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My fighter archer has just enough gold to upgrade his +1 Seeking Shortbow with an additional +2 enchantment or the holy weapon property.
He currently has a +21 to attack and a +16 with rapid shot and deadly aim. Total of 4 arrows over 3 attacks on a full-round attack.
This up to a +22 and +17 with 5 arrows over 4 attacks with haste on.
Damage is +9 with an additional +6 from deadly aim, for a total of +15.
Ups to +16 with point blank shot. With a +1d6 from the shortbow itself.
Which of the above 2 upgrades to his bow would you advice he goes for?
Holy all the way
Depends on the campaign. Are you playing in a campaign in which you can expect a lot of evil stuff - particularly powerful demons and/or devils? If so, holy is a good buy.
Are you in an AP or a homebrew world?
Do you find yourself missing shots more often than you are comfortable with? If yes, would and additional +2 have made a difference?
Are you mostly fighting evil enemies where the extra damage would be worthwhile or are they largely neutral (such as animals or constructs)?
Are you facing many evil outsiders such that the ability to by pass their DR is needed?
My fighter archer has just enough gold to upgrade his +1 Seeking Shortbow with an additional +2 enchantment or the holy weapon property.
He currently has a +21 to attack and a +16 with rapid shot and deadly aim. Total of 4 arrows over 3 attacks on a full-round attack.
This up to a +22 and +17 with 5 arrows over 4 attacks with haste on.Damage is +9 with an additional +6 from deadly aim, for a total of +15.
Ups to +16 with point blank shot. With a +1d6 from the shortbow itself.Which of the above 2 upgrades to his bow would you advice he goes for?
Depends on the campaign. In most campaigns Holy should apply nearly all the time though and be much better.
From experience finding extra +2 to hit n damage is easy cf the jubblies you get from holy.....so holy and then whatever buffs from elsewhere
First off, you need to consider how often you're attacking evil creatures. I know in my campaigns it's most of the time, so I consider holy to be among the best bonuses.
Once you settle that subjective question, you can get a good answer for the rest of the question using some math.
A +2 to hit is a 10% higher chance to hit (and 10% higher chance to confirm criticals), which is to say it's almost certainly a 10% DPR boost in itself.
Holy is (on average) +7 damage, but because the +2 enchantment you could have gotten would have given you +2 damage itself, you need to figure holy as only +5 damage in this case. If your average shot is less than 50 damage, the holy enchantment is a true damage bonus even considering regular +2 bonus to hit.
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Disregard the following advice if you have BBNGs instead of BBEGs, but I would go Holy. With all your Fighter bonuses to hit, you should be fine there, but you know what really ruins your day? DR/good. With a Holy bow, you'll be going right past that and dealing 2d6 extra to boot!
Besides, if most of the neutral things in the campaign are lesser threats, you don't really need that +2/+2 against them, right?
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Well When I played with a good archer he was Adding as many D6s as he could to each arrow. He was a paladin tho and could Greater magic weapon + Divine Bond his bow for the Static +s to the bow. He also Grabbed Dangerously Curious as his trait and used wands of Gravity bow. If I remember correct he was doing something like: 7d6(Holy, + Smite+ 12 an arrow and shooting like 5-6 a round with rapid shot and many shot. Though everything He was fighting was Evil and Smite-able.
The problem with Holy is if you fight enemies who are not evil the extra damage is not present on your attacks. With the +s your always doing damage to everything and your Hitting More. Not knowing your campaign I will suggest the Static +s over the Holy. If your in a Campaign like Wrath of the Righteous where everything you fight will be extremely evil then I recommend the Holy.
Now I want to know why your rocking a short bow and not a +1 Composite Adaptive, Seeking Long Bow. You need to be adding your strength modifier to each arrow as well for more damage per arrow.
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This is for a PFS character.
He just hit lv 11
PFS scenarios are a mix bag, but evil alignment enemies do pop up quite a bit.
