My current DM is saying that a character can't wear both a regular armor, and an amulet of nat ac saying that the amulet puts barkskin on you which keeps one from gaining the bonus with armor. I informed him that NA AC is a type(and the amulet doesn't put barkskin on you), and that since it is a different type, they stack. Mind if you all chip in with your proofs. Insofar my list of types goes as thus.
Ability Modifier
Alchemical Bonus
Armor Bonus
Circumstance Bonus
Competence Modifier
Deflection Bonus
Dodge Bonus
Divine Bonus***only granted by deities
Enhancement Bonus
Epic Bonus***only granted in epic levels
Exalted Bonus***only granted by an exalted character putting the bonus on an item
Inherent bonus***gained from wishes
Insight Bonus
Luck Modifier
Morale Modifier
Natural Armor Bonus
Perfection Bonus***DM specific and usually only celestials get that
Profane Modifier***does not stack with sacred
Racial Bonus
Resistance Bonus
Sacred Modifier***does not stack with profane
Shield Bonus
Size Modifier
Untyped Bonus
Let me know if I missed any, and if I'm right, or if he is, under the pathfinder rule sets. And when you do, please give the actual book and page number so it can be referenced.
Your list looks good but here are a few points.
Inherent Bonus do not only come from wishes, but they do not affect Armor Class. An Inherent bonus is a permanent bonus to your ability scores that caps at 5 and does not stack with other Inherent bonuses to the same ability score.
Resistance bonuses also only affect Saving Throws.
Alchemical, Circumstance, Competence, and Morale bonuses also do not usually affect Armor Class.
You may have just presented this list as a list of all the bonus types but since the thread has to deal with Armor Class bonuses I thought I would point that out to you.
Here is a good resource for the main bonus types and how and when to use them.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/magic/designingSpells.html #_bonus-types
I'm aware that they stack, but my DM doesn't accept my explanation, so books and page numbers would be appreciated from the pathfinder books and/or paizo website. Preferably both. Once all ironclad sources are cited, I will refer my DM to this thread. He thinks it is broken to stack an armor enhancement bonus type(non-magic) with a natural armor bonus type(from the amulet). Explaining the differences in Types didn't sway him, so that's why I need the ironclad sources from pathfinder. Thanks ahead of time.
Look at any monster in the bestiary with both armor and a natural armor bonus (I think gnolls qualify). It'll add up.
Tell him to look up the Fire Giant in the Bestiary:
AC 24, touch 8, flat-footed 24 (+8 armor, –1 Dex, +8 natural, –1 size)
Or better yet, the Infernal Champion in the NPC Codex:
AC 30, touch 13, flat-footed 27 (+12 armor, +3 Dex, +5 natural)
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From the rulebook under Armor Class:
Other Modifiers: Many other factors modify your AC.
Enhancement Bonuses: Enhancement bonuses apply to your armor to increase the armor bonus it provides.
Deflection Bonus: Magical deflection effects ward off attacks and improve your AC.
Natural Armor: If your race has a tough hide, scales, or thick skin you receive a bonus to your AC.
Dodge Bonuses: Dodge bonuses represent actively avoiding blows. Any situation that denies you your Dexterity bonus also denies you dodge bonuses. (Wearing armor, however, does not limit these bonuses the way it limits a Dexterity bonus to AC.) Unlike most sorts of bonuses, dodge bonuses stack with each other.
These are modifiers to your AC meaning they stack with how you already determine AC. Most PCs have a natural armor value of 0. The amulet of natural armor gives you an enhancement bonus to your natural armor and since natural armor modifies your AC it stacks with anything else giving you an AC bonus.
The easiest way to prove it is to find a statblock in a scenario/mod/AP of a creature with armor and an amulet of NA and look at its AC.
Edit: NPC codex and bestiaries have some too.
I actually had that idea, and pointed that out to him. He says it is broken.So outside of monster books, preferably source books that explain the types and how they stack, or something on paizo.
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Why does he think it's broken?
That's the thing I can't wrap my head around.
Bear in mind that the rules say they stack. Every single statblock says they stack. The rules and statblocks are based on the assumption that they stack. Attack bonuses assume they stack. The game, as it has existed for the last 14 years, has not broken as a result of natural armour and armour stacking, so why does he think it's broken?
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I actually had that idea, and pointed that out to him. He says it is broken.So outside of monster books, preferably source books that explain the types and how they stack, or something on paizo.
That's just ... in the books. It can be plainly read. ><
Pfsrd gives us:
Bonus (Natural Armor)
A natural armor bonus improves Armor Class resulting from a creature's naturally tough hide. Natural armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to Armor Class (even with armor bonuses) except other natural armor bonuses. Some magical effects (such as the barkskin spell) grant an enhancement bonus to the creature's existing natural armor bonus, which has the effect of increasing the natural armor's overall bonus to Armor Class. A natural armor bonus doesn't apply against touch attacks.
Why does he think it's broken?
That's the thing I can't wrap my head around.
