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... okay, no, you've got the wrong idea about druids, your player has the wrong idea about druids, and this is frankly terrible.
1) Druids are not required to love all living things. There can be neutral evil druids, lawful neutral druids, true neutral druids, chaotic neutral druids, and neutral good druids - only neutral good druids are required to "love all living things" insomuch as any good creature is required to do the same (i.e. respect the life and dignity of sentient creatures).
2) Druids are required to be some form of neutral, but this one is repeatedly committing terribly evil acts for no purpose other than selfish desire, resulting in a chaotic evil alignment.
So, yes, the druid falls, but not for the reasons you're suggesting.
To return to the state of being a druid, she probably needs an atonement spell, probably with a quest spell to return her to some flavor of neutral alignment (though neutral evil works), and she needs to alter her behavior.
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You might want to talk to the player instead of dealing with the character ... something tells me this may just be symptomatic of something more serious.
Maybe it's just my experiences, but I've never seen a player play a sociopath who didn't have serious personality issues of their own.
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To return to the state of being a druid, she probably needs an atonement spell, probably with a quest spell to return her to some flavor of neutral alignment (though neutral evil works), and she needs to alter her behavior.
Atonement can be used to change alignments, so no need for the quest.
Really though, do I want to know why this druid is going into whore houses and beating people?
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Ok she thinks that for every good deed she must do a evil one to maintain her alignment so she decided to go to the local whore house and pay whores to allow her to beat them with open hands now I'm she has done this twice and I have allowed it because I encourage my players to make the adventure their own even though they are playing a AP im thinking that she is beginning to shift to a chaotic evil alignment if she continues down this path and have a idea for a sub adventure for her but she will not have access to a atonement spell so I was wondering if there was another way for her to regain her Druidic powers if she loses them
Have you tried talking to her about this? Apparently its not working as intended if it makes her chaotic evil, and its sort of bleh if she's just doing it to maintain her alignment.
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ok so im running a a game and one of my players is a CN Druid now every once in a while she will go to the local whore house and beat up a whore and now im wondering if she has fallen as Druids are suppose to love all living things and if so how long does it take to get her Druid powers back and what must she do to get them
???
Grand Theft Auto: Absalom?
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Not yet but I was thinking of being a little evil about the whole thing as I do not care if she beats hookers or kick puppies however I do not want to see her get discouraged about her first time playing a Druid so I was just going to give her a little zap and allow her to find a way to redeem herself however if it wud be better to just talk to her maybe I will though I think that it wud be more fun just to let her continue and make her live with the consequences of her actions
That is a really long sentence.
Communication tends to give you better results though, yeah. Personally, would be a lot more discouraging, and would probably not help my personal relationship, if I knew you were keeping it a secret just to smack me over the head with it later. Talk to her about "you know if you keep smacking hookers..." and "You don't have to do this" and it goes a long way.
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hough I think that it wud be more fun just to let her continue and make her live with the consequences of her actions
This is a sure way to make her leave gaming forever.
First of all, what she is doing isn't Neutral. Neutral isn't a balancing act of save an orphanage in one town, better burn another one down. What she is downing is acting like a CE psychopath, not a defender of nature. She clearly doesn't understand what alignment means, and you as a DM haven't done a good job explaining it to her.
If you take her powers away without warning her or having an open conversation about that neutral isn't about, then you will be the one at fault.
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hough I think that it wud be more fun just to let her continue and make her live with the consequences of her actionsThis is a sure way to make her leave gaming forever.
First of all, what she is doing isn't Neutral. Neutral isn't a balancing act of save an orphanage in one town, better burn another one down.
Course not. Everyone's always saying it's easier to fall from good than rise from evil, right? So the exchange rate is clearly different. I'd say save an orphanage, burn maybe...five orphans, tops.
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Wow calm down
No one is yelling?
god doesn't warn you when your being bad and are about to mess up your life why then should I
Well, the thing is, your not god and neither am I, and its not about giving a warning to simulate life, its about giving a warning to keep it a nice friendly and fun game and keep it from being antagonistic. Its not life, its a game.
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god doesn't warn you when your being bad and are about to mess up your life why then should I
Let's go over some reasons.
1. Regardless of your beliefs, I don't think anybody on this forum will claim that God makes a habit of giving random humans superpowers. Pathfinder gods are known to do that.
