It does seem odd that druids and rangers got "half your class level as a bonus" to their most iconic skills, while clerics with domains get... to treat the skill as a class skill. "Oh, good, because I was wondering what to do with my 3 skill points. I didn't want to waste them on Diplomacy, Spellcraft, Heal, Sense Motive, or Knowledge (religion)!"
Well druids and rangers are skill monkeys, and clerics and paladins are... incapable of speaking well with a clergy and knowing what their talking about without extra skill points at level one.
I really don't believe that. A GM who allows hit point retraining, but then increases the encounter challenges as a result is defeating the whole point of hit point retraining and should have just disallowed it to begin with. I prefer to believe that most GMs are smarter than that (and not a bunch of jerks misleading their players into thinking they are paying for a benefit, but actually getting nothing).
Actually, I allow Hit Point retraining for my players because I tend to throw long strings of overly challenging encounters at my players to test their mettle. But I also allow my players to roll their HP three times and take the best result, too. HP retraining isn't required in my games as a result, but if they're nervous about their health its not a bad investment.
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What I'm seeing is "hey look a prestige class that's actually worth taking!"
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What I'm seeing is "hey look a prestige class that's actually worth taking!"
That's a fair assessment. Exalted and Sentinel aren't bad either, if a bit less generally applicable.
Most builds using Evangelist aren't notably better than those without it...but on non full-BAB classes they almost all remain, at the least, very close to as good. It's not a must have, but it's also not a 'don't take this'.
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What I'm seeing is "hey look a prestige class that's actually worth taking!"That's a fair assessment. Exalted and Sentinel aren't bad either, if a bit less generally applicable.
Most builds using Evangelist aren't notably better than those without it...but on non full-BAB classes they almost all remain, at the least, very close to as good. It's not a must have, but it's also not a 'don't take this'.
I completely agree with this assessment. From a purely mechanical point of view.
But I love the flavour. I've got a witch who will definitely be taking it. The one level hit is more than compensated for by the flavour.
Which is why I think that these are amongst the best prestige classes that Paizo has created
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I completely agree with this assessment. From a purely mechanical point of view.
But I love the flavour. I've got a witch who will definitely be taking it. The one level hit is more than compensated for by the flavour.
Which is why I think that these are amongst the best prestige classes that Paizo has created
Oh, totally. It's wonderful thematically, and playing one sounds like lots of fun. But this thread's been pretty much mechanically oriented and thus so was my analysis.
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So there's now an extra two prestige classes that in the same league as base classes. I think that brings the total up to four?
I like the idea of prestige classes, but I feel like they've been the game design whipping boy of Pathfinder. I didn't like that they were the end-all-be-all in 3.5, but things have swung too far the other direction.
I'm glad to see a few prestige classes that have good abilities and prerequisites that don't amount to "light this feat on fire".
I agree that they got stomped on in the transition from 3.5 so that most aren't worthwhile. But I think there's more than just four that are worth taking; although some are pretty narrow.
Battle Herald is useful to build toward for a character solely focused on improving his party.
Champion of Irori is a useful character if built carefully.
Dawnflower Dissident is an upgrade for a non-channeling focused cleric.
Likewise, Divine Scion is good for a combat-focused cleric, assuming he has a good domain to choose for specialization.
Four or eight levels of Dragon Disciple can be useful to the right build.
Duelist is still the best way to make a single weapon fighter that can kill something.
Eldritch Knight still has many uses that Magi don't or can't fill.
Four levels of Envoy of Balance + the eight level Death Domain power makes for a very interesting channeler cleric.
Gray Gardener gives sneak attack and inquisitor abilities to a ranger.
Three levels of Hellknight Signifier helps an Eldritch Knight.
Horizon Walker is abusable as hell.
Lantern Bearer is actually quite good for campaigns that will be heavy on evil outsiders.
Mammoth Rider is a great way to get a Sohei archer to BAB 16 at 20 to maximize their number of attacks.
