The text plainly says that it increases all morale bonuses from all sources. There is no room for argument there. Intent can only be confirmed by a developer, and it's not RAW until it's in a FAQ or Errata.
As far as judging it based on its enhancement cost, there are a great many weapon properties that are overcosted (and some I wouldn't even use if they were +1). And there are some others that are undercosted, like Seeking. When can melee expect to ignore all miss chances for a +1 cost?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think it boils down like this:
If you were to ask a laymen to read the ability of the Courageous property they would likely read it as applying to all morale bonuses, not just bonuses to fear.
Once you understand how this can be taken advantage of by having strong knowledge of the rules of Pathfinder it is exploitable, particularly for barbarians. Because of this it seems better to interpret the statement as only applying to morale bonuses against fear. Especially when considering the cost. This interpretation would also relegate this weapon enhancement to uselessness (which isn't an argument for or against).
To be quite honest, having a bonus on Fear effects is silly anyway, since there are several ways to be immune to Fear effects, and having an effect that expands this when many martials get Fear immunity (I mean, it's practically a requirement, since Casters don't have to fear anything these days) makes the property a complete joke.
I'll expand a point I made on the previously-discussed thread: Being Courageous isn't just about having the nuts to do something, it's also about rising up to the challenge, and succeeding. It's not unreasonable to assume the property, which flavorfully calls out that it "fortifies morale," helps in both respects.
After all, what's the difference between a true warrior and a shallow-hearted fool? A true warrior fights to his last breath to eliminate the enemy, and is victorious in his conquest. The fool, on the other hand, thinks he is capable of defeating an enemy who is obviously stronger than he is, and gets slaughtered like cannon-fodder.
It's good to know the weapon helps you in being a shallow-hearted fool who's not afraid to throw his life away and accomplish nothing, instead of being a true warrior who rises to the challenge and slays the enemies who lay waste to him and his comrades. The former isn't courageous, it's just outright stupid.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What's so wrong with applying the weapon's property to rage? It is only going to increase STR and CON by 1, which will only bump up their modifier if they have an odd number. Unless they have a +4 enhancement bonus on the weapon, then it will provide +2. Sure, you could apply greater magic weapon to it as a 16th level caster to negate the need to buy a +5 equivalent weapon, but I'm sure you will be able to afford a +5 weapon long before you reach level 16. What am I missing that makes courageous too good? +1 to STR and CON doesn't seem like that big a deal to me for 8,000GP, nor does it seem like a big deal for +2 to STR and CON for 50,000GP.
After all, what's the difference between a true warrior and a shallow-hearted fool? A true warrior fights to his last breath to eliminate the enemy, and is victorious in his conquest. The fool, on the other hand, thinks he is capable of defeating an enemy who is obviously stronger than he is, and gets slaughtered like cannon-fodder.
Those who feel a +1 weapon bonus can provide +3 Str, +3 Con, +3 Will, and an additional +3 Attack, +3 Damage, +3 Saves, +3 Checks in conjuction with a single spell (good hope) reminds me far more of the fool you describe than the true warrior.
Robert: +2, furious, courageous gives +2 Str/Con/Will (32k)
After all, what's the difference between a true warrior and a shallow-hearted fool? A true warrior fights to his last breath to eliminate the enemy, and is victorious in his conquest. The fool, on the other hand, thinks he is capable of defeating an enemy who is obviously stronger than he is, and gets slaughtered like cannon-fodder.Those who feel a +1 weapon bonus can provide +3 Str, +3 Con, +3 Will, and an additional +3 Attack, +3 Damage, +3 Saves, +3 Checks in conjuction with a single spell (good hope) reminds me far more of the fool you describe than the true warrior.
Robert: +1, furious, courageous gives +2 Str/Con/Will (18k)
Har har har. But I'll compare prices:
+2 Strength belt, 4K.
+2 Constitution belt, 4K.
+2 Headband, 4K.
It's actually cheaper to buy stat items than it is the weapon, and that's including Strength/Con belt costs 10K.
In addition, it requires a +4/6 Enhancement Bonus weapon to reach +2/+3 to your benefits that you cite, something which is practically unheard of, and by the time you reach the endgame where it can apply, the bonuses aren't that big of a deal since combat is generally resolved in the first round (thank you Spellcasters for trivializing late game encounters far more than a +1 property that increases pre-combat buffs, in an encounter that ends before it begins).
I still don't see the complaint, when the time it gets "too good" is when it becomes pointless to have, and the time where it just comes online makes it at best slightly better than applying a +1 enhancement bonus to your weapon; and even that is subjective due to party/character composition.
As I said in the other thread for me there are two seperate issues.
1)I'm of the opinion it only boosts saves vs fear. This keeps it in line with a +1 weapon enchant. Could it be the other reading? Yes in theory but woule make it way stronger thsn almost any other weapon + in the game.
2) and this is the bigger issue for me if you go with the "it boosts all moral bonuses" reading you could stick this on an amf (or spiked gauntlet as the other threae) and the item becomes one of the strongest wonderous items in the game.
I'm pretty sure a 5000 gp item and +greater magic weapon enchant isn't intended to be some uber offense combo.
Part of this is a lot of moral stuff boosts things with no connction to combst or weapons.
