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So if a tool is defined, purchasable item for a particular skill--like Masterwork Thieves Tools, climbing kits, Pathfinder Chronicles, etc.--do those also need permission? They are circumstance bonuses, so the theoretical limitations should apply.
But if you tried to tell a rogue that his MW thieves tools don't work on this particular lock because you say so, I think you will have some issues with your players. And honestly, I would side with the players.
The others have covered the thieves tools aspect, but I wanted to touch on the Chronicles. If a player wants to use one to help their knowledge check to identify a monster in combat, then I think they're in for a bit of a disappointment as that free action to identify a creature becomes a 10 round plus slog through a textbook for a +2 circumstance bonus.
They are circumstance bonuses, because circumstances do matter and can in some cases negate the usefulness of any given tool.
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There are plenty of more expensive methods to get "always on" bonuses to skills so if you're concerned about failing UMD I'd look at one of those.
More expensive items? The Headband of Charisma, Circlet of persuasion (rather have a Jingasa, that is why I have a Magenta Ioun stone), perfume/cologn for a +1 to dip, and last there is an alchemical item that is 900 gp that will always give you a roll of 25.
That is about it as far as I know. The headband of charisma is not worth its cost for UMD alone. Because the character is a paladin, I am sure to increase it at least to +4 soon.
I have the Ioun stone. The +2 competence bonus seems plausible to get for a mwk tool. That is why I am doing research on the issue and have brought what I have here on this thread.
The idea is to get value for cost. That is why I would not spend gold for a +4 Headband of Cha just for UMD alone. This is also why I am not spending 900 gp on the alchemical item that gives a roll of 25. Wherever it is found, probably in the alchemical manual. I have that somewhere, I lent it to a friend I believe.
The characters wish list is the mwk tool, perfume, retraining for dangerously curious, belt of gi str +4, The upgrade to the headband to +4, and gloves of deliquescence.
Once I have the retraining, using scrolls will seem plausible. The target spells I have in mind are Heroism and Monstrous Physique II. Since, I am using Cha as my stat to emulate because right now it is an 18, I need a 26 for the Heroism and a 28 for the Monstrous Physique II.
I had a lot of fun W/Monstrous Physique II playing with a Magus. Both of these characters have got the trip feats and turning into a four arm monstrosity gives options, battlefield control, and firepower (such as being able to trip huge creatures) is just too good to pass up.
The mwk tool is ambiguous in the rules. I have never used it before because of the confusion it brings. It is something I will have to talk to each GM before the game starts. It is a pain but for now until I get the UMD of the Paladin up to where I do not need the mwk tool, it is something I see worth the inconvenience for a little while.
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The others have covered the thieves tools aspect, but I wanted to touch on the Chronicles. If a player wants to use one to help their knowledge check to identify a monster in combat, then I think they're in for a bit of a disappointment as that free action to identify a creature becomes a 10 round plus slog through a textbook for a +2 circumstance bonus.
Or it's a move action to pull the book from your Handy Haversack, a swift action to pop your wand of Kreighton's Perusal (Pathfinder Society Primer, page 10) from your spring-loaded wrist sheath, standard action to cast, and then free to tell everyone what you learned.
Dorothy came up with that some time ago for her character who was tired of not knowing what these things were that were attacking us.
contents, equivalent to having skimmed its pages for 1
hour. This insight is not sufficient to translate unknown
languages, decipher codes, or memorize text, but it
does allow the caster to learn what topics the book discusses—
invaluable to a Pathfinder who must make a snap decision when
performing research or deciding whether or not to abscond with
a volume. In addition, you instantly benefit from any bonuses or
effects the book would normally grant to anyone who reads it for
1 hour (such as the bonuses gained from reading volumes of the
Pathfinder Chronicles; see pages 26–27).
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If there is some reason that the judge would rule that thieves tools don't work... then thieves tools wouldn't work. Right? The rogue player has to rely on the judge to have a reason, you have to trust the judge to be playing by the rules right? If the judge is just "out to get the player" he could just as eaily say "it didn't work" or even "boom! trap goes off".
