Buildings


Pathfinder Online

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Goblin Squad Member

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In another thread I mentioned an idea I had that was inspired by the old school War Craft Real Time Strategy games and I thought I would give this idea it's own thread for discussion.

The idea is that actual buildings would play an important role within the game in regards to what crafts would be able to be made be they wondrous items, enchanted arms and armor, potions, scrolls, skill books, weapons and armor, exotic material items or the like.

For example:

To produce spears you need basic wood and steel units, a basic blacksmith building and a crafter with minimal ranks in craft weapons.

To produce Masterwork Spears you will need iron wood, refined steel, an upgraded blacksmith building, and a crafter with some additional ranks in craft weapons.

To actually make Magical Spears though you would need everything you needed for Master Work weapons, and you would need a Wizard's Tower or Temple of Torag with skilled enough Wizards or Clerics with access to the needed materials to enchant such items.

I think that by making the buildings that exist within the community as important as the raw materials and the crafters themselves would create a unique dynamic, especially if their exist a city planner skill set or engineering skill set that determines what sort of buildings and upgrades are available to any given community.

For Example:

To build a basic small community you would need some basic raw materials, a city planner character with some basic skills, and enough gold and community members to act as labor to construct the various thatched roof cottages and basic crafting faculties for the Hamlet.

If you wanted to upgrade some of the houses from thatched roof cottages to wooden cabins lets say, then you would need someone with additional ranks in engineering, more wood, and more gold for the upgrade.

If you wanted to upgrade the basic blacksmith crafting station to be capable of producing Masterwork Quality Crafts, then the hamelet would need to invest in building an ore refinery or a metal works which would require a larger investment of gold and materials as well as a more skilled engineer.

In my noobish mind I think this could create a great dynamic in that starting communities would not need much more then members to get off the ground and start farming dirt and building horse shoes, but should they ever wish to upgrade themselves to a town with masterwork quality works and wonders then they will need to pool resources to invest in such upgrades. Over time as hamlets gain community members and as a community continue to invest in improving their community resources they could grow into a town, and then eventually someday even become a city with stone walls, castles and keeps.

The more members there are that make up a community the more they could do for themselves, and the more that a community could provide for it's members the more people will likely look to join said community. Still though no two cities will be alike because there will always be choices that need to be made and limited resources made available.

Town A may push to upgrade it's Weapon Productions first.

Town B may push to upgrade it's shrine to a Temple

Now both Town A and B will be far from becoming Cities and both communities will be eager for the item upgrades and benefits that can be made available to them if they were to upgrade. Will the two towns start fighting over local resources? Will the two create some sort of alliance in which they share resources which will significantly slow down their ability to throw resources into their community upgrades? Will crafters who's skill has surpassed their communities crafting facilities leave in search of a community with the advanced faculties needed so they may make their masterworks?

What sort of taxes will Leader A place upon his community? or City B for that matter? Will the difference in taxes be enough to make smuggling Masterwork Weapons made in town A into the market's of Town B to avoid steep taxes, even with the possibility of losing a shipment of stock to road way gankers and bandits?

Goblin Squad Member

Now I was also thinking that in addition to needing buildings and upgraded faculties for crafting, that buildings could also provide other benefits to the communities that have them.

For Example:

In addition to making healing potions and curing diseases, Temples could also provide adventure hooks that can lead to gaining Faction Points with said religion which will in time perhaps unlock little perks to those with enough status with said religion. Torag's Temples could perhaps award the loyal some rare blueprints needed to learn how to make Dwarven War Axes, or the Temple of Gorum could unlock a particular skill such as Advanced Heavy Armor which would provide people with the skill some additional defense while wearing the appropriate armor.

Taverns could be a source of mysterious strangers selling treasure maps, or other such classic adventure starters. Upgraded Taverns may provide a slight discount on how long it takes to train social skills while within the tavern's walls.

Schools of Magic could unlock the option for characters for characters to learn new spells and unlock some advanced magical skill trees.

Militia Barracks could provide some NPC roaming guards that walk the town or city streets looking to keep the peace.

If you were seriously looking to be the best swordsman ever, would you be willing to travel from town to town looking for the place that could provide you the training you needed to become a Duelist?

If you want to be thief would you need to find a city with a black market and or thieves guild house in which you could sell off your ill gotten gains without attracting trouble from the law?


+1
could be a good idea. For sure is a lot of balancing and simulation to do to be sure things work smoothly

Goblin Squad Member

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One thing I think could also be an interesting concept, what if the towns had alignments, based on the alignments of the citizens, and lets say the people defined as government of said town are automatically considered 25% of the population for the purposes of determining a town's alignment.

Now based on alignment some products could be produced cheaper or more expensive, and some building types or effects could be unique. Lets go with the shrine concept. In a LG town it could produce items to craft potions at 25% less then a LE town with an equivalent shrine, and then some alternate options exclusive.

Say an evil town could build slave labor camps, that would cut down on the time to build structures or walls, While a good town could have paladin order guards, that would be stronger then normal defense guards. While a neutral town could create druidic shrines that would cause thorns to appear on the city walls damaging attackers trying to damage them.

Of course the long/short term benefit of these could vary, as a city may shift in alignment, in which case the benefits would change and some of the options will cease to function if a city's alignment shifts (involving either the majority of the population has an alignment shift, or a massive number of people leaving and new arriving), but assuming alignment is based in a way that someone's individual alignment isn't going to change at the drop of a hat, I'd imagine a large community's average alignment would not regularly shift. (Possibly using the benefits of these buildings would even add to the alignment, Using the benefits of slave labor would make you more evil, crafting discounted healing potions would make you more good.)

Also alignment should only be based on registered citizens, which are approved or denied by government officials, Peddlers or merchants from other cities will not apply, and traveling merchants may do just that, go into an evil town, buy whatever is cheaper there, and transport them to good towns buy healing potions etc...

Note I'm not saying everything should be based on alignment, there should be mixtures of alignment and what was upgraded/built etc... But possibly some buildings that are either only workable based on alignment, or cause a shift in alignment if built. (For instance the slave camp could be built by a lawful good town, but the creator and anyone who uses the slave labor bonus (which should be optional), will start to shift in alignment.

