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I'm thinking about subscribing to Pathfinder Core, Adventure, Campaign, Player and Modules - however I have a problem with the "Hard copy + pdf" part of the deal, particularly the part where I cannot receive physical+pdf versions of older copies that shipped earlier. This puts me in a particularly frustrating position where I feel like I'm being unreasonably punished for not discovering Pathfinder earlier.
Right now, the current Adventure Path is "Mummy's Mask", which I'd love to receive - however the current issue is the second in the series - which means that if I were to subscribe right now, I wouldn't have the first part of the adventure path. That is; I wouldn't receive both the hardcover and pdf version.
Should wait for the Iron Gods adventure path before I subscribe? Because I find the value to be significantly diminished when I have to choose between a hardcopy or a pdf copy - and I certainly ain't interested in paying TWICE for every copy (not to mention shipping, as I live in Europe). Why isn't there an option for new players/GMs to join in on purchasing non-current copies in both pdf and hardcover format without essentially paying double? Purchasing all the previously released material is already expensive enough as it is.
Vic Wertz on why subscriber benefits don't apply retroactively
There's usually one, sometimes two, big sales a year where you can pick up older books and PDFs at a substantial discount -- though still not as cheaply as a subscriber got both together when they were new releases. Paizo depends on monthly income and wants to be sure the cheapest way to get the product directly from them is via the subscription model.
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@Mromson: Subscribe now, pay for the hardcover edition of Book One of Mummy's Mask and I'll buy you a gift certificate for the PDF.
@Mromson: Subscribe now, pay for the hardcover edition of Book One of Mummy's Mask and I'll buy you a gift certificate for the PDF.
Heh, alright - deal. ;) I've subscribed and paid for the hardcover~
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damn. Nice guy.
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I hadn't previously bought a gift certificate, so there were a couple of missteps, but it should be there now.
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@Mromson: Subscribe now, pay for the hardcover edition of Book One of Mummy's Mask and I'll buy you a gift certificate for the PDF.
Classy. Way classy.
I'm a little sad myself, I just went looking for maps and apparently the only one worth it is for Kingmaker. *shakes head*
I hadn't previously bought a gift certificate, so there were a couple of missteps, but it should be there now.
I got an email stating that I received a gift - but no gift (or info about it) is available anywhere o_O
An anonymous person has given you a gift on paizo.com.
1 x paizo.com Gift Certificate
Your gift certificate has been automatically redeemed and store credit has been applied to your account.
You may view your gift certificates on your My Gift Certificates page at:
https://secure.paizo.com/paizo/account/giftsBest regards,
Paizo Customer Service
customer.service@paizo.com
So, you follow the My Account link at the top of the page, and then click on Redeem Gift Certificates on the right side of the next screen, no certificate is listed?
So, you follow the My Account link at the top of the page, and then click on Redeem Gift Certificates on the right side of the next screen, no certificate is listed?
The Redeem a paizo.com gift certificate (https://secure.paizo.com/paizo/account/gifts) page only shows a box that asks for a Gift Certificate Claim Code, and below that is are the Terms and Conditions listed :S
Aha! i just found this:
"If you've received an e-mail from us letting you know that someone has purchased a gift certificate for you, it has already been redeemed for store credit on your account—just use the store credit as a form of payment at checkout. You can view your available store credit on your My Account page, and you'll also see it as a payment option at checkout."
http://paizo.com/store/giftCertificates
Aha! i just found this:
"If you've received an e-mail from us letting you know that someone has purchased a gift certificate for you, it has already been redeemed for store credit on your account—just use the store credit as a form of payment at checkout. You can view your available store credit on your My Account page, and you'll also see it as a payment option at checkout."
http://paizo.com/store/giftCertificates
Doesn't work, my account is listed as having no store credit :S
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Doesn't work, my account is listed as having no store credit :SAha! i just found this:
"If you've received an e-mail from us letting you know that someone has purchased a gift certificate for you, it has already been redeemed for store credit on your account—just use the store credit as a form of payment at checkout. You can view your available store credit on your My Account page, and you'll also see it as a payment option at checkout."
http://paizo.com/store/giftCertificates
Gifted credit has been glitchy the last few months, open a thread in the customer service section, and they should be able to poke the credit to make it appear
Paizo Customer Service Algorithm
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This was just brought to my attention - Mromson I've given the store credit a poke and it should be properly displaying on your account. You should be good to purchase the PDF. :)
@Mromson: Subscribe now, pay for the hardcover edition of Book One of Mummy's Mask and I'll buy you a gift certificate for the PDF.