Ok, so you get an additional +1 to attack rolls, damage rolls, saves, and skill checks when using courageous and good hope. I still don't see a problem. Even if you do drop 32k on a +2 courageous furious weapon to get to +2 instead of +1, that's still a significant investment. The greater magic weapon argument shouldn't really apply as that would need to be cast at 16th level to grant a +4 enhancement bonus. And do you have a bard in your group to cast good hope on you at will? Chances are you don't, therefore you will need to keep a supply of potions of it at 1050GP a pop. So what's the most ridiculous combo that you can make with the courageous property? So far I am seeing:
+1-2 additional STR and CON when raging
+1-2 additional attack, damage, saves, skill checks when using good hope
If you have a problem with courageous giving an additional +1 to attack and damage while raging, why not have a problem with furious as well? That grants +2 to attack and damage while raging for only 8,000GP. And bypasses cold iron and silver DR to boot.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I see no room for interpretation here - the text clearly states that all morale bonuses are affected.
Besides, I see nothing "uber".
No clarification, please. They tend to result in making things that are perfectly acceptable into non-options.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Do people really think Paizo writers and editors are incapable of writing clear and consistent rules with at least a high school level of competency? The interpretation that some seem to be pushing would require elementary school level writing mistakes in a pretty simple couple of sentences. To paraphrase the developers "this doesn't need a FAQ as the rules are already clearly written".
I agree that the rules themselves are clearly written. It wouldn't be the first time some DMs tried to read their way around the plain meaning of the written rules because they thought them to be too powerful, though. I agree it is a strong weapon property, and there is a little bit of wiggle room to enable reading against the text plus a motive to do so.
The existence of a developer post somewhere (where?) saying that it works otherwise than is written does throw legitimate uncertainty into the mix, though, on the other hand, even though such is lacking in the rules themselves.
On the other other hand, there are the recent admonitions against relying on unofficial mediums for rules clarification.
I see no room for interpretation here - the text clearly states that all morale bonuses are affected.
Besides, I see nothing "uber".
No clarification, please.
The competing interpretation seems to me to rest on a strained enough reading that I am not going to FAQ this. However, the SKR quote seems to indicate that it may well be true that the rules ought to say something quite different than they do.
So while I agree with the general sentiment, I will ask Paizo that if they do change the rules, please alter the text directly and don't just add a FAQ saying that the rules should be read in a strained, indirect fashion.
This last because I like clear rules and I like when plain readings are encouraged and supported.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Har har har. But I'll compare prices:+2 Strength belt, 4K.
+2 Constitution belt, 4K.
+2 Headband, 4K.It's actually cheaper to buy stat items than it is the weapon, and that's including Strength/Con belt costs 10K.
However, it's not an either/or proposition. You can benefit from the listed items and the Courageous bonuses. When you start applying the cost differeneces to take those three items, combine them into one item, and then make them slotless, the equation starts changing a lot.
You've got (10,000 x 1.5) for the physical stats + (18,000 x 1.5) for the save x 1.5 for the ability to multiply additional abilities means that that combo is worth closer to 63,000 gp, or over a +5 enhancement bonus.**EDIT** I'm actually probably shorting the formula as well. Since the tables only give estimates for ability bonuses of the enhancement type, we should probably be multiplying the 10k for the STR/CON bonuses by 2 instead of 1.5, which would actually put us at 70,500, just shy of +6 range.
Har har har. But I'll compare prices:+2 Strength belt, 4K.
+2 Constitution belt, 4K.
+2 Headband, 4K.It's actually cheaper to buy stat items than it is the weapon, and that's including Strength/Con belt costs 10K.
However, it's not an either/or proposition. You can benefit from the listed items and the Courageous bonuses. When you start applying the cost differeneces to take those three items, combine them into one item, and then make them slotless, the equation starts changing a lot.
You've got (10,000 x 1.5) for the physical stats + (18,000 x 1.5) for the save x 1.5 for the ability to multiply additional abilities means that that combo is worth closer to 63,000 gp, or over a +5 enhancement bonus.
Does this fall outside of the general tolerances of item pricing (and if so, how far outside, compared to how far the "fear saves only" interpretation does?)
edit: (also, eyeballing your numbers makes me want to double check them, but I am going into work in a few minutes - will do when home. Are you correctly managing your slot related price multipliers?).
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Does this fall outside of the general tolerances of item pricing (and if so, how far outside, compared to how far the "fear saves only" interpretation does?)
Har har har. But I'll compare prices:+2 Strength belt, 4K.
+2 Constitution belt, 4K.
+2 Headband, 4K.It's actually cheaper to buy stat items than it is the weapon, and that's including Strength/Con belt costs 10K.
However, it's not an either/or proposition. You can benefit from the listed items and the Courageous bonuses. When you start applying the cost differeneces to take those three items, combine them into one item, and then make them slotless, the equation starts changing a lot.
You've got (10,000 x 1.5) for the physical stats + (18,000 x 1.5) for the save x 1.5 for the ability to multiply additional abilities means that that combo is worth closer to 63,000 gp, or over a +5 enhancement bonus.
Even if you apply the 30% cut for this being a class specific benefit, that would still mean that it's value falls between 44,100 and 49,350 or just between a +4 and +5 weapon, meaning that if Courageous is supposed to increase all morale bonuses and not just saves vs. fear, it is still bonkers underpriced.
I wonder if the folks complaining about courageous are really just complaining about the awesome power of the greater magic weapon past caster level 16. If you think about it, greater magic weapon is incredibly inexpensive for what it does.
