Not going to lie, that sounds like a fantastic idea (the fact that this is something I've been in favor of for awhile helps).I think JJ have said that if pathfidner II see the light of day, he would liek to make the full attack go away.The entire reason for the popularity of Pathfinder is the changes to sacred cows in 4e. This isn't edition bashing, but just stating historical perspective that makes tossing Vancian magic unlikely to say the least.I wouldn't say its the entire reason. I'd say its a number of things and that they like sticking to the whole martials full attack and casters use vancian gig and don't show plans to change that.
I'm always nervous when I find myself agreeing with Anzyr. I'm rarely nervous though.
This was one of the few things I really liked to see in 5e, was the removal of the full attack, and a level scaling ability to deal more damage with your single attack.
If you could get fighters on a standard attack action, maybe putting things like whirlwind attack as full actions, and possibly most combat maneuvers as a swift action, you'd open up a lot more in tactical combat for melee classes. As it stands, the 'best' options are almost always those that allow you to get to the foe as quick as possible and full attack. It's horrifically effective, but fairly boring.
But, arcanists, right. I have dragons on arcanist spellcasting, except they use sorcerer numbers. I had arcanaloths on it (with sorcerer numbers) before Pathfinder even came out. At the moment, most of my players consider sorcerers more fun than wizards. I suspect they'll find arcanists a solid addition as well.
Not going to lie, that sounds like a fantastic idea (the fact that this is something I've been in favor of for awhile helps).I think JJ have said that if pathfidner II see the light of day, he would liek to make the full attack go away.The entire reason for the popularity of Pathfinder is the changes to sacred cows in 4e. This isn't edition bashing, but just stating historical perspective that makes tossing Vancian magic unlikely to say the least.I wouldn't say its the entire reason. I'd say its a number of things and that they like sticking to the whole martials full attack and casters use vancian gig and don't show plans to change that.I'm always nervous when I find myself agreeing with Anzyr. I'm rarely nervous though.
This was one of the few things I really liked to see in 5e, was the removal of the full attack, and a level scaling ability to deal more damage with your single attack.
If you could get fighters on a standard attack action, maybe putting things like whirlwind attack as full actions, and possibly most combat maneuvers as a swift action, you'd open up a lot more in tactical combat for melee classes. As it stands, the 'best' options are almost always those that allow you to get to the foe as quick as possible and full attack. It's horrifically effective, but fairly boring.
But, arcanists, right. I have dragons on arcanist spellcasting, except they use sorcerer numbers. I had arcanaloths on it (with sorcerer numbers) before Pathfinder even came out. At the moment, most of my players consider sorcerers more fun than wizards. I suspect they'll find arcanists a solid addition as well.
Don't be nervous, that's a good sign! Were I redesigning d20 from the ground up full attacks would be replaced with techniques like say Whirlwind Attack (though it probably only be a standard), with more powerful stuff being a full attack (like say an upgraded Whirlwind Attack that dealt more damage/attacked multiple times). Of course this would also include more varied effects.
Only if we saw more full round spells would I want to retain anything at all in the vein of full melee options. More movement creates a better tactical came in my opinion. If the fighter (or ranger/barb/etc) doesn't have a reason to avoid movement (like he does if he has 4x potential damage when he doesn't) then he'll move more often.
If wizards can move and launch their most powerful attacks, fighters should be able to as well.
Precisely. By removing the full attack set-up, we can give Fighters sweet stuff as standard actions and stronger things if their willing to trade mobility. Add in a few Swifts that are attacks or buffs to attacks and that's generally how I'd rewrite martials. Since I'm a big fan of balance, naturally casters would have the same restriction to their spells. Some things would be still be standard, but bigger scarier stuff would be full round (though this would complete on the same turn and merely use up both their move and standard actions), with some swift spells thrown in.
And damn it, now I feel compelled to work on a d20 rewrite. >_<
Precisely. By removing the full attack set-up, we can give Fighters sweet stuff as standard actions and stronger things if their willing to trade mobility. Add in a few Swifts that are attacks or buffs to attacks and that's generally how I'd rewrite martials. Since I'm a big fan of balance, naturally casters would have the same restriction to their spells. Some things would be still be standard, but bigger scarier stuff would be full round (though this would complete on the same turn and merely use up both their move and standard actions), with some swift spells thrown in.
And damn it, now I feel compelled to work on a d20 rewrite. >_<
Inb4 TOB.
Also, 3.5's Tome of Battle had options for martials as a standard and swift so they were a bit more mobile and had more options. Still got a lot out of full attacking though. Might be worth a peak if you haven't already.
Yup well aware and definitely inspired by! Easily my second favorite 3.5 subsystem. Psionics is my favorite by being the best thing since sliced bread and contributing immediate actions to 3.5. Also way more balanced then Core magic and 100x better then balanced then every other editions psionics subsystem.
Obviously, this would be a bit different since this would do way with full-attacking and instead of "full attack" abilities. Like an increased range Whirlwind attack that smacks everyone twice. Three times if you have +16 BAB!