You sir, are awesome.
This was just brought to my attention - Mromson I've given the store credit a poke and it should be properly displaying on your account. You should be good to purchase the PDF. :)
@Mromson: Subscribe now, pay for the hardcover edition of Book One of Mummy's Mask and I'll buy you a gift certificate for the PDF.You sir, are awesome.
It worked! Much appreciated. ;)
And yes, he is indeed awesome! Thanks ^_^
Not getting the PDF version of a book purchased in hardcover form is probably my only nitpick with Paizo. I'm sure there are business reasons why simply providing the PDF for free would be infeasible (though the Vic Wertz post linked above was entirely unconvincing), but every time I have to lug a library through a convention center to a PFS event, I'm going to get a little grumpy.
And, no, I'm not buying the same book twice.
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Wow, KEITH is a pretty sophisticated-sounding algorithm. We've come a long way since ELIZA. :)
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I'm sure there are business reasons why simply providing the PDF for free would be infeasible (though the Vic Wertz post linked above was entirely unconvincing),
'We don't want to undercut our subscription model' is unconvincing?
Perhaps an improved model should be introduced for those of us who weren't around when Pathfinder first came out. Maybe something along the lines of "If you subscribe to x number of subscriptions, you can have the hardcover+pdf bonus applied to one additional non-subscribed item that you add into your sidecart."
This way the subscription is still the best way to go, but also rewards customers who perhaps weren't around when the products first launched, by allowing them to "catch up" to the rest of the customer base. And if that still isn't enough, remove the adventure path 15% discount for the "extra hardcover+pdf deal per month" deal.
It would still keep subscription as the definitive best (read; cheapest) way to get your product, while giving newcomers a reason to subscribe and stay subscribed to catch up on the backlog.
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Blaphers, would you prefer to receive a paycheck for an expected amount every 2 weeks or would you prefer to receive a paycheck every 6 months for a potentially extremely variable amount. Keep in mind this blind amount will be directly impacted by your ability to determine how many hours you will be able to work that are paid; anything above those hours will get rolled over to future paychecks over time in varying amounts, anything below those hours will reduce your total pay.
This is what you are basically saying is unconvincing. The subscription model is Paizo's "2 week paycheck" (technically monthly, but hey, we're talking analogy), where they get a solid idea of how many units of Product X they require to fulfill the immediate demand and then add in a buffer. Undercutting their subscription model would put them in a position where they would need to blindly guess how many people will be buying Product X in 6 months time, tie up their resources and hope that their estimates (read as best guesses based off of questionable data) are extremely accurate.
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Mronson, you still undercut the existing business model that way. I could drop my subscription for 6 months, then pick it up again 6 months later and catch up over the next 6 months.
As someone who did indeed have to cancel his subscriptions for almost a year and a half, I know that picking up the pdfs for previously released stuff can be a bit expensive, but that's why I waited for a Paizo special to pick up most of what I was missing. Since you are an AP subscriber, the PDFs and back items already run you 15% less than normal and by using the current special offer you could pick up pdfs and previous hardbacks for an additional 10% off ... and with the amount you would save on picking up both, you would be getting the PDF for next to nothing this month.
Mromson, you still undercut the existing business model that way. I could drop my subscription for 6 months, then pick it up again 6 months later and catch up over the next 6 months.
As someone who did indeed have to cancel his subscriptions for almost a year and a half, I know that picking up the pdfs for previously released stuff can be a bit expensive, but that's why I waited for a Paizo special to pick up most of what I was missing. Since you are an AP subscriber, the PDFs and back items already run you 15% less than normal and by using the current special offer you could pick up pdfs and previous hardbacks for an additional 10% off ... and with the amount you would save on picking up both, you would be getting the PDF for next to nothing this month.
It would take you far longer than 6months to catch up from a 6month hiatus if you only get ONE extra "hardcover+pdf" deal per month, which (as per my suggestion) would only be granted if you had multiple subscriptions. So if the requirement was, say, 5 subscriptions, then you'd still pay for 5 different subscriptions, while only getting ONE extra hardcover+pdf deal per month. You'd need to subscribe for "at least" three times longer than your hiatus to catch up, and you'd STILL end up getting a worse deal.