If I, as a judge, look down and see a note in the scenario that says something wierd like..."this 'trap' is an illusion and cannot be disarmed with the use of anything other the wooden spoon on the table", I am going to rely on the trust of my players - When I say the MW tools didn't help... "for some wierd reason".
But this "trust" issue goes both ways. As a judge, I have to trust the players to tell me enough to tell me when they think the circumstances would give them a bonus (or a penility), so that I can do my job and "judge" the situation.
In the illusion case, as the GM I wouldn't say "your MW tools don't help", I would simply let the rogue roll and say that it didn't work, no different from if they did not use the tools.
If there is a situation where you can make the check, but the tools can't apply, as a player I would have to trust but verify (ie, after the game, ask the GM why it worked that way so that if I disagree, we can discuss for future reference). In fact, as a GM I have had several times when I've told a player, "That doesn't work, I can't tell you why now but we can discuss after the game."
I think the real situation is for the vaguely-defined "masterwork tool" item. For those, I think it is clear from the way it is worded in the book that you should have the tool defined in some way and recorded so you can show the GM. That way when the circumstance comes up you can proudly point to your sheet and say, "I have just the thing!" :)
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The others have covered the thieves tools aspect, but I wanted to touch on the Chronicles. If a player wants to use one to help their knowledge check to identify a monster in combat, then I think they're in for a bit of a disappointment as that free action to identify a creature becomes a 10 round plus slog through a textbook for a +2 circumstance bonus.
Or it's a move action to pull the book from your Handy Haversack, a swift action to pop your wand of Kreighton's Perusal (Pathfinder Society Primer, page 10) from your spring-loaded wrist sheath, standard action to cast, and then free to tell everyone what you learned.
Dorothy came up with that some time ago for her character who was tired of not knowing what these things were that were attacking us.
** spoiler omitted **
Very cool. I don't know as I've ever read that one before (or if I did, it sure didn't stick). That would be an excellent way to use one in time restricted circumstances.
a chalk tip for wands
Yes, this works because my magic wands are actually pool cues! You think I'm healing you, but really I'm just aiming for the side pocket!
TRICKERY.
Having some problems coming up with a Masterwork tool for some of the following:
Acrobatics (Tutu?)
Appraise (Scales or Magnifying Glass)
Bluff
Fly (Tail like a kite?)
Sense Motive
Sleight of Hand
Alot of others can be reproduced with books/manuals.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Having some problems coming up with a Masterwork tool for some of the following:
Acrobatics (Tutu?)
Appraise (Scales or Magnifying Glass)
Bluff
Fly (Tail like a kite?)
Sense Motive
Sleight of HandAlot of others can be reproduced with books/manuals.
The problem is, that a masterwork tools adds to one method of using the skill, or it has a limited number of doses.
So, for example Sleight of Hand (+2 to hide object) big loose sleeves or Sleight of hand (+2 to entertain) masterwork juggling pins...
Fly is actually really easy. There is a material for that. (Griffin Mane)
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A perception tool I use for several PCs is:
"An iron ring with a handle, to concentrate my attention in a selected area, used much like a magnifing glass (thou it is just an iron ring - no glass in it). Only useful for vision based perception checks, occupies the hand when in use, and only works on active skill checks (when I am taking a move action to use it). I refer to it as a Perception Intensifier. I try always to mention when I am using it, normally by saying something like "I have a 25, 27 with my Perception tool". It is after all a circumtance bonus, and all circumstance bonuses must be approved by the judge.
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Having some problems coming up with a Masterwork tool for some of the following:
Acrobatics (Tutu?)
Appraise (Scales or Magnifying Glass)
Bluff
Fly (Tail like a kite?)
Sense Motive
Sleight of HandAlot of others can be reproduced with books/manuals.
My inquisitor of Pharasma *cough*Norgorber*cough* has a very fancy silver holy symbol of Pharasma that gives a +2 on bluff checks to pretend to be a Pharasman priest. Great tool for an undercover agent of the God of Secrets to impersonate another god's priests.
