alone is 10 min/level. And I wouldn't be surprised if the Wizard had a Reflex save then the Fighter as well. And Cleric/Druid will even win the Fortitude Save. Really Fighter saves are just bad. Like miserable.WHy you choose the fighter?. Even with heroism the wizard will have lower saves than the monk, the barbarian and the paladin.
Let's compare the Monk, Barbarian and Paladin to a caster then. Namely a Lunar Oracle under the effects of Bestow Grace of the Champion. I think its safe to say casters win this handily don't you. And that's without the +infinity saves a Nature Oracle has.
So Casters 1, martials (including Barbarian, Monks, and Paladins) 0.
With the lousy initiative you'll have dumping dex into charisma, you will never get an action.
The Zen archer/Sohei archer will hit you for 400+ damage at initiative step 40, the barbarian will pounce on you for 500+ damage. You won't attack the paladin, not without violating the Lawful Good alignment your buff indicates you must have.
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Or at least their relationship.Slow! It just might save your characters life!Casting Haste on the marital characters is an order of magnitude more effective .I've found that the marital characters actually aren't as fond of haste as you might think. It's generally better to take it slow.
Baby we were doomed from the start, your just interested because I'm just so charming.
... this will go on for a while if we let it.
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With the lousy initiative you'll have dumping dex into charisma, you will never get an action.Let's compare the Monk, Barbarian and Paladin to a caster then. Namely a Lunar Oracle under the effects of Bestow Grace of the Champion. I think its safe to say casters win this handily don't you. And that's without the +infinity saves a Nature Oracle has.
So Casters 1, martials (including Barbarian, Monks, and Paladins) 0.
Don't get MAD, get SAD!
Edit: really though, you have a lot of options to raise initiative with magic. Build arguments are odd in that they depend on system mastery, can allow for one trick ponies and schrodinger arguments, and they may not exist entirely in execution, though they can most certainly measure potential.
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Casting Haste on the marital characters is an order of magnitude more effective .I've found that the marital characters actually aren't as fond of haste as you might think. It's generally better to take it slow.
**EDIT**
On a side note, I wish it were possible to discuss classes by Tier on this forum without people having apoplectic fits. It makes it much easier to organize and discuss comparative merits of classes.
Or even just without the apoplectic fits in general. It would make the discussions a heck of a lot more enjoyable and beneficial to read.
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You won't attack the paladin, not without violating the Lawful Good alignment your buff indicates you must have.
There is absolutely no reason that two Lawful Good characters cannot come into conflict, and indeed it's the subject of some of the best fiction I've read.
Also, as I always try to point out, PVP is a crappy gauge of comparative power in-game.