Douglas Muir 406 |
And by "decent" I'll settle for "doesn't actually suck, and could make an interesting NPC". I'm not looking for something that can take on the Beastmass, here. -- So, the Strangler feat:
Throttling the life out of enemies is second nature to you.
Prerequisite: Dex 13, sneak attack +1d6, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike.
Benefit: Whenever you successfully maintain a grapple and choose to deal damage, you can spend a swift action to deal your sneak attack damage to the creature you are grappling.
This is flavorful as hell, but some obvious problems arise. In order to get any mileage out of this, you need to be a rogue, or something that's based on a rogue. And then you need to burn two feat slots on feats that rogues don't usually bother with, and that aren't terribly useful. And *then* you need to find ways to raise your CMB, because rogues tend to have pretty crap CMBs.
That said, there are a couple of interesting directions you could go with this. (1) Take Greater Grapple; this gives you another +2 on your grappling CMB check, and lets you maintain the grapple as a move action. So you can do your SA damage twice per round. (2) Take the Body Shield feat; this lets you attempt, as an immediate action, to use a grappled foe as cover. (3) Consider the Thug archetype, which lets you give up 1d6 of SA damage to sicken your victim. (A sickened opponent is at -2 on rolls to escape your grapple.)
So, a possible build might look something like, human rogue (thug), 15 point build -> Str 14. In theory you could dump Str, throw everything at Dex and take the Agile Maneuvers feat (use Dex for CMB) but I suspect this is suboptimal -- you're burning a feat for a rather modest gain, and Str still counts for CMD.
1 Improved Unarmed Strike (might as well get it out of the way)
H Improved Grapple
2 Strangler (combat trick rogue talent)
3 Dodge (improves CMD)
4 ?
5 ?
6 ?
7 ?
8 Greater Grapple (combat trick)
9 Body Shield
You could also throw the Chokehold feat in there, but Chokehold is kind of a crap feat -- it's really something you should be able to do without a feat IMO. I guess it's thematic for a strangler character, and it does let you completely shut down casters, which is nice. "Ha ha, Dimension Door is verbal only, HURK" But it's awfully situational and probably not worth a feat slot.
Anyway, a 9th level rogue with a 14 Str and the two feats is going to have a base CMB of +13. That's pretty weaksauce. Are there any ways to improve on this? More generally, can we make this build interesting?
Thanks in advance,
Doug M.
Cornielius |
Ninja has the talents unarmed combat training and weapon training to help out.
Pressure points and bleeding attack would stack more on top of the sneak attack.
Flanking and flatfooted would help you get the grapple off.
Combat maneuvers says "Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll."
Grapple takes a standard action, so with flat-footed or flanked opponents, you're giving up the initial sneak attack for grapple then adding sneak attack damage.
Possibly the build would work with a later level focus on grappling- waiting till you build up acrobatics to get past the front line to focus on casters? Vanish trick would also help with this.
edit: maybe a set of ninja twins with teamwork feats to help them get the grapples off?
Skaldi the Tallest |
Using a Garrote would allow you to use your enhancement bonus on grapple checks. A thing it was recently clarified an AoMF can't do.
Brawling Armor would give you a +2 Enhancement bonus to your grapple checks when unarmed.
Vishkanya Rogues get a +1 CMD vs. Grapple as a FCB.
ARMOR: Titanic (Count as one size larger for special abilities)
BELT: Anaconda's Coil (+2 Str, +2 Competence to grapple, Constrict)
FEET: Earth Root Boots (Growing Circumstance bonus to CMD)
HANDS: Gloves of the Skilled Maneuver (+2 Untyped bonus to CMB for 1 maneuver)
SHOULDERS: Pauldrons of the Serpent (+2 untyped to Grapple CMD)
WRISTS: Armbands of the Brawler (+1 competence to Grapple CMB)
SLOTLESS: Slotted Dusty Rose Ioun Stone (+2 Insight Bonus to CMB)
That's just some stuff I've gathered while considering a similar build.
TLO3 |
This type of rogue shouldn't be using 14 Str as his CMB stat. Either dump Str and go all Dex with agile maneuvers, or my choice would be to drop dex, pump Str, and take a level or two in armored hulk barbarian for heavy armor and rage.
Edit: Brutal Pugilist barbarian is more thematic and gets more bonuses to grapple. If you did took this archetype instead I'd take another level dip in fighter or something for free heavy armor and a bonus feat. More efficient than buying heavy armor proficiency through your limited feat slots. Alternatively you wear a mithral breastplate and keep your evasion.
At level 12 something like Rogue 7, Brutal Pugilist 5 looks pretty good.
Koujow |
Why not take a level or two in Tetori monk? 1 level of Tetori Monk gets you Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple for free. I would actually suggest maybe taking a couple of levels of the Tetori Monk prior to taking levels in Rogue because it sets up a strong foundation, netting you huge bonuses to grapple checks and some pretty nifty abilities.
Also, do note that being grappled does not deny your target their Dexterity and therefore, you can not sneak attack a grappled target, even if you can maintain the grapple as a move action.
The big draw to this build (and any grappler build, really) is that you can basically lock down a target. The bonus sneak attack damage would just be icing on the cake.
Douglas Muir 406 |
@Skaldi, great list of bonus items! Thank you! How did you put that together?
@TLO3, I see the attraction of the brutal pugilist, but the point is to build around the strangler feat. Dipping a level or two of something, okay. Dipping five levels... well, at 12th level doing 4d6 damage is nothing special. The character might as well grab a battleaxe and start hacking.