The limitation, of course, is that it only works on bluff checks for that one particular lie. He doesn't get the bonus on other uses of the bluff skill.
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man, this thread goes way off what my VC has been telling me. which is that you can only get MW versions of already existing items.
This is simply not true.
I'm sure THIS has already been linked in this thread, but here it is again in case it hasn't.
I spoke with Sean Reynolds and he advised that any skill is allowed to receive the +2 bonus per the Core Rulebook. These will be more clearly defined when the Ultimate Equipment Guide comes out.
Let me add one caveat. If people start trying to game the system and abusing this by carrying around 10 or 15 or 20 or 25 different tools, I will put a PFS rule into place limiting it to one masterwork tool per character. Please do not make me take this step. I am trusting the playerbase to use this ruling responsibly.
Another example of a masterwork tool I have is masterwork stirrups for +2 for ride checks to mount/dismount.
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claudekennilol, That's what I was telling him but he says that unless it's a defined item then it counts as crafting which is a no-no in society. Which is a shame because I really wanted a MW tool for using my Basic Geokinesis' Sift ability :(
Then again, this is that same guy that says each skill has to specify whether you can ever take 10 or not (and that you can't do it when failure results in a fight because he counts that as imminent danger) so sometimes I just have to grin and bear it for the only game in town (and he's a pretty great guy aside from some weird rulings)
Venture-Captain, Isles—Online
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my only issue with masterwork tools, is people automatically adding the bonus to ALL skill rolls without ever mentioning to the GM what the tool is or how it can be used.
This problem seems most prevalent online where people seem to routinely have a golf bag full of masterwork tools for a large number of skills.
this is one players list - and this is fairly common
Masterwork tool (Acrobatics)
Masterwork tool (Escape Artist)
Masterwork tool (Intimidate)
Masterwork tool (Knowledge [dungeoneering])
Masterwork tool (Knowledge [local])
Masterwork tool (Perception)
Masterwork tool (Sense Motive)
Masterwork tool (Sleight of Hand)
Masterwork tool (Stealth)
Masterwork tool (Use Magic Device)
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claudekennilol, That's what I was telling him but he says that unless it's a defined item then it counts as crafting which is a no-no in society. Which is a shame because I really wanted a MW tool for using my Basic Geokinesis' Sift ability :(
Then again, this is that same guy that says each skill has to specify whether you can ever take 10 or not (and that you can't do it when failure results in a fight because he counts that as imminent danger) so sometimes I just have to grin and bear it for the only game in town (and he's a pretty great guy aside from some weird rulings)
You showed him the post from the PFS coordinator and he says it's not allowed? He's the local guy in charge? Sounds like you need to email someone higher up the chain or show him the post in the guide that he has to abide by these clarifications.
It's definitely not crafting in any way shape or form.
To be fair, the GM in question has probably been seeing an extreme amount of argument and abuse by players trying to create all sorts of masterwork generic tools, in particular for social skills.
It pretty much has to be put into GM's call since so many of these corner cases are highly situation dependent.
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Unfortunately the clarification for that in ultimate equipment dropped it back into DM's call territory.Which is where it pretty much has to be, unless you really want to remove all the specific tools listed in the Core Rules and just have generic 50gp +2 to skill tools.
It's always been clear both from the description and the examples that tools are intended to be limited - either in number of uses or in what uses of the skill they apply to.
They could spell that out. Masterwork tools outside of the ones spelled out for you are available BUT only work on one listed use of the skill: So acrobatics would have one tool for balancing (weighted stick) , moving past foes (flashy distracting silk ribbons) , Jumping (springy shoes?),
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claudekennilol, That's what I was telling him but he says that unless it's a defined item then it counts as crafting which is a no-no in society. Which is a shame because I really wanted a MW tool for using my Basic Geokinesis' Sift ability :(
Then again, this is that same guy that says each skill has to specify whether you can ever take 10 or not (and that you can't do it when failure results in a fight because he counts that as imminent danger) so sometimes I just have to grin and bear it for the only game in town (and he's a pretty great guy aside from some weird rulings)
Thats not a bad definition of immediate danger.