Goblin Squad Member

I like your ideas Onishi, and I feel the need to express that the Pathfinder Online that I am imagining in my head is pretty frick fracking awesome.


I'm not a real fan of alignments, that said, I don't like the idea of city alignment, since I think it should be the other way around: you build that building so you are that way.
Let say I fill the city with guars and courthouses, that makes the city legal, temples of asmodeos and we go with evil.
Another thing: in a big city with cult freedom you should be able to build an evil temple, and still being "good" or "neutral". If evil temples spawn like rabbits you shift to evil.
But I'm fine with the concept "good" temple gives this, "bad" temple gives that.

Goblin Squad Member

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Great stuff, JMecha. We are definitely interested in players building up the towns.


While people are invoking the classic Warcraft RTS games, part of me is more inclined to think of the building upgrade system from Fat Princess, with less of an emphasis of having to be the commoner gathering the wood and metal and similar resources, and more being the hero who gathers up the commoners and experts and guides them/guards them on the way to their destination, possibly using one's strength/magic/divine gifts/loose sealing wax to assist where able.

Goblin Squad Member

TheAntiElite wrote:
While people are invoking the classic Warcraft RTS games, part of me is more inclined to think of the building upgrade system from Fat Princess, with less of an emphasis of having to be the commoner gathering the wood and metal and similar resources, and more being the hero who gathers up the commoners and experts and guides them/guards them on the way to their destination, possibly using one's strength/magic/divine gifts/loose sealing wax to assist where able.

I agree in that I do not want to play the lumberjack that logs in to see how many trees I can cut down so someone's master of the wheel barrel character can see how many units of wood he or she can carry back to town. Though resource gathering needs to be on a grand scale I would imagine to turn a field into a hamlet and then into a city eventually. How such will be handled by the game designers I have no idea. Perhaps for every arbitrary number of PC's that make up a community, said community has access to an arbitrary number of peasants that can be given orders by the Community Leader?

Maybe the unskilled peasants could be used to slowly grind away at gathering stones from the quarry, or wood from the Forrest which will allow a community access to such basic resources, but adventurers and explores would be needed to find rare materials like Iron Wood or Admantine that are needed for higher end buildings, faculties, and equipment.

Let's say city A wants to build a Pigwartz School of Magic, and to do so they need the people with the skills to do such in addition to X amount of stone and wood, as well as 100 rare tomes, 200 eyes of newt, and at least 50 crystal balls. The Peasant Force can get the wood and stone, and the Leader of the Community may post a reward for any units of the rare materials needed, so the adventurer sorts have a way of helping Town A while getting paid for going out and questing for Newt Eyes.

Goblin Squad Member

TheAntiElite wrote:
While people are invoking the classic Warcraft RTS games, part of me is more inclined to think of the building upgrade system from Fat Princess, with less of an emphasis of having to be the commoner gathering the wood and metal and similar resources, and more being the hero who gathers up the commoners and experts and guides them/guards them on the way to their destination, possibly using one's strength/magic/divine gifts/loose sealing wax to assist where able.

While I agree I think gathering grunts and controlling small groups of people is a bit more difficult to implement then having a few hero's run out and gather it. Escorting a bunch of commoners across the woods to a resource gathering point, I don't see as much more less tedious then walking across the woods to gather it yourself.

Goblin Squad Member

This idea of peasant labor forces also has me thinking that should Town A and Town B go to war, or at least be competing for resources.....hiring murders to go out and try and kill the other town's work force to slow down production maybe an option, or even hiring saboteur characters to do things like light fire to grain silos and what not.

Goblin Squad Member

JMecha wrote:
TheAntiElite wrote:
While people are invoking the classic Warcraft RTS games, part of me is more inclined to think of the building upgrade system from Fat Princess, with less of an emphasis of having to be the commoner gathering the wood and metal and similar resources, and more being the hero who gathers up the commoners and experts and guides them/guards them on the way to their destination, possibly using one's strength/magic/divine gifts/loose sealing wax to assist where able.

I agree in that I do not want to play the lumberjack that logs in to see how many trees I can cut down so someone's master of the wheel barrel character can see how many units of wood he or she can carry back to town. Though resource gathering needs to be on a grand scale I would imagine to turn a field into a hamlet and then into a city eventually. How such will be handled by the game designers I have no idea. Perhaps for every arbitrary number of PC's that make up a community, said community has access to an arbitrary number of peasants that can be given orders by the Community Leader?

Maybe the unskilled peasants could be used to slowly grind away at gathering stones from the quarry, or wood from the Forrest which will allow a community access to such basic resources, but adventurers and explores would be needed to find rare materials like Iron Wood or Admantine that are needed for higher end buildings, faculties, and equipment.

Let's say city A wants to build a Pigwartz School of Magic, and to do so they need the people with the skills to do such in addition to X amount of stone and wood, as well as 100 rare tomes, 200 eyes of newt, and at least 50 crystal balls. The Peasant Force can get the wood and stone, and the Leader of the Community may post a reward for any units of the rare materials needed, so the adventurer sorts have a way of helping Town A while getting paid for going out and questing for Newt Eyes.

Actually that gives ideas, while you can have grunts that gather large quanities of the base materials etc... Perhaps areas of it need to be protected, at random points in the day the forest or quarries near your town could become infested, a large pack of wolves, or a horde of undead move in, and the automatic gathering stops (or perhaps your quanity of workers diminishes as they are slowly picked off in some cases) until the town's heros clear them out to become safe.

Perhaps some diviners etc... granting missions warning of approaching or currently present dangers to workers.


Onishi wrote:
TheAntiElite wrote:
While people are invoking the classic Warcraft RTS games, part of me is more inclined to think of the building upgrade system from Fat Princess, with less of an emphasis of having to be the commoner gathering the wood and metal and similar resources, and more being the hero who gathers up the commoners and experts and guides them/guards them on the way to their destination, possibly using one's strength/magic/divine gifts/loose sealing wax to assist where able.
While I agree I think gathering grunts and controlling small groups of people is a bit more difficult to implement then having a few hero's run out and gather it. Escorting a bunch of commoners across the woods to a resource gathering point, I don't see as much more less tedious then walking across the woods to gather it yourself.

Your following point addresses the concept exactly as I was going to advise.

