And that never happens with mental health issues?
They've never done double blind studies with psychiatric drugs?
They have. Its a lot harder to track than a platelet count or tumor size. Because of that, it also doesn't seem to have quite the standards that that other drugs do for testing, or the ADHD pharmapaloza(as others are going into) wouldn't be as bad as it is.
Hell, they've never done double blind studies with therapy?
Granted you can't fool people into thinking they're getting therapy when they're actually getting nothing
Which is a big chunk of the problem. I can't figure out how the hell you can account for people bottling it in, and no one seems to be willing to say "here's how you test that"... and this isn't exactly my first conversation on the topic.
but then there are issues with the placebo as well.
Which is why they're tested the way they are. We KNOW placebos work a little bit, so you subtract those results from the results of the drug being tested.
And you certainly can compare results of different forms of therapy and obviously of drugs.
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You can kind of. Its qualitative rather than quantitative most of the time, which makes me a little leery of trusting it.
And the people who DO Bottle it or just bury it up don't show up for study. You have no idea how many of these people there are, how well they're dealing with it, or any data on them to compare with talk therapy.In broad statistical terms, I agree, it's difficult to know, but on individual terms I think it's pretty easy to tell.
Someone who is able to go through life and perform all tasks normally might not be "happy", but at least whatever method they're using is allowing them to go through life and perform all tasks normally.
The problem is when our methods breakdown or no longer work. Someone who is constantly reliving negative experiences in their mind, such as someone with PTSD can't just "bottle it up", because it makes ordinary tasks difficult or dangerous.
What are you looking for? Are you expecting me to design and write a study in a field of expertise I have no training or experience in?
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What are you looking for? Are you expecting me to design and write a study in a field of expertise I have no training or experience in?
Find out. Ask around.
If you can't do that... if talk therapy really is resting on something that is ultimately less than scientific? Then it simply becomes one idea out of dozens (hundreds?) to consider on their own merits on an individual basis. Until we get a better look inside the blackgray box of the brain mental health is more like cooking than science.
This doesn't mean you NEVER try talk therapy. It doesn't mean you never try drugs. It means that when listening to a psycological expert you add a little more salt.
And if you find that burying your emotions works for you? You proudly bear your chainsaw carved Enterprise E.
I am depressed so deeply and have been for so long that I find it difficult to see strong expressions of emotion as anything other than a mental disorder. At this stage it's difficult to comprehend genuine emotion.
I don't think like this on purpose. It's an effect of living under the weight of infinite nothingness.
What are you looking for? Are you expecting me to design and write a study in a field of expertise I have no training or experience in?
Find out. Ask around.
If you can't do that... if talk therapy really is resting on something that is ultimately less than scientific? Then it simply becomes one idea out of dozens (hundreds?) to consider on their own merits on an individual basis. Until we get a better look inside the
blackgray box of the brain mental health is more like cooking than science.This doesn't mean you NEVER try talk therapy. It doesn't mean you never try drugs. It means that when listening to a psycological expert you add a little more salt.
And if you find that burying your emotions works for you? You proudly bear your chainsaw carved Enterprise E.
Ummm... you just repeated a concept to me that was in my previous post.
Different methods work for different people, or even the same person in different situations.
I've even been talking about how the science of the brain isn't that great, so clearly solutions for problems resulting from said organ are going to be imperfect.
I suppose it's harder to talk down to someone if you actually pay attention to what they're saying though.
Ummm... you just repeated a concept to me that was in my previous post.
Which has been in my posts all along, that you seemed to be decrying as one true wayism.
I suppose it's harder to talk down to someone if you actually pay attention to what they're saying though.
I have no idea how to respond to a criticism that vague. Yes we're saying something similar, thats what i was trying to point out. I have no idea why I'd try to talk down to my own position.
Ummm... you just repeated a concept to me that was in my previous post.Which has been in my posts all along, that you seemed to be decrying as one true wayism.
