I think we have varying definitions of the word "Flee". When frightened, I believe the creatures single goal is to get away from the source of it's fear. It can't do that if it casts AMF, the Pit Fiend knows this. Arguements saying "It's the smart thing to do" is moot, the fiend is trying to get away, far away. Not just 30-40 feet. The Frightened condition makes no reference of the creature doing -anything- offensively unless it had absolutely no other choice, therefore thoughts of "use AMF to make it so the Magus can't chase you" is also moot. Thats like saying "I'm frightened, so I just plane shift offensively to get the source of my fear away from me!".
But, I guess thats a difference of opinion. I'm honestly going to stay with my decision on that though, it seems perfectly reasonable, and more adapted to the state of mind that the Pit Fiend is in.
This is enough to satisfy me, so I won't push this point further.
___
As to using Wish, though, I thought I remembered reading discussions regarding whether or not its 'Transport travelers' bullet gets around the dimensional anchor.
Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
If this aspect of Wish can bypass it, you're in trouble. If it can't, then it seems like you've probably got this fight in the bag (assuming the rest of Beastmass doesn't overly drain your resources).
I think the difference between panicked and feared - is that in an enclosed 60x60 room if you are just feared you know there is no escape and thus don't have to keep running.
The ability to fight isn't just if you have no move option - the fact that you aren't in a blind panic means that you don't have to keep running if there is no escape.
That's the entire point of the 'may attack' part.
A pit fiend that is anchored - and is trapped in a room isn't going to just run around like a chicken with it's head cut off - in fact if it tried to run and couldn't get away (assume an open plain without walls but still anchored) after the first attempt and finding that it's speed wasn't fast enough it'd be able to stop and fight as well.
That is the difference between fear and panic - the fact that you can still reason out that there is no escape and suck it up enough to swing\cast\etc.
Unfortunately the pit fiend doesn't get to make the choice on standing and fighting. It MUST flee until the Magus is out of line of sight. It has no choice in the matter until it shakes off the fear effect.
==Aelryinth
What are these beastmass rules I keep seeing?
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nix8?Zen-and-the-Art-of-Monk-Maintenance-A-Gui de
This is the original beastmass.
Unfortunately the pit fiend doesn't get to make the choice on standing and fighting. It MUST flee until the Magus is out of line of sight. It has no choice in the matter until it shakes off the fear effect.
==Aelryinth
Where does it say that exactly?
A frightened creature flees from the source of its fear as best it can. If unable to flee, it may fight. A frightened creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. A frightened creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape.
Frightened is like shaken, except that the creature must flee if possible. Panicked is a more extreme state of fear.
Note the bold - it doesn't say 'if unable to take a move action' it says if unable to flee. A highly intelligent opponent isn't going to run in circles if there is no way to escape - the entire if unable to flee part is predicated on the idea that there is a possibility of it getting away. Once there is nowhere to run that is out of range it is no longer compelled to do so.
Here's the problem I mentioned in the other thread. The pit fiend is a genius. It needs to run and will take the rout with the highest probability.
It will not physically run amchoring prevent movement and any full round action will result in death.
If it can teleport it will. If probability says it cannot teleport it will not even try.
Really wish amf wins the battle.
I think we have varying definitions of the word "Flee". When frightened, I believe the creatures single goal is to get away from the source of it's fear. It can't do that if it casts AMF, the Pit Fiend knows this. Arguements saying "It's the smart thing to do" is moot, the fiend is trying to get away, far away. Not just 30-40 feet. The Frightened condition makes no reference of the creature doing -anything- offensively unless it had absolutely no other choice, therefore thoughts of "use AMF to make it so the Magus can't chase you" is also moot. Thats like saying "I'm frightened, so I just plane shift offensively to get the source of my fear away from me!".
But, I guess thats a difference of opinion. I'm honestly going to stay with my decision on that though, it seems perfectly reasonable, and more adapted to the state of mind that the Pit Fiend is in.
If unable to flee, it may fight.
By the conditions of your trial (if I understand them) there is no "fleeing for good", he also cant flee because you have stopped him from casting teleport and have locked him in 60x60x60 ft room. If this is the case then using rime/enforcer combo you win every encounter automatically. As the opponent just runs around in circles while you kill him.