Also, I think that, in a roundabout way, the idea would work in a manner similar to the other thread that suggested that manpower might be seen as a consumable resource, and a finite one at that, so that people might want, for example, to cooperatively invest shared resources that might not guarantee immense profit, but might make life better for everyone - if reputation gains could be spent as influence on building constructions, for example, people working on independent projects would see time being taken up as the finite workers work on every project in some semblance of rotation, making use of the persistent world time to allow for work crews to divide up work based on whatever behind-the-scenes calculations for prioritization and urgency are utilized, to the extent that they can; but multiple people investing in the same project, perhaps posted like the quest boards might be in an inn/tavern/crossroad, would result in changing the priority of the work orders, pace of progress made per day on respective projects due to not having to run from site to site to get some work done, and the like.

Plus, while some (okay, most) people hate escort quests, they're certainly more dramatic when done right than merely indulging in 'click X to harvest wood and deliver back to the carpenter'. Save that for more difficult-to-procure materials that would actually require the adventurers - but having gruntwork of mook-guarding nature can be entertaining, especially if it's something of a random event that could, and would, impact the amount of success that a gathering group has. No guard, no gather, which means those alchemist shops and smithies are going to have construction/productions slowed, which means that some goods might not be as available as normal.

Goblinworks Founder

JMecha wrote:

In another thread I mentioned an idea I had that was inspired by the old school War Craft Real Time Strategy games and I thought I would give this idea it's own thread for discussion.

.....

I love the Idea JMecha. Truth be told ever since I played Age of Conan back in 2008 my friends and I have been saying how great it would be if an MMO had features like Warcraft or Age of Empires base building and resource management, but with the third person feel of a regular fantasy MMO.

Goblin Squad Member

I have no idea how such systems as above could be implemented, but I have more fuel for the fire.

I think it would be really cool if different variations of the same building / facility could be created, with each having a very distinct look.

For Example:

Dwarven Homes are far more durable then most but require a lot more stone then other houses as well as an engineer with an investment in the Dwarven Architecture Skill.

Goblinworks Founder

On a side note, maybe a leadership skill would help a little with NPC peons to help mine and harvest as well. They would be useless at combat but could help a player harvester with additional carrying capacity or help construction times.

Building a Camp (lumber, mine, quarry etc) combined with the leadership skill could attract "followers" in a similar way that building a barracks in a player city might attract basic henchmen. They could aid against solo player killers as well, not so much in combat, but just by being self aware. This idea might stray too far from Goblinworks vision of player run world, but in my opinion if it were done right, could be more of an aid much like a combat or mining drone in EvE.


Since I love strategic/building games I love the idea. My question is not ti criticize in a bad way.
In this way there will be people playing "sim city" and others playing "wow", other than A-type gives quests to B-type. What other interaction should they have? do players A-type even have a body? what for?


Simon Hayes wrote:

Since I love strategic/building games I love the idea. My question is not ti criticize in a bad way.

In this way there will be people playing "sim city" and others playing "wow", other than A-type gives quests to B-type. What other interaction should they have? do players A-type even have a body? what for?

Honestly, I think both levels of interaction should be possible, with the emphasis being on the player's choices - if they want to be more of the planner, let them do so and gain benefits accordingly. If they want to be the one who goes and does stuff, reward accordingly.

A good comparison, though of a completely different genre, was the game Allegiance for PC - you could be a pilot sort, if you were ace at it, or be a gunner if you had better aim than most, or be the person who dispatches teams to locations for mission purposes, so that automated fights could happen in the background while gaining territory, but those fights could in turn be impacted by whether or not players jumped in or not.

In a similar way, there might be a sort of 'lead-in' series of quests/requirements; gain reputation of X amount, do X amount of services for the community, invest Y amount of wealth into the town/community/city to show commitment, and then on completion you too can be on the council and help plan things and/or invest in buildings and businesses for yourself, which means being able to either send commoners to go do gathering for projects or being able to post bounties for materials for players to gather if you don't want to do it yourself, and so on and so forth etc. etc.

Those with no interest in such levels of civil service could outright ignore such quest chains.


I like the ideas I've read here, and I would like to add the possibility of race centric towns that would neutral or tied to the generic alignment of the particular race. Birds of a feather and all that... It would be nice if a town would take on the characteristics of its majority race (this would probably happen naturally within the course of the development). I am thinking of NPC towns.

Goblin Squad Member

Melthien wrote:
I like the ideas I've read here, and I would like to add the possibility of race centric towns that would neutral or tied to the generic alignment of the particular race. Birds of a feather and all that... It would be nice if a town would take on the characteristics of its majority race (this would probably happen naturally within the course of the development). I am thinking of NPC towns.

It would be interesting, In the event that player towns were stocked with NPCs (grunts, builders, guards etc...), the location of the towns could also effect the races and design of the area. Say if you built in a rocky mountain area near mines, You'd wind up with a dwarven town with stone buildings, if you tried to build in the middle of a forest, you'd get a treetop village with mostly elven NPCs.


Onishi wrote:
Melthien wrote:
I like the ideas I've read here, and I would like to add the possibility of race centric towns that would neutral or tied to the generic alignment of the particular race. Birds of a feather and all that... It would be nice if a town would take on the characteristics of its majority race (this would probably happen naturally within the course of the development). I am thinking of NPC towns.
It would be interesting, In the event that player towns were stocked with NPCs (grunts, builders, guards etc...), the location of the towns could also effect the races and design of the area. Say if you built in a rocky mountain area near mines, You'd wind up with a dwarven town with stone buildings, if you tried to build in the middle of a forest, you'd get a treetop village with mostly elven NPCs.

Exactly! Perhaps the design could change within a majority NPC race and location... Humans would adapt their designs based on location as well, as would any other race. I realize that would be an interesting algorithm but it would be a much more "alive" environment to play in than any non-sandbox game.


I know I keep coming back to this idea, but with the idea of buildings being influenced by NPCs, I really, REALLY hope the idea of commoners, experts, and similar NPC sorts as a semi-finite limited resource that increases over time but more typically requires recruiting/enticing immigration from other regions becomes more important, as much for helping decide one's choice in locations for building as giving incentive to increase building types (Why, yes, there's a need for more taverns, we're trying to increase our stonemason quotas and we need more dwarves!). While I admit that the idea puts forth the potential for griefers indulging in peon-slaughter to keep people from being able to build, develop, and the like, it would give greater investiture for the players to work together, since without those lowly workers they have to do the work themselves, which takes time from adventuring after all!

