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Taking 10 and Taking 20
A skill check represents an attempt to accomplish some goal, usually while under some sort of time pressure or distraction. Sometimes, though, a character can use a skill under more favorable conditions, increasing the odds of success.
Taking 10: When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure—you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn't help.
Taking 20: When you have plenty of time, you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, if you roll a d20 enough times, eventually you will get a 20. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20.
Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes 20 times as long as making a single check would take (usually 2 minutes for a skill that takes 1 round or less to perform).
Since taking 20 assumes that your character will fail many times before succeeding, your character would automatically incur any penalties for failure before he or she could complete the task (hence why it is generally not allowed with skills that carry such penalties). Common “take 20” skills include Disable Device (when used to open locks), Escape Artist, and Perception (when attempting to find traps).
Ability Checks and Caster Level Checks: The normal take 10 and take 20 rules apply for ability checks. Neither rule applies to concentration checks or caster level checks.
(remember, taking 10 also generally requires more time for the task)
Nope. Taking-10 takes the exact same amount of time as a roll. Taking-20 takes 20 times the amount of time.
If you need to get technical the rule is if you are in danger or not, not if you THINK you're in danger or not.
Nope. That is not in the Taking-10 rule.
It is not even in the Taking-20 rule.Thinking you are in danger could be a distraction, preventing Taking-10 and Taking-20.
Not all threats are immediate danger. Threats must be at the level of combat to be an immediate danger. Being in initiative order is an easy test for immediate danger.
The task at hand is not a distraction.
The possibility of failure does not preclude Taking-10.
Taking-20 automatically incurs the penalty for failure. This could be taking 1d6 hp of damage. If you don't care about the damage, you can still use Taking-20. However, the damage might be sufficient to be distracting, and thus preclude the Taking-20 effort. Most GMs rule damage = distraction, but there could be times when it is not.
==
While Taking-10 changes the success rate, it is a rule that has been in since 3.0. Like it or not, it is part of the game. It benefits the well prepared the most, and hurts the overconfident the most.
A sleeping dragon (real or not, sleeping or just pretending) can be stealthed past by Taking-10. Will that succeed? Depends on the dragon's perception vs. the characters stealth. If they choose to pretend they rolled a 10 (by Taking-10), they are actually giving up 2.5% since the average roll is actually 10.5. Can they beat the DC? Depends on how aware the dragon is. Should they try? If they pumped up their skill, then probably yes. If they are a klutz, then no. Do they know the DC? Maybe allow them a sense motive or perception check to estimate the DC.
What should the DC be? Depends on the CR needed for the encounter. Epic encounters use higher CRs, so the DCs should also be higher. Easy encounters should have lower CRs and thus DCs. Characters that pump Stealth should have a better chances, while those that are klutzes will have poor chances. If everyone pumps the skill, then they chose a play style that tries to avoid combat, and should have a better chances. Why should the dragon know the PCs abilities an better than the PCs know the dragons? It should be based on the CR, not the PC numbers.
/cevah
Low level pcs climb ruins. Mid level pcs climb castle walls. High level pcs climb smooth as glass walls of ice in a hurricane.
This is where the difference in our opinion differs I imagine.
Do high level PC climb smooth as glass walls because high level scenarios are made with this kind of abilities in mind, or do high level PC climb such walls because they are finally able to do so with their skills ?
And taking 10 is simply doing something routinely for the character.
If my high level PC is able to routinely climb smooth as glass walls of ice, why would he have to make the check in the first place ?
Is making the check something that will improve the drama ? Make a good story ? Or just being able to do it is enough and we can move on to the real story ?
I mean, for such a character, it's not climbing the wall that will be his challenge. The same way that crafting daggers is not a challenge for a skilled crafter or sneaking past a dragon in his lair is for a master rogue. Preventing characters from taking 10 is punishing them for being masters in their skills, punishing them for being very good.
You certainly won't mind accepting taking 10 for swimming through calm water, for sneaking past a drunk lone guard or tracking a pack of elephants through mud. It's just the same thing, but at a level so much higher that swimming for hours through rough water, sneaking past a dragon or tracking a mouse into a dungeon is as difficult for such character as the first tasks are for a beginner : routine, something you can't fail when you can focus on it.
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If I assume a fair slew of challanges it defaults to the latter because its incredibly advantageous to do so. No out of character knowledge required.
It's only advantageous until you run into something that you auto-fail on when you take 10...at that point, most people don't want to blunder into something taking 10 if they know that there is a chance they'll run into the same DC when rolling may have succeeded, so they will take their chances rolling. At least that's what most people would do.