Keep in mind that to get courageous to "go nuclear" on a barbarian, you're looking at either a CL 16+ greater magic weapon or a CL 8+ greater magic weapon plus the furious enchantment.
Now, the question of whether furious should stack with greater magic weapon, that is a good conversation to have.
-Matt
I wonder if the folks complaining about courageous are really just complaining about the awesome power of the greater magic weapon past caster level 16. If you think about it, greater magic weapon is incredibly inexpensive for what it does.
Keep in mind that to get courageous to "go nuclear" on a barbarian, you're looking at either a CL 16+ greater magic weapon or a CL 8+ greater magic weapon plus the furious enchantment.
Now, the question of whether furious should stack with greater magic weapon, that is a good conversation to have.
-Matt
I suspect that it isn't courageous that people have a problem with. By itself, it isn't a big deal at all. It is combining it with furious that people seem to have a problem with. Take away furious and it doesn't seem that bad at all does it? Furious is a +3 weapon for the price of a +2. Both are good options, but I would not call this combination overpowered.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hmm...
I wonder... does greater magic weapon actually stack with furious, or does it simply provide a "constant overwrite" effect of the weapon's enhancement bonus?
If the latter... then the greater magic weapon/furious/courageous combo doesn't really work, and courageous simply requires a CL 16+ casting of greater magic weapon to go nuclear.
-Matt
Even if you apply the 30% cut for this being a class specific benefit, that would still mean that it's value falls between 44,100 and 49,350 or just between a +4 and +5 weapon, meaning that if Courageous is supposed to increase all morale bonuses and not just saves vs. fear, it is still bonkers underpriced.Does this fall outside of the general tolerances of item pricing (and if so, how far outside, compared to how far the "fear saves only" interpretation does?)
Har har har. But I'll compare prices:+2 Strength belt, 4K.
+2 Constitution belt, 4K.
+2 Headband, 4K.It's actually cheaper to buy stat items than it is the weapon, and that's including Strength/Con belt costs 10K.
However, it's not an either/or proposition. You can benefit from the listed items and the Courageous bonuses. When you start applying the cost differeneces to take those three items, combine them into one item, and then make them slotless, the equation starts changing a lot.
You've got (10,000 x 1.5) for the physical stats + (18,000 x 1.5) for the save x 1.5 for the ability to multiply additional abilities means that that combo is worth closer to 63,000 gp, or over a +5 enhancement bonus.
It only seems underpriced if you ignore the fact that you need a +4 weapon to get the benefit we're arguing about. +2 Furious Courageous still costs as a +4. +4 Courageous is a +5. Funny, that. Seems like you've inadvertently torpedoed your own case.
Hmm...
I wonder... does greater magic weapon actually stack with furious, or does it simply provide a "constant overwrite" effect of the weapon's enhancement bonus?
If the latter... then the greater magic weapon/furious/courageous combo doesn't really work, and courageous simply requires a CL 16+ casting of greater magic weapon to go nuclear.
-Matt
IIRC Greater Magic Weapon has specific text saying it affects nothing but the increase in attack and damage or some such.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It only seems underpriced if you ignore the fact that you need a +4 weapon to get the benefit we're arguing about. +2 Furious Courageous still costs as a +4. +4 Courageous is a +5. Funny, that. Seems like you've inadvertently torpedoed your own case.
Umm, no, because that +4 - +5 cost is just for the abilities and does not include the value of the actual enhancement bonuses to the weapon. When you add in the effective enhancement bonus of +4 - +5 you're looking at a weapon with a total enhancement value of +10 - +11, tip toeing near the line of not being an allowable weapon at all. A +2 Furious Courageous weapon in the hands of a Barbarian is borderlining on being an artifact, and even in the most conservative estimate is giving the benefits of a weapon with a total enhancement bonus of +7.
That being said, I personally am not on either side in this argument, just pointing out that the weapon creation rules would actually indicate that the Courageous property as interpreted by people who think it applies to all morale bonuses (which RAW it does) is waaayyyyy underpriced at a +1 bonus. Under the pricing guidelines, a +1 Courageous weapon should be the equivalent of a +5 - +6 weapon, not a weapon with a total enhancement bonus of +2. A +1 Furious Courageous weapon, effectively a +3, should in fact be a +6 - +7. A +4 Courageous Furious weapon should be close to maxed out, when under the current RAW it actually has room for another +4 worth of enhancements.
I don't think GMW and Furious stack
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think a lot of people here have looked at the RAW and though this can't be right because it is too powerful when combined with a certain other weapon enchantment that only works with a certain class. So they made up their own RAI and want the rest of us to accept that as actual RAW rather than just a houserule.
Whether the PDT will change that if/when they get to this topic's FAQ I can't say. But until they do, no matter how insanely handy it is for a barbarian with a +x courageous furious weapon, the RAW clearly states "any morale bonus the wielder gains from any other source" without any limiting modifiers.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think a lot of people here have looked at the RAW and though this can't be right because it is too powerful when combined with a certain other weapon enchantment that only works with a certain class. So they made up their own RAI and want the rest of us to accept that as actual RAW rather than just a houserule.
Whether the PDT will change that if/when they get to this topic's FAQ I can't say. But until they do, no matter how insanely handy it is for a barbarian with a +x courageous furious weapon, the RAW clearly states "any morale bonus the wielder gains from any other source" without any limiting modifiers.
