Hi,
I planning to go the Arcane Archer root, but one thing bother me.
To become an AA your character has to be level 7, at this level every character should have at least a +1 weapon.
As the Enhance Arrows Bonus (+1) did not stack with an already existing bonus of arrow or bow, where is the sense behind this ability at all?
And by level 16, the AA has +1 holy, shocking burst arrows of distance. For free (or the cost of a pack of normal arrows). I could think of better things to spend 72,000gp on at level 16.
@Simon: This is like a feat-sink, something like "if you want to take power attack, you have to take another feat first, which will not give you anything..."
@LazarX: I know that, but neitherless, the first level of AA didn't give you anything. The enchantment bonus don't even increase in level (like in 3.5)
I think here Paizos "removal of dead level" philosophy failed.I think something like a weapon training (bow) would be better or like the paladin/magus weapon enchantment which scale with level and can be traded for special enchantments
@Simon: This is like a feat-sink, something like "if you want to take power attack, you have to take another feat first, which will not give you anything..."
@LazarX: I know that, but neitherless, the first level of AA didn't give you anything. The enchantment bonus don't even increase in level (like in 3.5)
I think here Paizos "removal of dead level" philosophy failed.I think something like a weapon training (bow) would be better or like the paladin/magus weapon enchantment which scale with level and can be traded for special enchantments
The magus spends a point from his arcane pool to enchant his weapon for one minute.
The total bonus maxes at +5 at 17th level. These bonuses can't exceed +5 on a previously enchanted weapon.If the weapon is non-magical, a +1 must be applied first before choosing other enchantments.
The bonuses have a limited list on enchantments which do not include alignment enchantments.
The arcane archer does that all for free permanently. No need to use a tracked pool to do so. Other than that, enchant arrow seems to me almost exactly equivalent. I'm not seeing how the magus arcane pool is better.
The arrows have to be +1 before they have other enchantments added. That is the point of the ability.
Does it necessarily do much for the character? Not in most cases. If you have your bow lost/stolen/sundered/disjoined then your weapon is still magic. You could carry a back up non-magic bow in case you get disarmed/greased and your weapon is still magic.
But the key is that you must have the +1 to add the later abilities.
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I personally see it as a safeguard v. the GM tactic of "Sunder-the-Bow", so that your character can't be made near-useless by a simple[and possibly easy] combat maneuver. Not a really great ability, but a decent one that leads to some more interesting abilities. And it can also if you take the PrC to its end, get a free +5 equivalent bow that will mostly stack with a +5 or +10 equivalent bow, or save you quite a few gold as you can sell your weapon and get something new.
If you cave and buy yourself a bow, you only get a little less than 1500 gp. (when you sell your bow back.)
No, don't do that.
Since the arrows are never more than +1, you should focus on getting as high an enhancement bonus bow as you can, and take the free stuff from the arrows on top.
Once you have a +5 bow, keep adding stuff the arrows don't give you.
You can have a
+5 distance, flaming burst, holy, icy burst, shocking burst, thundering bow
for the cost of just a
+5 icy burst, shocking burst, thundering bow
I'm not seeing how the magus arcane pool is better.
For me it's not the question of "better" but "more intresting".
I also think that if someone develops his character towards a specific prestige class he should get something for it as soon as he get the prestige class and don't have to wait till PC level X.It's like "Yeah I will play a wizard, but I will get no spells till level 3, but at level 8 I will rock" .. it's wrong.. from a game design standpoint.
Rephrase of the Magus Ability as replacement of "Enchanted Arrows":
Arcane Arrows(Su): At 1st level, the arcane archer gains a reservoir of mystical arcane energy that he can draw upon to fuel his powers and enhance his weapon. This arcane pool has a number of points equal to 1/2 his arcane archer level (minimum 1) + his Intelligence modifier. The pool refreshes once per day when the magus prepares his spells.
At 1st level, a arcane archer can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a swift action to grant any bow he is holding a +1 enhancement bonus for 1 minute. For every two levels beyond 1st, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +5 at 9th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5. Multiple uses of this ability do not stack with themselves.