I suppose it's harder to talk down to someone if you actually pay attention to what they're saying though.I have no idea how to respond to a criticism that vague. Yes we're saying something similar, thats what i was trying to point out. I have no idea why I'd try to talk down to my own position.
I didn't consider that final criticism vague at all. You repeat things back to me (from the sections you didn't quote in your posts) like I didn't also say them... but because I didn't say them, I'm wrong in my opinion.
You've clearly expressed a disinterest and disbelief in any effectiveness of talk therapy up until this point. You haven't suggested that people should seek out solutions that work for them, but rather been focused on how psychotherapy is quack science.
I scanned the thread, each page, but I didn't see a post from you with anything that really approached even ambivalence towards talk therapy... unless you count posts where you don't mention it at all. I could have missed it, feel free to link if you like.
I didn't consider that final criticism vague at all.
"talking down" is a matter of tone which... this is short printed text. It doesn't exist.
You repeat things back to me (from the sections you didn't quote in your posts) like I didn't also say them... but because I didn't say them, I'm wrong in my opinion.
You're doing the same thing and on top of that accusing me of one wayism.
I am maintaining agnosticism on the issue, and thus am supported by the fence :)
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Well, the question is does therapy work better than just bottling it up? I realize that saying "We can't know" and "might for some people, might not for others" is annoying, but I can't see any other position on the issue.
I am depressed so deeply and have been for so long that I find it difficult to see strong expressions of emotion as anything other than a mental disorder. At this stage it's difficult to comprehend genuine emotion.
I don't think like this on purpose. It's an effect of living under the weight of infinite nothingness.
im sorry that your depression is overwhelming you at this point in life. Is there anything you are doing right now to combat it or is that something you need a bit more energy to do?
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I know we've been agreeing for the most part, DMUtB, but I'm going to play Devil's Advocate from personal experience here:
- People WANT a pill or pills that just "make things better". Pills are easier than actually working. Want to lose weight? Take a pill! It's much better than a good diet and moderate exercise, though those have been shown to have countless physical and psychological benefits.
- People WILL search out new doctors or psychologists who will prescribe them those pills. My grandmother-in-law ended up going to EIGHT different doctors to get an entire pharmacopia of drugs. She was diagnosed with Alzheimer's and my father-in-law went up to take care of her. Horrified at the number of pills she was taking, he took her off of ALL of them. Voila! The Alzheimer's was miraculously "cured". It's hard to blame the doctors when SHE went out of her way to withhold information from them and asked for pills to treat specific symptoms caused by other pills the doctors didn't know about.
So yes, big pharma has lots to answer for, especially giving Americans a strong sense of, "Take a pill for it."
But blaming doctors/psychologists for prescribing pills because their patients say, "Give me a pill or I'll take my business to someone who will," is not 100% fair.
I am absolutely NOT saying such doctors are blameless. I'm saying there's lots of blame to spread around.
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Two of my close friends are ADHD-diagnosed. They both swear by the pills they are constantly popping. Of course, they both also swear by the weed that they're constantly smoking, so maybe there's something to this self-medication thingie.
Not that I am, in anyway, qualified to talk about psychotherapy, medication or Stoicism.
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Think "Mother's Little Helper"
Indeed.
"Your mother gets high and she doesn't even know it!"--David Crosby onstage at Monterey before getting kicked out of The Byrds
- People WANT a pill or pills that just "make things better". Pills are easier than actually working. Want to lose weight? Take a pill! It's much better than a good diet and moderate exercise, though those have been shown to have countless physical and psychological benefits.
And long term single digit success rates.
- People WANT a pill or pills that just "make things better". Pills are easier than actually working. Want to lose weight? Take a pill! It's much better than a good diet and moderate exercise, though those have been shown to have countless physical and psychological benefits.And long term single digit success rates.
Pretty much exactly my point. Pills are MUCH easier, so people want them for all of their problems, whether or not they're appropriate.
OTOH, I'd be seriously worried about taking her off of ALL of them. Trying to weed out which ones were unecessary, sure. Certainly going to different doctors to avoid letting them know what else you're taking is bad. It's bad medicine.