Goblin Squad Member

TheAntiElite wrote:
I know I keep coming back to this idea, but with the idea of buildings being influenced by NPCs, I really, REALLY hope the idea of commoners, experts, and similar NPC sorts as a semi-finite limited resource that increases over time but more typically requires recruiting/enticing immigration from other regions becomes more important, as much for helping decide one's choice in locations for building as giving incentive to increase building types (Why, yes, there's a need for more taverns, we're trying to increase our stonemason quotas and we need more dwarves!). While I admit that the idea puts forth the potential for griefers indulging in peon-slaughter to keep people from being able to build, develop, and the like, it would give greater investiture for the players to work together, since without those lowly workers they have to do the work themselves, which takes time from adventuring after all!

I'm actually thinking that the majority of NPCs, be more or less invisible extras, with the exception of the guards. I mean face it for a large scale town you are looking at technically having a population ratio of 30 NPCs per 1 PC. When you get 100 players into a town, you are looking at a plausible 3k NPCs, and well no server can handle that many actual characters, and they will most likely just be listed down as numbers. I could see actual effects of buildings involving attracting or possibly even removing NPCs if planned poorly, (say you put a metal processing plant next door to a residence, noise complaints etc... will cause mass exedous). I still like the idea of possibly a slave camp type building, that both veers the alignment of those who use it, and create an extra dynamic in things, (workers that work regardless of moral with 1/8th the cost (well the cost goes to the actual city treasury rather then vanishing), but at consequences of eliminating the option to build good aligned shrines.

But yeah as you were also saying Specific attractions for specific NPCs would also be interesting. If shrines could be built based on specific dieties, and as a result would be more likely to draw members in that would be likely to stay. Taxes could also become a factor, NPCs could pay small portions of taxes that go up based on the population, but higher taxes also means less happy folks, greater chance of leaving etc... These taxes would be put into building maintenance, which would go back into hiring the same NPCs to manage the town.

It looks like we are coming down to a few main categories of buildings

1. Base material production
2. Exotic material production
3. Moral boosting (taverns etc...)
4. Crafting
5. Shrines (sell items for crafting potions, as well as help with citizen moral.
6. Defense (NPC guards, city gates/walls, archers etc...)


If you are looking for some idea about which building, rewards and such, Civilization is a good start. The whole algorithm is quite complex but its basis are quite simple.


Onishi wrote:
I'm actually thinking that the majority of NPCs, be more or less invisible extras, with the exception of the guards. I mean face it for a large scale town you are looking at technically having a population ratio of 30 NPCs per 1 PC. When you get 100 players into a town, you are looking at a plausible 3k NPCs, and well no server can handle that many actual characters, and they will most likely just be listed down as numbers. I could see actual effects of buildings involving attracting or possibly even removing NPCs if planned poorly, (say you put a metal processing plant next door to a residence, noise complaints etc... will cause mass exedous). I still like the idea of possibly a slave camp type building, that both veers the alignment of those who use it, and create an extra dynamic in things, (workers that work regardless of moral with 1/8th the cost (well the cost goes to the actual city treasury rather then vanishing), but at consequences of eliminating the option to build good aligned shrines.

These, too, are good; however, my plan is not for all of the populace to necessarily be visible and rendered at all times. I'd rather population be a part of the bells and whistles of numbers and statistics that are visible at any given time, but also provide the soft limit of what amount of work can be done at any given time that does not require specific skill sets.

Onishi wrote:
But yeah as you were also saying Specific attractions for specific NPCs would also be interesting. If shrines could be built based on specific dieties, and as a result would be more likely to draw members in that would be likely to stay. Taxes could also become a factor, NPCs could pay small portions of taxes that go up based on the population, but higher taxes also means less happy folks, greater chance of leaving etc... These taxes would be put into building maintenance, which would go back into hiring the same NPCs to manage the town.

Taxes would become an issue for those that make their way up the proverbial totem pole, to positions of conciliar significance. Upkeep would certainly be cheaper than rebuilding, given circumstances, but I don't think we're quite shooting for SimCity levels of civic planning. Taxes and tithes would be appropriate, though I'm not entirely sure about their implementation.

Onishi wrote:

It looks like we are coming down to a few main categories of buildings

1. Base material production
2. Exotic material production
3. Moral boosting (taverns etc...)
4. Crafting
5. Shrines (sell items for crafting potions, as well as help with citizen moral.
6. Defense (NPC guards, city gates/walls, archers etc...)

I was looking at the types as they show up in the Kingmaker section loosely as follows;

1. Goods.
2. Services.
3. Residency.
4. Fortifications.

Now, bearing in mind that there's overlap amongst the categories, this means that a mill for grain working is a services location that might also sell goods (food makings), it would fall more into services as it would strike me as being more geared towards providing for the commoners, and serve as an attractant for immigrants. A bakery, by contrast, is certainly far more about the goods, even if you could bring materials to them and use their services to provide goods. A tavern covers goods, services, and residency. Guard towers are both residency and fortification.

The main incentive for these classifications is to reduce their descriptive flavor, which I love mind you, down to a simple numerically traceable modifiers positively or negatively. Do you have a location that supplies X goods? If yes, +1. If not, 0. If not and needed, -1. Add up all the results, and you have the effective absolute appeal number to determine if people immigrate or emigrate.


Onishi wrote:
TheAntiElite wrote:
I know I keep coming back to this idea, but with the idea of buildings being influenced by NPCs, I really, REALLY hope the idea of commoners, experts, and similar NPC sorts as a semi-finite limited resource that increases over time but more typically requires recruiting/enticing immigration from other regions becomes more important, as much for helping decide one's choice in locations for building as giving incentive to increase building types (Why, yes, there's a need for more taverns, we're trying to increase our stonemason quotas and we need more dwarves!). While I admit that the idea puts forth the potential for griefers indulging in peon-slaughter to keep people from being able to build, develop, and the like, it would give greater investiture for the players to work together, since without those lowly workers they have to do the work themselves, which takes time from adventuring after all!