At 3rd level, these bonuses can be used to add any of the following weapon properties: flaming, frost, shock, corrosive.
Adding these properties consumes an amount of bonus equal to the property's base price modifier (see the Magic Weapon Special Ability Descriptions). These properties are added to any the weapon already has, but duplicates do not stack. If the weapon is not magical, at least a +1 enhancement bonus must be added before any other properties can be added. These bonuses and properties are decided when the arcane pool point is spent and cannot be changed until the next time the magus uses this ability. These bonuses do not function if the weapon is wielded by anyone other than the magus.
At 5th level the arcane archer add distance to the list of weapon properties.
At 7th level the arcane archer add flaming burst, icy burst, shocking burst and acid burst to the list of weapon properties.
At 9th level the arcane archer add Holy, Unholy, Chaotic and Lawfull to the list of weapon properties.
A magus can only enhance one weapon in this way at one time. If he uses this ability again, the first use immediately ends.
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Also the following changes to the other AA abilities
Imbue Arrow: unchanged
Seeker Arrow (Su): free action, cost 1 arcana pool (affects level arrows per round, arrows have to be fired this round or magic fades)
Phase Arrow (Su): standard action, cost 1 arcana pool
Hail of Arrows (Su): full round action, cost 1 arcana pool
Arrow of Death (Su): no change
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What do you think?
*shrug* As I see it, your house rule is actually making the AA class worse. As samasboy1 pointed out, you're now stuck having no better than a +5 weapon ever. Plus you're introducing a tracked resource that is used to make the ability last for a shorter duration. I think that's crazy, but to each their own.
Hi,
I planning to go the Arcane Archer root, but one thing bother me.
To become an AA your character has to be level 7, at this level every character should have at least a +1 weapon.As the Enhance Arrows Bonus (+1) did not stack with an already existing bonus of arrow or bow, where is the sense behind this ability at all?
You're correct. It's pretty useless. A good fix for the AA would be to allow them to choose X amount of enhancement bonus and/or abilities each day. That way you can synergize with whatever bow you have and you have no useless levels.
Because frankly, if you qualify for Arcane Archer and a +1 enhancement bonus means anything to you, something is seriously off-kilter.
Instead I'd recommend house-ruling it to be more like the Paladin's weapon bond, in that at levels 1, 3, 5, 7, and 9 you get +1 worth of new abilities. You could either use it to raise your effective enhancement bonus (IE - +1 to +5, like the 3.x arcane archer), or to add special abilities (such as flaming, distance, seeking, bane, etc).
Otherwise, yes, the Arcane Archer is a prestige class that has suffered greatly in Pathfinder. It's more restrictive than it was in 3.5 (because in 3.5 where it gave +enhancement bonus, you would then get special abilities on your bow, whereas now you are stuck with elemental bursts that mean nothing vs most high level enemies). Its glory days were actually in 3.0 where you needed progressively higher +X bonuses to hit stuff that had massive damage reduction. Back then, being promised +5 ammunition plus whatever you could put on your bow was really nice.
AA in Pathfinder is horrible. The only thing it's actually good for is using retraining shenanigans to get an arcane archer / eldritch knight. Even then, it's mostly filler.
Had the arcane archer been created after the Magus, I'm sure it would be similar in description/use. Few if any arcane abilities aside from the arcane archers enhancements have unlimited uses. It goes against the concept of channeling the energy from the world around you and focusing it into the weapon.
Honestly, I think, if anything, there needs to be an archer archetype for the magus that basically replaces the arcane archer altogether, as it would fit the current state of the game far better. Unfortunately, it's impossible to make changes like that this late in the game.
Try this.
Enhance Arrows (Su): An arcane archer can enhance arrows as they are fired, granting them an enhancement bonus or ranged weapon special abilities, such as flaming or distance. Arrows enhanced by the arcane archer only function for her.