Bear in mind that the rules say they stack. Every single statblock says they stack. The rules and statblocks are based on the assumption that they stack. Attack bonuses assume they stack. The game, as it has existed for the last 14 years, has not broken as a result of natural armour and armour stacking, so why does he think it's broken?
Because my character is a warlock with 24 AC(higher than the fighter in magic fullplate). He is wearing non-magic breastplate +6 armor, +3 dex, and with the amulet of natural armor +5.
Why does the fighter not have an Amulet of Natural Armor, A Ring of Protection, and so forth?
If you have a +5 item, you have to be pretty high level. Sounds like he's just been neglecting his AC, which is no fault of yours.
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I am not sure of the nature of the campaign, but if you can afford/found an Amulet of Natural Armor +5 and your AC is only 24 then it is a weird campaign if the fighter is not in the 30's.
A 24 is not a high AC past about 6th level. A wizard with a +2 Ring, +2 Amulet, a dex of 14, and two spells can have that in no time...not to mention other buff spells like Haste, Blessings of Fervor, etc.
This is the rules forum so you got your answer that they stack. If you want advice, then you need to convince your DM that he is a little off on this subject, live with it, or find a new game. Plus, as you are playing a Warlock, it seems that you guys are already a little loose with the Pathfinder/3.5 barrier (which I find insurmountable, but I know others do not). Good luck!
Why does the fighter not have an Amulet of Natural Armor, A Ring of Protection, and so forth?
If you have a +5 item, you have to be pretty high level. Sounds like he's just been neglecting his AC, which is no fault of yours.
It was actually found as loot, he declined and gave it to me since I had the lowest ac in the party at the time. Don't really have to be a higher lvl, my character is a warlock, with a total of 16 for UMD(with cha/ranks/+3 class skill), counting the warlocks take 10 ability, he essentially has a 26 for UMD which means any items usable that require 6th lvl magic. 4 more points, and not even alignment restriction will be barred from me.
I am not sure of the nature of the campaign, but if you can afford/found an Amulet of Natural Armor +5 and your AC is only 24 then it is a weird campaign if the fighter is not in the 30's.
A 24 is not a high AC past about 6th level. A wizard with a +2 Ring, +2 Amulet, a dex of 14, and two spells can have that in no time...not to mention other buff spells like Haste, Blessings of Fervor, etc.
This is the rules forum so you got your answer that they stack. If you want advice, then you need to convince your DM that he is a little off on this subject, live with it, or find a new game. Plus, as you are playing a Warlock, it seems that you guys are already a little loose with the Pathfinder/3.5 barrier (which I find insurmountable, but I know others do not). Good luck!
I agree completely. 24 AC is not that high, though we're playing a campaign where magic items don't grow on trees. I've sent the link to this particular thread to him, so hopefully he'll accept the rules do indeed say they stack.
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Here is a good resource for the main bonus types and how and when to use them.
In addition to the link that Hendelbolaf provided you can show your GM THIS one as well.
Usually, a bonus has a type that indicates how the spell grants the bonus. The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don't generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works (see Combining Magical Effects). The same principle applies to penalties—a character taking two or more penalties of the same type applies only the worst one, although most penalties have no type and thus always stack. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.
Actually, he should look to how every source of dodge bonus stacks in this game. That should be broken, except that it isn't.
How many sources of dodge bonuses are there, that are likely to be in play at a time?
Dodge feat
Haste spell
What are some others?
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Actually, he should look to how every source of dodge bonus stacks in this game. That should be broken, except that it isn't.How many sources of dodge bonuses are there, that are likely to be in play at a time?
Dodge feat
Haste spellWhat are some others?
Combat Expertise
Fighting defensivelyTotal Defense
If your GM isn't willing to accept that, then he will not accept anything as proof. This is as plain as it can be. Scroll to natural armor is where the text was found.
If your GM doesn't accept that, then you have to decide whether this is important enough for you to leave the game or not. Personally I think I'd stay with the group unless other things were bothering me aswell.
While correct on this, d20pfsrd is not an official rules source in the slightest - expecting a GM to accept that is a stretch.
I have been unable to locate similar rules text in the Core rulebook, or anywhere in the PRD. Meaning they probably made it up.
Our party has consistently suffered from very low AC. At 7th level, the highest AC in the party (of six) was 20. We've also been extremely cash poor, but finally came into some loot and as of 8th level most of the PCs will have been able to bump that up by 3 points or so.
@ Arthanos and Nefreet: All true. Most of our group likely won't feel they have a feat to spare for Combat Expertise, though the Fighter and Rogue could. And the "group mind" usually decides that once you do get into combat, the bests defense is to kill/disable the opponent as quickly as possible, so the options of fighting defensively and total defense tend to be unused. Perhaps we should rethink that. Offensive Defense, Mobility and Nimble are all highly situational.
I'd like to identify as many "passive" stackable AC bonuses as possible that will frequently apply, and aren't dependent on specific classes (yeah, I get a WIS bonus to AC for being a Monk, but I'm not a Monk, so...) or races or traits (chosen at character creation time, so that ship has sailed.)