I dont think you should be able to bank on frighten stopping the Pit Fiend. A well built Kensai can kill a Pit Fiend, just yours has the weakness of a 4 strength and the AMF kind of hurts his combat when you look at that.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I have a situation which is a bit more fair for the Pitfiend.
Upon gateing in Torag windmills the axe of the dwarvish lords clean through the fiend's skull, then he does a reverse spining back tiger kick directly in the centre of the Pitfiend's right and left testicles.
Magus win initiative and does a whole bunch of stuff I don't understand.
The Pitfiend then uses a standard action to die and then uses a move action to die a bit more, a swift to have his essence flee as he is still frightened and a free action to stay dead.
No offense I just think this encounter is giving the magus every advantage possible to the point of being absurd.
|
If there's a single magus that can handle fighting a pit fiend in a AMF, I'd love to see it :)Trivially easy. Any form of dazing instantaneous conjuration which deals damage will do it. With spell perfection it isn't hard to push the DC past where the Pit Fiend has any chance to save and being conjurations they probably wont allow SR.
Can't cast spells in an AMF, not to mention that your to-hit is suffering badly due to not having any gear working, being able to use your arcane pool, and such. But, if you have a build...
|
|
I have a situation which is a bit more fair for the Pitfiend.
Upon gateing in Torag windmills the axe of the dwarvish lords clean through the fiend's skull, then he does a reverse spining back tiger kick directly in the centre of the Pitfiend's right and left testicles.
Magus win initiative and does a whole bunch of stuff I don't understand.
The Pitfiend then uses a standard action to die and then uses a move action to die a bit more, a swift to have his essence flee as he is still frightened and a free action to stay dead.
No offense I just think this encounter is giving the magus every advantage possible to the point of being absurd.
Thankfully, I didn't create the encounter, just following what the original beastmass did.
Having pre-buffs that last 6 hours+ (Due to rod of extend) would honestly a fair thing to say.
Just because he has to run around in circles doesn't mean he isn't still fleeing. 'Not being able to flee' means 'not being able to run away'. If he can run away in circles, that's still running away. It's not like he's pinned in a corner or trapped...he can still put distance between them at all times.
The fact the magus can instantly make up that distance has absolutely no effect on the Pit Fiend's condition. All it does is make him flee more. As a matter of fact, it means the devil now has a new direction to flee in!
Fear can be a very powerful effect, and this is one of the circumstances showing it off.
==Aelryinth
I think he means dazing the Pit Fiend before he has a chance to put that AMF up :)Can't cast spells in an AMF, not to mention that your to-hit is suffering badly due to not having any gear working, being able to use your arcane pool, and such. But, if you have a build...If there's a single magus that can handle fighting a pit fiend in a AMF, I'd love to see it :)Trivially easy. Any form of dazing instantaneous conjuration which deals damage will do it. With spell perfection it isn't hard to push the DC past where the Pit Fiend has any chance to save and being conjurations they probably wont allow SR.You can daze him before or after. AMF does not protect you from the effect of instantaneous conjuration spells. You cannot cast it while inside the AMF so it assumes you do not start inside it. This is much easier to deal with as a full caster as you can simply employ Aordens Spellbane to be immune to AMF.
Your best choice is probably Snowball. You will need Intensified, Dazing, Heighten and ideally Persistent Spell together with Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus o it is very feat intensive but more than doable.
Need the magus to be AMFed? No.
Let's daze lock him a round earlier.Lock gaze, in this case, is better. Sure, has SR, and doesn't do anything in that situation. But then pit fiend would fail most of the time (Fort-Will=6), supposing the same feat chain. One could forget persistent and replace it with piercing.
I have a situation which is a bit more fair for the Pitfiend.
Upon gateing in Torag windmills the axe of the dwarvish lords clean through the fiend's skull, then he does a reverse spining back tiger kick directly in the centre of the Pitfiend's right and left testicles.
Magus win initiative and does a whole bunch of stuff I don't understand.
The Pitfiend then uses a standard action to die and then uses a move action to die a bit more, a swift to have his essence flee as he is still frightened and a free action to stay dead.
No offense I just think this encounter is giving the magus every advantage possible to the point of being absurd.
Thankfully, I didn't create the encounter, just following what the original beastmass did.
Having pre-buffs that last 6 hours+ (Due to rod of extend) would honestly a fair thing to say.