^ He is entirely correct about psionics, by the way. :D
Wow... a whole lotta stuff above I hope never sees the light of day in Pathfinder.
If you like how a Sorcerer works, play a Sorcerer. No need to make everyone comply. If you don't like full-attacks, don't use them, there are *plenty* of great standard actions available.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you like how a Sorcerer works, play a Sorcerer. No need to make everyone comply. If you don't like full-attacks, don't use them, there are *plenty* of great standard actions available.
Like...?
If you like how a Sorcerer works, play a Sorcerer. No need to make everyone comply. If you don't like full-attacks, don't use them, there are *plenty* of great standard actions available.Like...?
Yeah, now I'm curious too... That's a rather bold statement. (Unless he means "casting a spell", which is indeed a great standard action, but completely misses the point).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Casting a spell :)If you like how a Sorcerer works, play a Sorcerer. No need to make everyone comply. If you don't like full-attacks, don't use them, there are *plenty* of great standard actions available.Like...?
I cast... sword slash! As a full round action I can use sword slash an additional time at 6th BAB and every 5 after!
Monks are really good at casting fist! Not so good at hitting, but good at the punching! Sometimes they cast kick though.
Certainly off topic,but in my opinion the game should become simplier instead of more convoluted. The reason the full attakcs are a "must" in OF is because the mosnter have too much hit points. Just reduce the hit points of the monsters, and you will need less attacks to face a CR equivalent encounters. That also make healing and blasting easier.
Besides, less attacks is less time per character, making the combat faster.
|
The main thing about Psionics is the whole "nova" aspect and the fact that it uses a form of Mana to power the "spells." I think some of the classes that only used "when there is at least one point in your pool" effects need not be powered by the same mechanic at all and derive powers and class abilities from it's own base instead of using the various spell like powers from the psionic list.
The Soul Knife could be a Ki using Rogue Archtype, for example, or alternate class, if Paizo would still do that.
The Arcanist, though, is how I would like magic use to evolve, without the restrictive access that is there now because it needs to play nice with the old bearded wizard.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The full attacks can be countered by just allowing for attacks to do more damage as you level up. As for nova'ing, casters can also do it, and if a player novas at a bad time then let them deal with the consequences.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
There are many times psionics is run incorrectly and decried as "broken".
There are many times that psionics is run correctly and decried as "broken" because people have (unbeknownst to them) confirmation bias.
There are some that just look at the potential, get the rules correct, but then greatly over-estimate the power of nova in actual practice.
In general, psionics is more powerful than martials (as most casters are, due to options), but less powerful than casters (arcane or divine) - this makes their balance about middle-of-the-road. Their organization system makes much more sense (which powers belong to which discipline) and are more consistently implemented (blasty always goes to psychokinesis instead of split between conjuration/evocation/necromancy/transmutation), their power point system is generally easier to keep track of on level-up (it can be expressed as simple mathmatical formula instead chart-specific comparisons), and their powers are usually more balanced (especially compared to arcane closest-comparisons, which scale for free).
If, on the other hand, by "nova" you mean, "if improperly utilized, they can quickly and accidentally drain themselves of power leading to a fifteen minute adventuring day", you'd be correct - but that's mostly a problem for lower levels, and at higher levels, experienced players generally get a good feel for how much power they have (or they come habitually nova)... which is more or less exactly what happens with other casters too.
Now, for a few caveats:
1) in PF (as opposed to 3.5, where the vast bulk of my psionic experience lies), casters all gain some sort of at-will stuff. That seems less true for psionic users (though Dreamscarred may have done this - it's hard to recall when I've got the 3.5 stuff so thoroughly ingrained!); thus possibly exposing them to the "no power left" effect;
and,
2) as I have less experience in PF's stuff, I can't directly speak for it's balance... but I can speak for the tendency of balance when comparing the two systems at their base, and can also bear witness to the eloquence and insight others have brought declaring that, of the two, the power point system is consistently more balanced
And, over-all, what's the worse problem: infinite action loops generating infinite wishes (or similar), breaking the action economy, and gaining limitless hit dice (and the skills, hit points, saves, and so on that go with it); or a few tendencies to burn out quickly in a single battle (which the GM can "correct" with in-character consequences at his leisure, either teaching the players to step up their game or lose), and maybe two or three different highly "broken" sets of abilities (entire builds that mostly just add up to an ability similar to one of Tar Baphon's mythic abilities)?
I would suggest that there are certainly broken combos in psionics. I would suggest that there are also broken combos in martials, and far more broken combos in magic in general.
For the record, mana-based spellcasting it ridiculously over-powered, even more so than Vancian casting is now. Power-point-based spellcasting utilizing psionics' rules would be ludicrously more balanced than Vancinan, though still more potent than psionics in general.
I do like the idea of the soul knife being a rogue archetype... or, more likely, a ninja archetype to take advantage of the combination of sneak attack (instead of psychic strike) and the already-extant presence of ki.