I have VERY specifically and very repeatedly answered this already.
By ignoring or dismissing everyone else's points.
It was stated that if awake the dragon would devour the rogue. I closed this loophole already.
No you didn't. You may have said this in one response, but your general assertion has been simply that sleeping dragon disallows taking 10, without any further qualifiers (you say basically the same thing further down in this response).
If you need to get technical the rule is if you are in danger or not, not if you THINK you're in danger or not.
Which has been expanded upon and clarified by one of the game's developers (several times) to indicate how that should be interpreted.
Let's look at it another way...if you're climbing a wall, and are 5 feet off the ground, can you take 10? What about at 10 feet? 50? 100? 500? What if there is lava at the foot of the wall? Does the difference in height change whether or not you can take 10?
If you want to get thematic, you never have trouble starting a car until a serial killer is lurking underneath it.
No. It's not that the characters in films suddenly are incapable of starting their car when danger is near, it's that the CAR decided to act up in THAT MOMENT, because it's more suspenseful. It has nothing at all to do with the person.
The guard can only find you by succeeding at a spot check. The dragon can spot you (with blind sense) byThe guard can only find you by succeeding at a spot check. The dragon can spot you (with blind sense) by waking up to go to the bathroom at any moment.
I find the idea that you are not in immediate danger while sneaking past a sleeping dragon to be sheer torture of the english language. IF that was the intent, it missed by a mile.
First, the sneaking individual could be outside the range of the dragon's blindsense. Does THAT change whether or not they can take 10 in that instance? After all, now the dragon is just as capable as the guard of noticing you, and they may be equally as deadly, or the guard may be even more dangerous, yet we have an example from SKR of taking 10 to sneak by the guard, so why not the dragon? Also, even if you're sneaking closely past a dragon, you could take 10, succeed on your stealth, but still wake the dragon because it smelled you--it may now wake up knowing someone is there, but not be able to see or hear them.
The intent is that immediate danger, for the purposes of disallowing taking 10, should come from something BESIDES the task you're performing.
Part of your problem is that you're not applying the RAIndicated evenly across the different skills and scenarios.
I'm pretty sure the pro take 10 crowd would have issues with a lot of those.
The only thing thats immersion breaking is the characters knowing the difference between the other worldly being that's controlling them is saying "10" or rolling a solid polyhedron to decide their fate. Otherwise its a case of "This only happens at the worst possible time"
the PLAYER would know something is up because they can't take 10, but the character wouldn't.
Immersion breaking for the PLAYERS. Sure, good players can RP around their personal knowledge, but it's still not a great idea to tip your hand in such an obvious way. It's like someone searching the door for traps and your getting a big smile on your face, hesitating, and saying, "No. You don't notice any traps." Why do that? It should be a surprise, and stopping someone from taking 10 because YOU know about something dangerous that they don't does the same thing.
The concept of taking 10 isn't immersion breaking on its own--it's representing a character taking a little extra time, with a little more focus, to perform a task the way they should be able to repeatedly. It means they're not pushing themselves to try and do something better than usual.
By your reading, someone putting a gun to your head and shooting you if you miss the freethrow isn't a threat, because the freethrow is directly related to the consequences. As long as you make the freethrow you're fine, therefore you can take 10.
No. The gun pointed at their head is completely separate from taking the shot. It's being added in, and would count as an immediate danger and distraction.
Consider this...if you use climb, you'll be climbing something, and will almost always be in danger of falling some distance and getting hurt.
If you are using stealth, you are NECESSARILY trying to sneak past SOMETHING, and the consequence for failure will almost always be unpleasant, and will usually be dangerous.
When making a free throw, you NEVER have a gun pointed to your head, so that is clearly not something that is part and parcel to the task.
A bell curve is not a single number. Over a course of a few dungeons, a 3rd level character with a +12 disable device might find
1 DC 5
5 DC 20s.
2 DC 25s
1 DC 30.
If you follow setting a DC to get you something worse than that, You've increased the failure rate for the roller to levels i find unacceptably high, at which point i kill the rogue make a barbarian and just walk into the traps.
Your hypothetical bell curve is a bit off.
Perception and Disable Device DCs
The builder sets the Perception and Disable Device DCs for a mechanical trap. For a magic trap, the values depend on the highest-level spell used.
Mechanical Trap: The base DC for both Perception and Disable Device checks is 20. Raising or lowering either of these DCs affects the CR (Table: CR Modifiers for Mechanical Traps).