I have taken the main array of range feats:
Weapon focus + greater weapon focus
rapid shot
manyshot
clustered shot
point blank shot
Precise Shot
deadly aim
snap shot
pointblank master
weapon specialization
at lv 11: Improved snap shot & combat reflexes
Improved Precise Shot pushed to lv 13 or 12 due to 1 lesser bab from class dip
Question now is deciding which is more important? More damage? Or a better to-hit.
PFS has quite a bit of Evil and season 5 has all those demons.
I would take Holy.
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Then I suggest a +3 seeking adaptive longbow.
You have clustered shots. You can buy special ammo or salts or weapon blanched to overcome any further DR.
Go with a higher to hit and damage every arrow. Your Damage will end up being better with reliable damage.
Going Longbow will up your damage as well.
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Alas, the longbow is not an option for me. My deity uses a shortbow and training out of it is not possible.
I do already have the seeking and adaptive weapon properties. The Impervious weapon property as well too. (Seen too many bows getting taken out thanks to a simple warp wood spell.)
Clustered shots makes DR a very minor matter. I got a whole bunch of weapon blanched arrows... that I hardly ever use now, cos there is very little need for them.
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Question now is deciding which is more important? More damage? Or a better to-hit.
Obviously hitting is more important.
But as I asked before, are you missing?
Most archers I have seen after about level 4 or 5 almost never miss anyway.
An attack roll of 17 over the number needed to hit doesn't gain you anything that a roll of 15 over the number needed to hit already gives you.
But yes, if you are missing more often that you are comfortable with, then go for the +2 (even though it is kinda boring).
If you are like most archers I've seen and rarely miss it is only a +2 to damage which is no where near +2d6 damage (even if not all the time).
Because holy is such a conditional thing, I'd go with the straight-out enhancement bonus, and purchase holy ammunition instead. That way you can save 'em for evil foes.
What he said.
Alas, the longbow is not an option for me. My deity uses a shortbow and training out of it is not possible.
So? Not even clerics are forced to use their god's favorite weapon.
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Not sure what your character is. First post you said he's a fighter.
Then you say your deity limits your weapon proficiencies.
Maybe posting what your character actually is might help.
Clustered shot would add holy to each arrow that hit right? So if the oppoent was evil that would several extra d6 correct?
This is for a PFS character.
He just hit lv 11
PFS scenarios are a mix bag, but evil alignment enemies do pop up quite a bit.
I'd go with holy in that case. A +3 weapon will allow you to ignore DR based on silver or iron but so will non-magical arrows of the right material - and those are cheap, relatively speaking. An efficient quiver is also relatively inexpensive and useful for keeping that sort of ammunition around in ready supply.
The ability to buy other special ammo is dependent on the chronicle sheets you get or your fame and how much you can afford, but you may be stuck buying your ammo in 50 arrow lots (I haven't found any treatment of that in the PFS guide). You'd probably save money by getting the holy bow and matching it with silver or iron arrows as necessary rather than going with a +3 bow and having to invest in a substantial bundle of +3 equivalent magic arrows that are just going to be shot away.
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Or you can just ignore holy all together.
You can buy blanch for arrows to push through higher DR then +3.
If your lucky you have some chronicled arrows. If not don't sweat it. You have clustered shot.
Also the extra +2 helps to regain the loss from deadly aim or rapid shot. Hitting more means more damage in general. If you miss that extra 2d6 is missing as well.
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Question now is deciding which is more important? More damage? Or a better to-hit.Obviously hitting is more important.
But as I asked before, are you missing?
Most archers I have seen after about level 4 or 5 almost never miss anyway.
An attack roll of 17 over the number needed to hit doesn't gain you anything that a roll of 15 over the number needed to hit already gives you.
But yes, if you are missing more often that you are comfortable with, then go for the +2 (even though it is kinda boring).
If you are like most archers I've seen and rarely miss it is only a +2 to damage which is no where near +2d6 damage (even if not all the time).
Well, I'm not missing much on my 3 full bab attacks (with haste), even on lower rolls. My main problem is bosses with high ac, for those I usually drop deadly aim to regain a +3 to my shots.
An average attack for me (on 10s) would be 27-28, which is fine for normal enemies. It is the bosses I'm worried about.