Not all things are fixable with better diet and moderate exercise. Not all physical problems and not all mental ones either. I do in general agree that we overprescribe and don't rely enough on more traditional ways of staying healthy. That doesn't mean that all drugs are bad. There are actual diseases and conditions that are best handled with medication. Even long term medication.
I put a lot of the blame for this on allowing drug advertising. Advertising is all about creating a need. A lot of need has been created. OTOH, the problem does go back farther. Think "Mother's Little Helper"
both my supervisor and myself and a former coworker pushed hard for more art therapy and physical exercise available in our program-walking groups, bowling leagues taking on other programs, even yoga and pilates groups. All were shot down due to budget concerns.
Two of my close friends are ADHD-diagnosed. They both swear by the pills they are constantly popping. Of course, they both also swear by the weed that they're constantly smoking, so maybe there's something to this self-medication thingie.
Not that I am, in anyway, qualified to talk about psychotherapy, medication or Stoicism.
mixing those isnt a good idea. Still, I am not diagnosed with adhd and do not smoke weed, so I am the last person to speak on this.
Pretty much exactly my point. Pills are MUCH easier, so people want them for all of their problems, whether or not they're appropriate.- People WANT a pill or pills that just "make things better". Pills are easier than actually working. Want to lose weight? Take a pill! It's much better than a good diet and moderate exercise, though those have been shown to have countless physical and psychological benefits.And long term single digit success rates.
If diet and exercise worked for 9 out of 10 people, or even half, I'd say that the problem was with the individual. When the success rates tank as badly as they do I say there's something physiological going on. Its not that its easier its that its almost necessary
OTOH, this brings us back to BNW's earlier point, in a roundabout sort of way. Who says diet and exercise don't work for most people? Most people don't go to doctors for weight loss pills. It's necessary for most who reach that state.
Nice try :) , but you can see how fat I am, you can't see how crazy I am.
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After much debate I have decided to make one final post in this thread where afterwards I will stop reading the replies. In this post I'm going to simply post my thoughts about the concept of "seeking professional help".
As I have stated, I am a Mental Health Professional and I in no way speak for all of them. To me what I do is similar to any other helping profession where I provide a service to those who want it for a fee. I don't view people as "income" but as people who believe they want the kind of help I can provide. There is the idea that what I do is nothing but talk but the reality of what I do is deeper than that. There is an episode of Futurama where Bender meets "God" and is told "if you are doing it right, it's like you are doing nothing at all". I make it a point to tell the people I help that they are doing most of the work so that they may someday gain the courage to face life without my help but I also know that I provide a lot of guidance, help increase awareness and generally work towards improving mental resilience.
As far as knowing the "efficacy" of therapy versus "holding your emotions in", the only thing I have to go on is my experience where most people have tried the "holding your emotions in" approach and feel like that is no longer working for them.
After lots of reflection on my part, I stand by my first comment of "seeking professional help". It was an assumption on many people's parts that I meant to go see a therapist or a doctor. Honestly, I'd rather know that the individual in need would seek any "professional" help as long as they feel that it will work for them. A big part of what I do is to convince people to believe in what will work for them. Everyone is an individual. For some, therapy is the right answer, others medication, and others still perhaps it is meditation or any number of things. The reality is there is no "one way" of getting better and I, for one, would never espouse differently.
Now, what I will do is defend my profession and what I do, which is what I have been doing all along. Personally, if you don't think therapy or medications work, that's fine just don't try to dissuade someone who is seeking help because you have a negative opinion of it. Before there is any "throwing stones in glass houses references", please keep in mind that from my perspective professionally the advice of "hold your emotions in" is just bad. Sure people do it all the time but not all of them are capable of continued functioning as a result.
In conclusion, I suggest doing whatever you feel will help, be confident in your decision and don't be afraid to find a different solution should your first or any others not work out for you. Having been on both sides (I've been in therapy and have been on anti-depressants) the most important thing is what you feel is right for you. I ask every single person who comes in my office if they "want to see a psychiatrist" as it is not guaranteed they will do so unless requested. I may be an expert on emotional and behavior disorders, but I am not the expert on the individual.