Magic Trap: The DC for both Perception and Disable Device checks is equal to 25 + the spell level of the highest-level spell used. Only characters with the trapfinding class feature can attempt a Disable Device check involving a magic trap.
So you're not really going to see traps with a DC 5 Disable Device check, since a 10 Dex commoner with a single rank in Disable Device could succeed at that 85% of the time. And a trap with a Disable Device of 30 corresponds to something like a Symbol of Pain Trap, which is CR 6 and comes from an AP volume for level 7+ characters.
Most mechanical traps for a level 3 rogue are going to be around DC 20 and will be pretty easy to bypass without much effort. But there might be a few DC 25 or 26 magical traps that the rogue will fail to disable if he takes a 10. And there may even be a DC 27+ magical trap that would be sprung if he took a 10 and failed. And that's why its a choice, whether to take 10 on an average/easy task or roll the dice for something more difficult.
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I stopped reading once the thread devolved to bickering, but here's my piece on taking 10:
I'm constantly reminding players to take 10 at our local PFS (when climbing or swimming, for example), and reminding GMs what the rules say about it. 'Distraction', which is pretty much just combat.
Taking 10 is there, as many others have said, to avoid failing on a low roll just because of bad luck. If you have the time to focus on the task at hand (and sneaking past a sleeping dragon is included here), you can take 10.
Example: I have an assassin in my WotW game. She's been on a lot of scouting and stealth missions, and I almost always take 10 on stealth. With a +11, I know I can usually sneak past guards if I'm careful where I go -- and as a professional assassin I should be able to do that! I've still been found when someone rolls a high perception (or I'm unlucky in a situation that requires a roll), but if my GM forced me to roll every time I would never be able to sneak anywhere, given the number of stealth checks involved in a single outing!
Similarly, I've taken 10 on disable device checks on those outings because I don't always have much time to get the job done. If it's tougher than a routine lockpick, then I roll for it, which can take multiple tries and precious time.
You don't need to change DCs when PCs increase their skills. In fact, it's a 'twit move' to do so. Leave the DCs where they should be for their level. They invested resources to have a high skill check, why would you try to make their investment a waste?
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Also, having run many high level(15+) adventures, I find many players take 10 less often once their skills get truly great - when you aren't as worried that rolling a 1 fails an easy task, why not roll? If I'm rocking a +42 Perception you better believe I'm rolling that fellow most of the time. Except when searching for traps, that's too much rolling.
If you cannot fail on a 1, why are you rolling? If I cannot fail, I won't bother rolling dice even in combat.
If you cannot fail on a 1, why are you rolling? If I cannot fail, I won't bother rolling dice even in combat.
My college gaming group referred to such situations as "tap the die" since there was no reason to pick it up and roll it.
For example, your spellcaster has a high enough Concentration skill bonus (3.5) that you will auto succeed on casting defensively. You say, "I cast Haste, and tap the die to cast defensively."
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Also, having run many high level(15+) adventures, I find many players take 10 less often once their skills get truly great - when you aren't as worried that rolling a 1 fails an easy task, why not roll? If I'm rocking a +42 Perception you better believe I'm rolling that fellow most of the time. Except when searching for traps, that's too much rolling.If you cannot fail on a 1, why are you rolling? If I cannot fail, I won't bother rolling dice even in combat.
Not all tasks are as easy as they seem, and opposed rolls are almost always worth rolling just in case you're going up against the paragon of the opposed skill.
If it's a known DC my group allows "take 1" to just auto-pass if the skill is high enough.
The point is that a highly skilled character, who does not know the DC, doesn't risk making a fool of themselves by rolling poorly on an easy task, is all.
The point is that a highly skilled character, who does not know the DC, doesn't risk making a fool of themselves by rolling poorly on an easy task, is all.
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I have found that most in the anti T10 crowd want there to be a chance of failure for tying your shoes.
As far as adjusting the DCs because someone improved their skill, do you increase the AC of all monsters just because the fighter took Weapon Focus? If not, then why do the exact same thing when the rogue acquires masterwork thieves tools?
I have found that most in the anti T10 crowd want there to be a chance of failure for tying your shoes.
As far as adjusting the DCs because someone improved their skill, do you increase the AC of all monsters just because the fighter took Weapon Focus? If not, then why do the exact same thing when the rogue acquires masterwork thieves tools?