I sincerely doubt such an approach would diminish monthly profits.
It would take you far longer than 6months to catch up from a 6month hiatus if you only get ONE extra "hardcover+pdf" deal per month, which (as per my suggestion) would only be granted if you had multiple subscriptions. So if the requirement was, say, 5 subscriptions, then you'd still pay for 5 different subscriptions, while only getting ONE extra hardcover+pdf deal per month. You'd need to subscribe for "at least" three times longer than your hiatus to catch up, and you'd STILL end up getting a worse deal.I sincerely doubt such an approach would diminish monthly profits.
That looks like it could work from the Paizo side (an alternative could be one deal per X months subscribed, to encourage people to keep subscriptions active longer-term and thus provide a better guaranteed income per month.) I think the stumbling block could be the retailers that are already grumpy about how good a deal Paizo subscriptions are (and whom Paizo wish to cooperate with in order to keep getting their products visible on store shelves.)
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Loss/risk aversion makes sense when the bad outcome is laying a lot of people off or the company folding.
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On a personal level it would also benefit me as somebody that probably buys the majority of the Pathfinder RPG books Paizo prints out but doesn't want to get every single one, or doesn't want the hassle of renewing and cancelling subscriptions all the time just so I can have free PDFs of what I buy stuff from here.
I am [for a few more months, at least] a Charter Subscriber to the Adventure Paths and long-time subscriber to the RPG, campaign setting and companion lines. I think I've opted out of only one subscription item to date, but there are more I don't want starting this summer, in multiple lines.
I too would enjoy some easier way to opt out of individual upcoming products, something that would involve bringing up a list of my next three scheduled releases in each subscription line, clicking a radio button to toggle sub/unsub, and having a mailbot send "You have successfully unsubscribed from the XXXXXXXXX line, and will not receive products in that line beginning with YYYYYYY of the ZZZZZZZZZ."
It would need to continue to display upcoming products in lines I was currently out of, so I could opt back in -- but My Subscriptions already does this, it just doesn't have radio buttons or checkboxes to automate the changes.
That KEITH algorithm seemed pretty slick, so this should be a breeze. :)
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I also think the people on this site and Paizo subscribers are sensible people for the most part. Even though there are always a few, I have a hard time seeing masses of them getting annoyed let alone going into internet rage because some non-subscribers might get some partial or full benefits they did years after they have already had them when they didn't have to wait for the product at all.
There's other issues beyond early subscribers feeling their past subscription has lost value - I joined as a subscriber late and heard many arguments about the long running philosophy of not offering subscriber perks to latecomers. Consequently, I went back and purchased all the PDFs and books which had come out prior to my subscription using just the PF advantage discount.
Suppose paizo now reversed their position and provided some form of cheap pdf/backorder process for new subscribers. Someone in my position has the right to feel aggrieved don't they, for taking paizo at their word only to have them change policy a few years down the track?
It has to do with undercutting brick and morter stores by effectively discounting the product by bundling it with the PDF. I think Vic mentioned somewhere that some that carry their products are already disgruntled by the subscription options.(and presumably have been)
It would be nice to see a discount PDF bundle for older APs. I don't know if people would hold off on purchasing them (which is a concern with some other things people ask Paizo about) if the bundle was only on APs that were more than a certain number of years old (Like 5 for the oldest APs)
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I realise the logic behind not offering the Free PDFs. But what is the issue with offering a discount on the PDF if you buy the Hardcover? A lot of other companies do this, even on the Paizo website.
Offering a discount on PDFs to people that buy the physical copy through the Paizo store (or a bundle) would further undercut the ability of bookstores to sell Pathfinder products.
Offering the same same PDF discount to people that buy the physical copy through a bookstore is a logistical nightmare.
So the basic answer is that Paizo doesn't want to discourage bookstores from carrying their products.
-Skeld
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And unlike small companies who rely mostly on PDF sales and therefore brick'n'mortars stores don't really factor much into their economy, Paizo has to mind the LGS situation - last thing you want is a store manager to get uppity, throw Pathfinder Society events out and relegate your books to the rear of the store, if not stop carrying them entirely.