Edit: Ok I wanted to respond to this post
Nice try :) , but you can see how fat I am, you can't see how crazy I am.
with "but I can. ;-)"
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As far as knowing the "efficacy" of therapy versus "holding your emotions in", the only thing I have to go on is my experience where most people have tried the "holding your emotions in" approach and feel like that is no longer working for them.
Of course, your experience is biased by the fact that only those for whom "bottling it up" does NOT work would bother to seek you out. It works for me, as well as for BigNorseWolf and many others. While I can't speak for all of them, I imagine that very few make an apointment with mental health professionals in order to tell them that they don't need them. :P
As far as knowing the "efficacy" of therapy versus "holding your emotions in", the only thing I have to go on is my experience where most people have tried the "holding your emotions in" approach and feel like that is no longer working for them.Of course, your experience is biased by the fact that only those for whom "bottling it up" does NOT work would bother to seek you out. It works for me, as well as for BigNorseWolf and many others. While I can't speak for all of them, I imagine that very few make an apointment with mental health professionals in order to tell them that they don't need them. :P
Fair point.
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Meditation.First off, You need to be experienced with meditation to HELP control emotions!! I stress just the Help part. and i'm not talking close your eyes for 10 minutes a day. I'm talking Hours a day.
So no Novice is just gonna find a quick cure in meditations for a real problem.
My Buddhist monk friend does that shiznit. Like, he takes off a week from work and goes and meditates for eight hours a day.
Seems like a lot of work.
[Extinguishes joint]
As far as knowing the "efficacy" of therapy versus "holding your emotions in", the only thing I have to go on is my experience where most people have tried the "holding your emotions in" approach and feel like that is no longer working for them.Of course, your experience is biased by the fact that only those for whom "bottling it up" does NOT work would bother to seek you out. It works for me, as well as for BigNorseWolf and many others. While I can't speak for all of them, I imagine that very few make an apointment with mental health professionals in order to tell them that they don't need them. :P
Bottle it up, or move on, or let it go (no, don't sing the song), or ignore and distract with some wonderful part of life, or channel frustrations down other channels or towards fitness, or come to terms with problems and issues and move forward without paying a lot of cash (Galtan path of cheapness ftw). Introspection is free. Resilience can be developed.
So much that a person can do to help with their own issues, or seek non-cost help.
That normal guy I knew that saw the psyche, was diagnosed with all manner of crazy s~!#. As rather less normal than that fellow, I will never sit on the couch and definitely discourage others from getting into it. When they can be as excessive as the example I saw and eager to cement their importance and place with a heavy-handed diagnosis. Who needs a new bout of labelling? Who wants to be a label? Lol.
Honestly, I know enough uni graduates that think they know everything, why would I seek out others? It is a bit funny. Funnier is that psychologists will cease to grow in power and influence as a cohort, and eventually fade from existence if they ever become viewed as unimportant or unnecessary (then they will start to become unemployed).
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DMutB: If you are referring to the heightened risk of suicide when just starting antidepressive treatment:
When a dangerous, serious depression improves, not every part of the capacity of the human mind returns at the same rate. From a situation where you're largely shut down, numb, incapable of feeling, lacking initiative, energy and so on, the brain is recovering to a fully functioning capability. Sadly, one of the first parts that come back is impulsiveness and initiative. At this point, without yet being capable of feeling hope, happiness or anything else rewarding, certainly there is a heightened risk of suicide.
So you shouldn't use antidepressants, right?
Well, in the above, I didn't say anything about antidepressants. It happens whenever depression gets better (which on average takes 6-18 months). It is a rather common observation after someone commits suicide that everyone around them is surprised - he was doing so much better the last week!
When you use antidepressants, this typically happens in week 2-3 of the treatment, if it does. So, is it better to risk it happening any which time if the depression passes on its own, or to know which weeks the person shouldn't be alone? Further, it is dangerous merely to be depressed, partly because of the risk of suicide, partly because the depressed person survives other health problems far worse - PLEASE seek professional help.
