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While I’m one of the lucky ones, this depressing article hit close to home.
• College degrees are required for any decent job, and are now so expensive they require going into debt.
• Each specific job requires its own degree, making changing jobs extremely difficult.
• Picking the right major is impossible since what’s booming now could bust by graduation.
• Even if we do get a job, we’re required to work for free at first. This is fine for the affluent who don’t have to worry about expenses or debt.
• People need to know potential employers on a personal level if they want a job since 80% are unlisted. Looks like a perfect opportunity to abuse power.
• You can be fired for no good reason. At least being replaced by a computer makes economic sense.
• Allegedly, you’ll stop caring about this unfairness if you ever manage to be successful.
That’s the problem. How do we solve it?
With respect to the listing of positions, I know my day job at least has gotten into trouble in the past for too much "its who you know" in the past. Now all jobs are required to be listed at the company website, even if they are already filled (which gets people into a different type of trouble).
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Each specific job requires its own degree, making changing jobs extremely difficult.Picking the right major is impossible since what’s booming now could bust by graduation.
I'd contend these two points. I work for a major corporation and really any degree will get your foot in the door. Hell even ceramics will get you past an interview as long as you can swing it. Which ultimately comes down to how you sell yourself and less about the degree itself. There are exceptions to the rule but really the degree is a skill set not an entitlement to a career.
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I was going to post this myself, and now I don't have to!
Wong pretty handily summarizes all of my experiences through college (thrice!) and in the job market.
Corporate hierarchy is like a toilet; s!$# floats to the top.
Each specific job requires its own degree, making changing jobs extremely difficult.Picking the right major is impossible since what’s booming now could bust by graduation.
I'd contend these two points. I work for a major corporation and really any degree will get your foot in the door. Hell even ceramics will get you past an interview as long as you can swing it. Which ultimately comes down to how you sell yourself and less about the degree itself. There are exceptions to the rule but really the degree is a skill set not an entitlement to a career.
That's...kind of the point he's making. You need a college degree to do anything. Any degree will do, but it's the $100k paper that gets you in the door, not the skill set, because there are SO many people looking, and job searches are so automated on the employers' end that they don't give two f~@$s about most of the applicants, because they will undoubtedly be able to find one that magically fits their retarded standards for "senior widget maker" or somesuch.
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That's...kind of the point he's making. You need a college degree to do anything. Any degree will do, but it's the $100k paper that gets you in the door, not the skill set, because there are SO many people looking, and job searches are so automated on the employers' end that they don't give two f$&!s about most of the applicants, because they will undoubtedly be able to find one that magically fits their retarded standards for "senior widget maker" or somesuch.
Each specific job requires its own degree, making changing jobs extremely difficult.Picking the right major is impossible since what’s booming now could bust by graduation.
I'd contend these two points. I work for a major corporation and really any degree will get your foot in the door. Hell even ceramics will get you past an interview as long as you can swing it. Which ultimately comes down to how you sell yourself and less about the degree itself. There are exceptions to the rule but really the degree is a skill set not an entitlement to a career.
I cant argue the automated job search insanity. I have had several jobs go to the "perfect fit" only to watch them crash and burn. They give me the job finally and I hit a home run and they are like "why didnt we hire Pan to begin with?"
So the fact that so many people are looking and so many processes leaves little room for error means its more up to you than anything. I have changed fields several times with a plain old communications degree. Currently, I work in an engenieering field without the degree. Its not quite as damned if you do damned if you dont that the two points I contend make it seem.
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Read Ayn Rand.
3 options to Chang the system:
1: everyone who makes the system work (engineers, developers, it) "retire" and wait out the ensuing chaos.
2: become pirates. Fight everyone and take what you want. (Probably lose and die/go to prison)
3: work to perpetuate the system.
Since 1 & 2 are just about categorically impossible, find a soporiphic of your liking, assuage your guilt (or shame) and move on. Sadly, there really IS no way to change the system from within, it just wont happen.
So the fact that so many people are looking and so many processes leaves little room for error means its more up to you than anything. I have changed fields several times with a plain old communications degree. Currently, I work in an engenieering field without the degree. Its not quite as damned if you do damned if you dont that the two points I contend make it seem.
While I'm happy you've found gainful employment, you have to admit your experience is not typical. The author is not making categorical absolute statements, but rather pointing out strong general trends.
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people don't have to pay a ton for a four year degree.
go to community college for two years (it's cheap!) get your associate's degree. then, transfer to a state school for your last two years.
presto, you just saved HALF of your costs, and got the best part of the college experience.
also, and here's something to think about: major in something that will get you a job. Sciences, math, engineering, medicine. the stuff people are hiring for. yeah, the economy sucks in general, but there are plenty of sectors and regions there there is growth. put yourself THERE and you'll probably do better than most kids, who don't ever think about what life is going to be like after they graduate.