Also, offering a Print/PDF bundle would invalidate Paizo's subscription model. For several of their product lines, the free PDF is the only perk of the subscription. If you offer the same deal to anyone buying at any time, you have fewer upfront sales, fewer guaranteed sales, and less of an idea how large a print run to pay for.
Paizo has had both PDF sales and bundle sales of older print products. They're just not an all-the-time thing.
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Not getting the PDF version of a book purchased in hardcover form is probably my only nitpick with Paizo. I'm sure there are business reasons why simply providing the PDF for free would be infeasible (though the Vic Wertz post linked above was entirely unconvincing), but every time I have to lug a library through a convention center to a PFS event, I'm going to get a little grumpy.
And, no, I'm not buying the same book twice.
It is not free for Paizo to make the .pdf, so I don't see why they should offer it for free (save out of incentive packages like the subscription bundles, where the value of the subscription itself makes up for the cost of digital production). .pdfs do not just appear magically when the book is published, fully formed and functional. You have to convert all of the layout/text files into the .pdf; you have to make sure it does it correctly, which is harder than you think when you've got a lot of graphics, layout extras, text, fancy fonts, etc.(anybody remember the "buttery knives" in the first Adventurer's Armory .pdf?), you have to add in the hyperlinking (like all that beautiful, beautiful tab navigation in Ultimate Equipment); you've got to make a "lite" version that is still properly functional; and you have to add in the watermarking encryption, because pirates are a*#~$!#s. There's probably other stuff they do as well that I am not thinking of because my abilities with Acrobat Professional are only so good (though I'll be taking a class soon). This requires at least one person who is good at digital production to oversee this process and add in the extra coding/technical stuff, and Paizo has to pay that person a living wage for the time and expertise spent on this process. Not to mention for the licenses for the necessary software. So again: not free for them, no reason for it to be free for us.
As it is, Paizo's .pdfs are extremely reasonably priced for the content, layout, and quality they deliver, especially the $10 rulebooks (which technically should cost a lot more based on market value).
If you don't want to "buy the same book twice" -- subscribe. You can start and cancel a sub any time you want (so you can skip the products you don't want), and most of the subscriptions add in the .pdf for free.
Alternately, since you don't want to lug books around, you could just buy the .pdfs, printing important portions when necessary.
Otherwise, if you feel it's unreasonable to pay for something that isn't, in fact, worth nothing, I don't think anyone here can help you.
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It is not free for Paizo to make the .pdf, so I don't see why they should offer it for free (save out of incentive packages like the subscription bundles, where the value of the subscription itself makes up for the cost of digital production). .pdfs do not just appear magically when the book is published, fully formed and functional. You have to convert all of the layout/text files into the .pdf; you have to make sure it does it correctly, which is harder than you think when you've got a lot of graphics, layout extras, text, fancy fonts, etc.(anybody remember the "buttery knives" in the first Adventurer's Armory .pdf?), you have to add in the hyperlinking (like all that beautiful, beautiful tab navigation in Ultimate Equipment); you've got to make a "lite" version that is still properly functional; and you have to add in the watermarking encryption, because pirates are a%+%~**s. There's probably other stuff they do as well that I am not thinking of because my abilities with Acrobat Professional are only so good (though I'll be taking a class soon). This requires at least one person who is good at digital production to oversee this process and add in the extra coding/technical stuff, and Paizo has to pay that person a living wage for the time and expertise spent on this process. Not to mention for the licenses for the necessary software. So again: not free for them, no reason for it to be free for us.
All very true!!!!
Marginal cost is not the same as cost,TBone.
Marginal cost is not the same as cost,TBone.
I rethought my post and decided I would rather not get into it.
Not getting the PDF version of a book purchased in hardcover form is probably my only nitpick with Paizo. I'm sure there are business reasons why simply providing the PDF for free would be infeasible (though the Vic Wertz post linked above was entirely unconvincing), but every time I have to lug a library through a convention center to a PFS event, I'm going to get a little grumpy.
And, no, I'm not buying the same book twice.