You can hold to the explicit language argument and be perfectly fine. But you can't pretend that people are making up their own RAI when there is a good reason to believe that this "made up" RAI is actually the Development Team's RAI. Definitive? No, of course not. There hasn't been a FAQ or Errata yet. But acting like they're making this up out of thin air is more than a bit dismissive.
For those suggesting that courageous is only intended to affect morale bonuses to will saves vs fear, I would like to point out that heroism is a required spell to craft the item.
Under the pricing guidelines, a +1 Courageous weapon should be the equivalent of a +5 - +6 weapon, not a weapon with a total enhancement bonus of +2. A +1 Furious Courageous weapon, effectively a +3, should in fact be a +6 - +7. A +4 Courageous Furious weapon should be close to maxed out, when under the current RAW it actually has room for another +4 worth of enhancements.
That's a bit too far. +3 equivalent for what a Courageous weapon does would be very reasonable. And optimizers would still take it (eventually), since it's a rare way of increase hit-points beyond the norm.
So +2 Furious -> +2 Furious, Courageous is 14K gp. Additional benefits provided: +2 Str, +2 Con, +2 attack, +2 damage, +2 Fort/Ref/Will, +2 skill and ability checks. FYI, there is overlap here on a +2 to Will saves from Raging and good hope - important if considering other bonuses instead of good hope.
Ability score bonuses outside of enhancement are quite rare, but there's no need to price this as a Manual of Gainful Exercise +2 (55k). Instead, let's go with a simple x2 (+50% non-enhancement, +50% secondary effect): 8k Strength + 8k Constitution = 16k - already more than the weapon increase.
Attack and Damage bonuses: tough to gauge, but conservatively they would be: +2 atk/dmg (bonus squared), enhancement cost (x 2000gp), not-enhancement + secondary effect (x 2 - +50% twice) = 16k.
Saving throw increases: +2 to all (bonus squared), non-resistance bonus (x 2000 gp), as a secondary effect (x 1.5) = 12k.
Skill bonuses: let's compare with circlet of persuasion - although this is to all skills, the rage prevents a lot of skill usage. +2 skills (bonus squared), all skills (x 500), secondary effect (x 1.5) = 3k.
16k + 16k + 12k + 3k = 47,000 gp.
+2 Furious -> +2 Furious, Courageous as a +3 equivalent: 18k -> 72k, 54k difference. Certainly comparable.
I don't think GMW and Furious stack
They don't, never brought that up personally.
Robert: A few are saying that, but the SKR opinion is that it applies to any saves, not just fear.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Your problem is with furious, not courageous. How overpowered is courageous when you take furious out of the equation?
Edit: All I've seen on this topic so far is arguments akin to the arguments in the past about blood money.
Blood Money + X is overpowered, therefore X is overpowered.
|
|
Under the pricing guidelines, a +1 Courageous weapon should be the equivalent of a +5 - +6 weapon, not a weapon with a total enhancement bonus of +2. A +1 Furious Courageous weapon, effectively a +3, should in fact be a +6 - +7. A +4 Courageous Furious weapon should be close to maxed out, when under the current RAW it actually has room for another +4 worth of enhancements.That's a bit too far. +3 equivalent for what a Courageous weapon does would be very reasonable. And optimizers would still take it (eventually), since it's a rare way of increase hit-points beyond the norm.
** spoiler omitted **...
I'm going right out of the magic item creation guidelines.
Non-resistance save bonuses cost double. Powers which are normally specific to a different slot get a 50% bump. So the equivalent of a +3 non-resistance bonus to Will saves in a non shoulder slot item would be (9 x 2000) x 1.5 or 27000. Enhancement bonuses to stats are (bonus squared x 1000), and you're not actually supposed to be able to get non-enhancement bonuses to stats, but if you use the same formula laid out by saves, it should bump to (bonus squared x 2000). When I did this before I figured it as a +2 bonus to two stats, but if we look at the fact that it actually equates to up to a +3 we've got (9 x 2000) + [(9 x 2000) x 1.5] with the total multiplied by another 1.5 for being slot specific in another slot. That works out to 67500 all on its own. The ability also multiplies all other bonuses though and the formula for a continuous ability is (spell level x caster level x 2000 gp). For a Courageous weapon that's a minimum of 6000 gp (probably should be 16000 minimum since Heroism at its cheapest would be (2 x 4(bard) x 2000).
So if you wanted to really charge full price for the upper end of what the enchantment is worth, you're looking at 110,500. It's fair to call that a class specific benefit though, so a 30% reduction makes it 77350, or about 5350 gp over a +6 weapon. That would mean that for a Barbarian , +4 Furious Courageous weapon, which is currently considered to have a total effective enhancement bonus of +6, is actually functioning as though it were a +11 weapon, so artifact level power. A weapon that could be available as low as 11th level and certainly by 13th is providing the Barbarian with the same bonuses as an artifact level item.
Gmw was brought up as that was the origonsl combo. If it doesn't help curageous then the enchant is strong but not wtfbbq strong.
The premis from the original thread was +1 curageous gauntlet with gmw. He then uses another weapon except for in close aoo and applies all the moral bonuses from curageous. This basically turns it into a wonderius item not a weapon.
|
|
Your problem is with furious, not courageous. How overpowered is courageous when you take furious out of the equation?