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I am very glad you posted that, Sissyl.
My best friend was a (post-mortem-diagnosed) manic depressive. When we all moved away from each other for grad school, he went into a horrific spiral of depression.
My friends called me up and let me know he was in trouble, so I went back home and spent a day with him. He cheered up immensely, and everyone congratulated me on getting him "back to his normal self".
A week later he was dead. (Suicide.)
I've always wondered about that.
Nice bit of closure for me.
Thanks!
Wow! Totally didn't mean to kill the conversation! This was way back in 1991 so it's been quite a while.
I have been learning much in this (generally polite) back-and-forth, so hopefully it's stopped because no one felt they had anything more to add, rather than because I posted something potentially touchy...
I'm sure that all the drugs and the therapy DO help some people. But I'm also just as sure that some other people do better by taking whatever it is that would be bothering.g them, putting it behind them, and moving on with their life...no "professional" help or drugs needed or wanted.It always saddens me to see people with this attitude. You wouldn't dare tell someone in a wheel chair to just put their severed spinal cord behind them and move on, yet you'll say that about people with psychiatric disorders. Why? Is it because you can't see what is wrong with them?
People have with different strengths and weaknesses. Some people can do tasks easily that others struggle with daily. It is no different mentally than it is physically.
Coming to grips with the limitations of your disability, and moving forward with your life while doing what you can and want to do is a bad thing?
It sounds healthy to me.
In many cases, mental illness prevents coming to grips with the limitation of your disability without some sort of professional treatment, simply because of how it affects your point of view. The unreasonable behaviors you exhibit due to mental illness seem reasonable to you due to mental illness.
I'm all in favor of people solving their problems when they can, but asking someone who's mentally ill if they feel healthy enough to deal with it on their own is a spectacularly bad idea.
I might be a bit late to this discussion, but it's three AM, I get up for work at 430, and I sure as hell am not going to try to go to sleep now.
Back when I was being trained to treat head injuries and brain-affecting afflictions such as one runs across in the wilderness (dehydration/heat issues, head wounds, hypothermia, and the like) one of the things I was taught was that brain issues often start with the higher reasoning and progress on down the line as the condition grows worse.
Sound judgment is among the early things hypothermia patients lose. Coordination, communication, consciousness, breathing follow in due course.
Or the case study guy who went over the handlebars of his bike. Punch drunk and aggressively insistent on toughing it out and getting back on the bike.
How do you tell that guy from a guy who is accurately assessing his bump on the head as just a harmless bump? Well, you get someone else to do it because if you're the guy with the bump on the head you're suspect.
I guess the general conclusion was that self-reliance and tending to one's own head works just fine in injury situations, right up until it fails.
At which point it may really fail, because the brain that is controlling treatment and response is the same brain that is malfunctioning.
I note that someone made a similar observation about mental health issues of less physically traumatic nature - toughing it out can work just fine, right up until it starts working really badly.
If i had a dollar for every time an emt told me "according to the book you're dead" i could afford one of those ambulance rides they were offering.
One of the fun things with an unusual mental state is when they can't figure out what's wrong with you.
It gets... interesting when your mental processes are abnormal and people who build their careers on knowing why are completely baffled. Want to know the psychiatrist-speak for "WTF!"? Just check my medical records.
Depression and ADHD have been identified, but they can't start pharmacological solutions because they're pretty certain there's something much, much more massively wrong... but can't find it. Autism is suspected, but I don't test on-spectrum, and they've noted that both my intelligence and capacity for processing of information tends to have a range to it.
That also explains some of my more unusual arguments on here; there is actually something wrong with how I think, but it's currently not treatable or identifiable.
psychiatrist speak for WTF?
NOS.
NOS means Not Otherwise Specified, i.e. If someone has a depressive episode NOS, there is no further specification to be had as it stands. Not quite WTF, but...
There's also "Patient is displaying atypical symptoms" without specifying what the symptoms are for.