Right. No one has actually suggested to raising a DC just because the rogue gets better tools. The anti-T10 crowd (actually one person in particular) has erected a strawman to that effect which they have proceeded to gleefully shred post after post.
Actually I have seen people do just that, specifically to prevent taking 10. Maybe not in this thread, but this issue has been around for a while.
If you're first level thats an average lock. If you're 10th level thats some insanely calibrated clockworth deathtrap with mercury switches.
So your players never see an evolution of their skills?
A lock is a lock, why would the lock to the governor's mansion suddenly be some epic contraption just because my character went up a few levels?
I should be able to come back to a lock like that and pass it with no effort because that's how far my character has advanced his skills. I've obviously made it a point to pump lockpicking..what's wrong with being able to pick tough locks easily?
Actually, it should be better to represent things you know/you can do with skill modifier + 10 (it's already that way in the rules, just written weirdly).
Someone with a modifier of +5 knows knowledge until 15, a swimmer can swim in rough water without risking drowing, a crafter can craft swords without any errors.
When you're out of your skill (above the skill modifier + 10), you are risking into things you do not know/master yet, things that are above your level (but still possible to do with luck and/or possibly many many tries).
You also may not be able to remember things/manage to do things when you're under severe pressure or under attack (the same way driving a car is easy for anyone, but driving a car with someone chasing you with a machinegun is different. It's not that you're less skilled, it's just that you're under such pressure that you can't focus entirely on your driving).
If you're first level thats an average lock. If you're 10th level thats some insanely calibrated clockworth deathtrap with mercury switches.So your players never see an evolution of their skills?
A lock is a lock, why would the lock to the governor's mansion suddenly be some epic contraption just because my character went up a few levels?
I should be able to come back to a lock like that and pass it with no effort because that's how far my character has advanced his skills. I've obviously made it a point to pump lockpicking..what's wrong with being able to pick tough locks easily?
Exactly. The DCs should be set to what is realistic rather than what is harder for the characters. If the characters are trying to break into the mayors house of a small town it doesn't matter if they are 1st level or gajillionth level the lock should be the same relatively low DC. If they are trying to break into the ancient, secret, dwarven vault then there is probably an insanely calibrated clockwork deathtrap with mercury switches and the DC is going to be appropriately high. If your PCs are routinely taking 10 on insanely calibrated clockwork deathtraps with mercury switches you might be setting an unrealistically low DC for that lock. So the next time the PCs encounter a different insanely calibrated clockwork deathtrap with mercury switches you will know the DC should be a bit higher to be realistic. Raising the DC in such an instance is not a "twit move" or an example of raising the DC just because the character got better.
The guard can only find you by succeeding at a spot check. The dragon can spot you (with blind sense) by waking up to go to the bathroom at any moment.
I find the idea that you are not in immediate danger while sneaking past a sleeping dragon to be sheer torture of the english language. IF that was the intent, it missed by a mile.
If you want examples of other things, besides combat, that could interfere with a check... Can you take 10?
-a noticed trap YES
-a trap that has gone off and is continuous (maybe continuously firing darts through the area you need to sneak) NO
-having to also carry something important/fragile/dangerous while sneaking YES
-communicating telepathically with your team MAYBE
-trying to appraise the loot the dragon is sleeping on while you're sneaking YES
-having to balance at the same time, because you're trying to move stealthy across a narrow ledge, or a slippery surface YES
-or climbing while sneaking YESI'm pretty sure the pro take 10 crowd would have issues with a lot of those.
My thoughts in bold. I think you could take 10 while telepathically communicating with your team unless they were going out of their way to distract you with their telepathic messages.
Is it perceived danger, or actual danger, that prevents taking 10?
Actual danger according to SKR.
Actually I have seen people do just that, specifically to prevent taking 10. Maybe not in this thread, but this issue has been around for a while.
I once created a sorcerer with incredibly high DCs. Most level-appropriate enemies needed a natural 20, or close to it, in order to make their saves. The GM knew this before we started play.
My sorcerer ended up getting continuously mocked by the rest of the party for "being useless" because enemies never failed their saves against her (she normally relied on all or nothing spells). Eventually, I grew tired of it and shut the rest of the party up by turning my spells against them.*
All three made extremely high rolls and, since it was them rolling and not the GM, all three failed anyways. It was then that we all, as a group, understood that the GM had been fudging the rolls all along.
That GM did not get to host again for a good long time, and even then, only with the understanding that, that was not to be tolerated.
* I do not recommend or endorse using in-game actions as a means of conflict resolution; I did so in this instance not out of malice, but to demonstrate a mechanical understanding to my fellow player.