@Koujow, I could see a level or two in Tetori. Of course, the problem with dipping monk is that it's so damn MADdy. Also, if you're dipping two, the temptation to dip up to four for the ki pool is hard to resist...
Note that the whole point of the Strangler feat is that it lets you get sneak attack damage while grappling even if the target still has his Dex bonus. That's what makes it interesting!
Doug M.
TLO3 |
@TLO3, I see the attraction of the brutal pugilist, but the point is to build around the strangler feat. Dipping a level or two of something, okay. Dipping five levels... well, at 12th level doing 4d6 damage is nothing special. The character might as well grab a battleaxe and start hacking.
Nothing wrong with sneak attacking with an axe.
Two levels of brutal pugilist reduces your grapple penalties by half, let's you AoO on people that have improved grapple, gets you medium armor proficiency (Mithral breastplate) and you get the standard barbarian 2 benefits of rage + rage power.
If you're going with strength-based grappler, having rage is nothing to sneeze at.
The thing with grapplers is you need to squeeze out every bonus to your CMB you possibly can. If you try and balance Str and Dex for a traditional balanced rogue, you're not going to succeed at grappling very often. Decide whether you're going Dex or Str and focus on that. I prefer strength because it makes it easier to be good outside of just grappling.
I3igAl |
How about starting as rogue or ninja and then going Vivisectionist. That way you keep your Sneak attack, but gain Mutagen(and maybe Grab if you are a beastmorph Vivisectionist.)
If 3.5 stuff is allowed, you could use a Garrote (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Garrote_%283.5e_Equipment%29) and combine it with the Sap Master Feats.
RainyDayNinja RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16 |
Keep in mind that even with Greater Grapple, you only get one swift action, so no double sneak damage. I'd go with a garrote (in the Adventurer's Armory). Pump Stealth and UMD (for scrolls of silence), and jump out at people. With Greater Grapple, you can do sneak damage AND use the special choke option each turn. Could be a super-fun assassin NPC.
Imbicatus |
Also, if you have a Belt of Ananconda's Coils or a two level dip in in White Haired witch, you have Constrict. This allows you to take the Final Embrace feat for Grab and a Constrict attack using your normal grapple, not just the belt/hair.
Grab gives +4 untyped bonus to grapple checks and constrict will allow you to do damage on every grapple check.
WRoy |
Thug archetype lets you apply sickened for a few rounds when dealing sneak attack damage by giving up 1d6... could be useful to do on an initial sneak attack before the grapple to lower an opponent's CMB/CMD, or on the first Strangler use.
Snapping Turtle Style and Snapping Turtle Clutch would let you initiate a grapple as an immediate action whenever missed by a melee attack. Tying up your next round's swift action means it delays your use of Strangler by a round, however, which is where most of your grapple damage is coming from.
Befuddling Strike rogue talent lets you apply a -2 attack roll (CMB) debuff for 1d4 rounds, making it easier to maintain a grapple. Offensive Defense is usually better, but it requires you to be dealing sneak attack damage with a melee attack and Strangler is dealing stand-alone sneak attack damage as a swift action.
Avoid the Rapid Grappler feat. You will be using the swift action while grappling to deal sneak attack damage, so it's got minimal use.
A wand of resinous skin or an ally capable of casting it on you could be useful.
The biggest challenge with using Strangler is action economy. You can only take the swift action to deal sneak attack after spending a standard action (or move action if you have Greater Grapple) to maintain the grapple and deal damage.
Scott Wilhelm |
My Grappling character doesn't have inflicting damage as her goal, but rather tying up, so she has 2 levels in Cavalier Order of the Penitent, and Greater Grapple. My next grappler character will also take a level in Alchemist so she can cast True Strike, then take 4 levels in Quinngong Monk so she can give herself another True Strike as a swift action. The Terrasque won't stand a chance! Awesome, but not quite what you are looking for.
Remember that you are not sharing a space with your grappled opponent, so you can still flank normally, and get your sneak attack damage that way.
Armor spikes do damage with every stage of the grapple and they can be enchanted like other weapons. It's not clearly legal to me, but you might be able to apply sneak attack damage to your armor spike damage while grappling. Ask your DM, but don't get disappointed.
The Pinning Knockout feat lets you do double damage.
When you have your Opponent Pinned, your opponent is subject to sneak attack damage, and you will start inflicting Sneak Attack Damage normally that way. That damage should stack with Strangler.
Vivisectionist Alchemists get Sneak Attack instead of Bombs. They get those Mutagens. There are 2 Alchemist Discoveries that are great for grappling: Tentacle gives you the Grab ability and therefore a +4, and Tumor Familiar. You can get a King Crab familiar that gives you a +2. I think you can be a Beastmorph Vivisectionist Alchemist. You might find a beast you can morph into that will give you Constrict, which should also stack with the armor spikes.
Shimnimnim |
Vivisectionist just seems right. You've got mutagens to boost your strength or dexterity score.
And while this may sound odd, you have enlarge person. This incredibly non-rogue power grants you an additional +2 to your grapples AND increases your reach, a surprisingly useful grappling skill.
Savage maw gives you a bite attack while grappling.
Animal Aspect (gorilla) gives you a +4 to grapple checks.
You can always grapple with access to "defensive shock".
There are plenty of polymorph spells that will aid your grappling. Alter self and giant form I will allow you to carry a weapon still for that grapple bonus. Form of the beast has some obvious forms of up to huge size.