At 1st level, the arcane archer may add a +1 enhancement bonus or up to +1 worth of special abilities (such as bane or distance). Once the effects of her enhance arrows ability are chosen, it takes 10 minutes to change them again (so it would take the archer 10 minutes to go change from firing flaming arrows to firing distance arrows).
At 2nd level, and every 2 levels thereafter, the archer may increase the effective enhancement bonus that she may add by +1 (+2 at 3rd, +3 at 5th, etc). The archer may use any combination of enhancement bonus or special abilities up to this limit (so a 5th level arcane archer could treat all arrows fired as +3 arrows, merciful, distance, seeking arrows or any other combination as long as the enhancement bonus plus equivalent special abilities do not exceed her effective enhancement bonus).
An arcane archer can grant special abilities with enhance arrows even if the arrow does not already have an enhancement bonus. Thus a 1st level arcane archer can grant a +1 equivalent special ability (such as flaming) to an otherwise mundane and unremarkable arrow when she fires it.
The bonuses granted by a magic bow apply as normal to arrows that have been enhanced with this ability. Only the larger enhancement bonus applies. Duplicate abilities do not stack.
Rapid Enhance Arrows (General, Combat)
You have become adept at quickly changing the enhancements of your arrows, allowing you to change them in the heat of combat.
Prerequisites: Enhance Arrows class feature
Benefit: You may now change the effective enhancement bonus granted by your enhance arrows ability as a full-round action.
Normal: It takes 10 minutes to change the effective enhancement bonus granted by your enhance arrows ability.
Swift Enhance Arrows (General, Combat)
You can change your arrow enhancements with but a focused thought.
Prerequisites: Enhance Arrows (+3) class feature, Rapid Enhanced Arrows
Benefit: You may now change the effective enhancement bonus granted by your enhance arrows ability as a swift action.
Normal: It takes 10 minutes to change the effective enhancement bonus granted by your enhance arrows ability.
Spell Storing Arrows (General, Combat)
You have learned to deliver certain spells through your arrows using your Enhance Arrows ability.
Prerequisite: Enhance Arrows class feature, Imbue Arrows class feature
Benefit: As a swift action, you may store a targeted spell you have available to cast into an arrow and have it take effect when it strikes a target, similar to a spell storing weapon. You cannot store a spell of a higher level than your effective enhancement bonus added with Enhance Arrows (thus if your effective enhancement bonus is +2 you can store up to a 2nd level spell) and your effective enhancement bonus is reduced by the level of the spell stored for that arrow (thus if you store a 2nd level spell you lose +2 worth of enhancement bonuses or special abilities to that arrow).
Otherwise, yes, the Arcane Archer is a prestige class that has suffered greatly in Pathfinder. It's more restrictive than it was in 3.5 (because in 3.5 where it gave +enhancement bonus, you would then get special abilities on your bow, whereas now you are stuck with elemental bursts that mean nothing vs most high level enemies). Its glory days were actually in 3.0 where you needed progressively higher +X bonuses to hit stuff that had massive damage reduction. Back then, being promised +5 ammunition plus whatever you could put on your bow was really nice.AA in Pathfinder is horrible. The only thing it's actually good for is using retraining shenanigans to get an arcane archer / eldritch knight. Even then, it's mostly filler.
OTOH, unlike 3.x it now gets spell progression. Not great spell progression, but that's still better than nothing. Might make Imbue Arrow actually useful.
It's still pretty limited though.
Yeah. I was getting at the fact at least in 3.0 that had something that made them pretty special. If you were a dedicated archer, you definitely wanted your bow to have the highest +X enhancement bonus available, which meant that you didn't have room for any special abilities. Whereas with the arcane archer, your class gave you the enhancement bonus with any bow and you could then get sweet stuff like distance and holy on your bow without getting ruined by the high DR of enemies (IIRC, I think pit fiends and balors had DR 30/+4 or something to that extent).
Admittedly imbue arrow was pretty bad. It hasn't gotten that much better though IMHO. Aside from the novelty of shooting an antimagic field at really high levels (and that's not that amazing since arrows don't "stick" to you when you hit somebody with them), in most cases they could have probably just cast the spell.