Most of the others have potential uses, it's just that between losing the save boost (which I think was a great change) and requiring the player to give up their FCB (which I'm less fond of), they're mostly slightly underpowered compared to sticking with a single base class. (Which is what the designers were aiming for I suppose; I just find it boring compared to multiclass characters.)
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After thinking about it for a while: no, I think the Evangelist is decently balanced. You gain some nice toys, mainly skills; but lose some steam on your main class progression. I think it's a fair trade.
It's enough that I would consider taking the PrC, not so powerful that I consider the PrC mandatory now.
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As for the Obedience: it might come up more often than losing a spellbook or witch's familiar, but the effects are more temporary. I'm not wild about it; I think PF improved because the 8 hours of sleep to refresh spells no longer need to be consecutive, meaning attacks at night no longer cripple a party (though they're still inconvenient enough to work).
If one of the PCs is 8 levels lighter on a day, he (and maybe the entire party) really can't adventure that day. If a PC missed a spell preparation slot, he just has to work with whatever he's got left from the day before. When I play a spellcaster I always try to hold something back in case there's another encounter during the same day, so that would be annoying but still doable. Also, laying low for a day with only 15% prepared spells is still better than doing it with only half you levels, saving throws, BAB etc.
I think the Obedience clause is pretty awkward; you need to maintain a "just in case" character sheet detailing what's left if you miss an obedience, and it raises a lot of questions about prerequisite chains.
In the days of yore, level drain removed entire levels immediately. This was considered very punishing, but it was also hugely inconvenient because you needed to do character sheet rewrites in the middle of combat. PF's temporary negative levels do a much better job of keeping things moving. I think the Obedience clause is a step back in the wrong direction.
I think imposing a number of unremovable negative levels equal to your PrC level would have been a much smoother way of punishing a missed Obedience; still quite annoying but much more efficient.
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I dont see why obeiance is a problem? It is done approximately once every 24 hours and takes approximately an hour.
Sounds like
Divine caster prayers
Arcane caster studying
You guys are just overblowing it.
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I dont see why obeiance is a problem? It is done approximately once every 24 hours and takes approximately an hour.
Sounds like
Divine caster prayers
Arcane caster studyingYou guys are just overblowing it.
Yeah, but those can be done basically silently and basically anywhere. The same is not true of Obediences, and most casters don't need specific stuff to prepare spells, while Obediences require very specific items.
There's a reason spellbooks keep being brought up as an equivalent, even if I think it's a bad comparison, and it has to do with people who need them needing very specific stuff to prepare spells and that being a problem for them at least sometimes.
I dont see why obeiance is a problem? It is done approximately once every 24 hours and takes approximately an hour.
Sounds like
Divine caster prayers
Arcane caster studyingYou guys are just overblowing it.
Obediences are actually part of that hour of prep. If you interrupt it, you also interrupt the wizard getting spells, alchemist making his mutagen/extracts, witch in commune, etc. Likely if you interrupt it the rest of the group will want to go right back to it to get all their nice stuff. A lot of classes are hurt by that, and the ones that aren't are likely they want their friends to. I think a lot of people are putting more into the obedience than is there. Its of course bad balance if its any balance, because all or nothing tends to be.
An obedience is typically an hour-long ritual that must be performed daily; unless otherwise stated, it does not harm the creature performing it. Spellcasting demon cultists can integrate their obedience completely with their normal hour-long rituals and methods of preparing or regaining spells—others are free to perform their obedience at any point during the day. Most choose twilight as the time of obedience.
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As for the Obedience: it might come up more often than losing a spellbook or witch's familiar, but the effects are more temporary. I'm not wild about it; I think PF improved because the 8 hours of sleep to refresh spells no longer need to be consecutive, meaning attacks at night no longer cripple a party (though they're still inconvenient enough to work).
If one of the PCs is 8 levels lighter on a day, he (and maybe the entire party) really can't adventure that day. If a PC missed a spell preparation slot, he just has to work with whatever he's got left from the day before. When I play a spellcaster I always try to hold something back in case there's another encounter during the same day, so that would be annoying but still doable. Also, laying low for a day with only 15% prepared spells is still better than doing it with only half you levels, saving throws, BAB etc.