I know, I just don't see the point. I'd like to see this reversed where the Pitfiend is waiting for Kensai wondernuts and see how it goes for him.
This senario makes me want to root for the Pitfiend. ;)
I think he means dazing the Pit Fiend before he has a chance to put that AMF up :)Can't cast spells in an AMF, not to mention that your to-hit is suffering badly due to not having any gear working, being able to use your arcane pool, and such. But, if you have a build...If there's a single magus that can handle fighting a pit fiend in a AMF, I'd love to see it :)Trivially easy. Any form of dazing instantaneous conjuration which deals damage will do it. With spell perfection it isn't hard to push the DC past where the Pit Fiend has any chance to save and being conjurations they probably wont allow SR.You can daze him before or after. AMF does not protect you from the effect of instantaneous conjuration spells. You cannot cast it while inside the AMF so it assumes you do not start inside it. This is much easier to deal with as a full caster as you can simply employ Aordens Spellbane to be immune to AMF.
Your best choice is probably Snowball. You will need Intensified, Dazing, Heighten and ideally Persistent Spell together with Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus o it is very feat intensive but more than doable.
I will note that a Dazing, Intensified, Heightened, Persistent, Spell/Greater spell focus Snowball is ANYTHING but trivially obtainable!!! That's 6 of a character's ten feats!
==Aelryinth
Just because he has to run around in circles doesn't mean he isn't still fleeing. 'Not being able to flee' means 'not being able to run away'. If he can run away in circles, that's still running away. It's not like he's pinned in a corner or trapped...he can still put distance between them at all times.
The fact the magus can instantly make up that distance has absolutely no effect on the Pit Fiend's condition. All it does is make him flee more. As a matter of fact, it means the devil now has a new direction to flee in!
Fear can be a very powerful effect, and this is one of the circumstances showing it off.
==Aelryinth
We'll agree to disagree then - the rules don't say it plays stupid - and if there is no where to run that isn't 'in range' then anything with above average intelligence should be able to stop and fight as if cornered - especially if doing so (such as using wish for AMF) would give it the ability to get away.
|
|
Point is, I was asking for a magus to win -inside- of a AMF. This was in response to "You have a glaring weakness with 4 STR, you'd die in an AMF", point being, any magus would.
@Obelisk
Initiative is a very fair assumption. Even on a 20, the Pit Fiend will still always act second, due to the Kensai +22, and automatically rolling 20 on initiative checks.
|
|
We'll agree to disagree then - the rules don't say it plays stupid - and if there is no where to run that isn't 'in range' then anything with above average intelligence should be able to stop and fight as if cornered - especially if doing so (such as using wish for AMF) would give it the ability to get away.Just because he has to run around in circles doesn't mean he isn't still fleeing. 'Not being able to flee' means 'not being able to run away'. If he can run away in circles, that's still running away. It's not like he's pinned in a corner or trapped...he can still put distance between them at all times.
The fact the magus can instantly make up that distance has absolutely no effect on the Pit Fiend's condition. All it does is make him flee more. As a matter of fact, it means the devil now has a new direction to flee in!
Fear can be a very powerful effect, and this is one of the circumstances showing it off.
==Aelryinth
AMF would not give it the ability to get away, Kensai still has orb cantrips, the Pit Fiend would never get out of range. The ONLY way for the Pit Fiend to get away is either A: You agree that running away physically is OK or B: He plays to teleport out.
At the end of the day though, I've got all the input I needed from this thread, I just need to account for the possibility of AMF, and perhaps be forced to have Lingering Pain. But I guess that isn't too bad. All of the other Beastmass encounters will be trivial.
Thanks guys!
What about the Solar? I think even "One, the Zen Archer" had to take some liberties to win that one.
|
|
All will be revealed... in time :)Just remmeber the next time you set this up that the Pit Fiend has 134,000GP of treasure to spend shoring up his weaknesses and he gets to buff just as much as you do.
See if you can beat THAT.
Maybe in an encounter -not- in beastmass, just going off of what's presented in the Beastmass rules :P. Somebody posted a Beastmass 3, using a 29 HD red dragon with a supped up lair with all the gold spent, and has several bodyguards. Not to mention GM fiat in which the dragon is able to teleport, but you can't... That is an encounter you might be more interested in.
|
|
The problem is the assumptions being made (IE. initiative)Initiative is never an assumption with a kensai.