For example, most of the spells you'd want to imbue generally have medium to long range anyway.
Given the prerequisites of the class (1st level spellcasting but +6 BAB) it looks like it would be more suited for being an archer with a splash of magic than a magician with a splash of archer. :P
Ok, I talked to my DM and we figured something out, what do you think?
Additional Requirement:
Must be able to use an arcane bond (weapon)
Enhance Weapon
Ath the first level the Arcane Archers Weapon becomes his bonded object (all previous bonds are broken).
Also he get an Arcane Pool equal half his AA level + his primary caster attribute. This pool regenerate every morning.
The AA can use his pool to enhance his bow for a short time. As a swift action he can spent one point of his pool to add an +1 enhancement bonus to his bow for 1 minute. This bonus stack with existing boni but the total bonues can be never higher then +5.
At 3rd level he can also adding fire, frost, shock or corrosive enhancement to his bow by reducing the bonus by 1 (the bow has to have at least a +1 bonus)
At 5th level he can also at Distance by reducing the bonus by 1
At 7th level he can also add the elemental burst enhancement to the bow by reducing the bonus by 2
At 9th level he can also add the holy, unholy, chaotic or lawful enhancement to the bow by reducing the bonus by 2
He has to choose at the beginning of the day (while preparing his spells) which bonus he want to apply to his bow for the day.
Also it's not possible to add different elemental affects with this ability to the weapon.
You can add multiple elemtal affects to the bow with this ability (which all reduce the bonus) but you have to choose once you activate the ability which elemental affect you want use.
Example:
an AA level 5 decide to add fire and frost to his bow for this day, the Enhance Weapon Bonus will be: +1 fire or +1 frost
Imbue Arrow (Su)
Changed so you can also add touch spells to the bow
Seeker Arrow
Now it's a swift action, last for one round and cost one Arcana Pool
Phase Bolt
Standard Action, cost one Arcana Pool
Hail of Arrows
Full-Round Action, cost one Arcana Pool
Arrow of Death
DC changed to 20 + primary caster stat
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What do you think? Overpowered, underpowered, intressting, boring?
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I would never play an AA with an arcane pool instead of the standard ability. Spending an Arcane pool point to use enchant arrow is a waste, and while the standard +1 is wasted in most situations, there will be times when it is useful
Regardless, at this point this thread has moved outside of rules and into homebrew, so I am flagging it to be moved.
I already created a post there with an appropriate headline
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2r22n?Arcane-Archer-Revamp-Arcane-Archer-20
;)
Hold on a second, if you know you will be an arcane archer, why would you get a +1 bow? I would definitelly get something else with 2000 gp.
Or talk with yout GM and ask him to let the bonus stack with the bow, AA damage output isnt stellar by any means, so i dont think it would get out of hand.
Hold on a second, if you know you will be an arcane archer, why would you get a +1 bow? I would definitelly get something else with 2000 gp.
Or talk with yout GM and ask him to let the bonus stack with the bow, AA damage output isnt stellar by any means, so i dont think it would get out of hand.
Because you are still going to want a higher enhancement bonus than +1. That's fairly obvious.
And you may well want one for those levels before you can take Arcane Archer.Because you are still going to want a higher enhancement bonus than +1. That's fairly obvious.Hold on a second, if you know you will be an arcane archer, why would you get a +1 bow? I would definitelly get something else with 2000 gp.
Or talk with yout GM and ask him to let the bonus stack with the bow, AA damage output isnt stellar by any means, so i dont think it would get out of hand.
Yeah that too. :)
Ok, I talked to my DM and we figured something out, what do you think?
Additional Requirement:
Must be able to use an arcane bond (weapon)Enhance Weapon
Ath the first level the Arcane Archers Weapon becomes his bonded object (all previous bonds are broken).
