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-I'm aware of the obvious flame-bait, troll-ish, nature of my post, but give me a moment. I'm not including the obvious Bad DM who lacks experience, or who has social skills of a lama, or simply new to being the DM. I would certainly believe that almost all of us were Very Bad DM's the first few times we gamed.
-Secondly, I'm not saying I'm a good DM or a great DM, but I'm damn sure, from observations and the mouth of others (that I wasn't invested with emotionally or otherwise) that I'm not a bad DM
-So what am I talking about? I'm talking about Bad DMs. Bad DMs are people who
1)Have super DNPC save the day, and they are usually Mary Sue-Gary Stu
2)Who play favorites who party members, Holy Avenger for you, leather armor that is cursed for YOU!
3) Railroad to hell (spells with no saves, prisons with no keys, diseases with no cure)
-I'm going to go out on an extreme and suggest that these people aren't actually bad DM's, but rather they are, actually bad people. They are bullies, they are willfully ignorant, and they have no interest in being better, either as a DM or as human beings.
-Even more extreme I would argue this DM's are in fact playing the game for the sole reason to stroke their fragile ego, engage in dominating anti-social, and otherwise be "kick sand in people's faces".
-My solution is simple, to anybody who is playing with such a DM, No the problem isn't you. You are in an abusive relationship. Get out now, don't let the door hit you on the way out, just EXIT! Life is far too short to think that these excuses of human beings are the hobby. They aren't, they are disgusting human beings, and we'd be better off if they were not present at game stores at all. Unfortunately, they have money, often too much money, and so are valuable clients of any company.
-Now my question is simple, do I go to far? Are Bad DM's simply incompetent, or is there a level of malevolence as I suggest? What do you think？
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No. Are optimizers who build powerful characters that steal the spot light constantly bad people? No. They're bad players, but that doesn't make them bad people. Same with GMs. A bad GM is a bad GM. Nothing more.
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Of course they are! Anyone who can't perform every single role offered to them during their lifetime to absolute perfection is an example of flawed humanity, and should remove themselves from the gene pool out of shame!
(That is, even with all the disclaimers, your post is still flame bait, Harbin.)
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I agree to an extent.
I don't think every bad DM is bad for the same reasons. However, there are some who are bad because of the reasons in the OP: they are bullies who use the medium of RPGs to bully, stroke their own ego at the expense of the players, and want total control of the story to facilitate this so ignore rules on a whim/kill or injure by fiat, etc.
This really isn't a 'DM vs. player' topic; there are evil players too. : )
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Here's my gallon of gasoline -
As far as I know there isn't a certified GM course that one thakes to become an "accredited or certified" GM. Like most hobbies it's learn as you go.
I GM a lot, some people like my style, some don't. As a PFS GM, I like some the vast majority of my player's, even the one's that get on my nerves. However, there are a few that I don't.
Every GM has his/her own personal style. If I run a game in a style that doesn't agree with your play-style feel free to move on, no hard feelings either way.
Or, have a reasonable discussion with the GM. I had a kid ask me why I tended to target his character more often than others even though he was hanging in the back of the group. My answer was, your a wizard and keep blasting everything, my critters have deemed you a high-value target.
So in short, don't take things personally and just relax a bit.
Socially inept (I'll refrain from using the word "bad" here, because of reasons) people are often hard to deal with in roleplaying games, because the games are situations that require constant social interaction over a prolonged period. This is compounded if said person is running the game, because then they're in charge and you have to deal with them directly for the entire time.
That said, the best way for people to become more socially acclimated is to socialize. They have the possibility for improvement. Same thing with being a GM. Practice helps. Those that fail to improve may notice that they can't find people to play with after a while.
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Based on the topic title as given, I would have to disagree -- it is quite possible for a very nice person to be completely incompetent as a DM.
Of the things cited in the first post, only the blatant favoritism is necessarily a sign of a moral problem in the DM. Railroading and powerful DMPCs could be an effect of ignorance -- maybe he learned how to DM from a bad BM and does not know any better. It does not help that there are many published adventures that seem to focus on keeping the players literally "on track".
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Based on the topic title as given, I would have to disagree -- it is quite possible for a very nice person to be completely incompetent as a DM.
Of the things cited in the first post, only the blatant favoritism is necessarily a sign of a moral problem in the DM. Railroading and powerful DMPCs could be an effect of ignorance -- maybe he learned how to DM from a bad BM and does not know any better. It does not help that there are many published adventures that seem to focus on keeping the players literally "on track".
Am I bad person for reading BM as Bowel Movement?
Of course I am.
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This kind of stuff isn't normative. Different people like different things. I like railroad campaigns, for example - one of the things you listed as indicating a bad DM. So yes, you're going to far. You're making the mistake of thinking that the way you like to play is correct (or "good") and that people who like playing differently than you are playing "badly". It gets worse to them start declaring why they're doing it wrong (bully, abusive, ego stroking, etcetera) and conclude that we're bad people for not sharing your preferences.