But I see your point. If I can hit most of the time, more damage would be better.
+1 for Holy.
Alas, the longbow is not an option for me. My deity uses a shortbow and training out of it is not possible.So? Not even clerics are forced to use their god's favorite weapon.
My character does have a level of cleric, mainly for flavor reasons. And in his case, he is using the crusader archetype. The bonus feat given by that archetype requires it to be applied to your deity's favored weapon. Hence he chooses, weapon focus (shortbow)
This is for a PFS character.
He just hit lv 11
PFS scenarios are a mix bag, but evil alignment enemies do pop up quite a bit.
I'd go with holy in that case. A +3 weapon will allow you to ignore DR based on silver or iron but so will non-magical arrows of the right material - and those are cheap, relatively speaking. An efficient quiver is also relatively inexpensive and useful for keeping that sort of ammunition around in ready supply.
The ability to buy other special ammo is dependent on the chronicle sheets you get or your fame and how much you can afford, but you may be stuck buying your ammo in 50 arrow lots (I haven't found any treatment of that in the PFS guide). You'd probably save money by getting the holy bow and matching it with silver or iron arrows as necessary rather than going with a +3 bow and having to invest in a substantial bundle of +3 equivalent magic arrows that are just going to be shot away.
I'm avoiding magical arrows, which must be bought in batches of 50.
I DO have a boon sheet that allows the purchase of magical arrows in a batch of 10 instead.
I'm thinking 10 Elemental-bane arrows for 800gp... is this even worth it tho... (I pick elemental cos they are usually the most troublesome enemies. More so then demons or devils.)
For special material arrows, you don't need to get them in 50s. You just buy them in 20s as per buying normal arrows. The best are cold iron arrows, those only cost 2gp for 20.
Weapon blanches (blanches are CHEAP!) are even better. They apply to 10 arrows at a time. Silver are the cheapest at 5gp for applying to 10 arrows. Weapon blanched (silver) Cold Iron arrows are an archer's best friend till they get clustered shots.
Not sure what your character is. First post you said he's a fighter.
Then you say your deity limits your weapon proficiencies.Maybe posting what your character actually is might help.
Clustered shot would add holy to each arrow that hit right? So if the oppoent was evil that would several extra d6 correct?
Yap. It adds to EACH arrow fired. It just don't multiply on crits.
I got 5 arrows in the air at my current level. If they all hit, it is an extra 10d6s on a evil target.
My main worry is that I have seen a fellow archer (who is playing a ranger archer) use a holy bow and his damage output varies a lot.
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Get the Holy enchantment and try to also benefit from Greater Magic Weapon. Each adventure, ask a full caster to please please pretty please cast Greater Magic Weapon on your bow. In exchange, offer to provide the caster with something sweet, like two uses of your Lesser Rod of Metamagic Extend.
A 12th level Wizard can enchant your bow to +3 and Holy, without burning a spell slot on an adventuring day. Said Wizard simply keeps one open 3rd level spell slot. Each night, if that open slot is not used (e.g. the day before the adventure begins), simply prepare Greater Magic Weapon, extended, and cast before sleeping. The extended spell will last 24 hours.
Alternately, most allied casters will probably cast Greater Magic Weapon for you in exchange for use of your 3rd level Pearl of Power. Other means of polite persuasion might be found ...
The 2nd level Cleric spell Weapon of Awe stacks with what you have. No one benefits more from that spell than an archer.
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I would go with holy.
Having another +2 damage to every hit is great but a lot of bad bosses are being written as evil (in what I have seen), even if minions or other enemies are not.
In terms of arrows counting as cold iron and silver, the easiest thing to do is to purchase a whole bunch of cold iron arrows and some weapon blanch of adamantine and of silver. Per 40 CI arrows, apply 2 blanches of silver to 1 quiver and the adamantine to the other. That way, the material DR is taken care of. And if you do eventually take cluster shot, a creature's DR gets subtracted only once from the total damage dealt by your arrows.
In my opinion, go with holy. An extra 2D6 per arrow for 5 or so arrows per round sounds better than a simple +2 when facing evil.