It is not free for Paizo to make the .pdf, so I don't see why they should offer it for free (save out of incentive packages like the subscription bundles, where the value of the subscription itself makes up for the cost of digital production). .pdfs do not just appear magically when the book is published, fully formed and functional. You have to convert all of the layout/text files into the .pdf; you have to make sure it does it correctly, which is harder than you think when you've got a lot of graphics, layout extras, text, fancy fonts, etc.(anybody remember the "buttery knives" in the first Adventurer's Armory .pdf?), you have to add in the hyperlinking (like all that beautiful, beautiful tab navigation in Ultimate Equipment); you've got to make a "lite" version that is still properly functional; and you have to add in the watermarking encryption, because pirates are a#~!&*~s. There's probably other stuff they do as well that I am not thinking of because my abilities with Acrobat Professional are only so good (though I'll be taking a class soon). This requires at least one person who is good at digital production to oversee this process and add in the extra coding/technical stuff, and Paizo has to pay that person a living wage for the time and expertise spent on this process. Not to mention for the licenses for the necessary software. So again: not free for them, no reason for it to be free for us.
As it is, Paizo's .pdfs are extremely reasonably priced for the content, layout, and quality they deliver, especially the $10 rulebooks (which...
Wouldn't Paizo be using those very .pdf's for printing purposes? That shouldn't cost extra, given that you'd need them for printing purposes. Then again I have no idea how said process goes, so I could be absurdly wrong.
I certainly think that the watermarking policy is absurdly ridiculous, especially after the product has been out for a while. Look at every video game in existence - they're all readily available despite the fact that some companies have gone to absurd lengths in their desire to control published content. What's a simple .pdf going to do against that? I don't really see it as anything but a punishment towards the consumer - "do I really want to see my damn name and email on every freakin' page in every pdf?" Things get out. Period.
From my perspective, if I own the hardcover of a book, then I immediately feel entitled to the digital version of the product as well. I generally don't mind if I'm charged a little premium for either hardcover or .pdf when I already own one version ("for convenience", as they say) - it's when I'm essentially told that I own one or the other, without paying (essentially) double when I get annoyed.
That said, this isn't my prime gripe. I'm fine with subscribing if that means I'll get both hardcover and pdf (to me, I'm basically paying for the base .pdf, then paying extra to have it printed professionally, and finally paying for shipping). My gripe is that I was late to the party, I didn't discover Pathfinder until recently, and now I have no way of catching up - beyond essentially paying double for every product that came before my discovery. And I'm being offered no way to catch up at a reasonable price. I don't think that's fair, and I also don't think good business model where you try to cling to the older consumer base, instead of trying to expand. Some might consider this an unreasonable position, however it is how I feel about the situation - ownership of the hardcover edition should automatically grant you access to the .pdf, instead of being part of some either/or exclusive club.
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It seems to be the same, however, if you come late to the party for music, or comics, or any of a number of other things. If you decide to go get a vinyl copy of the White Album, you don't automatically get an itunes download for free. If you go buy a cookbook, you don't usually get a digital copy for free.
You have ample ways to catch up on the books, be they digital or physical -- as people have noted, there are sales on ebay, Amazon, heck even Paizo offers bent and dent sales quite often. You just don't get both versions without paying for them both. You don't need both versions to catch up. If you want them, then sure you have to pay for them both. But it isn't needed. It's wanted, and wants are what usually cost you.
From my perspective, if I own the hardcover of a book, then I immediately feel entitled to the digital version of the product as well. I generally don't mind if I'm charged a little premium for either hardcover or .pdf when I already own one version ("for convenience", as they say) - it's when I'm essentially told that I own one or the other, without paying (essentially) double when I get annoyed.
It seems to me that your position is pretty common, so I wouldn't say it's unreasonable. Nonetheless, it's based on a flawed assumption (that the book and PDF are the same thing in a different format. They are two different products, so owning the hardcover doesn't entitle you to the use of the PDF.
It may become more and more common to provide both formats for the same price as purchasing one of them. However, that's not how things are now and it might make you feel better (maybe?) to adjust what you feel entitled to. Publishers who give you a free PDF with the purchase of a hard copy are doing you a favour and giving you more than they have to.
As I say, I don't think it's unreasonable to have your expectation/feel entitled - but it might be worth appreciating that it's not backed up by the legal situation (ownership of a physical product is a different thing from the right to view/store/use electronic data).