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It was then that we all, as a group, understood that the GM had been fudging the rolls all along.
This is a pet peeve of mine. I really, really, really (did I say really?) hate this to the absolute, pitch black bottom of my evil little pea pickin heart. This is basically stealing player abilities. The GM might as well tell you that he is just taking one of your spells per day away from you arbitrarily because that is the net result. Our GM does this constantly. It is why when I GM I always make all rolls openly because that puts to rest any question of cheating which is what GM die fudging is.
Not in danger: stealthing into the bandit camp.
In danger: stealthing out of the bandit camp after they've noticed the theft and the alarms are blaring and guards are scrambling.Whats the difference? You're stealthed so you're not in danger right?
In the second case, it is very likely that the guards are taking 20 to find you, so taking 10 will probably not work and there is a time limit to getting out of the area in which case you can be considered to be rushed.
It was then that we all, as a group, understood that the GM had been fudging the rolls all along.This is a pet peeve of mine. I really, really, really (did I say really?) hate this to the absolute, pitch black bottom of my evil little pea pickin heart. This is basically stealing player abilities. The GM might as well tell you that he is just taking one of your spells per day away from you arbitrarily because that is the net result. Our GM does this constantly. It is why when I GM I always make all rolls openly because that puts to rest any question of cheating which is what GM die fudging is.
Good for you! :)
The GM in question now rolls in the open as well whenever he hosts a game. He's still pretty ruthless though (using coup de grace where possible and what not).
Not in danger: stealthing into the bandit camp.
In danger: stealthing out of the bandit camp after they've noticed the theft and the alarms are blaring and guards are scrambling.Whats the difference? You're stealthed so you're not in danger right?
In the second case, it is very likely that the guards are taking 20 to find you, so taking 10 will probably not work and there is a time limit to getting out of the area in which case you can be considered to be rushed.
Also, those sirens and the fact that there is a large, organized hostile force running everywhere is likely pretty distracting. (Though I would also grant the player a circumstance bonus to move silently due to those same sirens.)
Also, those sirens and the fact that there is a large, organized hostile force running everywhere is likely pretty distracting. (Though I would also grant the player a circumstance bonus to move silently due to those same sirens.)
Not in danger: stealthing into the bandit camp.
In danger: stealthing out of the bandit camp after they've noticed the theft and the alarms are blaring and guards are scrambling.Whats the difference? You're stealthed so you're not in danger right?
In the second case, it is very likely that the guards are taking 20 to find you, so taking 10 will probably not work and there is a time limit to getting out of the area in which case you can be considered to be rushed.
The other thing that gets lost in any discussion about taking a 10 on a stealth(and similar checks) check.... What about the rest of the party?
Taking a 10 is probably good enough for the party rogue to sneak past a dragon, but it will not cut it for the paladin in full plate. In some cases, a skill check is only needed by a single member. If anyone passes a perception check, they can communicate with the rest of the party, but with stealth, bluff and similar skills, you can bring the whole party in play.
An example of defeating taking a 10 on bluffing. Party bard is busy bluffing the captain of the guard with spells up, and a +insane amount to bluff. The NPC being a wise person who is experienced in law enforcement, asks another party member for their input, and thus forces them to also make a bluff check at a much lower skill rating. Side note: This is why the police take suspects, and question them separately. Suddenly, the bard just taking 10 won't cut it, and the party's ability to bluff their way out of a situation now relies on Dan the Dolt making a bluff check, not Benny the silver tongued Bard.
My thoughts in bold. I think you could take 10 while telepathically communicating with your team unless they were going out of their way to distract you with their telepathic messages.The guard can only find you by succeeding at a spot check. The dragon can spot you (with blind sense) by waking up to go to the bathroom at any moment.
I find the idea that you are not in immediate danger while sneaking past a sleeping dragon to be sheer torture of the english language. IF that was the intent, it missed by a mile.
If you want examples of other things, besides combat, that could interfere with a check... Can you take 10?
-a noticed trap YES
-a trap that has gone off and is continuous (maybe continuously firing darts through the area you need to sneak) NO
-having to also carry something important/fragile/dangerous while sneaking YES
-communicating telepathically with your team MAYBE
-trying to appraise the loot the dragon is sleeping on while you're sneaking YES
-having to balance at the same time, because you're trying to move stealthy across a narrow ledge, or a slippery surface YES
-or climbing while sneaking YESI'm pretty sure the pro take 10 crowd would have issues with a lot of those.
