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I've wanted to start doing PFS play for the longest time, and I was toying around with Hero Lab trying to build something to inspire me to get started. Looking at the Alchemist, I thought the vivisectioist would be perfect for me, but Hero Lab says it's not available in PFS. I was just wondering why?
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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First of all, welcome to PFS. It's great to have you. And you made a good choice about where to post your question.
Generally speaking, Wolfsnap, the campaign leadership is disinclined to explain reasons for decisions like this, but there were a number of archetypes banned at the same time and most of them, like the undead lord cleric and the gravewalker witch, were on the icky, macabre side of things.
Pathfinder Society wears many hats, and of of them is the public-facing demonstration of the game and the game world. And it seems that the campaign leadership at that time wanted a more family-friendly facing.
Plus its very easy to make an extremely powerful melee alchemist with it - and many would argue far too easy. It also makes rogues cry.
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First of all, welcome to PFS. It's great to have you. And you made a good choice about where to post your question.
Generally speaking, Wolfsnap, the campaign leadership is disinclined to explain reasons for decisions like this, but there were a number of archetypes banned at the same time and most of them, like the undead lord cleric and the gravewalker witch, were on the icky, macabre side of things.
Pathfinder Society wears many hats, and of of them is the public-facing demonstration of the game and the game world. And it seems that the campaign leadership at that time wanted a more family-friendly facing.
It's not quite that (fortunately). They could have just as easily removed the Reanimator Archetype, the Hungry Ghost Monk, the Plague Witch Patron, the Tumor Familiar and Parasitic Twin Alchemical Discoveries, and many other "icky, macabre" things, too - they didn't.
Their choices demonstrate more concern about things that would be more likely to provoke complaints about power balance or convenience of play (like Pack Lord and Reincarnated Druids, Broodmaster and Master Summoner Summoners, and Clone Master Alchemists) - they're pretty clear on "macabre =/= Evil," but they banned the Vivisectionist because it actually IS predisposed to Evil (even if it doesn't strictly have to be in practice), but furthermore, the Torturous Transformation ability grants some formulae that aren't allowed in Pathfinder Society, and the ability doesn't work too well in the Pathfinder Society context, either (since the awaken and baleful polymorph infusions require 24-hour surgical procedures to be implemented). The Undead Lord and Gravewalker (the latter of which I was disappointed by, having gotten mine up to 3rd-level when the news hit that they were no longer legal) may actually have gotten kicked out for "power" reasons, too: A negative-channeling Cleric is already terrifyingly powerful, and the Undead Lord gives it all kinds of More. Why they banned the Gravewalker is less clear, but it's possible it was actually because it was perceived as not powerful enough: You give up 3 Hexes (including your 1st-level one, which can be quite a problem early on) for abilities that, while good, are a bit specialized - and (and this may be the 'kicker' issue) the Aura of Desecration upon which the Gravewalker's other signature powers depend (including their would-have-been-especially-wonderful "voodoo doll" trick) is a double-edged sword since, as written, the bonus to negative energy DCs and turn resistance bonuses does not distinguish friend from foe (and negative-channeling Clerics don't need help being some of the scariest enemies in the game).
Vivisectionist was explained to be banned because it steps on the toes of rogues too often, and too well, and also because of it's fluff being in a grey area. Source.
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Vivisectionist was explained to be banned because it steps on the toes of rogues too often, and too well, and also because of it's fluff being in a grey area. Source.
Its actually really easy to make the rogue look bad.
Upcoming! Bard and slayer bans! Too metal for the society.
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Its the difference between lapping someone and lapping them while doing a mocking impression of them.
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Its the difference between lapping someone and lapping them while doing a mocking impression of them.
Yep. I would've figured that was immediately obvious, but I guess not.
Its the difference between lapping someone and lapping them while doing a mocking impression of them.Is that not done by so many more classes, than just the Vivisectionist Alchemist?
Vivisectionist is the only one that takes full sneak attack progression, though I suppose you could make an argument for ninja. Lots of classes make the rogue look bad, because well... he isn't exactly stellar.
Its come up before. Its also been said the rogue is weak to begin with, lots of classes can replace him in one way or another, and that the vivisectionist isn't the only class that can rip someone apart and the vivisectionist has the option not to. Probably easier to pick on the vivisectionist flavor.
I am pretty happy it is banned personally.
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Why?
I can't speak for Prince, but I'm happy vivisectionist is banned because it's too good.
Let's start with a straight up comparison.
Vivisectionists and Rogues have the same Hit Die, sneak attack progression, and BaB progression. No advantage.
Vivisectionists get Fort and Reflex as a strong save, while Rogues only get reflex. Advantage Vivisectionist.
The Vivisectionist is already pulling ahead of the Rogue, before we even get into unique class features.
For class features, Rogue gets:
Trap Finding - Situational, but useful
Evasion - Useful, but as a personal defensive ability. Gives the party no benefit
Uncanny Dodge - Situational, but still brings no utility to the party
Rogue talents - Let's be honest. Most of these are terrible. Almost every Rogue talent can be replicated by a feat.
For class features, Vivisectionist gets:
Extracts - Universally useful. Even without the infusion discovery, being able to turn yourself invisible, gain dark vision, or fly, brings a ton to the party
Mutagen/Cognatogen - Really good self buff spell. Doesn't really help the party, but allows you to be proactive, rather reactive.
Discoveries - You can grow wings, or give other players your extracts. Not a whole lot which helps the Vivisectionist here.