Also he get an Arcane Pool equal half his AA level + his primary caster attribute. This pool regenerate every morning.The AA can use his pool to enhance his bow for a short time. As a swift action he can spent one point of his pool to add an +1 enhancement bonus to his bow for 1 minute. This bonus stack with existing boni but the total bonues can be never higher then +5.
At 3rd level he can also adding fire, frost, shock or corrosive enhancement to his bow by reducing the bonus by 1 (the bow has to have at least a +1 bonus)
At 5th level he can also at Distance by reducing the bonus by 1
At 7th level he can also add the elemental burst enhancement to the bow by reducing the bonus by 2
At 9th level he can also add the holy, unholy, chaotic or lawful enhancement to the bow by reducing the bonus by 2
He has to choose at the beginning of the day (while preparing his spells) which bonus he want to apply to his bow for the day.
Also it's not possible to add different elemental affects with this ability to the weapon.
You can add multiple elemtal affects to the bow with this ability (which all reduce the bonus) but you have to choose once you activate the ability which elemental affect you want use.Example:
an AA level 5 decide to add fire and frost to his bow for this day, the Enhance Weapon Bonus will be: +1 fire or +1 frostImbue Arrow (Su)
Changed so you can also add touch spells to the bowSeeker Arrow
Now it's a swift action, last for one round and cost one Arcana PoolPhase Bolt
Standard Action, cost one Arcana PoolHail of Arrows
Full-Round Action, cost one Arcana PoolArrow of Death
DC changed to 20 + primary caster stat...
Looks to me like you've ruined the class, but that's just my opinion.
Reason ?
Looks to me like you've ruined the class, but that's just my opinion.
I'm curious as to your rationale. The re-write trades out having the always on bow buff, but it' not like that was good to begin with; oh no, the worthless elemental effect and the highly situational Distance are gone. Holy was the only good one, but was also situational; as written you can actually have access to all 4 of the aligned properties instead of just one, so you can fill the gap as needed.
One thing is unclear: Is the ability supposed to scale enhancement bonus you add with level, because if it does I don't see it. All I see if you being able to subtract enhancement to add stuff without it saying how much enhancement you have to play with.
Besides that the other abilities all got straight buffed; they can now be used AA level + casting stat times per day in any combination instead of the limited number of times per day for each as in core.
Sorry forgot the enhancment Bonus scaling:
You start with an +1 Bonus at level 1 and every two levels after the first the bonus increase by 1 to a maximum of +5 at level 9
Reason ?
You changed the enchantments from the arrows to the bow.
You've limited the total bonus to +5. Using the AA clas as it is, you could get a +1 holy, shocking burst bow and fire +1 axiomatic, flaming burst arrows from it for example.You've added a pool that needs to be tracked. I don't play 5 minute workdays, I can see running out of points every day.
As you have it written, you have to choose which enchantments you are going to use for the day, then spend pool points to get those bonuses for one minute. That eliminates any flexibility you thought you were adding.
Takes a swift action to spend a pool point.
You can choose to put flame and frost on your bow but can only choose to use flame or frost when you spend your pool point to activate the enchantment. I don't even see the point of that.
That's just a few I could come up with quick. The way I see it, you're intentionally making the ability more complicated. I just don't see the need for it.
1. Bow or arrow doesn't matter at all as the numeric bonus doesn't stack by RAW (a +1 arrow fired from a +2 bow is still a +2 attack).
2. You can still get a +1 holy, shocking burst bow, axiomatic, flaming burst attack. The +5 is the same restriction which exists on weapons already and only count for the numeric bonus (the +X in the weapon description).
So you can still create a +1 holy, shocking arrow (+1 +holy (equal +2 Bonus) + shock (equal +1 Bonus), so you would still have one +1 Bonus free and could choose to add another elemental affect to choose from or increase the numeric bonus to +2)
3. I added the pool to get some decision in the class. For my playing games is about decision making, decision which matters. Giving somebody a flat "always +X to damage" did not add anything to the game
4. The original AA also have to choose his sort of enhancement at the begin of the day and it's static
"The elemental, elemental burst, and aligned qualities can be changed once per day, when the arcane archer prepares spells or, in the case of spontaneous spellcasters, after 8 hours of rest."