Edit: All I've seen on this topic so far is arguments akin to the arguments in the past about blood money.
Blood Money + X is overpowered, therefore X is overpowered.
Furious only raises the cap and availability. A standard weapon capping at +5 still allows Courageous to equate to +2 to a wide variety of items including stats and saves, which makes Courageous still equivalent to a +4 enhancement bonus, instead of the +1 it's listed as. Furious is not the issue in the equation, a Courageous weapon improving all morale bonuses is.
That being said, I've argued before that a class could put out 1000 points of damage a swing and still not be overpowered if it has limited ways to deliver or spread that damage at the levels it comes on line. It's a crazy nice boost for barbarians and certainly breaks the basic guidelines intended for pricing when wielded by one, but it's not going to equate to the Barbarian being any more crazy than a mounted paladin Smiting with Spirited Charge and Litany of Righteousness up.
|
What's so wrong with applying the weapon's property to rage? It is only going to increase STR and CON by 1, which will only bump up their modifier if they have an odd number. Unless they have a +4 enhancement bonus on the weapon, then it will provide +2. Sure, you could apply greater magic weapon to it as a 16th level caster to negate the need to buy a +5 equivalent weapon, but I'm sure you will be able to afford a +5 weapon long before you reach level 16. What am I missing that makes courageous too good? +1 to STR and CON doesn't seem like that big a deal to me for 8,000GP, nor does it seem like a big deal for +2 to STR and CON for 50,000GP.
It is not only a barbarian issue (but getting even a +1 to your strenght can make a difference of 1 point of to hit and 2 points of damage), but the level of synergy that it will get with other morale bonuses. And the interpretation of what wielding mean.
My current playing group has a bard and a inquisitor. both have heroism, both it normally running while adventuring.
It last 10 minutes level and give a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls, saves, and skill checks for 10 minutes/level..
Add courageous and it become a +3, halfway to becoming Greater heroism, but that spell is 3 level higher than heroism and last only 1 minute level.
So with the extensive interpretations of wielding and how courageous work you get the equivalent of a 2 level boost of a spell.
A metamagic rod with a metamagic giving the equivalent of a 2 levels boost to a 2nd/3rd elvel spell cost 9.000 gp and work 3 times a day.
A +1 courageous spiked gauntlet cost 8.000 gp and has other powers.
Our guy is an inquisitor with the destruction domain? A extra +1 to damage when using destructive smite and destructive aura. .
You have a paladin in group? The aura of resolve bonus increase by 1
Bless or Aid? you have doubled the spell effect.
Death ward? Save bonus increased by 1
Good hope? Heroes' feast? Rage? Same
Protection from evil bonus against possession? Same.
Those are only some of the CRB examples and I have purposefully avoided to list a barbarian bonuses.
Each single bonus isn't much, but stacked together they are a lot and worth way more than 8.000 gp.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
But you can say that about buff spells in general. That's how buffs work. Stacked and piled on, they're ridiculously powerful. You're not shifting that dynamic to any appreciable degree, you're just making it from "I hit on a 2" to "I hit on a 2 when somebody debuffs me back to my unbuffed state".
|
|
I suspect that it isn't courageous that people have a problem with. By itself, it isn't a big deal at all. It is combining it with furious that people seem to have a problem with. Take away furious and it doesn't seem that bad at all does it? Furious is a +3 weapon for the price of a +2. Both are good options, but I would not call this combination overpowered.I wonder if the folks complaining about courageous are really just complaining about the awesome power of the greater magic weapon past caster level 16. If you think about it, greater magic weapon is incredibly inexpensive for what it does.
Keep in mind that to get courageous to "go nuclear" on a barbarian, you're looking at either a CL 16+ greater magic weapon or a CL 8+ greater magic weapon plus the furious enchantment.
Now, the question of whether furious should stack with greater magic weapon, that is a good conversation to have.
-Matt
From my point of view is that several of the people that say that the courageous bonus work with everything are the same that say that you only need to have the courageous weapon "ready for use" to satisfy the "wield" part of the rules and then go a step further saying that "ready to use" is satisfied by donning a spiked gauntlets while you are using your falchion.
Yes, the ability text will allow you to apply the bonus to all morale bonus. If I were to GM someone with a weapon with that ability in a PFS game I would have it work that way if the player is convinced it work that way, but I would strictly implement the wield part as explained by SKR, i,.e. I would require you to attack with that weapon.
Outside PFS? It is too strong for the cost. Any decent optimizer will find as many morale based enhancement as possible, so it would be from a +1 to a +3 bonus to 2 abilities, hit, damage, saves, and skill usable in combat. Up and above his other benefits.
This is a barbarian we are talking about they have to save against buffs when raging stacking up all those buff might be hard. (yes not all of them, but the best ones)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
You can hold to the explicit language argument and be perfectly fine. But you can't pretend that people are making up their own RAI when there is a good reason to believe that this "made up" RAI is actually the Development Team's RAI. Definitive? No, of course not. There hasn't been a FAQ or Errata yet. But acting like they're making this up out of thin air is more than a bit dismissive.I think a lot of people here have looked at the RAW and though this can't be right because it is too powerful when combined with a certain other weapon enchantment that only works with a certain class. So they made up their own RAI and want the rest of us to accept that as actual RAW rather than just a houserule.