NOTE: We're assuming the Vivisectionist in question didn't take the Trap Breaker archetype and gain trap finding.
Most of the Rogue's abilities are based around reacting to what the enemy has done (fireball? evasion. flanking? uncanny dodge. Traps? trap finding), which means they're totally binary. If you never run across a trap or an enemy rogue, or never need to make a reflex save, then the Rogue doesn't get to do anything.
However, an experienced play can set up their extracts in such a way that they're useful regardless of enemy behavior (invisibility is always good), and the mutagen gives a huge boost to combat stats, which is useful any time there's combat (which is always).
SO, when I say that the Vivisectionist is better than the Rogue, what I mean is; it provides more versatility and is overall more useful when compared across ALL situations. Compared to the Rogue, who is extremely useful in some situations, but utterly useless in others.
I can't speak for Prince, but I'm happy vivisectionist is banned because it's too good.
Let's start with a straight up comparison.
have you considered comparing it to a slayer? Or how about a class that isn't a mundane, like a bard. Rogue is setting your standards pretty low.
Being better than the rogue at most of what it is capable of doing is a pretty low bar for the ban bat.
Yarr, you'd ban a lot of things then. Don't get much lower without being an npc class.
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You're both misunderstanding the point of my post.
I'm comparing it to Rogue because Vivisectionist gets full sneak attack progression, which is the Rogue's main class feature. What I'm trying to show, is that the Vivisectionist takes the Rogue's main class feature, then adds a bunch of other power features on top of that, making it a straight upgrade.
More powerful, but different is fine (no one is complaining that Wizard is better than Fighter). More powerful in the exact area is not.
You're both misunderstanding the point of my post.
I understand entirely, your comparing full sneak attack to full sneak attack, and the rogue gets his butt handed to him by a lot of other classes, including the 3 that get sneak attack who aren't him, and he's not the best at skills, and spells are the best at problem solving so he's not great there either.
Saying "Better than rogue" is a low bar because the rogue is one of the worst. I'd be more worried if they were doing better than your best, and to be honest the ninja is better at the rogue at sneak attacking and positioning and probably even tanking with mirror images as an option.
no one is complaining that Wizard is better than Fighter
Martial-Caster disparity is a thing, and that's the poster child. Might be more accurate to say no one is complaining the fighter is better than the wizard at casting spells and the wizard is worse at full attacking.
Saying "Better than rogue" is a low bar because the rogue is one of the worst.I feel like we are playing different games. I hear a lot of people say that rogues are the worst, and I just don't see it.
Rogues 4 life!
Glad you have fun with them, that's what matters most right?
They also happen to be mundane in a game where spells are and where most mechanical options beyond "I full attack!" are, which is unfortunate. They aren't even the best at being mundane because other classes can have more skill points and class abilities to compound their options in a given situation.
Edit: They also have a trap option in using TWF, which you'd think would be iconic, but really their attack is so low and TWF is feat intensive it might actually be better to use a Two handed weapon, which isn't at all what you expect. They also have seeming reliance on sneak attack, but vivisectionist and ninja both have a better deliver method, and the slayer and vivisecionist has less reliance. Coupled with bad weapon/armor profs they don't have too many options right from the start either, and archery can require a lot of investment too!
Rogue talents are also one of the few cases of class features you might consider trying to trade out for feats because their so bad feats are actually better, as opposed to rage powers, which are so good you could cram extra rage power in with no regrets.
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Honestly, I don't think the ban came as much from being better than rogues (though there certainly was some of that), so much as the archetype made it too attractive to take a 1 level dip in alchemist for every martial. They get to trade out bombs, which are largely useless if you only have one level in alchemist, for a sneak attack die. Combine that with the mutagen (which, ya know, stacks with rage and bull's strength), a free cure light wounds or shield extract every day, and the ability to activate healing wands? Way too powerful.
Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic
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Here is a link to a post in a previous discussion about the Vivisectionist in PFS, where I explain that if you would use the search function of the forum you would find that this discussion had already taken place multiple times.
Maybe we should leave this subect alone and discuss taking 10 or play, play, play?
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I don't really understand the why the bombs get bad rep. It's great having a renewable (Su) ranged touch attack. I've played a melee alchemist for 16 levels and just picking fast bombs and force bombs made him a great ranged combatant.
Bombs are fantastic. I've got a level 7 alchemist who uses them to terrifying effect. They simply aren't very good if you only have a single level in alchemist, which makes vivisectionist a far better choice for a one level dip.
I don't really understand the why the bombs get bad rep. It's great having a renewable (Su) ranged touch attack. I've played a melee alchemist for 16 levels and just picking fast bombs and force bombs made him a great ranged combatant.Bombs are fantastic. I've got a level 7 alchemist who uses them to terrifying effect. They simply aren't very good if you only have a single level in alchemist, which makes vivisectionist a far better choice for a one level dip.
Aye, they can be devastating if you go nova in particular, but at low levels you don't get many if any awesome tricks with them, and as a dip your not going to get scaling even. Later on you can throw out four bombs to confuse, entangle, knock prone, and nauseate in a round. Bombs can get pretty crazy! Biggest reason not to use them imo, is that they are AoE's and the party can get iffy about them, but precise bombs is pretty much a tax for that. That, or you just really want to play melee and ignore bombs, though they are a lot of versatility to give up imo.
As a dip you want might want vivisectionist, but this game really rewards single class and you probably want to keep your full BAB if your a martial anyway. Dipping for mechanical benefits takes a bit of thought and can really be punishing more than helpful in the long run.
