Goblin Squad Member
|
Another thread covers whether sleepers should be visible. This is the flip side. How do sleepers (assuming invisible while sleeping) reenter the world? Do they come back where they slept? How much awarer are they before appearing? Is the player aware what is in the area before coming back or do the character appear (possibly surrounded by a large number of ready to attack? Can the player see that the scene is not healthy and change choice and not bring on line?
There seem too many ways to game this on either choice.a team waiting in lay for character to return OR character trying to use sleep to avoid combat (though if there was a 30 second timeout of protected sleeping, there is little chance of sleeper avoiding initial combat (30 covers 1/5 of a hex, possibly limit of visibility.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I've almost never seen where a player can know what their surroundings will be like for sure when logging in (except for certain FPS games). It's always good to have a little window of invulnerability though to allow a player to completely load into the game and then react to what they see around them instead of completing the load only to find themselves killed while they had no control.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I've almost never seen where a player can know what their surroundings will be like for sure when logging in (except for certain FPS games). It's always good to have a little window of invulnerability though to allow a player to completely load into the game and then react to what they see around them instead of completing the load only to find themselves killed while they had no control.
Invulnerability for log in and respawn for a few rounds (6 seconds each) should definitely be considered.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
First, we need a lore reason why our characters disappear from the game world when we log off in the wilds.
Then you can have a mechanic like EVE, where you 'enter' from something like warp space, so you are fully loaded in and battle ready.
Maybe our essences are all floating around in 'The Cloud' and we load in as incorporeal representations and quickly fall to the ground at the position we last left and land Thor style and take corporeal form. Every time someone logs in or logs off in the wilds, there could be a beacon of light either going up or coming down. While logging in you get a brief view of everything below you(think a titanfall eject).
There should be little help given to people who log off in wild territory, there should be a 'clean' log off if you are inside a settlement/POI with support, and you re-enter the world from a designated location(s) at said settlement/POI with support. Logging off in the wild should give you a brief look at what is around you, but the potential for logging into a immediate threat that kills you should be a possibility(like if you log out and an escalation cycle moves in). There should be no movement from where you log out, as that could be exploited for traveling purposes.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
I never liked when the gameplay must be explained by lore, so I can't agree with you about the need for a lore reason. I understand your position, I had a lot of discussions on the subject with other games, but I can't agree : I don't think that it would make sense, if most of the population was floating around in an incorporeal cloud 90% of the time. I prefer to just ignore that, and come up with an explanation when one is needed.
As the rest of your post, I have nothing to add. I agree that it's okay to be in danger when you logged off in the wild, and a few seconds are enough to get back on your feet.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Every time someone logs in or logs off in the wilds, there could be a beacon of light either going up or coming down.While this is a cool idea to have in an MMO, in a PvP setting it's just a bad one.
That's a matter of opinion. It depends on if you want people to be able to leave the game, and come back to what they were doing. I would like if people returning into the wild were identified to everyone looking in that direction in that hex. You never know if someone is closing in on your position, you can roll the dice and go back to what you were doing, or head back to a safe spot and then figure out what you are going to do. It depends on the amount of tension you want out in the wild areas of the map.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I never liked when the gameplay must be explained by lore, so I can't agree with you about the need for a lore reason. I understand your position, I had a lot of discussions on the subject with other games, but I can't agree : I don't think that it would make sense, if most of the population was floating around in an incorporeal cloud 90% of the time. I prefer to just ignore that, and come up with an explanation when one is needed.
As the rest of your post, I have nothing to add. I agree that it's okay to be in danger when you logged off in the wild, and a few seconds are enough to get back on your feet.
I like it when a game tries to explain or handwave away some of the oddities that come with the conventions of digital gaming, such as no-permadeath and the like. But sometime the mechanic just IS and there's no way to make it any less silly and illogical.
|
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
Yes of course, it's nice when there is some kind of link between gameplay & lore, but I think it must stay minor.
Permadeath, while I like the explanation in EvE, I think it's different, because it's hard-sci-fy context. I wouldn't like it, in the pathfinder context, even though I understand why you would.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
While Pathfinder Online is doing a great job of bringing an intense, real threat for their players by making their game an open PvP world, do not make the mistake of thinking the game should be a perfect model of realism.
There is very limited benefit for PO being concerned about player's bodies when they log out. There are numerous negatives involved. Extra load on the server, keeping track of those bodies and what nefarious acts might happen to them. Players staying in game past a healthy cut off point, so they can log out in a safe zone. The stress of being at work, away from the game while the gods know what is happening to your character. The feeling of rage as you log in to find that you had been killed and 25% of your equipment destroyed and some of the rest looted, and you had been completely helpless to prevent it.