I think the Obedience clause is pretty awkward; you need to maintain a "just in case" character sheet detailing what's left if you miss an obedience, and it raises a lot of questions about prerequisite chains.
In the days of yore, level drain removed entire levels immediately. This was considered very punishing, but it was also hugely inconvenient because you needed to do character sheet rewrites in the middle of combat. PF's temporary negative levels do a much better job of keeping things moving. I think the Obedience clause is a step back in the wrong direction.
I think imposing a number of unremovable negative levels equal to your PrC level would have been a much smoother way of punishing a missed Obedience; still quite annoying but much more efficient.
The hit point, BAB, saves and skill stay, you loose the class features-
Essentially you are in a situation very similar to that of a paladin that has broken his code of conduct, an ex-cleric or a druid that has used a metal shield, but only for the Exalted class levels.|
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I dont see why obeiance is a problem? It is done approximately once every 24 hours and takes approximately an hour.
Sounds like
Divine caster prayers
Arcane caster studyingYou guys are just overblowing it.
Obediences are actually part of that hour of prep. If you interrupt it, you also interrupt the wizard getting spells, alchemist making his mutagen/extracts, witch in commune, etc. Likely if you interrupt it the rest of the group will want to go right back to it to get all their nice stuff. A lot of classes are hurt by that, and the ones that aren't are likely they want their friends to. I think a lot of people are putting more into the obedience than is there. Its of course bad balance if its any balance, because all or nothing tends to be.
An obedience is typically an hour-long ritual that must be performed daily; unless otherwise stated, it does not harm the creature performing it. Spellcasting demon cultists can integrate their obedience completely with their normal hour-long rituals and methods of preparing or regaining spells—others are free to perform their obedience at any point during the day. Most choose twilight as the time of obedience.
That piece of text isn't present in the Deific Obedience.
Deific Obedience
Your reverence for a deity is so great that daily prayer and minor sacrifices grant you special boons.
Prerequisite(s): Knowledge (religion) 3 ranks, must worship a deity.
Benefit(s): Each deity requires a different daily obedience, but all obediences take no more than 1 hour per day to perform. Once you've performed the obedience, you gain the benefit of a special ability or resistance as indicated in the "Obedience" entry for the god to whom you performed the obedience.
If you have at least 12 Hit Dice, you also gain the first boon granted by your deity upon undertaking your obedience. If you have at least 16 Hit Dice, you also gain the deity's second boon. If you have 20 Hit Dice or more, you also gain the deity's third boon. Unless a specific duration or number of uses per day is listed, a boon's effects are constant.
Certain prestige classes gain access to these boons at lower levels as a benefit of their prestige class. If you have no levels in one of these prestige classes, you gain the boons marked as exalted boons. If you later take levels in sentinel or evangelist, you lose access to the exalted boons and gain access to the new boons appropriate to your class. If you ever fail to perform a daily obedience, you lose all access to the benefits and boons granted by this feat until you next perform the obedience.
One of my players totally blew my mind tonight when they called me to bring this to my attention.
[LINK]How is this class ability not totally broken!? Even if you discount that it may let you progress a prestige class, it is still literally better than going straight classed nearly every time!
What on earth was the writer thinking? Choosing ONE class ability of a prior class would have been pretty powerful, but getting ALL of them!? Talk about power creep!
Discuss.
Who is going to Multiclass into this? Not everyone.
Full BAB classes dont want to lose the BAB. They have the Sentinel.
Full casters dont like losing a spell casting level. Granted I this is probably the route I would take. The PrC still has crappy saves. But a wizard would gain increased hp and BAB, a cleric would gain alot of skills and some flexibility.
3/4 Casters & 3/4 BAB classes: This is your most likely applicant. You still have to deal with the crappy saves and if your not using an SLA to gain entry (PFS doesnt allow this, Home games your GM can rule that way to keep power in check) then your still going to wait until level 9 to get in OR giving up the 1 BAB.