I'm actually thinking that the majority of NPCs, be more or less invisible extras, with the exception of the guards. I mean face it for a large scale town you are looking at technically having a population ratio of 30 NPCs per 1 PC. When you get 100 players into a town, you are looking at a plausible 3k NPCs, and well no server can handle that many actual characters, and they will most likely just be listed down as numbers. I could see actual effects of buildings involving attracting or possibly even removing NPCs if planned poorly, (say you put a metal processing plant next door to a residence, noise complaints etc... will cause mass exedous). I still like the idea of possibly a slave camp type building, that both veers the alignment of those who use it, and create an extra dynamic in things, (workers that work regardless of moral with 1/8th the cost (well the cost goes to the actual city treasury rather then vanishing), but at consequences of eliminating the option to build good aligned shrines.

But yeah as you were also saying Specific attractions for specific NPCs would also be...

Somehow this printing twice? Anyway, almost all of this would be handled within the program and be invisible to a player. In fact most would happen without a majority of the players knowing why or how, apply "fog of war" to economics or civics. But I do believe that the elders, council members, advisors, etc... would be privy to such mechanics and make the decisions effecting city development, so that a majority of players who would not be interested in such activity would not be bothered with even the interface.

As a player I would want to experience a dynamic environment where cities, towns change in size and style (older buildings stay the same unless upgraded), where I am free to decide how I would like to make a living be it in politician, merchant, soldier, mercenary, highwayman, etc... and see my effect on my environment. If I attack a competitive town and attack the granary in the hopes of slowing down the growth, then I would like to see a burned out husk of a granary until the town rebuilds it. If I buy a plot within the city walls there will probably already be a building there that I can change the sign to "Melthein's Tavern" and then rent rooms and sell info. And then later I could upgrade said building to include a third floor with more room for rent, etc...

Everything else is interesting to me as a designer, but as a player I don't want to worry about too much logistics not associated with my profession.


An idea that popped in my mind answering another post.
What about a player that sets up a charismatic goblin, will he be able to raise a tribe?
Concede me that for a moment, what if goblins were unable to have things like harvesters and such? they will need to raid human outpost to gather the resources.
Well maybe they are bound to be doomed but maybe is a fun way to play.

Goblin Squad Member

Simon Hayes wrote:

An idea that popped in my mind answering another post.

What about a player that sets up a charismatic goblin, will he be able to raise a tribe?
Concede me that for a moment, what if goblins were unable to have things like harvesters and such? they will need to raid human outpost to gather the resources.
Well maybe they are bound to be doomed but maybe is a fun way to play.

Well there's nothing in the nature of a goblin that makes them unable to raise graineries. Though I would say it is unlikely we will see evil races in the early running of the game

Goblin Squad Member

If the griefers played goblin tribe characters, it would make sense to allow them Leet speak names.

For Example:

Gank the Goblin

Ganx the Goblin

Chief Usux

CillzUzz the Goblin

Goblin Squad Member

Onishi wrote:


Well there's nothing in the nature of a goblin that makes them unable to raise graineries. Though I would say it is unlikely we will see evil races in the early running of the game

I agree that in theory Goblins could civilize, but if they are played by griefers who are only interested in ganking.....I think they will create communities of disposable goblin characters that they will throw en mass at other towns and characters.....much like a Pathfinder Goblin Tribe would.

Goblins traditional only have nice things if they have looted them, and those nice things never get taken care of and eventually break, and goblins traditionally only attack when they believe they have the numbers and strength they need to dominate the battle.

((I am not sold on this idea, but it is funny in my head to imagine this))


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Goblin-ing is the new trolling?

SIGN ME UP.

Sort of an overt 'secret mode' - make a name that's against policy, end up a goblin. With the name modified enough to fit.

Omghax, Lawlmount, and Uberdood attempting to raid town would make for much mirth.


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The following are my thoughts on what has already been said. I don’t have much time to write this so forgive me if I do not quote anyone directly...

FIRST
thanks JMecha for giving this topic a discussion of its own. It was getting lost in the “Crafting” thread.

MAKING BUILDINGS SUPPORT CRAFTING
If there is any idea which should be taken from Blizzard and put into PFO it is from the original Warcraft games it is that making buildings support the economy of the town and determine the types of goods that the town can produce. I have been a major supporter in other threads to have player-created buildings. But, I think that this is the key element which was missing from my arguments. Rather than looking pretty and adding to the landscape, buildings can now be a vital part of game mechanics, economy, RP, and factions – buildings that support crafting and community growth ties everything together – if the designers can make it work.

NPC Laborers
Like many, I also do not want to take on the role of a grunt when I log on to play PFO. I would rather play a city planner or architect. Therefore, I like the idea of NPC laborers. I think that leadership is a perfect way to support this function. However, mechanics wise, I think it should function as a skill rather than a feat – a subset to diplomacy? For one, I would like to be able to control at least a small number of NPCs right after the in-game tutorial (I assume there will be something on that line).
I don’t think these laborers should be called “slaves” nor do I think that slavery should be a viable mechanic in PFO. While not being Politically Correct in the slightest, it also does not fit the feel of the setting. In the River Kingdoms, slavery is outlawed. Slavers are allowed to travel through but they may not practice their trade or increase their numbers while in the River Kingdoms. Doing so is punishable by death. This does give a nice enemy NPC faction and ongoing quest though – say a community’s NPC population was being stolen by slavers – the community then would have to rally together to stop the enemy slavers.
I think that NPC laborers should receive some type of wage from the PC who controls said NPC. Heck, there could even be PC controlled labor unions…lol.

More to say but out of time.

Goblinworks Founder

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LibraryRPGamer wrote:

The following are my thoughts on what has already been said. I don’t have much time to write this so forgive me if I do not quote anyone directly...

FIRST
thanks JMecha for giving this topic a discussion of its own. It was getting lost in the “Crafting” thread.

MAKING BUILDINGS SUPPORT CRAFTING
If there is any idea which should be taken from Blizzard and put into PFO it is from the original Warcraft games it is that making buildings support the economy of the town and determine the types of goods that the town can produce. I have been a major supporter in other threads to have player-created buildings. But, I think that this is the key element which was missing from my arguments. Rather than looking pretty and adding to the landscape, buildings can now be a vital part of game mechanics, economy, RP, and factions – buildings that support crafting and community growth ties everything together – if the designers can make it work.