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my only issue with masterwork tools, is people automatically adding the bonus to ALL skill rolls without ever mentioning to the GM what the tool is or how it can be used.
That's a reasonable thing to do from most playerrs ends, as the board post linked above and core rulebook would imply that that's how it works. If you don't know something is controversial you don't know to mention it.
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Venture-Captain, Isles—Online
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That's a reasonable thing to do from most playerrs ends, as the board post linked above and core rulebook would imply that that's how it works. If you don't know something is controversial you don't know to mention it.my only issue with masterwork tools, is people automatically adding the bonus to ALL skill rolls without ever mentioning to the GM what the tool is or how it can be used.
Its right there in the description that its use is situational
MASTERWORK TOOL
<snip>Some skills have no appropriate tool or masterwork tool—no nonmagical item exists that grants a bonus for all uses of that skill.
I'm fine if you declare your MW tools for stealth as "clothes in dark tones and muted colours" - you will get the bonus as long as i judge its appropriate - however if for example you're in a crystal cathedral bathed in bright light - that tool isnt going to do anything.
If you hear the monster in the castle is a vampire lord, you can use your "observer guide to foul undead" to make knowledge religion checks with the bonus BEFORE YOU GO TO THE CASTLE. But in a 6 second combat round, you're not going to be able to flick through "playghoul" to find the picture of a previously unseen undead creature to get that bonus on a knowledge check.
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Its right there in the description that its use is situational
MASTERWORK TOOL
<snip>Some skills have no appropriate tool or masterwork tool—no nonmagical item exists that grants a bonus for all uses of that skill.
Where is that description from? Ultimate equipment?
This is what i have from the core rules.
Tool, Masterwork: This well-made item is the perfect
tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a
related skill check (if any). Bonuses provided by multiple
masterwork items do not stack.
I'm fine if you declare your MW tools for stealth as "clothes in dark tones and muted colours" - you will get the bonus as long as i judge its appropriate - however if for example you're in a crystal cathedral bathed in bright light - that tool isnt going to do anything.
To be clear, as a player I am aware of the rules and table variance on how they function so i avoid ones that aren't existing sources unless i want a 99% flavor item (Like my Aspis hating druid who has a mr T esque collection of melted and half digested aspis badges for +2 to intimidate aspis agents. )
but as a DM the core rules that i can expect a player to have access to and a board post support the "pay 50 gp get your +2" and I can't really fault them for that, or just taking +2 onto the skill and forgetting about it.
If you hear the monster in the castle is a vampire lord, you can use your "observer guide to foul undead" to make knowledge religion checks with the bonus BEFORE YOU GO TO THE CASTLE. But in a 6 second combat round, you're not going to be able to flick through "playghoul" to find the picture of a previously unseen undead creature to get that bonus on a knowledge check.
There is a pathfinder chronicle item for that that's a masterwork tool for knowledge checks. Takes 1d4 rounds IIRC (apparently they were field tested and heavily indexed)
So if you have a bag of holding, buy the set, and if you don't have the knowledge skill hand them out :)
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Venture-Captain, Isles—Online
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Its right there in the description that its use is situational
MASTERWORK TOOL
<snip>Some skills have no appropriate tool or masterwork tool—no nonmagical item exists that grants a bonus for all uses of that skill.Where is that description from? Ultimate equipment?
its from the PRD (ultimate equipment)
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Bignorsewolf, while its not a bad definition of imminent danger it basically prevents ever taking 10 in society because almost every failure results in something dangerous. The never using it part is what I find incongruous with the definition.
The vast majority of skill checks will result in the loss of your second prestige point, or lacking a piece of knowledge. Neither of those is immediate danger. Aram zey berating the party isn't pleasant but it isn't dangerous.
but as a DM the core rules that i can expect a player to have access to and a board post support the "pay 50 gp get your +2" and I can't really fault them for that, or just taking +2 onto the skill and forgetting about it..