Dont get me wrong, I think its a really really powerful PrC. I just dont think that everyone is going to be doing it. Oh, there is also the thing about having to worship a God. Due to RP reasons some people might shy away.
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I suppose it might also be good for witches, since it doesn't totally sabotage your hex progression like most prestige classes (MT etc.) do. Same story for oracles and mystery/curse.
@Diego: in Chronicle of the Righteous, the text about integrating the Celestial Obedience into spell preparation is in a block of text preceding the actual feat. Is that also the case for the Deific Obedience?
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@Diego: in Chronicle of the Righteous, the text about integrating the Celestial Obedience into spell preparation is in a block of text preceding the actual feat. Is that also the case for the Deific Obedience?
No (I checked my physical copy). The book is a hardbound and follow the normal hardbound structure, with a feat chapter, so there is no additional text before a feat with further explanations on it, while demonic obedience is in the chapter about demons and their worship in Lords of chaos. An equivalent location for that note would be at the start of the chapter about the deities. I checked that part of the book to, it say nothing about doing your obedience and preparing your spells at the same time.
As a houserule I could allow that for divine casters, but I have a hard time seeing my magus, a follower of Desna, memorize his spell while dancing under the stars and then meditating on where his step brought him.
BTW, if he wasn't a blackblade I would be very interested in taking this prestige class. It is in character, it will give a lot of interesting abilities at the cost of some good but less flavourful ability.
On the other hand so far in this campaign I was unable to memorize my spell in 3 different situations, generally for lack of sleep, but at least once he hadn't the hour to spare as we were pushing forward under a time pressure. Being unable to refresh my spell and losing access to my class features beyond the level in which I entered in the PRC would have been a hard blow.
The prestige classes in Weapons of Legacy for 3.5 had a prestige class with a similar structure. No big deal.
On the other hand so far in this campaign I was unable to memorize my spell in 3 different situations, generally for lack of sleep, but at least once he hadn't the hour to spare as we were pushing forward under a time pressure.
The prestige classes in Weapons of Legacy for 3.5 had a prestige class with a similar structure. No big deal.
Wasn't that book badly received?
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On the other hand so far in this campaign I was unable to memorize my spell in 3 different situations, generally for lack of sleep, but at least once he hadn't the hour to spare as we were pushing forward under a time pressure.
Any vigorous activity, including fighting, immediately ends the effect, and the affected creatures must either have the spell cast on them again or sleep for the remaining hours to avoid fatigue and gain the benefits of a full night's rest.
Riding till 2 a.m. seem to fall in the vigorous activity. Same thing for fighting. Only the night I did spend reading a book for clues on our current situation would have been appropriate.
Regularly memorizing that spell to get my full complement of spell once in 9 levels don't seem a good trade off.@Diego: that's odd - inconsistent with the two other obedience feats. Maybe it's an oversight/FAQ candidate?
It is possible, or it could be a conscious decision. The other books were softbound with a limited impact on how most people play (actually, if we judge from these board, a lot of people use the rules in them, but that is more an effect of the forum than the reflection of how most people play, I think), this book is a hardcover that will certainly have some serious impact on people play stile. So it is a possible that the development staff has decided to make the requirements more stringent.
There are the basis to argue that the new feat replace the older obediences.
Regularly memorizing that spell to get my full complement of spell once in 9 levels don't seem a good trade off.
I don't prepare it, I use it if I have a dip or I UMD it.
It was meant to be a joke and a suggestion before I asked the more legit question. I actually don't have a copy of weapons of legacy. Looking up weapons of legacy it looks like it didn't actually resemble the evangelist much.
On the other hand so far in this campaign I was unable to memorize my spell in 3 different situations, generally for lack of sleep, but at least once he hadn't the hour to spare as we were pushing forward under a time pressure.The prestige classes in Weapons of Legacy for 3.5 had a prestige class with a similar structure. No big deal.Wasn't that book badly received?