NPC Laborers
Like many, I also do not want to take on the role of a grunt when I log on to play PFO. I would rather play a city planner or architect. Therefore, I like the idea of NPC laborers. I think that leadership is a perfect way to support this function. However, mechanics wise, I think it should function as a skill rather than a feat – a subset to diplomacy? For one, I would like to be able to control at least a small number of NPCs right after the in-game tutorial (I assume there will be something on that line).
I don’t think these laborers should be called “slaves” nor do I think that slavery should be a viable mechanic in PFO. While not being Politically Correct in the slightest, it also does not fit the feel of the setting. In the River Kingdoms, slavery is outlawed. Slavers are allowed to travel through but they may not practice their trade or increase their numbers while in the River Kingdoms. Doing so is punishable by death. This does give a nice enemy NPC faction and ongoing quest though – say a community’s NPC population was...

I think we are all on the same page here.

NPC Henchmen
I am definitely in favor of a leadership or diplomacy skill set that directly involves the employment of NPC laborers, henchmen or servants as hired help (not slavery). I think it also captures the essence of the pen and paper games when a player would reach a certain level they could attract followers. This would merely be an MMO interpretation of this concept. When used in conjunction with base building it only makes more sense.

Barracks - this enables you to recruit NPC guards to patrol the streets.
Bank - this enables you to recruit bank tellers to handle the money and the fee's and charges for protecting that money.
Sawmill - This enables you to recruit lumberjacks to make the process more efficient.
Watchtower - Henchman can be recruited as lookouts and patrolman.
Mine/Quarry - Laborers help with the mining
Teamsters warehouse - Teamsters can be hired to cart goods back and forth from mines, quarries, mills or farms.
Farm - Laborers for hire to help with harvesting.
Mill - Laborers to help with the process of converting grain to flour.

The leadership skill might not be needed, but would be highly desired. Without it, the player would merely have the building and would have to do all of the work themselves. But with Leadership, it not only makes the process smoother but could also produce a better outcome. I've only listed a few of the buildings that could be possible, I can think of plenty more that would relate to specific crafts.

There could even be alternative ideas like building a Thieves guild within a city that could act as loan shark and protection racket whilst also producing a small income from pickpocket and burglary. A Thieves guild would have an upkeep cost also, like providing bribes to authorities that allow them to operate outside the law.

Edit: Buildings such as Teamsters warehouse should also have their own usage beyond just being NPC hiring points. A player should be able to buy a wagon or cart if they prefer to do all of the work themselves and it should be cheaper for the player in the long run to do it as such. Having NPC's available to do the carting would be for those that do not want or cannot afford to do it all themselves. This could translate to other buildings like Forges, Workshops, Smiths and so on.


PCs laborers are a great idea. But, where do NPCs come from?

I suggest that there should be a “Homeland” function within the in-game character sheet. This optional and changeable RP option would happen in-game – not during character creation - and have two effects.

First - selecting a “homeland” would allow a player to build buildings within city walls, pay taxes, and participate in government activities and city councils and other crafting or RP benefits. Furthermore, as more players choose the same “homeland” that city or town would have better options and be able to construct better forges, build bigger mines and quarries, larger docks, a longer city wall. Basically, this mimics the RL relationship between higher population and greater opportunity for success.

Second – as PCs claim and denounce their homelands, the number of NPC laborers/workers which populate that city or town also changes. This would be based on some sort of algorithm. So, a city/town that is a homeland to 200 PCs would have fewer NPCs to control than that of a city/town that is a homeland of 2000 PCs. As PCs leave a city and denounce their “homeland” the NPC population of that city would fall. The following is a general idea of what I am talking about:
<10 PCs = 0 NPCs
10 PCs = 1 NPC
100 PCs = 10 NPCs
1000 PCs = 100 NPCs
…and so forth

Sczarni Goblin Squad Member

Who here remembers Ultima Online? The small creep of civilization slowly spreading until it was forced to stop. Then the stealing of titles and keys. Finally, when players started leaving, abandoned structures littering the landscape. I had a castle and 5 or 6 small buildings scattered about when I quit the game and they just took up space.


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Thomas LeBlanc wrote:
Who here remembers Ultima Online? The small creep of civilization slowly spreading until it was forced to stop. Then the stealing of titles and keys. Finally, when players started leaving, abandoned structures littering the landscape. I had a castle and 5 or 6 small buildings scattered about when I quit the game and they just took up space.

So translate this to PFO.

A bunch of players get together to build a town. The town becomes abandoned. waisted space? No. Monster NPCs can take over the abandoned town and BOOM instant above-ground dungeon - easy for developers. Or, Players who are Monster Races can take control and add on to what was already there and make it their own.

Goblinworks Founder

LibraryRPGamer wrote:

So translate this to PFO.

A bunch of players get together to build a town. The town becomes abandoned. waisted space? No. Monster NPCs can take over the abandoned town and BOOM instant above-ground dungeon - easy for developers. Or, Players who are Monster Races can take control and add on to what was already there and make it their own.

^This exactly :D

I hope that there is an upkeep cost for player buildings. Buildings that are not kept in a livable condition attract "Unsavory" things as they slowly decay over time. That abandoned Castle that Thomas described, with the five or six smaller buildings would make the idea ruin to house some new PvE content. Or to use a recent buzzword, "Dynamic" content.

Say a player owns a house within a large cityscape and cannot afford the upkeep. The house slowly becomes disheveled with each passing week that the upkeep is not payed. It might first attract rats, then it might attract vagrants or beggars followed by giant rats, eventually it would either collapse on itself or a fire might break out and burn it to the ground.


This is leading exactly where I was hoping, because I would support this combined with the use of 'unaffiliated' NPC citizenry, not necessarily rendered at all times to save on server load, to have the population serve as a semi-finite resource so that pure gold value would not be enough to get people whatever they wanted, and social skills would be viable as a modifier for acquiring those resources. I could especially see where some of the Kingmaker content would lean towards making certain portions of the populace more inclined towards cooperation. Alchemist shops would work great for alchemists, to the point where I think any creation of a shop by a non-alchemist might be enough to entice them into the area, if not making it possible for such classes to originate in the region. Shrines, Cathedrals, and Temples might, in aggregate, reduce the cost of services provided by the clergy, in addition to making better supplies available for divine workers. The Witch's Hut would make a natural congregation point for Coven-seekers, while having an actual graveyard might serve as providing a place for not only respawning, but where allies could retrieve the bodies of the fallen, instead of having to drag it back from the field to get it to the temple.