Well, if he's not willing to take the Core Rules info:
Armor Class
Your Armor Class (AC) represents how hard it is for opponents to land a solid, damaging blow on you. It's the attack roll result that an opponent needs to achieve to hit you. Your AC is equal to the following:10 + armor bonus + shield bonus + Dexterity modifier + other modifiers
Note that armor limits your Dexterity bonus, so if you're wearing armor, you might not be able to apply your whole Dexterity bonus to your AC (see Table: Armor and Shields).
Sometimes you can't use your Dexterity bonus (if you have one). If you can't react to a blow, you can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC. If you don't have a Dexterity bonus, your AC does not change.
Other Modifiers: Many other factors modify your AC.
Enhancement Bonuses: Enhancement bonuses apply to your armor to increase the armor bonus it provides.
Deflection Bonus: Magical deflection effects ward off attacks and improve your AC.
Natural Armor: If your race has a tough hide, scales, or thick skin you receive a bonus to your AC.
Dodge Bonuses: Dodge bonuses represent actively avoiding blows. Any situation that denies you your Dexterity bonus also denies you dodge bonuses. (Wearing armor, however, does not limit these bonuses the way it limits a Dexterity bonus to AC.) Unlike most sorts of bonuses, dodge bonuses stack with each other.
Then there's no helping him.
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If your GM isn't willing to accept that, then he will not accept anything as proof. This is as plain as it can be. Scroll to natural armor is where the text was found.
If your GM doesn't accept that, then you have to decide whether this is important enough for you to leave the game or not. Personally I think I'd stay with the group unless other things were bothering me aswell.While correct on this, d20pfsrd is not an official rules source in the slightest - expecting a GM to accept that is a stretch.
I have been unable to locate similar rules text in the Core rulebook, or anywhere in the PRD. Meaning they probably made it up.
Indeed. Never assume that because something is on the SRD that it's actual rules text published by Paizo, even if a book is listed at the bottom of the page. Some of the contributors for that site like to write original text based on their own understanding of things and include it as though it had been published by Paizo. And naturally, there's too much content for those in charge to catch every such instance.
If your GM isn't willing to accept that, then he will not accept anything as proof. This is as plain as it can be. Scroll to natural armor is where the text was found.
If your GM doesn't accept that, then you have to decide whether this is important enough for you to leave the game or not. Personally I think I'd stay with the group unless other things were bothering me aswell.While correct on this, d20pfsrd is not an official rules source in the slightest - expecting a GM to accept that is a stretch.
I have been unable to locate similar rules text in the Core rulebook, or anywhere in the PRD. Meaning they probably made it up.
In defense of the d20PFSRD site, they specifically say that those entries for bonus types are taken from the d20SRD site. That means that they are actually 3.5 and not Pathfinder. However, that is the base from which Pathfinder originated so it may be safe to assume the developers would agree with the definitions.
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Is "divine" even a bonus type these days? I thought that was covered by sacred/profane.
Also, I'm not sure Morale and Insight are bonus types that apply to AC. They're bonus types, but not all bonus types can be applied to AC.
I think there is an Ioun stone in Seeker of Secrets that grants an insight bonus to AC.
Most of the text on d20pfsrd is on the prd(an official rules source).
The book also says different bonus types stack. There are also NPC's made by Pathfinder. Would he accept official NPC's as proof?
I think there is an Ioun stone in Seeker of Secrets that grants an insight bonus to AC.Is "divine" even a bonus type these days? I thought that was covered by sacred/profane.
Also, I'm not sure Morale and Insight are bonus types that apply to AC. They're bonus types, but not all bonus types can be applied to AC.
Ghost Rager (Rage Power) adds a morale bonus to touch AC as well.
Another source of dodge bonus is duelist/kensai. You can get up to about +25 dodge bonus to AC if you use combat expertise, offensive defense, dodge, and mobility at the same time. Rogue 10/Duelist 10 with 30 int.
Check the Foresight spell for a core rules effect that grants an insight bonus to AC.
Look up Queen Ileosa... Sheesh, talk about stacking AC!
Dude. spoilers!
IF the DM is house ruling that Natural Armor and normal Armor does not stack, there's not much incentive for the fighter to take it.Why does the fighter not have an Amulet of Natural Armor, A Ring of Protection, and so forth?
Not much incentive for anyone to take it. Why shell out 50k for +5 to your armor when you can get the same exact effect for 16k via a +4 Hakarami and get the exact same effect? (No ACP or arcane failure chance). For the vast majority of martials, a 200 gp Breastplate would be considered superior to a +5 Amulet of Natural Armor if the bonuses did not stack.
The thing is ... he thinks Nat Armor and Armor stacking is wrong because of the Amulet the Warlock got, and because the Warlock now out-ACs the Fighter.
Prior to awarding this overpowered item he should not have at this level, he was (as I read it), not having any problems with them stacking, and I suspect if the Fighter had gotten the amulet, it would STILL not be a problem.
So the problem is ENTIRELY with the GM.