Also the numeric bonus at the PF AA did not scale, it's fix at +1.
Anything else?^^
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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1. Bow or arrow doesn't matter at all as the numeric bonus doesn't stack by RAW (a +1 arrow fired from a +2 bow is still a +2 attack).
Arrows or bow does matter when fighting incorporeal creatures. The enhancement bonus from the bow only transmits to the ammunition for DR purposes. A nonmagical arrow fired from a magic bow can't hurt incorporeal creatures by RAW. This may not be RAI but a stickler GM could enforce it.
Honestly, to me that's what the initial ability gives you - your nonmagical arrows are now magical, so you can shoots ghosts and shadows with them.
Ok, I didn't know that before, but moving the bonus from the bow back to the arrow shouldn't be THAT problem. ;)
It's more about the general mechanics etc.
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1. Bow or arrow doesn't matter at all as the numeric bonus doesn't stack by RAW (a +1 arrow fired from a +2 bow is still a +2 attack).
Arrows or bow does matter when fighting incorporeal creatures. The enhancement bonus from the bow only transmits to the ammunition for DR purposes. A nonmagical arrow fired from a magic bow can't hurt incorporeal creatures by RAW. This may not be RAI but a stickler GM could enforce it.
Honestly, to me that's what the initial ability gives you - your nonmagical arrows are now magical, so you can shoots ghosts and shadows with them.
This is true. RAW, a non-magic arrow shooting an incorporeal foe does nothing.
Your enhancement bonuses does not stack with your bow. That is a wash with arrows always being magic. However, every ability after that will stack with your bow.
You can have a +5 Endless Ammunition bow of Speed shooting Shocking Burst Holy arrows of distance. That's a +15 weapon. YOu can add in deliquescent gloves for corrosive for an effective +16. You can never match that with an Arcane pool.
Once you move the enchantment bonus from the bow to the arrow (see my previous post) it's possible at all...
+10 bow (spread on different enhancments) and then a +1 holy, fire, distance arrow form the "Enhance Weapon" ability => total bonus of +15
Can't really see where this shouldn't work with my changes...
Once you move the enchantment bonus from the bow to the arrow (see my previous post) it's possible at all...
+10 bow (spread on different enhancments) and then a +1 holy, fire, distance arrow form the "Enhance Weapon" ability => total bonus of +15
Can't really see where this shouldn't work with my changes...
I'm not going to ask you to make changes to your homebrew class to satisfy me, I'm perfectly happy with the way the class is now. And yes, I have actually played an AA (with no EK levels despite "needing" them).
If the changes you've made work for you, then use them. I never will because of the reasons I've stated. If the official AA class gets changed to the way you've proposed I'll either houserule it back to the way it was or stop using it. I'm not trying to fight with you, just giving some feedback like you requested.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Uh, citation? I am pretty sure this is not true1. Bow or arrow doesn't matter at all as the numeric bonus doesn't stack by RAW (a +1 arrow fired from a +2 bow is still a +2 attack).
Arrows or bow does matter when fighting incorporeal creatures. The enhancement bonus from the bow only transmits to the ammunition for DR purposes. A nonmagical arrow fired from a magic bow can't hurt incorporeal creatures by RAW. This may not be RAI but a stickler GM could enforce it.
Honestly, to me that's what the initial ability gives you - your nonmagical arrows are now magical, so you can shoots ghosts and shadows with them.
PRD quotes at ya:
Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon.
Is the only mention of bows making their arrows magical. Only for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Incorporeal (Ex) An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms.
A nonmagical arrow does not harm an incorporeal creature.
Btw, this is one area I houserule RAW away in my home games.
I'm not trying to fight with you, just giving some feedback like you requested.
Me neither, I just want to get kontruktive feedback, so I can make a "working" class out of the concept.
My biggest concern so far is the size of the "Arcana Pool", have to see how this works..