Yeah?
I would think that mixing tasks would preclude the ability to take 10 on something, since splitting your focus would necessarily be distracting.
Consider: when we see people sneaking in films, they occasionally pause to take a reading of their surroundings, listening intently, peering at something only partially discernible, communicating via radio/wireless communicator, etc... When they DON'T stop and take a moment to do this (such as communicating while still on the move), that is often when they get noticed.
I'd say no to a noticed trap, because unlike the guard or dragon, you're not sneaking by the trap--it has no perception--but you do need to be careful not to set it off, so it's kind of a separate task.
For carrying something you have to focus on...consider walking with a bowl filled with water all the way to the brim. That requires considerable attention to avoid spilling any.
Telepathic communication I'd agree with you about: it's a MAYBE. If you're merely reporting your progress, or having an equally low-focus conversation, sure, but if you're laying plans for what happen when the fighting starts, or having an argument, I'd say that's distracting.
As for using Acrobatics or Climb while sneaking, again, that seems like you'd need to split your focus. Normally when employing stealth you'd be placing your feet and shifting your weight just so, and maintaining a certain speed, but if you have to balance at the same time, now you have to change how and where you step, perhaps sliding your feet instead, etc... This is also the sort of situationwe often see the sneaking protagonist get noticed: they've gotten past several guards easily already, but while they're shimmying along a ledge a story above a couple of sentries, their foot slips, or they kick a pebble, and reveal their position.
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An example of defeating taking a 10 on bluffing. Party bard is busy bluffing the captain of the guard with spells up, and a +insane amount to bluff. The NPC being a wise person who is experienced in law enforcement, asks another party member for their input, and thus forces them to also make a bluff check at a much lower skill rating. Side note: This is why the police take suspects, and question them separately. Suddenly, the bard just taking 10 won't cut it, and the party's ability to bluff their way out of a situation now relies on Dan the Dolt making a bluff check, not Benny the silver tongued Bard.
It's especially fun to do to a PC who dumped Cha down to 7 with the intention of never rolling social skills. You don't want to do it all the time, and a truly skilled con artist can overcome a dead weight companion, but every once in a while it's good to make the players sweat in this fashion. You should never be able to count on your dump stat not coming back to bite you.
The other thing that gets lost in any discussion about taking a 10 on a stealth(and similar checks) check.... What about the rest of the party?Taking a 10 is probably good enough for the party rogue to sneak past a dragon, but it will not cut it for the paladin in full plate. In some cases, a skill check is only needed by a single member. If anyone passes a perception check, they can communicate with the rest of the party, but with stealth, bluff and similar skills, you can bring the whole party in play.
An example of defeating taking a 10 on bluffing. Party bard is busy bluffing the captain of the guard with spells up, and a +insane amount to bluff. The NPC being a wise person who is experienced in law enforcement, asks another party member for their input, and thus forces them to also make a bluff check at a much lower skill rating. Side note: This is why the police take suspects, and question them separately. Suddenly, the bard just taking 10 won't cut it, and the party's ability to bluff their way out of a situation now relies on Dan the Dolt making a bluff check, not Benny the silver tongued Bard.
That is a really exceptional point. That rogue taking 10 to sneak past a dragon is usually just scouting. So the rest of the party has to get by eventually. There is no way the paladin in full plate is tip toeing past that thing even if he rolls a 20.
The other thing that gets lost in any discussion about taking a 10 on a stealth(and similar checks) check.... What about the rest of the party?
Taking a 10 is probably good enough for the party rogue to sneak past a dragon, but it will not cut it for the paladin in full plate. In some cases, a skill check is only needed by a single member. If anyone passes a perception check, they can communicate with the rest of the party, but with stealth, bluff and similar skills, you can bring the whole party in play.
If the whole party can't make it with Take 10, then they can't make it at all. Even if they could make it with Take 10, but weren't allowed to for some reason, then they can't make it. Someone will roll low.
Even if it's a party of 4 rogues and they all need to roll 6+. No problem with Take 10. 75% chance for each of them to sneak by. Less than a 1% chance they'll all make it.
Right, so if you don't allow them to take 10 in that instance you are virtually telling them they can't sneak past at all.
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Use it all the time, because it saves time, as the default.
Its the "go too" result.
All city guards are assumed to T10 perception...PCs are assumed to T10 stealth. The majority of the time the PCs succeed BUT sometimes they don't...Sgt Eyes with +8 Perception may be around that day.
