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How important is this for barbarians?
Playing one right now and trying to decide whether to spend my 4th level ability boost and 5th level feat on qualifying for and getting Raging Vitality but it's a feat-heavy reach weapon + UAS build and I'm not sure how Raging Vitality stacks up compared to Combat Reflexes.
Combat Reflexes boosts my offence with the reach weapon - I've twice been rushed by multiple enemies and only got to hit one of them as they approach. But I've also twice been reduced to single-digit HP in combat and am worried that as my temp HP get closer to my Con score, dropping out of rage on being knocked unconscious will kill me.
How often have you seen this happen?
It will save your bacon, and not having it will leave you dead before long. I feel this demonstrates a failure of the rage class feature, but that is another story.
It will save your bacon, and not having it will leave you dead before long. I feel this demonstrates a failure of the rage class feature, but that is another story.
This is why I'd suggest not to take until you have guarded life. As an additional plus, if you have both, the cure that brings you up will double effectiveness as it cures nonlethal and lethal damage, and you won't be fatigued out of rage.
It will save your bacon, and not having it will leave you dead before long. I feel this demonstrates a failure of the rage class feature, but that is another story.
I disagree with you here; I feel the "Barbarian sudden death" is more a feature than a bug. I always feel like I'm a badass going beyond his limits and holding off death to finish one final battle when I know I'm dead if my rage ends. Also note that you would have been dead long before you went unconscious raging if it wasn't for those extra hit points to begin with. Keep that in mind.
That said, Raging Vitality is very nice as it essentially gives you even more wiggle room to hold off death beyond what your character and any other should be able to take, but I wouldn't call it mandatory.
Somewhere in a previous thread people were doing math to see when taking raging vitality becomes a good idea.
Personally Id take it somewhere between level 3 and 7.
At level 3 when you fall unconscious while raging, you 'loose' 6 hp then and there. The big question is, would that be enough to kill you? Barbarians are made of con. I always have around 16. So level 3 I shouldn't need it yet. But you also dobt want to wait too long before taking it.
Yeah, the question isn't really "SHOULD I take Raging vitality" it's "WHEN should I get it?".
The answer to the should question is easy. Do you like your character and would be sad if he died? If yes, then get it.
Raging Vitality is a great feat, but it's not like you need it to survive. While I do plan on taking it at some point, I'm really not in a hurry.
It will save your bacon, and not having it will leave you dead before long. I feel this demonstrates a failure of the rage class feature, but that is another story.
That doesn't make any sense. Without the extra HP from Rage the character wouldn't have lasted as long in the first place.
My 3rd lvl barbarian died because I took Step Up instead of Raging Vitality.
Take it :P
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At level 3 when you fall unconscious while raging, you 'loose' 6 hp then and there. The big question is, would that be enough to kill you? Barbarians are made of con. I always have around 16. So level 3 I shouldn't need it yet. But you also dobt want to wait too long before taking it.
I'm certainly not made of Con - I rolled stats and so my Con is 14, which is why I need to spend a stat point to qualify for Raging Vitality. So if I don't take Raging Vitality at level 5, -4 HP = dead.
It will save your bacon, and not having it will leave you dead before long. I feel this demonstrates a failure of the rage class feature, but that is another story.This is why I'd suggest not to take until you have guarded life. As an additional plus, if you have both, the cure that brings you up will double effectiveness as it cures nonlethal and lethal damage, and you won't be fatigued out of rage.
1) Why do you think guarded life is a better not-dying choice than Raging Vitality if you only take one? It seems to me that the limit of 1 damage converted per barbarian level is not fantastic since you get 2*character level temp HP for raging.
2) How does guarded life prevent you from being fatigued for dropping out of rage?
Also what is there that is better?
As the OP stated, the alternative was Combat Reflexes, which would have been very handy that one time I was paralyzed by a ghoul that I probably would have been able to destroy in one hit on the approach if I hadn't already spent my AoO. But the Rage Power Quick Reflexes gives me a second AoO, so it's a decent patch on that.
At level 3 when you fall unconscious while raging, you 'loose' 6 hp then and there. The big question is, would that be enough to kill you? Barbarians are made of con. I always have around 16. So level 3 I shouldn't need it yet. But you also dobt want to wait too long before taking it.I'm certainly not made of Con - I rolled stats and so my Con is 14, which is why I need to spend a stat point to qualify for Raging Vitality. So if I don't take Raging Vitality at level 5, -4 HP = dead.
It will save your bacon, and not having it will leave you dead before long. I feel this demonstrates a failure of the rage class feature, but that is another story.This is why I'd suggest not to take until you have guarded life. As an additional plus, if you have both, the cure that brings you up will double effectiveness as it cures nonlethal and lethal damage, and you won't be fatigued out of rage.1) Why do you think guarded life is a better not-dying choice than Raging Vitality if you only take one? It seems to me that the limit of 1 damage converted per barbarian level is not fantastic since you get 2*character level temp HP for raging.
2) How does guarded life prevent you from being fatigued for dropping out of rage?
Also what is there that is better?As the OP stated, the alternative was Combat Reflexes, which would have been very handy that one time I was paralyzed by a ghoul that I probably would have been able to destroy in one hit on the approach if I hadn't already spent my AoO. But the Rage Power Quick Reflexes gives me a second AoO, so it's a decent patch on that.