Yes, but not because people were clamoring to play Legacy Champions.
I actually don't have a copy of weapons of legacy. Looking up weapons of legacy it looks like it didn't actually resemble the evangelist much.
Every level except 1 and 7 Legacy Champion gets "class features." It is medium BAB, d8 hit die, one good Will save, 4 skill points.
Honestly, I have a problem with the evangelist, but i think one more level where it lost class features would bring it up to par. The Single loss just makes it too good for a Ton of classes.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Consequently, a friend is starting a new game this Thursday, and I'm going to play a Razmiran Priest Sorcerer who will eventually go into the Razmiran Priest Prestige class for one level and then go Evangelist right away, netting the abilities of both Prestige classes in 11 total levels. It'll be pretty sick. :)Does Razmir even have Obediences/boons? It seems super odd to be able to take a religious prestige class that grants divine abilities when you are worshipping a false god. Not sure I'd allow that combo but if your GM is fine with it have fun.
Razmir does not have actual Obediences/Boons, but we're playing in the Thunderscape campaign setting, where there are no actual gods. My character has been magically transported from Golarion accidentally, and in this world, it doesn't matter WHO you worship as long as you worship SOMETHING, so worship of Razmir actually gives you divine power. He's going to be a true evangelist, spreading the word about Razmir the one true god, the only living god, etc.
Here are the obediences/boons we came up with for a Razmiran Evangelist:
Obedience: You must spend at least one hour per day preaching to a group of intelligent creatures about Razmir's faith, and then collect a minimum of your character level squared in gold as a tithe from these creatures. If you cannot preach to a group, you must set aside twice that amount as a personal tithe. In either case, this tithe must be spent to further Razmir's presence in the world, such as building shrines or temples devoted to him, or converting others to the faith.
Boon 1: Razmir's Blessing (Sp): charm person 3/day, false life 2/day, or magic circle against chaos 1/day
Boon 2: Mage's Servant (Su): You gain a familiar as the wizard's familiar class feature, adding the Resolute template to the creature as if you possessed the Improved Familiar feat. Treat your your effective caster level for the familiar's abilities as your hit dice -3. You may not take the Improved Familiar feat to alter this familiar further.
Boon 3: Theurgic spells (Su): You can use your arcane spell slots to empower divine spells cast from spell trigger or spell completion items. By expending an arcane spell slot as a swift action, you may cast a divine spell from a wand, scroll, or staff as if the spell was using one of your own spell slots. The spell now uses your Intelligence or Charisma (whichever is higher) modifier and caster level to determine effects and save DCs. You must sacrifice a spell slot one level higher than the actual level of the spell cast.
My favorite part of this is that I'm playing him as Lawful Good... he was brought up in the church and brainwashed to believe that Razmir is a good and just deity, and I might even take a level of Paladin later on. Of course, if he ever makes it back to Golarion, he'll realize that the divine gifts have disappeared and he'll have to either give up on them or switch to another deity. Perhaps he could become a crusader against the false god in that case?
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I'm going to be playing a Evangelist in two different games coming up, mostly because it fits thematically, partially because I want to play with that PrC;
In our Wrath of the Righteous game I'm a Wizard who was raised in the Church of Iomadae.
In the Mummy's Mask game we just started I'm a Separatist Cleric of Pharasma, originally planned to go Evangelist, but am strongly debating it, but I'll get to why in a minute.
In Wrath it's a) part of a decision made by the party (3/5 of us are faithful of Iomadae). From an RP standpoint it's a really good option to find a way to integrate my faith into my wizard stuff, going with the theme of my character. Mechanically? I get some good skills, deities weapon proficiency for free, and still get good spell progression (I'm willing to take a hit) and Iomadae's Obedience is honestly very easy to do, I'm willing to take an extra hour each morning to do my prayer stuff on top of my spell prep. Furthermore, as a Conjurer, and the Mythic School path ability, I don't lose out on my capstone (I actually get it at 17th level, a level before I get 9th level spells.)