I've always operated under the assumption that players generally act with honor, and I don't demand audits of every player on every table. But if it becomes relevant and such a matter does come up, it's my discretion as a Judge when the rulings aren't neatly cut and dried in corner cases.
If it's not in the FAQ, or in Additional Resources, than it comes down to Judge's Call. That is part of the GM Empowerment clause that PFS operates under.
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my only issue with masterwork tools, is people automatically adding the bonus to ALL skill rolls without ever mentioning to the GM what the tool is or how it can be used.
This problem seems most prevalent online where people seem to routinely have a golf bag full of masterwork tools for a large number of skills.
this is one players list - and this is fairly common
Masterwork tool (Acrobatics)
Masterwork tool (Escape Artist)
Masterwork tool (Intimidate)
Masterwork tool (Knowledge [dungeoneering])
Masterwork tool (Knowledge [local])
Masterwork tool (Perception)
Masterwork tool (Sense Motive)
Masterwork tool (Sleight of Hand)
Masterwork tool (Stealth)
Masterwork tool (Use Magic Device)
A Dm using a poor player like this to ban MW tools is taking it too far int he other direction though.
Most of my characters have 1 MW tool used for a very specific part of a skill.(demoralize,teach a pet a skill, trap removal). A DM saying no to that would upset me.
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"Would my finely crafted monocle impress the nobles I'm socializing with?"
Masterwork Tool (Diplomacy, nobles and folks what put on airs of sophistication)
Haven't seen this be an issue in the situations it's come up, and it's actually into 'overkill' range, usually -- character in question is a bard who got tired of going to high society gatherings and being the *only one* that could 'face' for the party and the rest of the party being 'less than helpful'...
"Would my finely crafted monocle impress the nobles I'm socializing with?"
Masterwork Tool (Diplomacy, nobles and folks what put on airs of sophistication)
Haven't seen this be an issue in the situations it's come up, and it's actually into 'overkill' range, usually -- character in question is a bard who got tired of going to high society gatherings and being the *only one* that could 'face' for the party and the rest of the party being 'less than helpful'...
Depends on the context really. If the rest of your attire looks like either a bum out from the street, or like your murderhobo buddies, I'd rule that it doesn't help you at all. It might even hurt your case if the noble in question decides that it looks like you rolled someone for it.
Courtier outfits and the recommended accessories exist for a reason.
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Depends on the context really. If the rest of your attire looks like either a bum out from the street, or like your murderhobo buddies, I'd rule that it doesn't help you at all. It might even hurt your case if the noble in question decides that it looks like you rolled someone for it.
Courtier outfits and the recommended accessories exist for a reason.
Yet another advantage of joining the Orders. Hellknight Plate is considered a formal uniform and therefore appropriate attire in any setting.
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I do kind of love the idea that 30gp courtier outfits (even with 50gp worth of jewelry) denotes a higher status than the 10s of thousands of gold pieces worth of enchanted bling we're normally wearing.
Or as I've put it before: "Apologies for the bloodstains and horsesweat, my lord, but we're only an hour ahead of the demon horde and I didn't think bathing and clothes shopping were a valuable use of the little time we have."
Note that even by RAW courtier outfits would need to be purchased separately and locally for every formal setting - unless we assume current fashion is the same across the globe.
Darlin', I can easily see spending 30gp per event, just to stay in current fashion.
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I'm not sure about anyone *ELSE* but I dress for success and am more than willing to help out my fellow Pathfinders temporarily until they get paid by the Society for 'acquiring the proper equipment' they can 'borrow' for a high-intensity social situation.
Always go for the 'bling' upgrade if you do the courtier or the noble-person outfit.
ALWAYS!
Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Omaha
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Note that even by RAW courtier outfits would need to be purchased separately and locally for every formal setting - unless we assume current fashion is the same across the globe.
People are aware of the difference in fashions between countries. In some cases it would be more desirable to represent your home country well, rather than be so presumptuous as to try and "fit in" to the local high society.