Guarded life mitigates the death effect, while raging vitality exacerbates it with the con increase. As you said -4 = dead from rage (-1 with raging vitality). The advantage raging vitality gives you is that you can keep burning rage rounds while down to avoid dying. If you happen to get cured and get back up, you're still in rage (so not fatigued). Guarded life makes it take a bigger last hit (i.e. -9 = dead from rage) to kill you (you also auto-stabilize). But since cures give back 1 point of both nonlethal and lethal damage for each point cured, it's easier to get you back up. If you're going for a durability build, I might not take raging vitality until you have Greater Guarded Life, or just take extra rage and make sure your companions know to cure you fast if you go down. Depends on your group.
Raging Vitality is a necessary evil.
Think of it this way, you're a 5th level barbarian. You're raging, when suddenly you're knocked into unconciousness.
Without raging vitality your con drops by 4, which effectively reduces your hp by another 10 (5 levels * 2 from modifier change). Depending on exactly what your con is and where exactly the attack that made you unconcious left your hp you could drop straight to dead.
So, not dying plus 1 extra hitpoint per level? Yeah, totally worth it.
Barbarian feats to take:
Power attack, raging vitality and if you want your party to love you iron will.
Barbarian feats to take:
Power attack, raging vitality and if you want your party to love you iron will.
Why take iron will when I can take extra rage power. Superstitious line has lots of beautiful things to keep you from being dominated. Like... superstitious.
Also, it can make you so angry you can punch a ghost.
Barbarian feats to take:
Power attack, raging vitality and if you want your party to love you iron will.Why take iron will when I can take extra rage power. Superstitious line has lots of beautiful things to keep you from being dominated. Like... superstitious.
Also, it can make you so angry you can punch a ghost.
TRUE STORY!
I love the combination of Superstitious and Ghost Rager. You touch AC and saves are what? You've become the ultimate dominator of casters!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
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My partner and I simultaneously built barbarians, hers with and mine without. It could have kept mine alive once in 12 levels. Hers hasn't sniffed unconsciousness since level 1.
So, there's a pretty good chance you'll never need it. There's also a pretty significant downside to not having it.
Still, I regret nothing.
Barbarian feats to take:
Power attack, raging vitality and if you want your party to love you iron will.Why take iron will when I can take extra rage power. Superstitious line has lots of beautiful things to keep you from being dominated. Like... superstitious.
Also, it can make you so angry you can punch a ghost.
It also hoses you from your allies from being able to cure (or buff) you...
It also hoses you from your allies from being able to cure (or buff) you...Barbarian feats to take:
Power attack, raging vitality and if you want your party to love you iron will.Why take iron will when I can take extra rage power. Superstitious line has lots of beautiful things to keep you from being dominated. Like... superstitious.
Also, it can make you so angry you can punch a ghost.
Get a Cord of Stubborn Resolve, have fun laughing at that "Fatigue" thing you hear people talking about sometimes.
Or just don't Rage until you get buffed. Healing's not the biggest issue since in-combat healing generally means you're getting your ass kicked anyway and it's only save for half instead of negating for 90% of healing spells.
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Get a Cord of Stubborn Resolve, have fun laughing at that "Fatigue" thing you hear people talking about sometimes.
My Oracle/Barbarian don't need no stinkin' cord. ;)
Or just don't Rage until you get buffed. Healing's not the biggest issue since in-combat healing generally means you're getting your ass kicked anyway and it's only save for half instead of negating for 90% of healing spells.
In fairness, Heal is entirely negated by a Save, which is a bit of a problem since it's the only good non-emergency combat healing. Negating condition removal stuff is also a potential issue.
Potentially, but remember that with Superstition going (especially with Eater of Magic thrown on too) you're much less likely to be hit with a condition in the first place.
Yar. Personally I just think the benefits faaaaaar outweigh the downsides, though on rare occasions you'll be hosed.
Though on condition removal, the funny part is most anything with a duration (that still lets you act) can be solved just by hitting yourself in the face.
Spell Sunder is the absolute best possible thing.
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Yar. Personally I just think the benefits faaaaaar outweigh the downsides, though on rare occasions you'll be hosed.
Oh, I agree. It's pretty great.
Though on condition removal, the funny part is most anything with a duration (that still lets you act) can be solved just by hitting yourself in the face.
Spell Sunder is the absolute best possible thing.
This is all true, though it doesn't help much with paralysis. :)
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How in gods name did you fail a fortitude save at level 6+?
Hold Person is Will, and that's the first paralysis effect I thought of (not a very good one, I admit, but the point stands). Stunned, Dazed, and other such effects are also not helped, and they have all sorts of Saves. And then there's mind controlled...
My point was that you can't Spell Sunder if you lack the action to do so. Spell Sunder and Superstition are still great, I'm just pointing out that they aren't perfect.
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Without the extra HP from Rage the character wouldn't have lasted as long in the first place.
I've seen this argument before, and it ignores a very big point. There's a major difference in how much a PC is targeted depending on whether they are up and active or down and unconscious/bleeding.
A non-raging character has a buffer zone between being dropped and being dead.
A raging character without Raging Vitality, tends to go straight from "fine" to "dead" with no room for error. Sure it took more total hp to drop you but that hp stole away your buffer against being killed outright.
Most downed characters are no longer taking direct attacks. The barbarian who is standing purely due to rage is targeted as an "up" combatant - and this can lead to an abrupt death. It's a downside to Diehard as well.