HangarFlying
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I don't have a lot of experience with grappling and the swallow whole ability. For the sake of argument, let's assume an eidolon has the grab (bite), grab (claws), and swallow whole evolutions.
R1: Eidolon makes a full attack, attacking three separate targets with the claws and bites. The bite attack hits, the eidolon successfully attempts to grapple the target. Both the target and the Eidolon have the grappled condition.
Target fails to escape from the grapple.
R2: Eidolon wants to swallow the target.
Question 1: Is this swallow whole attempt a standard action or may it be made as part of a full attack action, thus allowing it to make additional claw attacks?
Question 2: If the Eidolon fails on the attempt to swallow the target, does it mean that it also failed to maintain the grapple (the target is no longer grappled), or that it just failed to swallow the target (the target remains grappled)?
Thanks.
Mystic_Snowfang
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"If a creature with this special attack begins its turn with an opponent grappled in its mouth (see Grab), it can attempt a new combat maneuver check (as though attempting to pin the opponent). If it succeeds, it swallows its prey, and the opponent takes bite damage. Unless otherwise noted, the opponent can be up to one size category smaller than the swallowing creature. Being swallowed causes a creature to take damage each round. The amount and type of damage varies and is given in the creature's statistics. A swallowed creature keeps the grappled condition, while the creature that did the swallowing does not. A swallowed creature can try to cut its way free with any light slashing or piercing weapon (the amount of cutting damage required to get free is equal to 1/10 the creature's total hit points), or it can just try to escape the grapple. The Armor Class of the interior of a creature that swallows whole is normally 10 + 1/2 its natural armor bonus, with no modifiers for size or Dexterity. If a swallowed creature cuts its way out, the swallowing creature cannot use swallow whole again until the damage is healed. If the swallowed creature escapes the grapple, success puts it back in the attacker's mouth, where it may be bitten or swallowed again."
| MurphysParadox |
1) Swallow Whole is a new combat maneuver check similar to attempting to pin the target. You cannot make it as an attack action or during a full attack.
2) Not clear... Normally, if you grappled someone last round, you have to make a standard action to maintain the grapple this round. If you succeed, you can move, pin, or damage the target. However, this is a standard action to maintain the grapple and doesn't necessarily have to happen at the start of the turn.
Swallow Whole doesn't make any specific claims on when or what kind of action is required. It simply needs to have the monster holding something grappled with its mouth at the start of the turn. If this is true, you can take a new combat maneuver check to swallow it.
Since it specifically states "as though attempting to pin the opponent", I'd assume this new combat maneuver check is the maintenance check and failure means you spit the target out. It would also mean the check is a standard action.
This seems the most reasonable interpretation as well, since the general rule of thumb seems to be that activities which don't specify the type of action they require default to standard action. It seems the best way to read this whole thing is that you have a fourth option after maintaining the grapple in this case - swallow whole.
| fretgod99 |
1. Swallow Whole works like trying to pin, as mentioned. Make another grapple check to maintain (with a +5 bonus because the target failed to break the grapple) and perform one of the allowed actions, which includes pinning the opponent (or, in this case, swallowing). Damage happens automatically when the creature is swallowed.
Like any other check to maintain a grapple, this requires a standard action to accomplish. Note that with Greater Grapple, this could be done as a move action.
2. If you fail to maintain the grapple (and therefore fail to swallow the opponent), the grapple ends. If you succeed at maintaining the grapple, the swallow happens automatically (so you don't have to make two checks to swallow when you start the round with an opponent grappled in your mouth - one to maintain and one to swallow - it's just the one to maintain and swallow, which is what you do as a result of maintaining the grapple).
Note that the opponent still can attempt an escape artist or grapple check, even after having been swallowed. If this check succeeds, the opponent still is grappled in the mouth of the attacker.
| Archaeik |
An eidolon cannot have Grab on more than 1 type of attack.