He is also David Wong a man who is never ever right. There are many points about college that are unfair, however for the most part they were far far less of an issue than for people without college degrees. Additionally most degrees are very broad in what jobs they qualify you for. The idea that you need a specific degree for a specific job is completely wrong. In fact most of the time just having any degree is enough.
I always wnated to ask if every college is so expensive in the us, there is no public college or soemthing?
That would be socialism and it is always evil.
In the USA at least.
The biggest problem we have is nonproperty owners voting. Biggest mistake we ever made. I don't care if they are black, jew, muslim, martian, and/or gay.
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The biggest problem we have is nonproperty owners voting. Biggest mistake we ever made. I don't care if they are black, jew, muslim, martian, and/or gay.
Why yes wealth disparity and social inequality created to benefit the wealthy would be fixed if we took more power away from the poor.
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Yes, the poor are ignorant and should work hard, make money, buy property, then vote. It is far better than poor people voting themselves breads and circuses from the state coffer, which eventually destroys all democracies.
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I always wnated to ask if every college is so expensive in the us, there is no public college or soemthing?
As far as I am aware, there is only one free accredited school in the United States, aside from teh military academies, which is Cooper Union in New York City.
Of course, only 400 students go there, and they are all brilliant, so...
Public colleges are run by the states, and are affordable, with loans generally, but beyond the reach of many people (for all expenses, $10k a year is probably a good yardstick).
Private schools are typically expensive, with the most expensive approaching $60k / year.
There are plenty of programs to make schools more affordable, but many of them are focused on loans, which means that lots of kids get out of school with loan payments that they struggle to pay.
I've been on both sides of the interview process for both major, multi billion and international companies, and small family owned companies. The idea that any degree gets your foot in the door is not true today. A new grad with ceramics will not get an interview for a statistical analysis job. Yes that is a scenario I've seen although it was a global studies degree instead of ceramics.
Once you've got even 2 years experience then you get the possibilities to find jobs somewhat outside your education. I will hire a kid with a couple years experience and an undergrad in communications for a programming position than a person with 2 masters. They both will get an interview but it takes experience to get through the stack of 4 year degree greenies. And over education is more likely to get you tossed in the reject pile.
What I'm trying to say is that there is some degree of luck involved to get to a point where you can sell yourself, and in a market where experienced people who will take pay for less than their experience would normally get. This decreases the odds of even getting to the interview.
Apprenticeships need to make a return.
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Yes, the poor are ignorant and should work hard, make money, buy property, then vote. It is far better than poor people voting themselves breads and circuses from the state coffer, which eventually destroys all democracies.
You do realize that Rome was at its height when free bread and mass entertainment existed right, and that Rome wasn't a democracy? The only democracy to truly collapse was Athens and there only people who owned land could vote. All other democracies that have fallen were destroyed in violent military coups. Most of those were caused by military personnel and veterans becoming disenfranchised with society or being mistreated. Name one democracy that allowed non-land owners to vote that has collapsed.
You're appealing to the Just World fallacy. Poor people usually aren't poor because they don't work hard. Most of them are poor because their parents were poor and as a result it was significantly harder for them to aquire desirable skills. As a result they can't get any jobs that pay enough for them to learn new skills while still having enough to eat. Thus they can only tread water with terrible minimum wage jobs giving them just enough to scrape by working 80 hour weeks. This is wage slavery and the reason we need unions and industry regulations.
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The biggest problem we have is nonproperty owners voting. Biggest mistake we ever made. I don't care if they are black, jew, muslim, martian, and/or gay.
you're an equal opportunity oligarch.
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Yes, the poor are ignorant...
Whereas you are enlightened? And so generous with your wisdom. You, sir, are truly the total package.
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You're appealing to the Just World fallacy.
This.
But don't be too hard on the guy...Atlas Shrugged was probably assigned reading. :P
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“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves Orcs.”
-John Rogers
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10k a year is very low, even for a state school.
Penn State main campus is over 20k for a freshman year with room, board, fees, and books, more if you're not a Pennsylvania resident.
it depends on the state, and the school.
i'm originally from Virginia, so i'm basing my info on what the rates are there, although they've gone up quite a bit recently, and might have exceeded my figure.
i know that in texas that the big, impressive state schools charge more than the smaller ones also. i would assume that penn state does the same.