Honestly, what's the point? You play your way, I'll play mine. If we're not at the same table, who cares? I'm happy with a railroading DM (to pick the most egregious example, IMO) how can you declare that I'm suffering or that the guys I like playing with are egotistical, abusive bullies?
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Are bad alligator wrestlers bad people :(
This kind of stuff isn't normative. Different people like different things. I like railroad campaigns, for example - one of the things you listed as indicating a bad DM. So yes, you're going to far. You're making the mistake of thinking that the way you like to play is correct (or "good") and that people who like playing differently than you are playing "badly". It gets worse to them start declaring why they're doing it wrong (bully, abusive, ego stroking, etcetera) and conclude that we're bad people for not sharing your preferences.
Honestly, what's the point? You play your way, I'll play mine. If we're not at the same table, who cares? I'm happy with a railroading DM (to pick the most egregious example, IMO) how can you declare that I'm suffering or that the guys I like playing with are egotistical, abusive bullies?
The key is to rail road them whilst making it look like it's all their idea.
I do all sorts of bad stuff though, like I steal bikes, I butt in line at the store, I water my lawn on even days (with the neighbor's hose), and at night I drive around in a pickup looking for people on vacation so I can swipe all the copper wire from their houses.
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GM that runs a disappointing game - Not a bad person
GM that knowingly and callously tapdances all over the triggers of others - Well....
People who run disappointing games....I usually egg their houses and pour coca cola on the hood of their car.
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I don't know, but I'm a terrible person.
Everybody is. They just act all good to make themselves look better.
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I don't know, but I'm a terrible person.
but you are a good GM
waitare you luring us into a nightmarish trap
please please please do not put Orthos and CH and Scint and Treppa and I like in a hole and tell us to put the lotion on our skin or we get the hose again :(
To the OP: no.
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Jeez man, "As beautiful and terrible as the dawn," was what I thought, but if you want go straight to Buffalo Bill, that's your business, I guess. :P
-I admit the thread has rather out-there nature, but I've noticed most of the responses have ignored my two caveats, namely that
Inexperience
Incompetence
are valid reasons for being a bad DM without being evil.
-Secondly, when I say railroad to hell, I refer to the "rocks fall everybody dies" school of railroading, or the "Your sword fails to hurt the dragon because it is so powerful and a key plot point." I refer to railroading over the characters actions "no you don't get to roll sense motive on the vampire lord"...railroading that break the characters role as the stars of the show
-Another poster asked what's my point...well I put it here, over the years several players have told me...this is a paraphrase
It's nice to play in a game with an actual story, instead of a game where the DM rewards his friends, punishes people, and behaves like a capricious child. Now remember I've heard this several times, and secondly, these are all people in their 20's.
-In addition when I ask people who've played table top RPGs but didn't like their experience, they almost always share examples of power-tripping capricious DMs.
-In conclusion, I'm arguing that bad DM's are bad because of their own personality issues, and not their 'techniques'. In other words, they are not bad DM's by incompetence, but rather choose (perhaps subconcisouly) to DM to get back at society.
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Your point HAS been answered, though.
Neither incompetence nor inexperience are the only sources of bad GMing.
If you're asking, "are bad GMs that are bad GMS because they're bad people, bad people?" than the answer is "yes" along with, "tautological, much?"
If, on the other hand, you're asking, "can good, competent people make terrible gaming choices as a GM?" the answer is also, "yes."
To your actual phrasing, there is nothing within the bad behavior listed that automatically makes a person either incompetent or inexperienced, or bad (morally speaking). Instead that makes them a bad GM, regardless of their relative competence.
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"Your sword fails to hurt the dragon because it is so powerful and a key plot point."
The earlier editions of D&D had monsters that were only hurt by certain weapons, such as a werewolf which was only affected by silver weapons, there was no "DR Silver/10"; you either had a silver weapon, or you ran...
These same editions also had spells, traps, and other nasty things that could kill a character with no save. I realize that these kind of mechanics are unpopular among gamers today, but I personally think the gaming experience has suffered from their absence, but then I am unashamed of being a "You kids get off my lawn" grognard.
Yeah yeah yeah, YMMV and all of that... ;-P
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-I'm aware of the obvious flame-bait, troll-ish, nature of my post, but give me a moment. I'm not including the obvious Bad DM who lacks experience, or who has social skills of a lama, or simply new to being the DM. I would certainly believe that almost all of us were Very Bad DM's the first few times we gamed.
-Secondly, I'm not saying I'm a good DM or a great DM, but I'm damn sure, from observations and the mouth of others (that I wasn't invested with emotionally or otherwise) that I'm not a bad DM
-So what am I talking about? I'm talking about Bad DMs. Bad DMs are people who
1)Have super DNPC save the day, and they are usually Mary Sue-Gary Stu
2)Who play favorites who party members, Holy Avenger for you, leather armor that is cursed for YOU!