Whether the PDT will change that if/when they get to this topic's FAQ I can't say. But until they do, no matter how insanely handy it is for a barbarian with a +x courageous furious weapon, the RAW clearly states "any morale bonus the wielder gains from any other source" without any limiting modifiers.
There's certainly room to say that the Dev team intended Courageous to work differently—at the very least I'd be surprised if they realized just how strong the buffed barbarian with a Furious Courageous sword could be. That said, I think Thymus is right that some people are starting with the conclusion that Courageous is overpowered, and then bending over backwards to find a way to twist the RAW to fit that. "This is unbalanced, ergo it cannot be rules-legal."
The thing is, the rules-as-written make absolutely no judgments on balance. One can argue RAI for an unbalanced ability or make a case that the RAW needs to be changed/errataed, but the rules are what they are. When it comes to debating the rules, we have to deal with the Rules As Written, not Rules As They Ought to Be. The latter is where house rules come in (and for the record, a group has every right to house-rule Courageous to be less powerful).
Your problem is with furious, not courageous. How overpowered is courageous when you take furious out of the equation?
This is a good question. I *do* have a problem with furious - but that problem is limited (essentially a free +1 enhancement bonus for barbarians). Courageous has fewer boundaries. There are other ways to 'shenanigan' the enhancement bonus (GMW yes, also bane, magus, paladin, etc.).
However, excluding all those, Courageous would then be equivalent to a +2, As +4 weapon -> +6 = 40k, approximately the amount that Courageous is worth with a +4 enhancement bonus (the value scales up and down all over the place of course).
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think the main problem people are having with the Courageous property is that, unlike 90% of martial options, it actually scales as you level.
It starts off as a negligible benefit, and scales to something actually useful.
This is pretty much unheard of for anything that's not a spell.
|
|
I think the main problem people are having with the Courageous property is that, unlike 90% of martial options, it actually scales as you level.
It starts off as a negligible benefit, and scales to something actually useful.
This is pretty much unheard of for anything that's not a spell.
It's almost reminiscent of the legacy weapons from Book of 9 Swords, although without the resource drain. Scaling also makes it really hard to accurately gauge value. In the hands of a Fighter it's a pretty "meh" ability, and worth about a +1 enhancment bonus. In the hands of a Barbarian it's amazing, and in the hands of a Barbarian in a party with the right buffer and an additional enhancement it's bonkers, far beyond what you can get from any other enhancement.
Honestly, I kind of wish there more scaling weapons in the game, though having only one, especially one like this, is going to create issues. What Barbarian isn't going to pick Courageous over any other weapon property if he has his choice?
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Eh...kind of a loaded question. If we removed all no-brainer choices from the game we'd be left with a bunch of shit.
"What Fighter ISN'T going to take Gloves of Dueling...therefore they need to be nerfed."
"What melee-man ISN'T going to take Power Attack...therefore it needs to be nerfed."
"What Druid ISN'T going to take Natural Spell...therefore it needs to be nerfed."
It's just a bad metric.
|
|
Eh...kind of a loaded question. If we removed all no-brainer choices from the game we'd be left with a bunch of s&@~.
"What Fighter ISN'T going to take Gloves of Dueling...therefore they need to be nerfed."
"What melee-man ISN'T going to take Power Attack...therefore it needs to be nerfed."
"What Druid ISN'T going to take Natural Spell...therefore it needs to be nerfed."
It's just a bad metric.
There are answers to those questions though, and fairly easy ones.
"One who doesn't have Weapon Training. One who went with Gauntlets of the Weaponmaster instead because the party doesn't have a bard. One who needed the hand slot to compensate for an environmental hazard, choosing something like Claws of the Ice Bear or Gauntlet of Rust instead. "
"One who uses Dex or another metric to determine attacks, or relies on non-static mods for damage. Alternatively, one who can't afford the cost because he's got 3/4 BAB and no boosting mechanic."
"A druid who doesn't think casting in animal form is something he really needs to do. A druid who needs the feats for some other tree he's working on. A druid who uses Wildshape as a last resort and generally doesn't have any spells left by the time he uses it. A druid who uses their Wildshape uses to pump a Beaststrike Club (probably a fairly unlikely situation, but who knows? an Impact Beaststrike Club under the effects of bloody claws can be pretty gnarly)."
The only answer for the Barbarian is "One who doesn't Rage". The others are really good options. Courageous for the Barbarian is the hands down best option, and there's never any reason to pick something else instead.
You know what I meant. No big 2H Greatsword user is ever going to roll without Power Attack and still be optimal.
No casting Druid is going to roll without Natural Spell.
Combat-wise no real Fighter is going to go without the Gloves of Dueling.
These are all build equivalents. Simply because the build is "most variants of this class" rather than "Any class that follows this theme" (such as with Power Attack) doesn't make it a different principle.
"What Fighter ISN'T going to take Gloves of Dueling...therefore
be nerfed."
Therefore the game should have better glove so the gloves of dueling are not a no-brainer"
The game should not have non-options like that (*cough*superstitious + beast totems *cough* )
Har har har. But I'll compare prices:+2 Strength belt, 4K.
+2 Constitution belt, 4K.
+2 Headband, 4K.It's actually cheaper to buy stat items than it is the weapon, and that's including Strength/Con belt costs 10K.
However, it's not an either/or proposition. You can benefit from the listed items and the Courageous bonuses. When you start applying the cost differeneces to take those three items, combine them into one item, and then make them slotless, the equation starts changing a lot.