From my perspective, if I own the hardcover of a book, then I immediately feel entitled to the digital version of the product as well. I generally don't mind if I'm charged a little premium for either hardcover or .pdf when I already own one version ("for convenience", as they say) - it's when I'm essentially told that I own one or the other, without paying (essentially) double when I get annoyed.It seems to me that your position is pretty common, so I wouldn't say it's unreasonable. Nonetheless, it's based on a flawed assumption (that the book and PDF are the same thing in a different format. They are two different products, so owning the hardcover doesn't entitle you to the use of the PDF.
It may become more and more common to provide both formats for the same price as purchasing one of them. However, that's not how things are now and it might make you feel better (maybe?) to adjust what you feel entitled to. Publishers who give you a free PDF with the purchase of a hard copy are doing you a favour and giving you more than they have to.
As I say, I don't think it's unreasonable to have your expectation/feel entitled - but it might be worth appreciating that it's not backed up by the legal situation (ownership of a physical product is a different thing from the right to view/store/use electronic data).
Owning the physical media does entitle you to create your own backup (digital or otherwise) for your own use.
Owning the physical media does entitle you to create your own backup (digital or otherwise) for your own use.From my perspective, if I own the hardcover of a book, then I immediately feel entitled to the digital version of the product as well. I generally don't mind if I'm charged a little premium for either hardcover or .pdf when I already own one version ("for convenience", as they say) - it's when I'm essentially told that I own one or the other, without paying (essentially) double when I get annoyed.It seems to me that your position is pretty common, so I wouldn't say it's unreasonable. Nonetheless, it's based on a flawed assumption (that the book and PDF are the same thing in a different format. They are two different products, so owning the hardcover doesn't entitle you to the use of the PDF.
It may become more and more common to provide both formats for the same price as purchasing one of them. However, that's not how things are now and it might make you feel better (maybe?) to adjust what you feel entitled to. Publishers who give you a free PDF with the purchase of a hard copy are doing you a favour and giving you more than they have to.
As I say, I don't think it's unreasonable to have your expectation/feel entitled - but it might be worth appreciating that it's not backed up by the legal situation (ownership of a physical product is a different thing from the right to view/store/use electronic data).
And Paizo is incredibly unlikely to come to your house and make you delete your scanned copy of a book, assuming it's only for your own use.
My gripe is that I was late to the party, I didn't discover Pathfinder until recently, and now I have no way of catching up - beyond essentially paying double for every product that came before my discovery. And I'm being offered no way to catch up at a reasonable price. I don't think that's fair, and I also don't think good business model where you try to cling to the older consumer base, instead of trying to expand.
Well, consider the reverse position. Long time subscribers arguably have a right to feel "Hey, I've put up my cash month after month for years to support this game, and some guy who shows up last week gets the same benefits? How is that fair?"
I think Paizo's efforts to expand their customer base include not alienating the brick and mortar retailers, and broadening their original product lines to include regular card sets, flip maps, card games, audio, pre-painted figures, pawns, etc.
Owning the physical media does entitle you to create your own backup (digital or otherwise) for your own use.From my perspective, if I own the hardcover of a book, then I immediately feel entitled to the digital version of the product as well. I generally don't mind if I'm charged a little premium for either hardcover or .pdf when I already own one version ("for convenience", as they say) - it's when I'm essentially told that I own one or the other, without paying (essentially) double when I get annoyed.It seems to me that your position is pretty common, so I wouldn't say it's unreasonable. Nonetheless, it's based on a flawed assumption (that the book and PDF are the same thing in a different format. They are two different products, so owning the hardcover doesn't entitle you to the use of the PDF.
It may become more and more common to provide both formats for the same price as purchasing one of them. However, that's not how things are now and it might make you feel better (maybe?) to adjust what you feel entitled to. Publishers who give you a free PDF with the purchase of a hard copy are doing you a favour and giving you more than they have to.
As I say, I don't think it's unreasonable to have your expectation/feel entitled - but it might be worth appreciating that it's not backed up by the legal situation (ownership of a physical product is a different thing from the right to view/store/use electronic data).
Sure. That doesn't contradict what I said. Mronson doesn't seem to be referring to scanning ones own books.
He expects to be given a free PDF when he buys a book and there's no obligation for a publisher to provide that. He might be less annoyed if he can reconcile that fact.