3) Railroad to hell (spells with no saves, prisons with no keys, diseases with no cure)
-I'm going to go out on an extreme and suggest that these people aren't actually bad DM's, but rather they are, actually bad people. They are bullies, they are willfully ignorant, and they have no interest in being better, either as a DM or as human beings.
-Even more extreme I would argue this DM's are in fact playing the game for the sole reason to stroke their fragile ego, engage in dominating anti-social, and otherwise be "kick sand in people's faces".
-My solution is simple, to anybody who is playing with such a DM, No the problem isn't you. You are in an abusive relationship. Get out now, don't let the door hit you on the way out, just EXIT! Life is far too short to think that these excuses of human beings are the hobby. They aren't, they are disgusting human beings, and we'd be better off if they were not present at game stores at all. Unfortunately, they have money, often too much money, and so are valuable clients of any company.
-Now my question is simple, do I go to far? Are Bad DM's simply incompetent, or is there a level of malevolence as I suggest? What do you think？
Yes,they are all EVIL! They spend all of their off time plotting to kill your character and steal your Doritos while you go to the bathroom. Those players that the DM does good things for, they are the DM's henchmen!
They are just helping the evil DM set you up for failure! They take great glee in knowing that this is really your campaign,not the DM's that they are ruining and not playing the right way.I bet they are reading your post right now and laughing an evil laugh as they plot new ways to torment you.
You have to do something NOW, or the terrorists will win!
Can my paladin DM fall? I has to know.
Silly flamebait thread. All dms are a**h***s out to get you and screw you over. Didn't you know?
That's what you want though. Bunch a crybabys.
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-I admit the thread has rather out-there nature, but I've noticed most of the responses have ignored my two caveats, namely that
Inexperience
Incompetence
are valid reasons for being a bad DM without being evil.
-Secondly, when I say railroad to hell, I refer to the "rocks fall everybody dies" school of railroading, or the "Your sword fails to hurt the dragon because it is so powerful and a key plot point." I refer to railroading over the characters actions "no you don't get to roll sense motive on the vampire lord"...railroading that break the characters role as the stars of the show
-Another poster asked what's my point...well I put it here, over the years several players have told me...this is a paraphrase
It's nice to play in a game with an actual story, instead of a game where the DM rewards his friends, punishes people, and behaves like a capricious child. Now remember I've heard this several times, and secondly, these are all people in their 20's.
-In addition when I ask people who've played table top RPGs but didn't like their experience, they almost always share examples of power-tripping capricious DMs.
-In conclusion, I'm arguing that bad DM's are bad because of their own personality issues, and not their 'techniques'. In other words, they are not bad DM's by incompetence, but rather choose (perhaps subconcisouly) to DM to get back at society.
You are still asking "are DMs that run games I don't like, bad people?" What may be a "railroad to hell" for you is another's survival horror game.
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Ahahahahaha! Finally, my evil plan is coming to fruition! All those years of bad GMing, all those delicious tears reaped from my unsuspecting players as I tortured their souls with my GMPCs and incurable diseases all the while pretending that their struggles would pay off next session, and it NEVER DID!
Ahahaha!
Now, at last, it has all payed off! *Twirls mustache* All that's left now is to grab one of my player's children and tie them to a railroad track to force them to start split the party at a crucial moment, letting me TPK the group while shifting the blame onto them for splitting up!
Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Look, I'm a bad DM, and a bad person, so take it from me, all you can do is try harder, and hope that one day you'll get it right and it won't seem like it has all been a waste of time.
Farewell, friend. I was a thousand times more evil than thou!
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Ahahahahaha! Finally, my evil plan is coming to fruition! All those years of bad GMing, all those delicious tears reaped from my unsuspecting players as I tortured their souls with my GMPCs and incurable diseases all the while pretending that their struggles would pay off next session, and it NEVER DID!
Ahahaha!
Now, at last, it has all payed off! *Twirls mustache* All that's left now is to grab one of my player's children and tie them to a railroad track to force them to start split the party at a crucial moment, letting me TPK the group while shifting the blame onto them for splitting up!
Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You don't have to split them up. Just have burning rocks fall from the sky.
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You don't have to split them up. Just have burning rocks fall from the sky.Ahahahahaha! Finally, my evil plan is coming to fruition! All those years of bad GMing, all those delicious tears reaped from my unsuspecting players as I tortured their souls with my GMPCs and incurable diseases all the while pretending that their struggles would pay off next session, and it NEVER DID!
Ahahaha!
Now, at last, it has all payed off! *Twirls mustache* All that's left now is to grab one of my player's children and tie them to a railroad track to force them to start split the party at a crucial moment, letting me TPK the group while shifting the blame onto them for splitting up!
Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And here it is that you betray your amateurishness and walk right into my trap! The split party means that the PCs bear the blame for their failure, allowing my reputation to emerge unstained and letting me gather a new group to torment!
Also, I needed an excuse to tie someone to a railroad track. It's part of my Evil GM's union requirements, right under 'Rocks fall, everyone gets infected with incurable diseases that force them to seek out a specific holy man only to die just before they reach him'.
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Who cares who is blamed? It's the characters' fault by definition anyway.
Noob.
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Look, I'm a bad DM, and a bad person, so take it from me, all you can do is try harder, and hope that one day you'll get it right and it won't seem like it has all been a waste of time.Farewell, friend. I was a thousand times more evil than thou!
Heh. I wonder what kind of DM Stormbringer would be?
Who cares who is blamed? It's the characters' fault by definition anyway.
Noob.
Your incredibly well thought out and compelling argument has shown me the error of my ways. I pledge here and now to reform.
Falling rocks for all!
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Heh. I wonder what kind of DM Stormbringer would be?Look, I'm a bad DM, and a bad person, so take it from me, all you can do is try harder, and hope that one day you'll get it right and it won't seem like it has all been a waste of time.Farewell, friend. I was a thousand times more evil than thou!
Poor Elric....always bawwing about being railroaded.
Who cares who is blamed? It's the characters' fault by definition anyway.
Noob.
Your incredibly well thought out and compelling argument has shown me the error of my ways. I pledge here and now to reform.
Falling rocks for all!
See, that's what they're going to do anyway, no matter what you do: "BAWWWW! MY DM IS MEAN TO ME!!! BAAW! BAAW!"
So, who cares?
My fellow evil GMs, join me in an evil laugh! Muhahahaha!
Bad people are bad people.
I cannot argue with this logic.
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-I admit the thread has rather out-there nature, but I've noticed most of the responses have ignored my two caveats, namely that
Inexperience
Incompetence
are valid reasons for being a bad DM without being evil.
-Secondly, when I say railroad to hell, I refer to the "rocks fall everybody dies" school of railroading, or the "Your sword fails to hurt the dragon because it is so powerful and a key plot point." I refer to railroading over the characters actions "no you don't get to roll sense motive on the vampire lord"...railroading that break the characters role as the stars of the show
-Another poster asked what's my point...well I put it here, over the years several players have told me...this is a paraphrase
It's nice to play in a game with an actual story, instead of a game where the DM rewards his friends, punishes people, and behaves like a capricious child. Now remember I've heard this several times, and secondly, these are all people in their 20's.
-In addition when I ask people who've played table top RPGs but didn't like their experience, they almost always share examples of power-tripping capricious DMs.
-In conclusion, I'm arguing that bad DM's are bad because of their own personality issues, and not their 'techniques'. In other words, they are not bad DM's by incompetence, but rather choose (perhaps subconcisouly) to DM to get back at society.
When I asked what was the point, I meant what's the point of identifying your preferred play style as "good" and mine as "bad"? It doesn't bother me if the rules change to fit the dm's story, it doesn't bother me if different players get different amounts of spotlight time. I don't care if there's a heavy railroad - in fact, my favourite DM takes it to the extreme sometimes and turns up with characters saying "I think you'll like this guy". My last pc with him was a religious fanatic desperate to become his faiths next martyr - not a concept I ever would have come up with, but I really enjoyed playing him.
You dont like the kinds of games i do and I don't like what you do but who cares? If a DM runs a game a player doesn't like, that doesn't mean either of them are bad or wrong it just means they should compromise or play with other people.
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Hey dungeonmaster heathy, I didn't see you at the last evil overseers, overlords, dark princes, infernal conquerors and vindictive dungeon masters guild annual dance. what gives?
Yes Bad people make for Bad GMs.
Oh and thanks for reminding me of that HORRIBLE GM I had that said "You are only here to make my friend's experience in this game better." HE was a bad person as well as a bad GM.
[rant]
What?! Did he think he could just recruit a nice role player and expect her to just be the interactive sidekick for his buddy the Big Hero! That she would never want anything out of the game for herself?
[/rant]
Hey dungeonmaster heathy, I didn't see you at the last evil overseers, overlords, dark princes, infernal conquerors and vindictive dungeon masters guild annual dance. what gives?
You'll understand when the Americium I laced the punch with starts damaging livers.
(Wrong Alias)
Vampire. AKA immune to those annoyances that mortals suffer from.
GM that runs a disappointing game - Not a bad person.
GM that knowingly and callously tapdances all over the triggers of others - Well....
....yeah, bad people are jerks to others, but that kind of behaviour is not contained within a gaming table.
If a person is bad, it's likely they are bad in a multitude of situations. The DM seat just offers more power to abuse for such people.