You've got (10,000 x 1.5) for the physical stats + (18,000 x 1.5) for the save x 1.5 for the ability to multiply additional abilities means that that combo is worth closer to 63,000 gp, or over a +5 enhancement bonus.Does this fall outside of the general tolerances of item pricing (and if so, how far outside, compared to how far the "fear saves only" interpretation does?)
edit: (also, eyeballing your numbers makes me want to double check them, but I am going into work in a few minutes - will do when home. Are you correctly managing your slot related price multipliers?).
Okay, back home.
So I think you double, or possibly triple dipped the 1.5x multiple different abilities modifier and did not apply the .7x modifier for requiring a specific class ability (rage) to get said bonuses (as you note below).
Is the first something else, or what? I see you taking a price for a +2/+2 stat belt that already does include the 1.5x modifier (10k = 4k+(4k*1.5)), multiplying it by 1.5 again, and then multiplying the whole price by 1.5 a third time at the end of the equation. Why three times? Why is the saves bonus multiplied by 1.5 twice?
I'd like to also point out that you are talking about an item that provides static bonuses and doesn't require any resource expenditure to function such as action economy, spells, rounds of rage etc.
Also, what's with the greater magic weapon argument? The world isn't crawling with 16th level casters. Even in a metropolis you would be hard pressed to find one, so that rules out easily buying scrolls of it for 1,200GP each. Not sure why Magus is relevant as this seems to be focused around Barbarians. Bane would accomplish the same thing as furious, but wouldn't be as convenient.
|
|
You're right, I multiplied by 1.5 once for being an additional different ability and once for being slot-specific when those both fell under the same multiplier. It should have been multilpied by 1.5 for being an additional and slot specific ability.
Accounting for its ability to give up to +3 in bonuses, it should have been: save boost - (9 x 2000) + stat boost- [(9 x 2000) x 1.5] + other automatic spell boosting effect [(2 x 4(bard) x 2000) x 1.5], for 69,000. With a .7 mod for being class specific that puts it at 48300. Still much closer to a +5 enhancement than a +4, and nowhere near a +1.
You're right, I multiplied by 1.5 once for being an additional different ability and once for being slot-specific when those both fell under the same multiplier. It should have been multilpied by 1.5 for being an additional and slot specific ability.
Accounting for its ability to give up to +3 in bonuses, it should have been: save boost - (9 x 2000) + stat boost- [(9 x 2000) x 1.5] + other automatic spell boosting effect [(2 x 4(bard) x 2000) x 1.5], for 69,000. With a .7 mod for being class specific that puts it at 48300. Still much closer to a +5 enhancement than a +4, and nowhere near a +1.
You do realize it requires +5 weapon to get the +2 bonuses right? Courageous by it's little +1 enhancement bonus self does not give you up to +3 saves. It requires you invest money. And that 48,300 looks pretty reasonable next to a +5 weapon which costs 50,000. Oh hey, a +4 Courageous Weapon would cost 50,000 GP... very close to 48,300. So I don't see your point. Unless your point was that Courageous is well priced for what it does.
You're right, I multiplied by 1.5 once for being an additional different ability and once for being slot-specific when those both fell under the same multiplier. It should have been multilpied by 1.5 for being an additional and slot specific ability.
Accounting for its ability to give up to +3 in bonuses, it should have been: save boost - (9 x 2000) + stat boost- [(9 x 2000) x 1.5] + other automatic spell boosting effect [(2 x 4(bard) x 2000) x 1.5], for 69,000. With a .7 mod for being class specific that puts it at 48300. Still much closer to a +5 enhancement than a +4, and nowhere near a +1.
Hm.
In order to get the bonuses you calculate with, you are going from at minimum a +4 furious weapon to a +4 furious courageous weapon.
Thus the price difference is 50,000 to 72,000 = 22k, or cheaper than a wondrous item based result by roughly 2 times. If it were priced at the +5 you suggest it would be 50,000 to 200,000, or +150k, which your math suggests is more expensive than it ought by four times. Current pricing is actually closer to your math results than your suggested enhancement value is.
If you're assuming a high base enhancement item to generate your modifiers, then calculate the cost to apply a +x equivalent enhancement to *that* item.
If anything, this particular data point suggests a +2 equivalent for courageous. Not +1 nor +5.
You're right, I multiplied by 1.5 once for being an additional different ability and once for being slot-specific when those both fell under the same multiplier. It should have been multilpied by 1.5 for being an additional and slot specific ability.
Accounting for its ability to give up to +3 in bonuses, it should have been: save boost - (9 x 2000) + stat boost- [(9 x 2000) x 1.5] + other automatic spell boosting effect [(2 x 4(bard) x 2000) x 1.5], for 69,000. With a .7 mod for being class specific that puts it at 48300. Still much closer to a +5 enhancement than a +4, and nowhere near a +1.
Hm.
In order to get the bonuses you calculate with, you are going from at minimum a +4 furious weapon to a +4 furious courageous weapon.
Thus the price difference is 50,000 to 72,000 = 22k, or cheaper than a wondrous item based result by roughly 2 times. If it were priced at the +5 you suggest it would be impossible, a +4 would 50,000 to 200,000, or +150k, which your math suggests is more expensive than it ought by four times. Current pricing is actually closer to your math results than your suggested enhancement value is.