I'm also interested in the concept of other classes harnessing ki in ways different from the monk, but utilizing some of the same basic concepts. I would be highly interested in such developments if Paizo went in that direction.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I still want to "prepare" spells from a spellbook, mind you, but use the spells as "Known" spells when casting. What should have been done in 3.0 from the very beginning.I certainly hope not. That method sounds terrible. But then I am a fan of the Vancian magic system.Whatever happens, one of my PFS characters is an Arcanist, so I am going to play the class no matter what changes or if it breaks or it breaks the game.
Hopefully, in the distant future, PF Ver2 will have a codified, universal magic system much like the Sorcerer mechanics with possibly cool downs instead of sticking with the Vancian "fire and forget" sacred cow.
Have you heard of this upcoming "Arcanist" class? It's supposed to do just that I can't wait!
Have you heard of this upcoming "Arcanist" class? It's supposed to do just that I can't wait!I still want to "prepare" spells from a spellbook, mind you, but use the spells as "Known" spells when casting. What should have been done in 3.0 from the very beginning.I certainly hope not. That method sounds terrible. But then I am a fan of the Vancian magic system.Whatever happens, one of my PFS characters is an Arcanist, so I am going to play the class no matter what changes or if it breaks or it breaks the game.
Hopefully, in the distant future, PF Ver2 will have a codified, universal magic system much like the Sorcerer mechanics with possibly cool downs instead of sticking with the Vancian "fire and forget" sacred cow.
Before anyone attributes the idea to Paizo, the Spirit Shaman from 3.5 Complete Divine uses pretty much the same mechanic as the Arcanist. I still prefer completely prepared casters, but I like having additional mechanics in the game. I think the arcanist/spirit shaman casting mechanic is great for my NPCs, so I am definitely looking forwards to it.
The issue appears to be that THaX wants everything to work identically, so he wants arcanists to be the only full caster in the game. While I bear no ill will against anyone on the forums, I am happy to say that I do not thing he will get his wish.
Agreed. While I (obviously) prefer point based casting (manifesting) and augmentation as my magic system, I love having a variety more then locking everything into one system. Is Vancian casting poor at imitating how spells work in most stories? Sure. Does that mean it isn't interesting? Heck no, its a wonderfully clever system. Tack on variations of both point and vancian magic and you have a rich deep system.
|
|
A unified magic system would free up design to work on actually having the various caster classes being different instead of the current set up, same class, different mechanics. I believe point pools could be used for class abilities and augmentation in different ways for each class.
Right now, one of the things that PF has done is to make a Spontanious version of the various "old guard" classes, giving them different class features that seperate them from their parent class more so than what the Wizard and Sorcerer was in 3.0. I would hope that freeing up design constraints would open up more possibilities for those classes, most likely in later books after the core classes are set.
That is what I want. Modern design.
There is: sacrifice spell slots.
|
|
Yes, use powers instead of spells. This should not even be an option, the arcanist needs both to work together, not fight to see which he should use. In pfs, the one renewable resource, the staff, is out of reach for at least a third of the arcanist's carreer.
Why not have points go in as spells are cast, steal spells from other casters, or even have HP damage in exchange for a point? To me, it seems the Arcanist can only ever recharge his pool in an emergancy.
I actually suggested hp damage in exchange for more points too. I just couldn't figure out a good exchange rate.
Yes, use powers instead of spells. This should not even be an option, the arcanist needs both to work together, not fight to see which he should use.
Sacrificing spells for powers, especially ones that augment spells, sounds like them working hand in hand to me. Its actually a really powerful option too, and as you level, if the cost doesn't scale, you'll just get more to use and have to sacrifice less!
Have to be careful about draining other casters and items. Its a lot less harder to control and estimate the value of a power like that because what a player and GM and campaign will allow could vary pretty wildly.
I actually suggested hp damage in exchange for more points too. I just couldn't figure out a good exchange rate.
Given a little out of combat this would be wonderful! Just take a few hit points of damage, use the healstick, repeat until you have all you want! Well then con damage makes sense right? Okay, well at a later level I'll just my wand of lesser restoration and get all I want then. Life tap, baby!
Yes, use powers instead of spells. This should not even be an option, the arcanist needs both to work together, not fight to see which he should use.Sacrificing spells for powers, especially ones that augment spells, sounds like them working hand in hand to me. Its actually a really powerful option too, and as you level, if the cost doesn't scale, you'll just get more to use and have to sacrifice less!
Have to be careful about draining other casters and items. Its a lot less harder to control and estimate the value of a power like that because what a player and GM and campaign will allow could vary pretty wildly.
I actually suggested hp damage in exchange for more points too. I just couldn't figure out a good exchange rate.Given a little out of combat this would be wonderful! Just take a few hit points of damage, use the healstick, repeat until you have all you want! Well then con damage makes sense right? Okay, well at a later level I'll just my wand of lesser restoration and get all I want then. Life tap, baby!
Easily solved. "This damage can only be healed by resting."