The only logical argument for having the game keep track of your character while you are logged off is for realism and roll playing purposes. I ask you to please remember the medium in which this gaming experience is being delivered. They have already stated that PO will not be like a tabletop experience and for very good reason... it can't be. You won't be able to assign a watch as your party makes camp for the night. So what? The game still has plenty and more to offer. Respect the limitations at hand. It is not even VR, there is no reason to get overzealous.
The team at Pathfinder Online has done an awesome job of engineering rewards and consequences in this game. The consequences of logging off should fit into their design properly. Such heavy consequences, as the concept of "sleepers" present, for not being logged in do not meet those illustrated design goals. Simple as that.
I suggest the community drops the whole topic of "sleepers" and moves on to more productive concerns. Or if that game experience is one that you thrive for, I have heard about a game named Rust that is intentionally designed for your tastes. Perhaps trolling that game's forums would be a better use of your time.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
From your dismissive and rather arrogant representation, LordZodd, it is clear that either you did not bother to read what is being proposed and made up your mind at cursory glance, or possibly you have constructed a straw man argument imagining that your reader is unaware of rhetoric.
If you are at all interested in what gave this condition away you will need to read the posts already written. I see no need to summarize for someone so careless as you appear.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I admit that this topic was not the best place to post about Sleepers in PFO. Since it was intended to be a topic about logging into the game and any vulnerabilities involved in that process. I had just finished reading the Sleepers topic before reading this one so it was still on my mind.
I will post more responsibly in the future.
I agree with Bluddwolf, just a few seconds Invulnerability on login to give the player some time to get their bearings.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Any login invulnerability that allows one enough time to log off safely has major exploits to consider. Any that doesn't leaves a major vulnerability.
Wait, why is it a bad thing for the login invuln timer to last less time than the logout window? What's this "major vulnerability" you speak of?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Any login invulnerability that allows one enough time to log off safely has major exploits to consider. Any that doesn't leaves a major vulnerability.Wait, why is it a bad thing for the login invuln timer to last less time than the logout window? What's this "major vulnerability" you speak of?
I had the same thought. It seems to me that beginning to log off (or moving or using any abilities) should automatically remove the invulnerability from logging in.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
If you can't log off, you can't avoid an ambush set to hit you as you log in. The best outcome one could hope for in that case is enough time to fight a fair fight.
Anyone logging off in a place where they are at all likely to be ambushed on log-in should be prepared for that fact (I appreciate that RL sometimes means people cannot log off where they want to). I'm not sure that this (ie log-in) should be given any consideration beyond the client loading everything and the player being in control of the character.
As for a fair fight, I think anyone expecting fair fights in PFO to predominate will be sadly mistaken, so while you may hope for it, I wouldn't hold your breath.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Your character should persist in the world for 30-60 seconds anyway, with aggressive actions against you extending this timer, and the login invuln timer should be only a few seconds.
I completely agree that a character should persist for some amount of time in most cases, just to avoid combat logging issues that persist in online games that don't have the feature.
It is a pretty common thing in MMOs these days, I would be surprised if there wasn't a log out timer of some sort.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Many actually prevent you from logging out if you are in combat, requiring you to either be out of combat for a bit first or terminate the game where your character will remain in-game for a time.
Systems that force the player to be "clear" don't work that well. As if you can hide, you can log out. Logging out should never be a PVP tactic.
There could be a building that gives you an instant logout though, if it is inside a non-contested settlement, and you haven't received any flags that would extend logout time.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Many actually prevent you from logging out if you are in combat, requiring you to either be out of combat for a bit first or terminate the game where your character will remain in-game for a time.Systems that force the player to be "clear" don't work that well. As if you can hide, you can log out. Logging out should never be a PVP tactic.
There could be a building that gives you an instant logout though, if it is inside a non-contested settlement, and you haven't received any flags that would extend logout time.
I approve of this model. A 30-second log-out timer able to be broken by combat against you in the wilds. But an instant log-out within an inn, shrine and other designated locations.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Only problem with an instant log-out in a city is if someone has an assassin after them. I am not sure if PFO still plans on having the assassin contracts, but I remember reading about how they wanted settlements that are at war, or about to be at war so the settlement isn't contested yet, to hire assassins to target certain key leadership to decrease DI in the opposing settlement. If said leader could just instantly log-out when he sees an assassin targeting him then it would ruin all of that.
I could see maybe having the instant log-out in only one or two places in the settlement that are well known, like the main settlement hall, so the assassin has to kill his target before he makes it to the place he can log-out instantly. Of course then leaders can just hide in those buildings and bounce as soon as there is trouble.