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Yes, the poor are ignorant and should work hard, make money, buy property, then vote. It is far better than poor people voting themselves breads and circuses from the state coffer, which eventually destroys all democracies.You do realize that Rome was at its height when free bread and mass entertainment existed right, and that Rome wasn't a democracy? The only democracy to truly collapse was Athens and there only people who owned land could vote. All other democracies that have fallen were destroyed in violent military coups. Most of those were caused by military personnel and veterans becoming disenfranchised with society or being mistreated. Name one democracy that allowed non-land owners to vote that has collapsed.
the weimar republic comes to mind.
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I'm just gonna leave this here...
...of course, who wants to be a plumber/welder/garbage truck driver nowadays, huh?
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The biggest problem we have is property owners. Biggest mistake we ever made. I don't care if they are black, jew, muslim, martian, and/or gay.
Fixed that for you...
School sucks. Drop out now.
people don't have to pay a ton for a four year degree.
go to community college for two years (it's cheap!) get your associate's degree. then, transfer to a state school for your last two years.
presto, you just saved HALF of your costs, and got the best part of the college experience.
also, and here's something to think about: major in something that will get you a job. Sciences, math, engineering, medicine. the stuff people are hiring for. yeah, the economy sucks in general, but there are plenty of sectors and regions there there is growth. put yourself THERE and you'll probably do better than most kids, who don't ever think about what life is going to be like after they graduate.
the time period where that was true to the level you insinuate has long passed. Most four year colleges do not recognize credits from community colleges. Even if they are in the same system.
I always wnated to ask if every college is so expensive in the us, there is no public college or soemthing?
prices vary between what I believe you consider to be public colleges and private colleges. Both are quite expensive, however.
The biggest problem we have is nonproperty owners voting. Biggest mistake we ever made. I don't care if they are black, jew, muslim, martian, and/or gay.
The time period where that was true to the level you insinuate has long passed.
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I'm just gonna leave this here...
...of course, who wants to be a plumber/welder/garbage truck driver nowadays, huh?
The biggest problem with what Mike Rowe talks about is that it's 90% fantasy. They claim there's a massive skills shortage and nobody willing to work these jobs, it's untrue with only a few exceptions, ones that are for highly skilled tradesmen only, 10+ yrs experience welders in North Dakota for example. Now I'm not going to knock trades, we need people to do that, but you can see there's very little actual shortage by looking at the wages of most skilled labor, flat or receding. What's happening is you have companies who have openings, but they're not willing to pay people what those jobs are worth, so the people with skills aren't taking them, and they're also not willing to pay to train people for those jobs.
There is also the ever present threat of automation, some of the more dire predictions are that 47% of jobs are at risk of automation within 20 years, not just low skill crap jobs either; look at the advances in 3d printing, houses and air plane manufacturing are just two ares they're showing interest in.
But this all aside from the basic fact that there are more people who want jobs than there are jobs. The most common estimate I've seen is that there is 1 job for every 4 job seekers. So that means that if every single skill shortage and location mismatch were magically fixed and those jobs were filled, 3/4 of job seekers would still be out of work.
I'm just gonna leave this here...
...of course, who wants to be a plumber/welder/garbage truck driver nowadays, huh?
The biggest problem with what Mike Rowe talks about is that it's 90% fantasy. They claim there's a massive skills shortage and nobody willing to work these jobs, it's untrue with only a few exceptions, ones that are for highly skilled tradesmen only, 10+ yrs experience welders in North Dakota for example. Now I'm not going to knock trades, we need people to do that, but you can see there's very little actual shortage by looking at the wages of most skilled labor, flat or receding. What's happening is you have companies who have openings, but they're not willing to pay people what those jobs are worth, so the people with skills aren't taking them, and they're also not willing to pay to train people for those jobs.
There is also the ever present threat of automation, some of the more dire predictions are that 47% of jobs are at risk of automation within 20 years, not just low skill crap jobs either; look at the advances in 3d printing, houses and air plane manufacturing are just two ares they're showing interest in.
But this all aside from the basic fact that there are more people who want jobs than there are jobs. The most common estimate I've seen is that there is 1 job for every 4 job seekers. So that means that if every single skill shortage and location mismatch were magically fixed and those jobs were filled, 3/4 of job seekers would still be out of work.
indeed. I think we are heading towards an ugly utopia.
Yes, the poor are ignorant and should work hard, make money, buy property, then vote. It is far better than poor people voting themselves breads and circuses from the state coffer, which eventually destroys all democracies.
You might as well go back to the nobility system. The easiest way to get rich is to be born into a rich family. Skill, hard work, a genius money making idea...none of these guarantee you money. Heck, the people who usually get rich on skills, hard work and genius ideas are the ones who can afford to buy them in bulk.