The kensai never rolls for initiative. Neither do any of the classes capable of matching him.
Question on this: Is there anyone who can beat the Kensai's initiative? I know diviner wizards and shoei get +10 and auto 20's at level 20ish, but if the Kensai's int modifier is above 10 (and they all have the same feats/traits) he'd win initiative. Is there anyone who gets more than a +10 bonus on initiative checks?
Question on this: Is there anyone who can beat the Kensai's initiative? I know diviner wizards and shoei get +10 and auto 20's at level 20ish, but if the Kensai's int modifier is above 10 (and they all have the same feats/traits) he'd win initiative. Is there anyone who gets more than a +10 bonus on initiative checks?The problem is the assumptions being made (IE. initiative)Initiative is never an assumption with a kensai.
The kensai never rolls for initiative. Neither do any of the classes capable of matching him.
Ifrit oracles with Noble Scion: War for Cha to initiative, race trait for +4 Initiative, Reactionary, Improved Initiative, and Moment of Prescience for +20. +20 with Moment, +15 or so with Charisma bonus, +10 from race trait, Reactionary, and Improved Initiative.
Assuming a 9, 10, or 11, they get 54 to 56.
|
|
I don't believe Moment of Prescience adds to initiative, does it? +15 to charisma is a little high unless I'm missing a class ability, I'm capping out at +14 intelligence with old age, tomes, levels, etc...
Excluding reactionary and improved initiative (the kensai gets those too), and they get both dexterity and intelligence to initiative...
So, intelligence counteracts charisma, feats and traits counter each other out, and a Dex higher than +4 counters the Ifrit bonus. Kensai with maxed out intelligence and high dexterity with reactionary and improved initiative still comes out on top, with automatic initiatives of 48?
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Who wins is dependent upon who invested the most resources in initiative. The kensai can get higher than the sohei or diviver, but not cheaply.
Diviners come with a familiar (+4 init). Kensai would have to purchase a familiar.
The outcome, whatever it may be, is not random. Between a given sohie, diviner and kensai the initiative order will always be the same even without beastmass rules.
|
Maybe in an encounter -not- in beastmass, just going off of what's presented in the Beastmass rules :P. Somebody posted a Beastmass 3, using a 29 HD red dragon with a supped up lair with all the gold spent, and has several bodyguards. Not to mention GM fiat in which the dragon is able to teleport, but you can't... That is an encounter you might be more interested in.All will be revealed... in time :)Just remmeber the next time you set this up that the Pit Fiend has 134,000GP of treasure to spend shoring up his weaknesses and he gets to buff just as much as you do.
See if you can beat THAT.
So, what you are saying is the Beastmass challenge ISN'T against a CR20 challenge then. The creatures gear and resources are stripped away dropping his challenge rating by at least 2 points if not more.
I'm beginning to see why everyone laughs at these setups.
Lets stack the challenge as far in the PC's favor as we can and watch the inevitable.
Hmm, I wonder how effective your Kensai would be on the other end of this rigged contest.No gear, no knowledge of what's coming and an opponent who gets to spend 20 levels and half a million gold to take you down.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The part that makes the encounter feel wierd is.. The fight with the Pit Fiend feels like it should be an epic end to some story. Not waiting patiently to kill him in one round.. but i guess that is the game after a certain level.
|
|
@Mojorat
Your entirely right, there should be more to it than a single round, we just cut out the storyline for sheer theory crafting. If I was GM, I'd certainly place a few bodyguards with him, and have the fight in a magical demiplane where ALL damage is halved (after DR), and where save or suck spells cease to function properly as intended, just to prolong and make the fight epic and feel... fullfilling.
Hum...have I missed something or does the attempt to frighten the pitfiend via Enforcer autofail under the rules presented? (DC is 10+20 (hd)+10 (it's wis modifier), your maximum intimidate score is 23 (10 cha ftl) and it's a single check ..and you're smaller than it so you get a -4 penalty.
Result:It's dc 40. Your check 29...and you would fail to intimidate the pitfiend even if you rolled a 20 since skills do not autosuccede.
Bruising Intellect lets him use Int instead of Cha. That's still only a 35, though, so I'm not sure myself.