2. Because the game isn't real life, but your player's enjoyment is.
3. Because she misunderstands the rules and deserves to have them clarified.
4. Because druids (and paladins, of course) are not meant to be "Aha! Gotcha!" classes.
You asked for advice, and people gave it. Nobody's attacking you.
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Well there was Moses
Lets not talk about real life religion here. Asking for a lot of problems.
Ok she thinks that for every good deed she must do a evil one to maintain her alignment so she decided to go to the local whore house and pay whores to allow her to beat them with open hands
Not sure it counts as an evil act if they consent to it, and they're being paid for it.
Uh, one can consent to an evil act. It doesn't matter. If I hate what is done, but consent to it and am given money, it's (usually) not a good thing to do to me. That's kind of the thing about "respecting dignity".
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You dont have to commit evil and good acts to remain neutral. For the most part as long as nothing drastic happens GM's are encouraged to allow players to keep their alignment.
Excellent point wraithstrike. Also, if someone is performing lots of "good" acts, it's actually quite easy to justify them and remain neutral - simply have them state that their reasons were for selfish or self-gratifying purposes most of the time. That's it. There, you're done.
To be clear, so long as the druid receives some reward for her actions, that can continue to be her motivation, and thus any "good" is a byproduct of her selfish desire, not actually a goodness within her that motivates said actions. Thus she's not a good-person... she just happens to be doing what she wants and "goodness" comes as an irrelevant (if not entirely unpleasant) side-effect. (Similarly, you can be evil but have "good" events follow you. Side-effects are things.)
Also, if what you're saying is true (that she has played more than you), do you mind if I ask if she's played older editions of D&D? Because that sounds like an older D&D interpretation of druidic neutrality, and one that I'm very glad was shed, as it's pretty terrible.
Lol anyways thinking more on this perhaps her saving lives and beat hookers is CN even if it is a little weird but hey half the fun is in the RP and who am I to define her chacter
You don't define her character, but you do define the world's morality. If you say (or think) something is evil, it's evil in the game world. That's what being GM means - making those calls.
I strongly encourage you to read, meditate on, and understand the alignment system and what the alignments mean.
Specifically, this part:
Good characters and creatures protect innocent life. Evil characters and creatures debase or destroy innocent life, whether for fun or profit.
Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.
Evil implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.
People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent, but may lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others.
If you want chaotic neutral,
Chaotic Neutral: A chaotic neutral character follows his whims. He is an individualist first and last. He values his own liberty but doesn't strive to protect others' freedom. He avoids authority, resents restrictions, and challenges traditions. A chaotic neutral character does not intentionally disrupt organizations as part of a campaign of anarchy. To do so, he would have to be motivated either by good (and a desire to liberate others) or evil (and a desire to make those others suffer). A chaotic neutral character may be unpredictable, but his behavior is not totally random. He is not as likely to jump off a bridge as he is to cross it.
Now, that said,
A creature's general moral and personal attitudes are represented by its alignment: lawful good, neutral good, chaotic good, lawful neutral, neutral, chaotic neutral, lawful evil, neutral evil, or chaotic evil.
Alignment is a tool for developing your character's identity—it is not a straitjacket for restricting your character. Each alignment represents a broad range of personality types or personal philosophies, so two characters of the same alignment can still be quite different from each other. In addition, few people are completely consistent.
All creatures have an alignment. Alignment determines the effectiveness of some spells and magic items.
If she is acting in an altruistic manner (or seemingly altruistic manner) for altruistic purposes (or seemingly altruistic purposes), she can still get by with being chaotic neutral.
As just a few examples off of the top of my head, if she is personally connected to the people she is rescuing (due to family connections, shared nationality, or just, "I like them" attitude) she could well be rescuing them due to her own whim - they are, for whatever reason, her people, and she won't have anyone touch them, harm them, or act cruelly toward them. Not for some higher purpose, but because they are hers, and she wants it that way, and will give a hearty "<explitive(s)>, you!" to anyone who dares otherwise.
As far as her reaction to prostitutes, perhaps she sees them (in-character) as the ultimate low of the ultimate low: willingly "selling out" to someone else's authority in order to gain money... effectively the opposite of herself.