If the players want to roll, fine, but most of the time they just want to play the game and not sit there rolling dice like monkeys.
Also, those sirens and the fact that there is a large, organized hostile force running everywhere is likely pretty distracting. (Though I would also grant the player a circumstance bonus to move silently due to those same sirens.)
Not in danger: stealthing into the bandit camp.
In danger: stealthing out of the bandit camp after they've noticed the theft and the alarms are blaring and guards are scrambling.Whats the difference? You're stealthed so you're not in danger right?
In the second case, it is very likely that the guards are taking 20 to find you, so taking 10 will probably not work and there is a time limit to getting out of the area in which case you can be considered to be rushed.
The other thing that gets lost in any discussion about taking a 10 on a stealth(and similar checks) check.... What about the rest of the party?
Taking a 10 is probably good enough for the party rogue to sneak past a dragon, but it will not cut it for the paladin in full plate. In some cases, a skill check is only needed by a single member. If anyone passes a perception check, they can communicate with the rest of the party, but with stealth, bluff and similar skills, you can bring the whole party in play.
An example of defeating taking a 10 on bluffing. Party bard is busy bluffing the captain of the guard with spells up, and a +insane amount to bluff. The NPC being a wise person who is experienced in law enforcement, asks another party member for their input, and thus forces them to also make a bluff check at a much lower skill rating. Side note: This is why the police take suspects, and question them separately. Suddenly, the bard just taking 10 won't cut it, and the party's ability to bluff their way out of a situation now relies on Dan the Dolt making a bluff check, not Benny the silver tongued Bard.
I did bring it up and even broke down the numbers.
I did bring it up and even broke down the numbers.
Apologies, that what I get for trying to skim the 100+ posts that happened since yesterday.
The other thing that gets lost in any discussion about taking a 10 on a stealth(and similar checks) check.... What about the rest of the party?
Taking a 10 is probably good enough for the party rogue to sneak past a dragon, but it will not cut it for the paladin in full plate. In some cases, a skill check is only needed by a single member. If anyone passes a perception check, they can communicate with the rest of the party, but with stealth, bluff and similar skills, you can bring the whole party in play.
If the whole party can't make it with Take 10, then they can't make it at all. Even if they could make it with Take 10, but weren't allowed to for some reason, then they can't make it. Someone will roll low.
Even if it's a party of 4 rogues and they all need to roll 6+. No problem with Take 10. 75% chance for each of them to sneak by. Less than a 1% chance they'll all make it.
This isn't true. If you have 4 people sneaking, and one fails their stealth check, they don't all fail. Now, sure, the result may be the same as all of them failing, but it could also result in one or more people being noticed while the rest remain hidden.
I did bring it up and even broke down the numbers.Apologies, that what I get for trying to skim the 100+ posts that happened since yesterday.
You need to step up your forum camping skills. I bet you are letting little things like a job, family and other real life issues get in the way of your message board reading. Gotta have priorities dude! Become the Paizo Forum!
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This isn't true. If you have 4 people sneaking, and one fails their stealth check, they don't all fail. Now, sure, the result may be the same as all of them failing, but it could also result in one or more people being noticed while the rest remain hidden.The other thing that gets lost in any discussion about taking a 10 on a stealth(and similar checks) check.... What about the rest of the party?
Taking a 10 is probably good enough for the party rogue to sneak past a dragon, but it will not cut it for the paladin in full plate. In some cases, a skill check is only needed by a single member. If anyone passes a perception check, they can communicate with the rest of the party, but with stealth, bluff and similar skills, you can bring the whole party in play.
If the whole party can't make it with Take 10, then they can't make it at all. Even if they could make it with Take 10, but weren't allowed to for some reason, then they can't make it. Someone will roll low.
Even if it's a party of 4 rogues and they all need to roll 6+. No problem with Take 10. 75% chance for each of them to sneak by. Less than a 1% chance they'll all make it.
Generally speaking, in the situations we are talking about, one member of the party failing is functionally equivalent to the entire party failing.
That the dragon example, while the dragon is asleep, the dragon takes a +10 to the DC of ALL perception checks. One person wakes up the dragon. Now, the dragon was asleep and taking 10 + perception with a +10 +distance/10 to all perception DCs, but now that they are awake, the dragon is taking 1 move to look for the rest of the party at d20 + perception + disance/10, the other move action is used to close in on the party's location at 30-60 feet per round. It is only a matter of time before the PCs break stealth and start running, start a fight, or the dragon finds them. Worse, a smart dragon will pretend to not see the PCs until they are close enough to pounce.