I mean, are you seriously saying that the kind of person who keeps a miniature dog in there handbag or drives a sportscar around on drugs is better equipped to vote than Joe Average?
the time period where that was true to the level you insinuate has long passed. Most four year colleges do not recognize credits from community colleges. Even if they are in the same system.
As much as I think his point is privileged and kind of dumb, this is flatly not true. Maybe things are significantly different on the coasts, but in the Midwest and Southwest US 4 year colleges will accept virtually all credits from community colleges in their same state and the majority for credits from other states.
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The biggest problem we have is nonproperty owners voting. Biggest mistake we ever made. I don't care if they are black, jew, muslim, martian, and/or gay.The time period where that was true to the level you insinuate has long passed.
That time period was never. Divine right of nobility and land owners has always been a myth to oppress those born to less wealth.
the time period where that was true to the level you insinuate has long passed. Most four year colleges do not recognize credits from community colleges. Even if they are in the same system.As much as I think his point is privileged and kind of dumb, this is flatly not true. Maybe things are significantly different on the coasts, but in the Midwest and Southwest US 4 year colleges will accept virtually all credits from community colleges in their same state and the majority for credits from other states.
things are indeed significantly different on the coasts.
I worked a case last year where I dealt with a number of electricians. The journeyman electricians I dealt with were trained in trade school but made excellent money. Those who did trade school, became master electricians, and went back to formal school made absurd amounts of money. (They made $300/hour for consultation work on the case.)
Not something I've looked at in awhile, but I do know people on the east coast who were working that plan a few years back.things are indeed significantly different on the coasts.the time period where that was true to the level you insinuate has long passed. Most four year colleges do not recognize credits from community colleges. Even if they are in the same system.As much as I think his point is privileged and kind of dumb, this is flatly not true. Maybe things are significantly different on the coasts, but in the Midwest and Southwest US 4 year colleges will accept virtually all credits from community colleges in their same state and the majority for credits from other states.
It really depends on both schools involved, and if you make nice with the admissions people.
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I worked a case last year where I dealt with a number of electricians. The journeyman electricians I dealt with were trained in trade school but made excellent money. Those who did trade school, became master electricians, and went back to formal school made absurd amounts of money. (They made $300/hour for consultation work on the case.)
i work on drilling rigs.
most of the hands don't have a college degree. almost all of them earn at least $80k, with the majority earning well over $100k. work your way up to being a directional driller or a company man, and that number gets much larger really fast.
there's a market for skilled tradesmen. plumbers in affluent neighborhoods make good money, as do electricians, etc. college degrees are nice, but no guarantee that you'll be relevant 10-15 years from now... people will always need toilets and electric power.
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I've been on both sides of the interview process for both major, multi billion and international companies, and small family owned companies. The idea that any degree gets your foot in the door is not true today. A new grad with ceramics will not get an interview for a statistical analysis job. Yes that is a scenario I've seen although it was a global studies degree instead of ceramics.
You may have misunderstood what I meant by foot in the door. Yes I think it’s obvious a ceramics degree is not going to get you an interview for statistical analysis, but it will get you into entry level design or management. Now that you are in the company you can gain experience with the company and its systems. You can also start networking with the good folks on the statistical analysis teams. If for some reason you have an interest or experience, despite a degree in an unrelated field, your chances have gone up exponentially.
Once you've got even 2 years experience then you get the possibilities to find jobs somewhat outside your education. I will hire a kid with a couple years experience and an undergrad in communications for a programming position than a person with 2 masters. They both will get an interview but it takes experience to get through the stack of 4 year degree greenies. And over education is more likely to get you tossed in the reject pile.
This is more of what I was referring to.
What I'm trying to say is that there is some degree of luck involved to get to a point where you can sell yourself, and in a market where experienced people who will take pay for less than their experience would normally get. This decreases the odds of even getting to the interview.
What most people don’t seem to realize is that luck can be diminished by compromise, preparation, and experience. A bad economy makes for stiff competition, not to say there is weak competition for work in a good economy. People for some reason seem unwilling to compromise on positions not realizing that the corporate environment is a sea of opportunity. Whether you plan to stick completely to a degree related field, or work on a career, you need to get up and be running every day. Unfortunately, this isn’t something they are teaching in schools or people are simply not paying any attention. Frankly I’m not sure which is worse. I am not going to lose sleep though because I just reap the benefits of weak competition for jobs.
Apprenticeships need to make a return.
Perhaps. I just think people will be served best when they understand what a career means. I think people are caught up in “if I get X experience, or achieve y degree ill receive a job/career in return.” It’s that mentality that could use some adjustment.