In Mummy's Mask, however, it's a harder choice. I really like the flavor the class gives, and the mechanical benefits (progression not only for spells, but channel and domains) are totally worth it. The only thing holding me back is Pharasma's Obedience, which is honestly very difficult to manage, at least for a while. I have some plans to make it work but it will take higher levels to make it dependable.
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Iomedae's Evangelist boons are actually pretty nice for a wizard too. Especially if you're going to fighting demons all the time.
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I won't speak for the writer, but frankly, losing even one caster level is a big deal, especially if you're already a sorcerer or oracle.
And depending on your game, performing your daily obedience might not exactly be automatic (not that this seems to be too much of a problem with the non-Evil deities.)
I thought that Evangelist let you continue to gain spell levels if your aligned class grants them, as that's a class feature, technically?
I'm confused. Because if Evangelist DOESN'T advance spell levels that way, then casters have no reason to take the class at all, as there's no sidebar detailing spellcasting advancement.
The first level of Evangelist doesn't count for Aligned Class Zousha.
@Ross - I don't get that impression from using "Discuss" to end the post. There is no invitation to get riled up whatsoever, nor fight with each other.Maybe it's a holdover from my moderating days, but I tend to read posts (especially controversial posts) that end with "Discuss." as meaning something like "Dance, monkeys, dance!." It implies that the OP is more interested in watching other people discuss between themselves than participate him/herself. It's the kind of language that, at best, is used by textbooks and bad philosophy instructors, from a position of authority.
Frankly, on a forum, the implication that you're starting a discussion really should go without saying. Or at the very least something like "What do you think?" tends to indicate more of a willingness to participate personally and invite a dialogue.
I always think of Linda Richmond. :-)
I won't speak for the writer, but frankly, losing even one caster level is a big deal, especially if you're already a sorcerer or oracle.
And depending on your game, performing your daily obedience might not exactly be automatic (not that this seems to be too much of a problem with the non-Evil deities.)I thought that Evangelist let you continue to gain spell levels if your aligned class grants them, as that's a class feature, technically?
I'm confused. Because if Evangelist DOESN'T advance spell levels that way, then casters have no reason to take the class at all, as there's no sidebar detailing spellcasting advancement.
Aligned Class does advance spells. But you don't get Aligned Class until the second level of Evangelist, so you lose one level of casting.
A Wiz10/Evangelist 5 casts spells as a 14th level wizard (assuming you got your obedience for the day). A single-class wizard would be a 15th level caster, with 8th level spells. It's worse for sorcerers, because you're already a level behind a wizard.I'm not saying that 7th level spells aren't perfectly useful at level 15: I'm saying it's really easy to be jealous of the guy who has 8th level spells instead.
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I'm not saying that 7th level spells aren't perfectly useful at level 15: I'm saying it's really easy to be jealous of the guy who has 8th level spells instead.
That feeling should not be underestimated. Playing a sorcerer, oracle or arcanist in a party with a cleric or a wizard means you'll probably have spell envy every other level.
It's less noticeable in the higher levels, but the first level can be rough.
One should neither overestimate nor underestimate the cost of losing one or two casting levels.
I've just noticed that some of the deities Sentinel alternate boons are perhaps poorly considered. Cayden and Iomedae both give Sacred bonuses to hit if you don't have the class feature (Weapon Training for Cayden, Smite Evil for Iomedae). Which will do nothing for 99% of their Sentinels, since they're already getting a Sacred bonus to attack and damage from symbolic weapon.
To my knowledge, no prestige class grants you favored class bonuses.
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We discussed some of the ramifications in an earlier thread.
That link is to my own thoughts on the Asmodeus path (see my society and avatar) but the whole thread has good analysis.
To my knowledge, no prestige class grants you favored class bonuses.
Actually, there is one I know of. Red Mantis Assassin counts as favored class levels IF you are using the faction rules. Inner Sea Magic has the Crimson Citadel for the Red Mantis Assassins, and "Assassin Prodigy" costs 1PP.