That said, purposefully degrading them in that manner, unless they are not only consenting and into that sort of thing is evil, and even then, in my opinion, depending on how badly it's done, it would be evil nonetheless... more than enough to tidily reduce her to a chaotic evil alignment.
You mention that this is your "first game": do you mean to say that you've never played Pathfinder before, or do you simply mean that, though you've played, you've never GM'd. Have you played other editions of D&D, or similar games? I'm curious, because this may heavily skew any future advice we give.
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Hey, look, another 'this is how alignment f's up games' thread. Amazing how frequently those pop up.
Hey, look, another 'this is how alignment f's up games' thread. Amazing how frequently those pop up.
Its almost like alignment is dumb... Amazing!
Yeah, you can always take a third option and play without alignments, or at least loosen up the rules. Its not actually essential to the game that the druid remain neutral or everything flies out the window.
If PF 2.0 is ever released I won't miss them as part of a character build. I like the idea of evil spells, and outsiders made of evil, not every creature needs to have an alignment per the current rules.
Well there was MosesLets not talk about real life religion here. Asking for a lot of problems.
While this is excellent advice, however I wanted to mention based off of the exchange:
Last time I checked God did not give spellcasting powers to priests.
Well there was Moses
If you accept that God gave "spellcasting" to Moses...
<snip> god doesn't warn you when your being bad and are about to mess up your life why then should I
... this is not a valid conclusion to make. God gave Moses plenty of instruction. Moses still failed (or "fell", if you will), but he had every reason to know otherwise when he did. He acted rashly and in his own power.
The Bible also uses a different "rule set", however, and Moses' penalty for "falling" was "death before achieving Canaan" instead of "You lose miraculous power", so the analogy is also weaker there.
Beyond that, most any religious entity (divine or otherwise) does give you warning if you are going to mess up your life. It's called religious texts which, even if you presume an oral tradition, is taught carefully and fully.
Chaotic neutral people aren't chaotic stupid - they know if they're doing something that's going to bring harm to themselves, and, religiously speaking, the druid's going to know if she's doing something "wrong" based on the general principles of her philosophical sect and origins. Just as a chaotic neutral character knows that jumping off a bridge is a dumb idea, a chaotic neutral character knows that harming someone for self-gratification (or for gaining or maintaining power) is an evil act and is going to impact their ability to maintain their power (which is antithetical to her purposes for performing such actions in the first place).
All of this is why the strong suggestion is to talk to her out-of-character.
Now, to be clear, I understand,
Ok I see ya'll point and I will talk to her
... which is an excellent and good decision, but I'm trying to give you more reason to follow through with that sort of thing in general and not just because "some people fussed at me on a thread that one time until I changed my mind" which seems to be the vibe I got from your earlier posts.
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Uh, one can consent to an evil act. It doesn't matter. If I hate what is done, but consent to it and am given money, it's (usually) not a good thing to do to me. That's kind of the thing about "respecting dignity".
That's why I said pay + consent only might make it non-evil. Obviously the specific details of the situation would matter a lot. At the very least, it makes it a lesser degree of evil.
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I was made to understand that druids were not allowed to use anything made of metal am I wrong in this I know that metal armor is forbidden so perhaps my gm cam to the wrong conclusion that metal weapons were not allowed as well
Yeah, they can totally use metal weapons. They're actually proficient with scimitars to begin with. They just can't wear metal armors, which is pretty much anything below hide, but they can craft that armor of dragonhide if they really want to wear it.
Uh, one can consent to an evil act. It doesn't matter. If I hate what is done, but consent to it and am given money, it's (usually) not a good thing to do to me. That's kind of the thing about "respecting dignity".
Wait does this mean working in retail is an evil act?
Working in retail: not necessarily.
Ruling over retail: probably.
:)
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Working in retail: not necessarily.
Ruling over retail: probably.
:)
Why am I now tempted to make a campaign where the big bad is the Dungeon Mart corporation?
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Maybe it's just my experiences, but I've never seen a player play a sociopath who didn't have serious personality issues of their own.
Playing persons that are different from yourself is what roleplaying is about. If someone only (or mostly) plays sociopaths, that's when you should start to worry. But if it's only once its called roleplaying.