HangarFlying
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1. Swallow Whole works like trying to pin, as mentioned. Make another grapple check to maintain (with a +5 bonus because the target failed to break the grapple) and perform one of the allowed actions, which includes pinning the opponent (or, in this case, swallowing). Damage happens automatically when the creature is swallowed.
Like any other check to maintain a grapple, this requires a standard action to accomplish. Note that with Greater Grapple, this could be done as a move action.
2. If you fail to maintain the grapple (and therefore fail to swallow the opponent), the grapple ends. If you succeed at maintaining the grapple, the swallow happens automatically (so you don't have to make two checks to swallow when you start the round with an opponent grappled in your mouth - one to maintain and one to swallow - it's just the one to maintain and swallow, which is what you do as a result of maintaining the grapple).
Note that the opponent still can attempt an escape artist or grapple check, even after having been swallowed. If this check succeeds, the opponent still is grappled in the mouth of the attacker.
Sounds legit. Good enough for me.
| reyyvin |
1. Swallow Whole works like trying to pin, as mentioned. Make another grapple check to maintain (with a +5 bonus because the target failed to break the grapple) and perform one of the allowed actions, which includes pinning the opponent (or, in this case, swallowing). Damage happens automatically when the creature is swallowed.
Like any other check to maintain a grapple, this requires a standard action to accomplish. Note that with Greater Grapple, this could be done as a move action.
2. If you fail to maintain the grapple (and therefore fail to swallow the opponent), the grapple ends. If you succeed at maintaining the grapple, the swallow happens automatically (so you don't have to make two checks to swallow when you start the round with an opponent grappled in your mouth - one to maintain and one to swallow - it's just the one to maintain and swallow, which is what you do as a result of maintaining the grapple).
Note that the opponent still can attempt an escape artist or grapple check, even after having been swallowed. If this check succeeds, the opponent still is grappled in the mouth of the attacker.
^^ This. Swallow whole is basically another option you get to try if already grappling.
2) If the Eidolon doesn't have Greater Grapple (or another way to get standard actions), the grapple ends. If the Eidolon has Greater Grapple and fails to swallow twice (standard and move), and no other way to try again, the grapple ends.
What Archaeik said is also true; the Eidolon can only take the evolution once. They may instead want to take the Rake Evolution, which gives them more attacks while grappling (and pouncing).
Rake: "In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two free claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe....A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn." Here's the rub: nowhere does it say you have to make the standard action to maintain the grapple before before making these free attacks. So... 2 free claw attacks (at -2 hit and -4 dex, if applicable), release the grapple as a free action, then do a full attack (and grab again).
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules #TOC-Rake-Ex-
| Rikkan |
The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself.
Does that mean you have to take the -20 penalty to grapple it in your mouth before you can swallow whole?
A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).
Is that automatic damage in addition to the options you get while maintaining (so you could do damage twice) or does that replace those options (so you can't choose to pin)?
| Archaeik |
grab wrote:The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself.Does that mean you have to take the -20 penalty to grapple it in your mouth before you can swallow whole?
No, the option to Hold is in addition to anything you can do normally.
All "holding" does is prevent you from gaining the Grappled condition yourself.Quote:A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).Is that automatic damage in addition to the options you get while maintaining (so you could do damage twice) or does that replace those options (so you can't choose to pin)?
The part you bolded is conditional.
If the creature does not constrict,This also means the damage it's talking about is conditional on the creature also having the Constrict Special Attack in addition to Grab
If you choose to not Constrict during a Hold, you automatically deal your natural weapon damage instead of the listed Constrict damage.
You MUST pick one of these damage methods during a Hold, IF you have Constrict.
edit:
Normal: You may choose to not Constrict during a grapple, dealing no extra damage
A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, when it makes a successful grapple check (in addition to any other effects caused by a successful check, including additional damage). The amount of damage is given in the creature's entry and is typically equal to the amount of damage caused by the creature's melee attack.