Goblin Squad Member

Playing a lumberjack sounds terribly boring, doesn't it...?

But what if lumberjacking was a bubble-popping minigame, in which reaching level 50 permanently felled a tree and gave an achievement? What if only Druid/City-Managers could replant new groves of trees and grow them to size suitable for cutting again?

What if every resource gather from skinning/tanning to mining to lumberjacking to fishing to smithing to magic-item-creation was a resource intensive minigame with optional 'less good but skip the minigame' settings?

Goblinworks Founder

Purplefixer wrote:

Playing a lumberjack sounds terribly boring, doesn't it...?

But what if lumberjacking was a bubble-popping minigame, in which reaching level 50 permanently felled a tree and gave an achievement? What if only Druid/City-Managers could replant new groves of trees and grow them to size suitable for cutting again?

What if every resource gather from skinning/tanning to mining to lumberjacking to fishing to smithing to magic-item-creation was a resource intensive minigame with optional 'less good but skip the minigame' settings?

I played a pure harvester in Age of Conan for about 9 months out of the 18 months I played it. I never found chopping down trees boring when I could pick cotton, smash rock and mine silver and copper in the same session.

It was enjoyable for two reasons. First reason is that every time you hit a node or tree there was a percentage chance you would have a random encounter. Second reason was because it was free for all PvP, you would occasionally see a player or two while you were harvesting or if you were lucky one would pop out of stealth as you were harvesting. In the early days of the game (Before they re-itemized it to WoW standards) you could actually do what I called "Reverse Gank" a PK. As a Harvester you tend to run into trouble more often than your average opportunist player killer, because of this you tend to know their tricks and when to expect them. In any case, I love harvesting in the right environment.


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I imagine 'Lumberjack' (defined as one who cuts trees for sale) would be a 'low level job' for those without enough accumulated skill ranks to move beyond just cutting and selling the timber. As ranks accumulated, said character would move on to additional aspects as well, such as turning that timber into cut lumber (from boards, to dowels, etc)

Furthermore, I'd expect a Lumberjack to be decent in a fight. The guy probably wouldn't have the skill space for armor or a broad spectrum of weaponry, but he should be pretty good with an axe/his fists (the guy has to defend himself from animals/minor monsters that might decide to eat him, and when have you ever heard of a lumberjack that wasn't someone you wanted on your side in a brawl?)

Goblin Squad Member

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Like the ideas but being good in a fight is actually what you might need to be after you build up your town.

RD mentioned that here will be "Wars" for territory but it remains to be seen what effect these wars will have.

But nothing will be more frustrating to introduce an eco/building MMO and mix it with an "I take your stuff because I can" MMO (see Shadowbane).

So maybe there could be an occupation mechanic where your town and surroundig area can be conquered by another kingdom which would mean that you still owned your houses/buisness but wouldn't be able to attack your newfound "friends" (except if you wanted to go the route of banditry) as you now belonged to the same faction.

This would make these exciting features possible AND worthwhile because you did not have to fear the loss of your "lifelong" work.

Goblinworks Founder

MicMan wrote:


So maybe there could be an occupation mechanic where your town and surroundig area can be conquered by another kingdom which would mean that you still owned your houses/buisness but wouldn't be able to attack your newfound "friends" (except if you wanted to go the route of banditry) as you now belonged to the same faction.

+5

Occupation mechanic is a much lesser evil than losing it forever.

Goblin Squad Member

But is there a means by which to make such occupation permanent? I know I'd like to be able to legitimately conquer the Sons of Caylean...


To the last point, I'm wondering if there could be something like in the civ games where borders are influenced by culture rather than military power?


Kingmaker Building List:

Alchemist
Exotic
Craftsman
Library
Barracks
Granary
Luxury Store
Black Market
Graveyard
Magic Shop
Pier
Brewery
Herbalist
Mansion
Shop
Brothel
House
Mill
Shrine
Caster's Tower
Inn
Monument
Smith
Dump
Jail
Park
Stable
Tannery
Tavern
Tradesman
Tenement 
Watchtower
Academy
Garrison 
Guildhall
Noble Villa
Theater
Market
Temple
Town Hall
Arena 
Castle 
Cathedral 
Waterfront

Grrr, Evernote, you need to do better at pasting...

Anyway, the above list is all the buildings in the Kingmaker Player's Guide. I know KM stuff won't necessarily rule how this all plays out, but I think it's a pretty solid idea of the kinds of buildings that should be included. The trick is figuring out the interplay of each, and how to stylize each for each culture.

I'm curious, how does something like an Inn work in an MMO if there is no mechanical need to rest or eat? I would love to run one in game that acts as a cultural center for bard types who want to show off their storytelling or poetic chops in game.

Which brings up the mini game I'd like to see: music making! Probably too resource intensive, but it'd be great for there to be a thing that players could use in a given environment to create a cultural impact. I know some folks would come in and play terrible cacophonous sounds just to be annoying, but it would be fun to be able to go into a worship space within the game to hear someone's morning liturgy to Sarenrae. Is that in any way possible, or am I out of luck?


Weynolt wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

Grrr, Evernote, you need to do better at pasting...

Anyway, the above list is all the buildings in the Kingmaker Player's Guide. I know KM stuff won't necessarily rule how this all plays out, but I think it's a pretty solid idea of the kinds of buildings that should be included. The trick is figuring out the interplay of each, and how to stylize each for each culture.

I'm curious, how does something like an Inn work in an MMO if there is no mechanical need to rest or eat? I would love to run one in game that acts as a cultural center for bard types who want to show off their storytelling or poetic chops in game.

Which brings up the mini game I'd like to see: music making! Probably too resource intensive, but it'd be great for there to be a thing that players could use in a given environment to create a cultural impact. I know some folks would come in and play terrible cacophonous sounds just to be annoying, but it would be fun to be able to go into a worship space within the game to hear someone's morning liturgy to Sarenrae. Is that in any way possible, or am I out of luck?