I have more of a problem with CN characters. As almost all CN pcs I have seen played were CN because evil was not allowed.
ok so im running a a game and one of my players is a CN Druid now every once in a while she will go to the local whore house and beat up a whore and now im wondering if she has fallen as Druids are suppose to love all living things and if so how long does it take to get her Druid powers back and what must she do to get them
I thought for sure this was a joke thread, then as I continued to read I realized it was a real thread. Anyhow, I did laugh a lot under the assumption it was a joke, so thanks for that.
What Kazaan said. A lot.
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As a Druid, the focus of the character should be on Nature and the Natural world, how she views this is governed by her alignment.
A LN Druid may view the world through natural laws, a NG Druid may focus on the more helpful and life saving aspects of nature, N druids may see the world entirely in terms of the natural view, NE druids see natural concepts as survival of the fittest and only the strong survive as mottos to live by while CN druids see nature as a random force and bend with the wind.
In one campaign there was a N druid that was the defender of a local forest. At the time a small town was beginning to expand and cut down several old groves and increase hunting to facilitate the expansion of trade while in a nearby cave network a tribe of kobolds was launching raids against the woodsmen for food and equipment. The druid comes in and immediately begins helping the good kobolds (who are not attacking nature but trying to live as part of it in his view) versus the evil humans who are despoiling and attack nature.
In this case the druid sees everything terms of nature, what is good for nature? what is bad for nature? and the concepts of law/chaos, good/evil only exist in terms of the natural world.
Neutral characters don't need to balance their actions but their actions should be taken with the idea of what is my primary motivation and how do these acts interact with that motivation. A CN druid may constantly aid and save a good town, not because they are good but because by doing so the town respects certain natural laws and her aid prevents problems for the world around her.
As a Druid, the focus of the character should be on Nature and the Natural world, how she views this is governed by her alignment.
A LN Druid may view the world through natural laws, a NG Druid may focus on the more helpful and life saving aspects of nature, N druids may see the world entirely in terms of the natural view, NE druids see natural concepts as survival of the fittest and only the strong survive as mottos to live by while CN druids see nature as a random force and bend with the wind.
In one campaign there was a N druid that was the defender of a local forest. At the time a small town was beginning to expand and cut down several old groves and increase hunting to facilitate the expansion of trade while in a nearby cave network a tribe of kobolds was launching raids against the woodsmen for food and equipment. The druid comes in and immediately begins helping the good kobolds (who are not attacking nature but trying to live as part of it in his view) versus the evil humans who are despoiling and attack nature.
In this case the druid sees everything terms of nature, what is good for nature? what is bad for nature? and the concepts of law/chaos, good/evil only exist in terms of the natural world.
Neutral characters don't need to balance their actions but their actions should be taken with the idea of what is my primary motivation and how do these acts interact with that motivation. A CN druid may constantly aid and save a good town, not because they are good but because by doing so the town respects certain natural laws and her aid prevents problems for the world around her.
^this. Druids just plain have a different worldview than most other characters just as adventurers have a different worldview than most real-life people.
My advice for playing a CN druid is to worship the chaos of nature. Chaos is what allows for change. It wipes away that which is no longer useful and leaves behind only what is strong. And more than anything, nature is fair. It has only one rule: survive. A tsunami doesn't care if the creatures it hits are good, evil, lawful, or chaotic; it simply destroys anything that can't resist it's awesome power. A CN druid is an oncoming storm. It destroys those that cannot adapt.
This does not mean she should attack other players or actively seek to harm them. It means she is going to do as she pleases and the rest of the party is gonna have to keep up. If they survive the storm, they are worthy to be her friends and companions. She will help them as it pleases her but she doesn't have to risk her life for their's.
Another important question, and someone may have mentioned it...but isn't the druid just paying a prostitute to let him/her indulge in some "light" sado-masochistic fun? Not that it does anything to me, sexually, but I'm pretty sure that most people who engage in SM/Bondage are not Chaotic Evil...
This x100.
The druid is paying a sex worker to engage in BDSM play with her as the top and the sex worker as the bottom. As long as the sex worker isn't being forced to agree to the transaction by the brothel or a pimp or someone, then this is not an evil act, and not necessarily even a chaotic one. I would argue that a Paladin could engage in consensual BDSM with a sex worker, as long as the paladin paid the agreed amount, respected any safewords or hard limits the sex worker asked for in advance, and showed them respect and care before and after the scene. This assumes that sex work of this sort is not illegal in the locality.