Or maybe if you have the cool down from being targeted by the assassin you just can't instantly log-out at all until the cool-down is gone.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Many actually prevent you from logging out if you are in combat, requiring you to either be out of combat for a bit first or terminate the game where your character will remain in-game for a time.Systems that force the player to be "clear" don't work that well. As if you can hide, you can log out. Logging out should never be a PVP tactic.
There could be a building that gives you an instant logout though, if it is inside a non-contested settlement, and you haven't received any flags that would extend logout time.
I never said that being out of combat would grant an instant log out, only that you must not be in combat to start logging out.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Instant logout in safe locations aren't necessary in my opinion, as long it isn't obvious when a character is logging out.
I agree; what's the point in instantly logging out in a safe location? If the location is safe, you don't need to worry about staying in it for 30 more seconds (or however much time). If the location isn't actually safe (i.e., during war and such), then you shouldn't have the ability to log out instantly there to prevent abuses. So not sure why you would need to include that.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Instant logout in safe locations aren't necessary in my opinion, as long it isn't obvious when a character is logging out.I agree; what's the point in instantly logging out in a safe location? If the location is safe, you don't need to worry about staying in it for 30 more seconds (or however much time). If the location isn't actually safe (i.e., during war and such), then you shouldn't have the ability to log out instantly there to prevent abuses. So not sure why you would need to include that.
Have to throw in my vote here. It makes sense.
Aside from that, I would like to see it done just as it is in most other MMOs. 30 sec - 1 min logout. You can't log if engaged before or during that timer. A 15 - 30 sec log in invulnerability to cover any glitches, connection burps, or what have you.
No need for sleepers, their system drain, or log out - in "flares". The world will be plenty tough as is. No need to make aspects of play harder than they are in other such games...
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
There is a thread about logging out. This is about logging in. If a chacter logs out far from combat, …. and is 30 or 60 seconds subject to attack, but it does not happen; WHat happens 2 days real time when logging back in.
Why do some insist on hijacking that discussion when log out fits in the other thread?!?
Can you not read? One even said he read the other thread and decide to respond to that thread here! Duh!
I created separate thread to track difference. Many are happy top turn any thread in to their favor topic. When does this come about SAD or REP or CE?
Lots of posters want to talk about those.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
There is a thread about logging out. This is about logging in. If a chacter logs out far from combat, …. and is 30 or 60 seconds subject to attack, but it does not happen; WHat happens 2 days real time when logging back in.
Why do some insist on hijacking that discussion when log out fits in the other thread?!?
Can you not read? One even said he read the other thread and decide to respond to that thread here! Duh!
I created separate thread to track difference. Many are happy top turn any thread in to their favor topic. When does this come about SAD or REP or CE?
Lots of posters want to talk about those.
The subject of logging in has little to talk about and logging out goes hand in hand with it. It's not so easy to talk about the different possibilities on logging in without mention of how they might have been affected when they logged out which requires knowledge on how the log out process is done. Even you mention conditions of logout in your questions. Perhaps creating a different thread for it wasn't needed.
Until we're actually in the game or a dev replies it's all speculation and opinions on how we think it should work. Getting bent out of shape about it isn't doing you any favors.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Can you not read? One even said he read the other thread and decide to respond to that thread here! Duh!
Guilty.
In my defense, I had pounded back a few ales before that first post of mine in this thread, so I wasn't being very careful about where it should have gone or how nice I was perceived as.
Until we're actually in the game or a dev replies it's all speculation and opinions on how we think it should work. Getting bent out of shape about it isn't doing you any favors.
Well most of the threads currently fall into the speculative category. People are excited about PFO and just want to chat with other people that are excited too, so they are going to post on these forums like a drug addict desperate for a fix. Plus GW actually reads the community's opinions, the crazed wizards that they are, so speculating might actually be constructive here.
Now back to discussing logging in.
If there is a short 3-6 invulnerability you get on log in, I would suggest that you also can't do anything besides move. No attacking or spellcasting. I say this because if you can still attack it might be used as a tactic in battles. For example: Have a squad logged off in a certain area. Have someone lure an opposing group to said area. Have the squad login and attack the enemy for a few seconds while being invulnerable. While it would take some coordination, it is not impossible to pull off.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
If there is a short 3-6 invulnerability you get on log in, I would suggest that you also can't do anything besides move. No attacking or spellcasting. I say this because if you can still attack it might be used as a tactic in battles. For example: Have a squad logged off in a certain area. Have someone lure an opposing group to said area. Have the squad login and attack the enemy for a few seconds while being invulnerable. While it would take some coordination, it is not impossible to pull off.
That is pretty standard. In some games you lose it as soon as you start to move.