If you're assuming a high base enhancement item to generate your modifiers, then calculate the cost to apply a +x equivalent enhancement to *that* item.
If anything, this particular data point suggests a +2 equivalent for courageous. Not +1 nor +5.
Courageous is +1 appropriate, because it requires you to invest more then +1 bonus in gold to get any benefit out of the second clause. It also then further requires you to have a morale bonus (though this is taken into account in the above math). What isn't taken into account though is the additional enhancement bonuses required to get anything out of the second line at all.
You're right, I multiplied by 1.5 once for being an additional different ability and once for being slot-specific when those both fell under the same multiplier. It should have been multilpied by 1.5 for being an additional and slot specific ability.
Accounting for its ability to give up to +3 in bonuses, it should have been: save boost - (9 x 2000) + stat boost- [(9 x 2000) x 1.5] + other automatic spell boosting effect [(2 x 4(bard) x 2000) x 1.5], for 69,000. With a .7 mod for being class specific that puts it at 48300. Still much closer to a +5 enhancement than a +4, and nowhere near a +1.
Hm.
In order to get the bonuses you calculate with, you are going from at minimum a +4 furious weapon to a +4 furious courageous weapon.
Thus the price difference is 50,000 to 72,000 = 22k, or cheaper than a wondrous item based result by roughly 2 times. If it were priced at the +5 you suggest it would be 50,000 to 200,000, or +150k, which your math suggests is more expensive than it ought by four times. Current pricing is actually closer to your math results than your suggested enhancement value is.
If you're assuming a high base enhancement item to generate your modifiers, then calculate the cost to apply a +x equivalent enhancement to *that* item.
If anything, this particular data point suggests a +2 equivalent for courageous. Not +1 nor +5.
Now for part 2 ("limiting it to a fear-only bonus fixes an issue with unreasonable pricing"), we can deploy the same sort of analysis.
Remove Fear is a 1st level spell. It's ten minutes duration is nonstandard (bah) so we'll round down to minutes/level for eyeballing purposes. It gives the same +4 bonus against fear that a +4 courageous weapon under the new interpretation would.
The half enhancement bonus to other morale bonuses when you're rolling against fear would be relatively meaningless under this version, since morale bonuses don't stack with one another. If someone casts heroism on you and then you roll vs fear, your weapon might increase the bonus from 2 to 4, but it doesn't stack with the 4 you already had.
1x1x2000x2 = 4,000 gp for a permanent wondrous item granting the same bonus as the +4 courageous weapon under the reading of Majuba et al.
Adding courageous to a +4 weapon costs 32k -> 50k = 18k. More expensive by a factor of ~4, which is less than the factor of ~2 noted above.
Tentative conclusion: the alternate reading leads to a weapon enhancement further from calculated pricing benchmarks than the original.
Har har har. But I'll compare prices:+2 Strength belt, 4K.
+2 Constitution belt, 4K.
+2 Headband, 4K.It's actually cheaper to buy stat items than it is the weapon, and that's including Strength/Con belt costs 10K.
However, it's not an either/or proposition. You can benefit from the listed items and the Courageous bonuses. When you start applying the cost differeneces to take those three items, combine them into one item, and then make them slotless, the equation starts changing a lot.
You've got (10,000 x 1.5) for the physical stats + (18,000 x 1.5) for the save x 1.5 for the ability to multiply additional abilities means that that combo is worth closer to 63,000 gp, or over a +5 enhancement bonus.**EDIT** I'm actually probably shorting the formula as well. Since the tables only give estimates for ability bonuses of the enhancement type, we should probably be multiplying the 10k for the STR/CON bonuses by 2 instead of 1.5, which would actually put us at 70,500, just shy of +6 range.
I never said you couldn't, or that it wasn't. Of course they stack, because they are separate entities, but it's quite obvious you're overlooking the situation. There's a couple factors you're forgetting: PC Wealth, and other items.
PC WBL is only so much. In the lower levels, you're looking at a PC spending all of his money, tops, to get a +1 Furious Courageous weapon.
In addition, what about his armor? Or a shield? What about stat enhancing belts, useful potions, etc.? If he's sending all of his money to his weapon, he's either getting a little help from his party members covering his overexcession of funds (which, isn't wrong for a party to do, but isn't something one accounts for in WBL; the same is also true for a party member with a craft feat crafting items for their party members. But I am rambling.)
Or the more believable conclusion is that he's gimping himself in other areas, several of those areas, of which, cut off several accesses to this supposed "overpowered" status.
I'll also point out that by the time he gets an effective +4 weapon (minimum) for this to become a supposed "major problem," it will either still be a major cutoff for his funds, reducing his other item availability, or it will be at a point to where the encounter results are determined by the results of initiative with the min-maxing spellcasters, in which case the benefits of the Martial employing the Courageous Weapon of Doom and Sadness are pointless, since by the time Mr. Martial can accomplish something, Mr. Spellcaster would have already trivialized/beaten the encounter.
I mean come on, there are boots that allow you to always land on your feet for falling, take minimum fall damage, and negate difficult terrain penalties for movement. All for the cost of 3,500 gold (1,750 to craft). There are several low cost/great effect items out there, and the Courageous property is simply one of the fold.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think there is a fair point to be made that, if we're debating balance instead of the rules, then Courageous only applying to fear effects makes it very unimpressive as a weapon property. It pretty much turns the courageous property into something people just skip over while looking for the good stuff.