In the bluff example, questioning another party member and having them fail their bluff check could be enough to make the questioner suspicious enough that they hold the PCs to see if the story checks out(and it won't) instead of just letting them walk away.
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I also think that the story progression should be considered.
Random town guard that at worst would result in a quick fight, T10 seems the best option as not to slow down the game with a pointless combat or bluff interaction or whatever. In short the random guard is backdrop not story.
Now the dragon sleeping. Always a roll in my books. I'll assume the dragon is there for a reason and important. Why roll? Because chance/skill now plays a part in the story. Is the dragon deeply asleep or just napping? The perception check die roll helps determine that. The players would be rolling likewise. Obviously the story takes a very different turn if the dragon wakes verses continues to sleep.
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Is it perceived danger, or actual danger, that prevents taking 10?Actual danger according to SKR.
This is wrong.
The text sais "not in immediate danger". It does not say "not in danger". This is a huge difference.
Immediate danger: Barbarian is charging at you with weapon drawn.
Non-Immediate danger: Barbarian talking with buddies and will attack if they spot you.
Same danger, different immediacy. The former precludes Taking-10, the latter allows it.
Even if it's a party of 4 rogues and they all need to roll 6+. No problem with Take 10. 75% chance for each of them to sneak by. Less than a 1% chance they'll all make it.
Math error. Success is 75%, failure is 25%.
(fail)*(fail)*(fail)*(fail) = (25%)*(25%)*(25%)*(25%) -> less than 0.4%. This is the chance of all four failing.
(succeed)*(succeed)*(succeed)*(succeed) = (75%)*(75%)*(75%)*(75%) -> more than 31%. This is the chance of all four succeeding.
/cevah
Is it perceived danger, or actual danger, that prevents taking 10?Actual danger according to SKR.This is wrong.
The text sais "not in immediate danger". It does not say "not in danger". This is a huge difference.
Immediate danger: Barbarian is charging at you with weapon drawn.
Non-Immediate danger: Barbarian talking with buddies and will attack if they spot you.Same danger, different immediacy. The former precludes Taking-10, the latter allows it.
Perhaps I misspoke, but that's pretty much what I was meaning to say.
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And remember how multiple rolls make the odds so much worse. If everyone has to roll or even if the ranger and rogue have to roll multiple times, you might as well just attack the dragon.
I completely agree. As DM I would use a roll vs a take 10 when I wanted a little more uncertainty in the situation. Really would come down to if the players were likely to have more or less fun. If they were fully ready or I knew the dragon would parley then roll. If the party was not looking so hot and the players were just a bunch to homicidal manics and take 10 would be an auto-success I would go with that. TPK's are fun for exactly no one...
Even if it's a party of 4 rogues and they all need to roll 6+. No problem with Take 10. 75% chance for each of them to sneak by. Less than a 1% chance they'll all make it.Math error. Success is 75%, failure is 25%.
(fail)*(fail)*(fail)*(fail) = (25%)*(25%)*(25%)*(25%) -> less than 0.4%. This is the chance of all four failing.
(succeed)*(succeed)*(succeed)*(succeed) = (75%)*(75%)*(75%)*(75%) -> more than 31%. This is the chance of all four succeeding.
/cevah
And this is the chance of success each round.
Now, be in a situation where you have to sneak for a dozen rounds ? You have absolutely NO CHANCE AT ALL of success. You have 4 of the best rogues, trying to sneak past a sleeping dragon, and they just fail. 100% of the time (well, 99,999998993% of the time exactly).
By allowing to take 10, you let them win this part of the infiltration, which doesn't mean the dragon won't wake up for one thing or another (a simple silent alarm spell somewhere, or anything else).
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Wait.
Make everything harder, just because one player is good at it?
That is a dick move.
Why even have DCs, if you just want the PCs to fail?
"You fail, because your buddy is too good at it." is a stupid excuse, for anything.
I don't understand this "reward mediocrity" mentality.
You end up with "Blag, the clumsy village idiot" who succeeds at everything, and seems to make everything easier for those around him, for no damn reason.
Then you have "Bob, the sneakiest man in the world", who always fails at sneaking, and somehow makes everyone around him worse at being sneaky.
Who the hell wants to play that way?
That's a crock of reasoning. Fun for who?
The cackling DM, who knows every player will eventually fail?
Does he know that it's not all about just his fun?
Well for Games Workshop at least; their mantra is "rolling dice is fun, tolling lots of dice is lots of fun." :)