It got on my everloving nerves in LotRO and that one Korean game whose name just jumped out of my head as I prepared to type it. That said, I wouldn't want to deny the opportunity to others because they might do awesome things with it, though Ren Faire Renditions of Nickelback are likely inevitable. Then again, some might manage to pull off the Vitamin Strings or Apocolyptica effect...

Also, the Building List gives me hope for one of two things - keeping a similar mechanic for purposes of town building where the town's stats are influenced by what's placed, and the idea that building structures will supply not only the passive and active benefits but will supply additional set-pieces and components for quest making that aren't the much-bemoaned 'Gather X Bear Behinds' types...or even some of the quantity gathering variety based on things that are more business specific, such as herbs for the Alchemist Shop that will make limited stock items available in greater quantities. After all, both bars and brothels tend to not want to end the lives of deadbeats - they might get their acts together and be paying customers. That being said, there's the chance that someone who runs up a tab might become subject of a bounty, not for killing, but for simply retrieving the due funds. Heck, one could even pay off said tabs to gain favor...unless the offender is content to mooch off a player's generosity, and thus open the mooch up for targeting of abuse to certain alignment types without causing flagging for antagonistic behavior, due to the debt owed or some such.


Sure, I can imagine it being the sort of thing that can be turned on or off like Voice Chat. Maybe the message boards will have to be the location for musical creations. Maybe there could be a garage band repository of goblin music.

The bounty idea is great. Love the thought of there being an innkeeper with a goon squad to enforce the payment of the tab.

Right, I'd love to see the leader of the town be able to get at the town's "character sheet". Maybe this is the mobile app integration - civic management. It would make the zoning of land in a given area a drag and drop affair, swipe to see benefits to the town, then submit to devs/automated building bot to make it happen. Resources are deducted from the town stockpile, a corrupt mayor could take bribes if people are competting for the same strategic location. Also, by having this as a mobile application, the "mayor"figure doesn't have to be in game to make requests happen.

In the same way, property management also becomes an application, so that the player owning a house or business can access the inventory at home, the upkeep (or not) of the house, running a store inventory (setting prices) or paying (or not!) one's employees. Whether the building is identified with a particular guild. Does it pay taxes to the local authority?

I think thats the mobile or web app side of building up towns that makes sense to me. Not even a game, so much as being able to see what one is in charge of.


Weynolt wrote:
Sure, I can imagine it being the sort of thing that can be turned on or off like Voice Chat. Maybe the message boards will have to be the location for musical creations. Maybe there could be a garage band repository of goblin music.

If 'l33t-tard' names got force-rerolled to goblins like someone else suggested, I'd see this as a burgeoning industry all its own. I daresay goblin 'rap battles' leading to inter-goblin strife during fights for supremacy before a raid on a town wouldn't be out of character.

Weynolt wrote:
The bounty idea is great. Love the thought of there being an innkeeper with a goon squad to enforce the payment of the tab.

Which ties back into the idea of NPCs getting basic interactivity that learns and grows, less as an AI and more as a very clever script that ties into the back-end numbers to generate quests based on results it has observed - it should be possible for someone to run up a tab and bail every time, up until X amount of debt, where they have to pay for drinks/food/pipeweed/'entertainment' up front. There should be consequences of course, from being denied service to being hunted down to collect the bounty to having reputation take a hit as word spreads that the PC is a deadbeat. This threshold should also be impacted by a PC's individual Charisma, and to a lesser extent Intimidate, Bluff, etc. These are all mechanics that some people swear don't carry over well from the tabletop, that I think done right could add a very interesting dynamic to the game.

Weynolt wrote:
Right, I'd love to see the leader of the town be able to get at the town's "character sheet". Maybe this is the mobile app integration - civic management. It would make the zoning of land in a given area a drag and drop affair, swipe to see benefits to the town, then submit to devs/automated building bot to make it happen. Resources are deducted from the town stockpile, a corrupt mayor could take bribes if people are competting for the same strategic location. Also, by having this as a mobile application, the "mayor"figure doesn't have to be in game to make requests happen.

THIS. This, this, a thousand times this.

I'd tie that into having an NPC who functions as one's secretary/lieutenant analog, where one would gain access to the app once one has procured the necessary staff that is the in-game interface. Essentially, while in-game, the player is the point of interaction for such things - outside of game, the secretary-type person would serve as a multifunction toolbox for messaging, venting at the current person in charge, and doing all of the tedious civics gruntwork necessary to keep things going, giving instruction to other NPCs and the like for those who like that sort of thing. Those with no interest? Never have to touch on it.

Weynolt wrote:
In the same way, property management also becomes an application, so that the player owning a house or business can access the inventory at home, the upkeep (or not) of the house, running a store inventory (setting prices) or paying (or not!) one's employees. Whether the building is identified with a particular guild. Does it pay taxes to the local authority?

Which, once again, touches on the need for commoners to be a resource, not simply for purposes of doing manual unskilled labor, but because it would give those with the inclination an incentive to make sure the town they develop has all of the amenities and niceties that would encourage people to immigrate...in addition to supplying another interaction vector that could be considered a challenge to earn, instead of being outright handed to you. One of the tricks to getting to be a successful leader is having Leadership...and then having the people like you enough to want you in charge. Of course, one of the others is to browbeat them into putting you in charge, but there's still other PCs who might object...

Weynolt wrote:
I think thats the mobile or web app side of building up towns that makes sense to me. Not even a game, so much as being able to see what one is in charge of.

Plus, it gives something(s) to do while one's PC is resting, for whatever reasons. I'm all in favor of this. Heck, if the concern is about not having enough impact on the gathering and things along those lines, one could crib from a multitude of flash games out there as half-joking 'Peon Web Interfaces' to improve their rate of gathering et. al.


Lots of good stuff there, TAE. I'm especially digging the idea of having buildings in town that increase the population of NPCs.

I'm looking forward to whatever Blog post addresses the role of NPCs in the game. It seems that theyll clearly have to be somewhat present for there to be basic levels of interaction for new players. I could see an argument existing for "no visible NPCs", as there could be so many pcs in a given area. But I hope it would continue on as an intangible, at least.

Hmm, lunchtime thoughts... More in a while!

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