I think the Pit Fiend will run until it has no possible means of escape, but this is a good FAQ question.
|
|
Bruising Intellect lets him use Int instead of Cha. That's still only a 35, though, so I'm not sure myself.Hum...have I missed something or does the attempt to frighten the pitfiend via Enforcer autofail under the rules presented? (DC is 10+20 (hd)+10 (it's wis modifier), your maximum intimidate score is 23 (10 cha ftl) and it's a single check ..and you're smaller than it so you get a -4 penalty.
Result:It's dc 40. Your check 29...and you would fail to intimidate the pitfiend even if you rolled a 20 since skills do not autosuccede.
14 from intelligence, 3 from trained, 20 ranks, and 4 from crown of conquests, totaling 41.
EDIT: I did miss the smaller penalty, making it not an auto success, but a success on a 3.
|
|
After a mild amount of thought, the real answer is 'actually use it's buff spells in advance' - if you get to it gets to.
So on round 1, the gate opens. At least one created greater undead, one summoned true seeing devil and the pitfiend all enter invisibly, staggered so they can't be hit with one area dispel. The other devil telepathically informs the pitfiend of your position.
From there, things go different ways depending.
If that was the way the original beastmass went, then I would happily plan for that :)
The only buffs I have up are extended buffs that are lasting 6 hours or more (I fixed some money and character issues, but there's another rod of extend in there).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Go ahead and belittle it, it's easier to be a critic anyways :P
Why don't you make an encounter that can be used as a benchmark for characters, Mathwei, instead of criticizing others? If your not willing to, then don't criticize, tis not the point of the thread :P
Fair enough.
However, then general concensus as I see it is that this is a poor way to benchmark a pc.
I personally would create a series of situations that tests a pc in various ways.
Ie: In combat: vs singular powerful foes, multiple less powerful foes, foes with varied defensesand attacks etc.
Out of combat: skill checks, circumventing obstacles, social situations etc. etc.
Then have the player making the pc not know what the challenges are and have them go through it.
|
|
That's somewhat true, though if you give me one character that can beat this challenge, I can give you 50 that can't (all at level 20). So it does add a badge of honor, so to speak, saying that "This character can!" where so many others will have failed. Now, this is not the be all test all challenge, but one to thin the fields of characters that would be pitted up against such a task.
Not having the player know what the challenge is a rather hard thing to accomplish though. I've tried to be fair here, I didn't build the character for Beastmass, but as a general idea of "what a Kensai can be". Going through all this work, though, has certainly opened up my eyes to the strengths and weaknesses of certain abilities (at least in dueling type situations).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That's somewhat true, though if you give me one character that can beat this challenge, I can give you 50 that can't (all at level 20).
I can give you 50 characters that can't succed at a DC 11 knowledge check at level 20. That doesn't mean a DC11 knowledge check is a good measure of power at level 20.
Beastmass is heavily skewed towards certain kinds of characters, primarily due to two factors:
1. It allows nearly unlimited prebuffing for the character but none for the monsters. This is an enormous boon to casters.
2. It removes randomness. This basically removes the glass from the glass cannon.
That isn't to say beastmass isn't enjoyable; it may very well be (have never run it). But it is a very different kind of fun than pathfinder is; there is no adjusting for good/bad luck, there is never a need to have a backup plan etc etc.
It goes from being a tactical game to being a puzzle game. And that's fine of course, but it's not at all the same kind of challenge as an actual game represents.
|
|
Unlimited prebuffing?
The only prebuffing going on here is the sometimes allowed surprise round, and and any buffs a character would walk into a dungeon with (in my case, I only have buffs up that last more than 6 hours). Unlimited prebuffing would let me get a whole bunch of buffs up, like mirror image, invisability, bull's strength, etc... This is kind of standard for any group walking into a unsuspecting dungeon, no?
Unlimited prebuffing?
The only prebuffing going on here is the sometimes allowed surprise round, and and any buffs a character would walk into a dungeon with (in my case, I only have buffs up that last more than 6 hours). Unlimited prebuffing would let me get a whole bunch of buffs up, like mirror image, invisability, bull's strength, etc... This is kind of standard for any group walking into a unsuspecting dungeon, no?
Almost unlimited, I said. It was not directed at your specific character but more the setup itself. You (general you, not you specifically Frodo) can easily have 10+ buffs going in there as a caster, even if you limit yourself to 6h+ buffs (though as far as I know the rules don't set this limit? or did I miss something?)